Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[David Woolley]

On 03/05/18 17:53, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

I would use a node where the van stops, tagged with
amenity="post_office", name="Over Mobile Post Office Service",



That seems to break the name is only the name rule.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Colin Smale]

Are these additional services legally obliged, or are they offered as a
result of a commercial agreement? 

Perhaps designation=uk_post_office may be a useful addition to indicate
that the legally-obliged services are available at this location. Some
services are only available at what used to be called "Crown Post
Offices", so designation=uk_crown_post_office could be used here. 

The other stuff, like currency exchange, is almost certainly a
commercial agreement, with no obligation on a particular post office to
offer this service. In this case I would add currency_exchange=yes for
example, so one can see where it is, and is not, available. 

This would separate the legally required functions (including buying a
stamp etc) from the "options". 

Colin

On 2018-05-03 12:14, Philip Barnes wrote:

> I would avoid using amenity=post_office for anything other than a proper post 
> office.
> 
> The term post office is much more than a place to send parcels or letters.
> 
> In the UK a post office offers
> Banking services
> I can tax my car
> I can apply for a passport
> I can collect my pension
> Exchange currency 
> Probably lots of other things that I've not thought of. 
> 
> Whilst post depot is useful for collecting things that an individual has 
> ordered, sending stuff by courier is a business service. DHL will not be 
> interested in sending my Christmas cards and certainly not for the price 
> Royal mail charges. 
> 
> Phil (trigpoint) 
> 
> On 3 May 2018 10:45:57 BST, Michael Collinson  wrote: 
> 
> At the risk of being pedantic, but would a "network" tag, similar to bus 
> routes, not be more appropriate? 
> 
> Here in Sweden, the post office system is now Post Nord, network=Post Nord, 
> but post offices are frequently inside and operated by supermarkets, e.g. 
> operator=ICA. These outlets often handle DHL and other services that might 
> also be considered as postal networks, network=Post Nord;DHL 
> 
> Mike 
> On 2018-05-03 11:15, Brian Prangle wrote: 
> 
> Hi Robert
> If an operator tag is added to post_office tags then your comparison tool 
> would be OK
> Regards
> Brian 
> 
> On 3 May 2018 at 10:08, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
>  wrote:
> On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley  wrote:
>> On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery office be
>>> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice that
>>> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't seem to be
>>> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I got it
>>> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
>> 
>> I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the answer was
>> amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in principle, different
>> from Hermes or TNT.
> 
> That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for tagging
> customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
> amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
> stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution centres
> I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
> choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300 are in
> the UK.
> 
> The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
> branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got some
> heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
> operator, and brand tagging. See:
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol [1]
> 
> Robert.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Whittaker
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 3 May 2018 at 14:02, Andy G Wood  wrote:
> I know one of the unmapped post offices is still "open" in my village
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/branch/110053
> however, it is basically a mobile van that turns up on the village green for
> some hours a few days a week.  How can this be mapped?

I would use a node where the van stops, tagged with
amenity="post_office", name="Over Mobile Post Office Service",
ref:pol_id="110053" and opening_hours="Mo,Th,Fr 09:30-12:30; We
09:30-11:00" (assuming they're correct). The name tag should give map
users a clue that it may not be open all the time during normal
working hours, and the opening_hours tag will let data users who look
know exactly when they'll find a Post Office there.

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Andy G Wood]

Hi Robert,

> There's still a lot to do though. In particular, there are around 3800
> branches in the official list that are not currently mapped in OSM,
> and around 1000 amenity=post_office objects that correspond to
> branches that are probably now closed. How may of these can we survey
> and fix in the next two months?

I know one of the unmapped post offices is still "open" in my village
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/branch/110053
however, it is basically a mobile van that turns up on the village green for 
some hours a few days a week.  How can this be mapped?

Andy.




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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Mark Goodge]

On 03/05/2018 11:25, SK53 wrote:
Can we please avoid changing the meaning of post office by extending it 
to courier offices, and restrict it to those places which offer not only 
a full service mail offering (aka Universal Postal Service), but the 
traditional other services available at post offices (some banking, 
government forms, etc). Extending the meaning of the tag would make OSM 
data immediately intrinsically less useful in cities where courier 
offices exist. Such a change would a) require every post office to be 
suitably tagged with an indication of which service it belongs to; and 
b) require every data consumer to change.


I agree. "Post Office" has a specific legal meaning in the UK, and 
applying the tag to things that are not actually Post Offices would be 
confusing at the very least.


I think it would be helpful to have a suitable tag for things like 
Amazon lockers and Hermes drop-off points. But they're not Post Offices. 
They're not even close to being Post Offices. They fulfil a different 
role, and need to be identified as such.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[SK53]

Can we please avoid changing the meaning of post office by extending it to
courier offices, and restrict it to those places which offer not only a
full service mail offering (aka Universal Postal Service), but the
traditional other services available at post offices (some banking,
government forms, etc). Extending the meaning of the tag would make OSM
data immediately intrinsically less useful in cities where courier offices
exist. Such a change would a) require every post office to be suitably
tagged with an indication of which service it belongs to; and b) require
every data consumer to change.

At the very least discuss this on the tagging mailing list: such a change
in meaning for a widely used tag needs to be treated with caution and
consensus in more than just the UK.

Jerry



On 3 May 2018 at 10:08, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley  wrote:
> > On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
> >>
> >> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery office be
> >> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice that
> >> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't seem to be
> >> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I got it
> >> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
> >
> > I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the answer was
> > amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in principle,
> different
> > from Hermes or TNT.
>
> That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for tagging
> customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
> amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
> stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution centres
> I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
> choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300 are in
> the UK.
>
> The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
> branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got some
> heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
> operator, and brand tagging. See:
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Philip Barnes]

I would avoid using amenity=post_office for anything other than a proper post 
office.

The term post office is much more than a place to send parcels or letters.

In the UK a post office offers
Banking services
I can tax my car
I can apply for a passport
I can collect my pension
Exchange currency 
Probably lots of other things that I've not thought of. 

Whilst post depot is useful for collecting things that an individual has 
ordered, sending stuff by courier is a business service. DHL will not be 
interested in sending my Christmas cards and certainly not for the price Royal 
mail charges. 

Phil (trigpoint) 




On 3 May 2018 10:45:57 BST, Michael Collinson  wrote:
>At the risk of being pedantic, but would a "network" tag, similar to
>bus 
>routes, not be more appropriate?
>
>Here in Sweden, the post office system is now Post Nord, network=Post 
>Nord, but post offices are frequently inside and operated by 
>supermarkets, e.g. operator=ICA. These outlets often handle DHL and 
>other services that might also be considered as postal networks, 
>network=Post Nord;DHL
>
>Mike
>
>
>On 2018-05-03 11:15, Brian Prangle wrote:
>> Hi Robert
>>
>> If an operator tag is added to post_office tags then your comparison 
>> tool would be OK
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On 3 May 2018 at 10:08, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley > > wrote:
>> > On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery
>office be
>> >> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice
>that
>> >> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't
>> seem to be
>> >> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I
>> got it
>> >> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
>> >
>> > I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the
>> answer was
>> > amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in
>> principle, different
>> > from Hermes or TNT.
>>
>> That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for
>tagging
>> customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
>> amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
>> stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution
>centres
>> I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
>> choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300
>are in
>> the UK.
>>
>> The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
>> branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got
>some
>> heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
>> operator, and brand tagging. See:
>>
>http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol
>>
>
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>> -- 
>> Robert Whittaker
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Michael Collinson]

At the risk of being pedantic, but would a "network" tag, similar to bus 
routes, not be more appropriate?


Here in Sweden, the post office system is now Post Nord, network=Post 
Nord, but post offices are frequently inside and operated by 
supermarkets, e.g. operator=ICA. These outlets often handle DHL and 
other services that might also be considered as postal networks, 
network=Post Nord;DHL


Mike


On 2018-05-03 11:15, Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi Robert

If an operator tag is added to post_office tags then your comparison 
tool would be OK


Regards

Brian

On 3 May 2018 at 10:08, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
> wrote:


On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley > wrote:
> On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
>>
>> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery office be
>> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice that
>> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't
seem to be
>> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I
got it
>> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
>
> I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the
answer was
> amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in
principle, different
> from Hermes or TNT.

That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for tagging
customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution centres
I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300 are in
the UK.

The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got some
heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
operator, and brand tagging. See:
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol


Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Robert

If an operator tag is added to post_office tags then your comparison tool
would be OK

Regards

Brian

On 3 May 2018 at 10:08, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley  wrote:
> > On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
> >>
> >> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery office be
> >> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice that
> >> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't seem to be
> >> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I got it
> >> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
> >
> > I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the answer was
> > amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in principle,
> different
> > from Hermes or TNT.
>
> That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for tagging
> customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
> amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
> stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution centres
> I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
> choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300 are in
> the UK.
>
> The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
> branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got some
> heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
> operator, and brand tagging. See:
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK Quarterly Project: Post Offices

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 2 May 2018 at 19:08, David Woolley  wrote:
> On 02/05/18 18:52, ael wrote:
>>
>> I am confused:-)  How should a Royal mail local delivery office be
>> tagged? It seems that it is not amenity=post_office. I notice that
>> I have used post_depot once some time ago, but that doesn't seem to be
>> in the wiki (or in the presets for josm). Yet I am sure that I got it
>> from somewhere. Not that it seems very natural.
>
> I'm fairly sure this came up a couple of months ago and the answer was
> amenity=post_depot; operator=Royal Mail.  It's not, in principle, different
> from Hermes or TNT.

That's certainly what I'd use. I think there's a good case for tagging
customer-facing shop-like outlets of courier firms as
amenity=post_office since they're places from which you can send
stuff. But for the large warehouse-style sorting/distribution centres
I think something else is needed. amenity=post_depot seems a good
choice to me. It has over 400 uses worldwide, of which over 300 are in
the UK.

The legitimate use of amenity=post_office for non-Post Office Ltd
branches creates a slight issue for my comparison tool. I've got some
heuristics to account for some sets of objects based on name,
operator, and brand tagging. See:
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postoffice/osm-unmatched.html#non-pol

Robert.

-- 
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