Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/15 23:17, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > Note a number of people don't like the word "disposal", > and persist in tagging toilets:type instead, with the same data. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! Use as a value rather than a key is more of a problem. ACCESS to the facility is a secondary matter. And I can give you examples where a disposal point will serve both boat and caravan traffic. The facility is a disposal point, rather than a 'waterway disposal point' and and I would be happy with the current few 'elsan' values in tags if that is how they are designated on the ground, with a separate generic amenity tag. This is perhaps where a waterways map would only support waterway activities, while a general map would link into the adjacent usage. What is needed however is consistency to using 'amenity' or some other key, or defining a key on it's own which is where the toilets:disposal is the most popular usage. In waterway terms, disposal of grey_water may well be separate to disposal of chemical toilet waste, so waste_disposal with the correct values may be a more generic solution to the problem. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Lester Caine wrote: > > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump > Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of > 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! The tagging numbers are skewed because I tediously edited every odd variant I could find, mostly outside of Europe. Those included: name=RV Dump (with other tags) name=RV Dump Station (with no other tags) amenity=dump_station amenity=dump-station amenity=dumpstation amenity=dump amenity=RV Dump amenity=fuel;dump station;convenience highway=service + service=dumpstation shop=fuel;dump station;convenience shop=fuel;services=dump station;mini-mart;propane leisure=caravan_site + note=Motorhome dump station recycling=dump-station recycling=waste_basket + note=RV Dump Station recycling=waste_basket + waste=excrement. amenity=waste_disposal + waste=excrement (which variously meant pump-out, dog_bin, and dump station). tourism=caravan_site + note=Dumping place tourism=information + description=RV dump man_made=wastewater_plant + tag=Motorhome dumping station amenity=dump (mostly refers to garbage dumps, but a few were RV holding tank emptying spots). The term "toilets:disposal" was something I coined a few years back for walk-up toilets.: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of the UK. -- Apparently some people care a lot what the name of the tag is. I am not among those people. I care that the feature has rational tagging, as to attract enough interested from the osm-carto maintainers to actually render it: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466 This feature is glaringly missing from campground and canal maps rendered with OSM data. Monolithic tagging matching the desire of richardwest would be fine with me: *amenity=elsan_point* *amenity=pump-out* *amenity=rv_dump_station* *waterway=elsan_point* *waterway=pump-out* Plus the same for "toilets" "drinking_water", and "fuel" (in particular waterway=fuel). In that scheme, *waterway=elsan_point* + *amenity=elsan_point* is a sensible combination. Access tags are need to cover the case of facilities available only to overnight guests, since that case is so common. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 17:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside > of the UK. "chemical toilet waste disposal unit" is the more normal UK usage, along with grey and black waste water disposal, be that marine or land. Dump stations would seem to be American, although the Ozies seem to switch between the two. Dump station DOES seem to be specifically for hooking up RV and other vehicle pump out hoses and NOT for the safe disposal of chemical toilet waste. The two are rather different facilities! As I said ... if a point is still marked on the ground as an 'Elsan Point' then I would expect to maintain that name, but I'm not happy with the way a generic alternative is being developed. I don't have time to monitor the 'tagging' list ... I'll just carry on following local practice and sanitary_dump_station does not fit the bill, but I'm not sure just what is a suitable alternative to correctly tag the facilities I've got survey notes on for our local caravan sites ... what would have been legal as an elsan_point in the past would probably be shut down by the local council today anyway! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
To summarize: Nobody likes to talk about waste, so euphemisms abound. Past tagging has been all over the map, and the same tags were used in Europe for dog_waste bins as well as motorhome dump points. - The basic styles of holding tank station seem to be: - elsan point (walk up dumping basin)(also called a CDP) - round drain (gravity drain hose : 3" in diameter in the USA) - pump-out (mechanical suction). Accepting: - Gray water (usually) - Bilge water (rarely) - Black water (usually) - Black water but not gray water (occasionally) Prohibiting: - Certain tank chemicals Offering at the same location: - Rinse water which may not be potable. - Drinking water (amenity=water_point). - Drinking water (amenity=drinking_water). - Walk up toilets. Access Rules: - From water or land, or in a few cases both. - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump with coins or cards, or pay at the office. - Part of regional network or not (card key, payment card). - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone. Position may be: - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often) - Located on a separate dock. - Located on land, even it only serves marine users. - Located at each camping pitch. - Located at a central location, with varying degrees of accessibility by large boats or motorhomes (often). - Unknown (many RV and Marina sites list dump services on their websites, but the exact location does not appear on the brochure or map)(often). - Associated with a walk up toilet, or not. Rendered by: - Opensea map, and nothing else prominent. - Marine fuel, and amenity=water_point are very similar. - A "chemical toilet" is something completely different in the USA. A"porta potty" is a walk up toilet in the USA. German facilities sport about a dozen designs of coin pay stations incorporating a CDP and round drain into one unit, and sometimes a pumpout, water point, and rinse hose for good measure. - So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone? ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 21:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: > So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so > a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone? Well the starting point there is a proper database of information which can be accessed via the phone. It would have a lot more information than I would anticipate adding to the tagging on OSM! But that is a different problem. I could make an argument for this being part of tag:waste_disposal as that is an integral part of the clear out of both boat and RV/van but I think that this is better, and might become a base for solid waste/recycling at a later date. The access to both would probably be identical tag -> disposal_point Values pump_out:grey (No sewage) pump_out:black(Contains Sewage) pump_out:bilge(May contain oil) pump_out:restricted (note advise restrictions) dump:black(may have restrictions?) chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal) chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility) chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?) Access clients_only (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients) public_free (council provided facility?) public_fee:rates (see debate in Oz about lack of public facilities even if they paid for access) LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles Payment methods or private access also expand the data. Location is dependent on how one is mapping. A CDP may be inside the toilet and shower block which is the case in good UK sites, in it's own room normally, so may be tagged on the building. Some RV/caravan sites may have dump points adjacent to a pitch, which will also provide mains electric, TV, broadband, and water hookup. Adding icons for all of those is impractical, which is why I say the smartphone would get that information from the pitch booking facility, but communal fill up points would be tagged. However none of that is part of the disposal icon? amenity=drinking_water - lacks an indication if it can be used for fillup amenity=water_point - lacks the 'potable' tagging waterway=water_point- HAS been dropped in favour of the amenity entry so why should disposal be different? It is interesting that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumpout was rejected because it was 'only for boats' or very strangely 'recycling'. I suppose we could hook the black waste direct into the bio-digester ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > It is interesting that > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumpout was > rejected because it was 'only for boats' or very strangely 'recycling'. > I suppose we could hook the black waste direct into the bio-digester ;) The fact is it only takes a few people shouting *no* to scuttle perfectly good ways forward. -- For your disposal_point tag to meet the use case I see, it needs the connection type. It does me no good to arrive at a dump:black if my motorhome has a gravity drain and the receiving basin is 1 meter off the ground. Meanwhile I will make sure my tagging is ready for your future mechanical edit. Dump point mappnig* outside of **OSM *generally catalogs the connection type, fee, access, and availability of fresh water, ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb