Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Tim Waters]

At first look I thought this was a once-hedge, a hedge that's been left to
itself. But each tree is equally spaced, looks the same age, doesn't seem
pollarded or coppiced as what you might expect a tree in a hedge to be, and
so I don't think that's the case now.  So to my mind now, it's a fence,
with individual mappable trees.

A hedge implies a barrier of kinds.



On 26 August 2018 at 20:35, Martin Wynne  wrote:

> Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For example, is
> this:
>
>  https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542
>
> a) a fence,
>
> b) a hedge,
>
> c) a very narrow wood,
>
> d) all three at the same time?
>
> Is the area in front of it
>
> a) grass,
>
> b) highway,
>
> c) both?
>
> (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.)
>
> Often a wood adjoins an open area such as a water meadow. If there is a
> fence between them, the boundary is clear, even if the wood canopy overlaps
> into the meadow. If there isn't a fence, where do you put the boundary? The
> edge of the canopy? The line of tree trunks? Some imaginary line between
> the two?
>
> Some trees are very large and their branches can extend a significant
> distance - across a river for example.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[me]

On 29/08/18 21:21, Jubal Harpster wrote:

Rosneath Castle Caravan Park

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92291906

https://goo.gl/maps/5zn1EEXwYER2

https://binged.it/2BCrYOr



OSM has the name on the actual caravan park, which sounds more likely:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/114942183


When I looked at this, this my feeling was that this looks like a 
private road to the Caravan Park and therefore is very unlikely to have 
a name.


Also, there has been quite a but a local activity in the area and it 
would be very unlikely that that they would have completely missed this 
if wrong.


Finally I check the council road list and this road isn't listed which 
means that it's unmaintained and increasing the likely hood that it will 
be unnamed.


The caravan site is interesting, from it's website it's probably 
Rosneath Castle Park (without the Caravan) - originally mapped by 
Central America who is based in Edinburgh, it would need a survey to see 
how it's actually signposted.


Cheers
Chris 



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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[Mark Goodge]

On 30/08/2018 17:40, Ed Loach wrote:
I missed the start of this thread as I was away, but there are some 
unnamed roads in England with houses on that just have a postal address 
in the format


house name, hamlet name, parish name, postal town


I grew up in one that was even more minimal, it was just

house number, hamlet, post town

It was incredibly confusing to visitors, as the hamlet was nowhere near 
the post town. So we inserted "near [parish name]" as the second line, 
when giving the address. But even then it didn't stop delivery drivers 
doing a tour of half the county before finding us :-)


This is actually a problem for OSM, as the address tags don't allow for 
a house number to be attached to anything other than a street name. But, 
in rural areas, it can often be a hamlet name.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

[Dudley Ibbett]

According to a horse riding friend this would most commonly be known as a 
“mounting block” in UK.

It seems people are more likely to need to them to get on a horse rather than 
off.

The only recent occasion I have seen them on a bridleway was a new dedicated 
bridleway bridge (not much wider than a foot bridge) over a railway line.  I 
suspect it was stipulated by the planning authority for safety reasons.

Dudley




From: Tim Waters 
Sent: 30 August 2018 15:03
To: Warin
Cc: OSM - Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

Wikipedia calls them "mounting blocks" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounting_block
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Duke_of_Wellington%27s_Mounting_Block%2C_Athenaeum_Club%2C_London.jpg/1200px-Duke_of_Wellington%27s_Mounting_Block%2C_Athenaeum_Club%2C_London.jpg]

Mounting block - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
A mounting block, horse block, or in Scots a loupin'-on stane is an assistance 
for mounting and dismounting a horse or cart, especially for women, the young, 
the elderly or the infirm.



I spotted a new ish concrete one the other day which had an official looking 
"horse riders may mount here" sign above it, but I don't think those signs are 
in the HM Sign Manual.  I prefer "mount" to "dismount" and it might reflect the 
intended purpose of it, it's easier to fall off than climb on the beasts!

Going back to the wikipedia page, these block steps are not only horse 
specific, but could have been used to get into carts and buggies, too.


Tim


On 28 August 2018 at 01:32, Warin 
<61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27/08/18 23:28, Andy Townsend wrote:
On 27/08/18 13:32, Edward Catmur wrote:
amenity=horse_dismount_block has 4 occurrences, all in the north of England.

I think I'm responsible for half of those - happy to pick a different tag if 
someone's got a better idea!

There are actually a selection of tags used for this sort of thing:

--

-- Horse mounting blocks
--

   if (( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["bridleway"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["historic"]  == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_step") or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_steps"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "horse_dismount_block" )) then
  keyvalues["man_made"] = "mounting_block"
   end

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L2211

all very low usage.

horse=* is used as an access thing .. so I'd not encourage its use for other 
things.
e.g. there exists horse=dismount .. I think that means the rider must get off 
the horse to proceed .. an access condition, not a facility to assist 
dismounting.

I'll raise it on the tagging list and see what they come up with.
My personal preference at the moment is for man_made=mounting_steps. But that 
is just me.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Some leisure=track not rendering

[jc...@mail.com]

Thanks Dave

Evidently this is a long-standing issue - 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2632 - though I 
could have sworn the racecourse was visible earlier this month.

Converting my local tracks to multipolygon relations probably makes more sense 
anyway because they are loop-shaped.

Jez C
 
 
On 29/08/2018 17:11, Dave F wrote:
Hi
Hmm.. strange. Note Cycle Map does still render

Check here:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v4.10.0...v4.13.0

Raise a query here:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues[https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues]

Cheers
DaveF

On 28/08/2018 18:48, jc...@mail.com wrote:
> Has there been a recent change to the standard rendering for leisure=track? A 
> racecourse and a cycle track near me mapped as closed ways are no longer 
> showing. However another nearby track mapped as a multipolygon is unaffected.
>
> Jez C
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[Ed Loach]

I missed the start of this thread as I was away, but there are some unnamed 
roads in England with houses on that just have a postal address in the format

house name, hamlet name, parish name, postal town

or at least there is the one where I commented on this note:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1390266

for this way

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26465561

 

Ed

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Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland

[Adam Snape]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 22:26 Martin Wynne,  wrote:

>
> > Even in these days of Brexit, I don't think there's any movement for
> > Northern Ireland to leave GB.  You've been misinformed!
>
> Hi Toby,
>
> Northern Ireland is part of the UK but it's not part of GB.
>
> GB is England, Scotland and Wales.
>
> The official title of this country is "The United Kingdom of Great
> Britain and Northern Ireland".
>
> regards,
>
> Martin.
>
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Referring to Great Britain that's entirely correct. However as a country
code, GB is often used to refer to the whole UK, egs. Car plates, Team GB,
and, of course this very list Talk-GB which very definitely does include NI.

Fwiw, I don't think it's unreasonable to request that the discussion of NI
specific issues is done separately from the discussion of a non-NI
changeset. Nor does the fact that someone took umbrage at that request
necessarily mean that the request itself was insensitive.

Regards,

Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

[Tim Waters]

Wikipedia calls them "mounting blocks"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounting_block

I spotted a new ish concrete one the other day which had an official
looking "horse riders may mount here" sign above it, but I don't think
those signs are in the HM Sign Manual.  I prefer "mount" to "dismount" and
it might reflect the intended purpose of it, it's easier to fall off than
climb on the beasts!

Going back to the wikipedia page, these block steps are not only horse
specific, but could have been used to get into carts and buggies, too.


Tim


On 28 August 2018 at 01:32, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27/08/18 23:28, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
>> On 27/08/18 13:32, Edward Catmur wrote:
>>
>>> amenity=horse_dismount_block has 4 occurrences, all in the north of
>>> England.
>>>
>>
>> I think I'm responsible for half of those - happy to pick a different tag
>> if someone's got a better idea!
>>
>> There are actually a selection of tags used for this sort of thing:
>>
>> --
>> 
>> 
>> -- Horse mounting blocks
>> --
>> 
>> 
>>if (( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_block"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["bridleway"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["historic"]  == "mounting_block"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting block"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_step") or
>>( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_steps"   ) or
>>( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "horse_dismount_block" )) then
>>   keyvalues["man_made"] = "mounting_block"
>>end
>>
>> https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/
>> master/style.lua#L2211
>>
>> all very low usage.
>>
>
> horse=* is used as an access thing .. so I'd not encourage its use for
> other things.
> e.g. there exists horse=dismount .. I think that means the rider must get
> off the horse to proceed .. an access condition, not a facility to assist
> dismounting.
>
> I'll raise it on the tagging list and see what they come up with.
> My personal preference at the moment is for man_made=mounting_steps. But
> that is just me.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[SK53]

A few general points:

* Google certainly uses OS Open Data for street names in the UK. I
corrected a few a while back via the OSGB feeback and they then filtered
through to Google Maps. In one case the GSV clearly showed the correct name
on the road sign.
* The first couple of examples provided by the MS team look like mobile
home parks/caravan sites. In these cases, as with many industrial estates,
the name most likely does not really belong on the road, and they should be
mapped using addr:place.
* Any potential comparison with PAF-derived data may be awkward from both
OSM's T and those of the Royal Mail. (see discussions of Land Registy
Prices Paid data *inter alia*).
* OS Open Data is a good source of roads which actually have names. I think
the error rate is much lower than when the data was first released in 2010:
at least in part because we have provided feedback. (The most common
significant issue was incorrect position of road name changes).

Jerry


On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 at 11:06, Simon Poole  wrote:

> PS: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48658548 in the example actually
> does have a sign and may be an exception or simply an error on behalf of
> the municipality.
>
> Am 30.08.2018 um 11:58 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> I can't speak specifically for the UK, but in general I would not consider
> google of any use at all for determining if a road has a name or not.
>
> Wit for example https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.7958402,10.2534831,18z Not
> a single of those "named-in-google" streets actually has a name.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 29.08.2018 um 22:21 schrieb Jubal Harpster:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>
>
> Our Open Maps team (https://github.com/microsoft/open-maps) has been
> taking a closer look at OSM in the UK.  Some of you may have seen my
> session in Milan where we talked about Microsoft’s ongoing OSM work in
> Australia.
>
>
>
> We found a few examples of roads missing names that we could use some
> local help with. There does not appear to be an official name for the
> examples below and we’re trying to figure out if they came from a local
> source, ground survey or something else entirely.
>
>
>
> *Road Name*
>
> *OSM*
>
> *Google*
>
> *Bing*
>
> Coach road estate
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67494787
>
> *https://goo.gl/maps/PQXATz4iNMQ2 *
>
> *https://binged.it/2o1mF1v *
>
> Rosneath Castle Caravan Park
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92291906
>
> *https://goo.gl/maps/5zn1EEXwYER2 *
>
> *https://binged.it/2BCrYOr *
>
> Merville Garden Village
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/139461452
>
> *https://goo.gl/maps/YdH5HCvhTqK2 *
>
> *https://binged.it/2BCq9Rx *
>
> Stadium Mews
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/260127900
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/JJNxamCgLy12
>
> *https://binged.it/2C0LAw1 *
>
>
>
> These are not major roads but they are associated with a large number of
> residential addresses so any help understanding the source of the road
> names would be helpful.
>
>
>
> Thank You
>
> -Jubal
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jharpster
>
> https://github.com/jharpster
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[Simon Poole]

PS: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48658548 in the example actually
does have a sign and may be an exception or simply an error on behalf of
the municipality.


Am 30.08.2018 um 11:58 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> I can't speak specifically for the UK, but in general I would not
> consider google of any use at all for determining if a road has a name
> or not.
>
> Wit for example https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.7958402,10.2534831,18z
> Not a single of those "named-in-google" streets actually has a name.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 29.08.2018 um 22:21 schrieb Jubal Harpster:
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Our Open Maps team (https://github.com/microsoft/open-maps) has been
>> taking a closer look at OSM in the UK.  Some of you may have seen my
>> session in Milan where we talked about Microsoft’s ongoing OSM work
>> inAustralia.
>>
>>  
>>
>> We found a few examples of roads missing names that we could use some
>> local help with. There does not appear to be an official name for the
>> examples below and we’re trying to figure out if they came from a
>> local source, ground survey or something else entirely.
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Road Name*
>>
>>  
>>
>> *OSM*
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Google*
>>
>>  
>>
>> *Bing*
>>
>> Coach road estate
>>
>>  
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67494787
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://goo.gl/maps/PQXATz4iNMQ2_
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://binged.it/2o1mF1v_
>>
>> Rosneath Castle Caravan Park
>>
>>  
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92291906
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://goo.gl/maps/5zn1EEXwYER2_
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://binged.it/2BCrYOr_
>>
>> Merville Garden Village
>>
>>  
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/139461452
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://goo.gl/maps/YdH5HCvhTqK2_
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://binged.it/2BCq9Rx_
>>
>> Stadium Mews
>>
>>  
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/260127900
>>
>>  
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/JJNxamCgLy12
>>
>>  
>>
>> _https://binged.it/2C0LAw1_
>>
>>  
>>
>> These are not major roads but they are associated with a large number
>> of residential addresses so any help understanding the source of the
>> road names would be helpful.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Thank You
>>
>> -Jubal
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jharpster
>>
>> https://github.com/jharpster
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[Simon Poole]

I can't speak specifically for the UK, but in general I would not
consider google of any use at all for determining if a road has a name
or not.

Wit for example https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.7958402,10.2534831,18z
Not a single of those "named-in-google" streets actually has a name.

Simon


Am 29.08.2018 um 22:21 schrieb Jubal Harpster:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>  
>
> Our Open Maps team (https://github.com/microsoft/open-maps) has been
> taking a closer look at OSM in the UK.  Some of you may have seen my
> session in Milan where we talked about Microsoft’s ongoing OSM work
> inAustralia.
>
>  
>
> We found a few examples of roads missing names that we could use some
> local help with. There does not appear to be an official name for the
> examples below and we’re trying to figure out if they came from a
> local source, ground survey or something else entirely.
>
>  
>
> *Road Name*
>
>   
>
> *OSM*
>
>   
>
> *Google*
>
>   
>
> *Bing*
>
> Coach road estate
>
>   
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67494787
>
>   
>
> _https://goo.gl/maps/PQXATz4iNMQ2_
>
>   
>
> _https://binged.it/2o1mF1v_
>
> Rosneath Castle Caravan Park
>
>   
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92291906
>
>   
>
> _https://goo.gl/maps/5zn1EEXwYER2_
>
>   
>
> _https://binged.it/2BCrYOr_
>
> Merville Garden Village
>
>   
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/139461452
>
>   
>
> _https://goo.gl/maps/YdH5HCvhTqK2_
>
>   
>
> _https://binged.it/2BCq9Rx_
>
> Stadium Mews
>
>   
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/260127900
>
>   
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/JJNxamCgLy12
>
>   
>
> _https://binged.it/2C0LAw1_
>
>  
>
> These are not major roads but they are associated with a large number
> of residential addresses so any help understanding the source of the
> road names would be helpful.
>
>  
>
> Thank You
>
> -Jubal
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jharpster
>
> https://github.com/jharpster
>
>  
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] un-named roads in UK

[Jez Nicholson]

Although...(note to Jubal)...OSMers in the UK do not use the Royal Mail
(the Postcode Address File or PAF) file as a source of address information.
Lester may have used it to further corroborate a name held in OSM. See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_2017_Q4_Project:_Addresses_and_Postcodes
for
some info.

BTW, A warm welcome to Jubal and the Microsoft Open Maps team. Talk-GB
involves detail-oriented but generally well-meant discussions.

Regards,
 Jez

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 at 23:22 Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 29/08/18 21:21, Jubal Harpster wrote:
> > Stadium Mews
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/260127900
> >
> > https://goo.gl/maps/JJNxamCgLy12
> >
> > _https://binged.it/2C0LAw1_
>
> PAF file ... N5 1FP
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Road refs

[Colin Smale]

All "ref" values are relative to some authority who is responsible for
maintaining the list. The "A1" in ref=A1 is not unique unless you
specify that (for example) the UK Department for Transport issued that
value. A C-number is still a valid ref, but the maintainer of the list
is a local council. Even within the UK there are duplicates by the way -
Northern Ireland has its own set of road numbers which often duplicate
numbers in GB. So we can't say that a plain "ref=*" is nationally unique
either. 

Assuming the formal definition of "ref" is "the value in some
administration" and not "the value on the sign", the proper fix is to
change all ref=* to ref:XXX=* where XXX represents the issuing
authority. Alternatively keep ref=* and add authority:ref=XXX. Using
source:ref is no good because that represents how you found out, and may
be something like source:ref=sign.

If we define "ref" as "the value on the sign" it should be
"signed_road_number" or something, not "ref" as this implies a
referential relationship with some other entity. 

On 2018-08-30 01:57, Dave F wrote:

> On 29/08/2018 20:32, Toby Speight wrote: 
> 
>> I consider it a "niche" that wants them hidden.
> 
> The vast, vast majority are hidden on the ground.
> 
>> I don't see
>> that we have to mis-tag them all to have them hidden - I can see it
>> would be useful to have a map with less clutter, but it shouldn't be
>> hard to do that without having to mangle the underlying OSM database!
> 
> Separating tags isn't "mangling" It makes the database more detailed & 
> accurate.
> 
> How would you propose to do it?
> 
>> Yes, I appreciate that if the highways_authority_ref were documented and
>> somehow agreed to be correct, then for mkgmap it would be a simple
>> matter of "add ref ${highways_authority_ref};" near the beginning; it
>> would be a bit harder to get a workable tag template for Merkaartor, but
>> tools like KeepRight and Geofabrik QA aren't so easily adjusted, and
>> unlikely to adopt new tagging until it's at least documented.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this is poppycock. All data users should have ability to 
> responded to changes in the database. The tail does not wag the dog.
> 
> DaveF
> 
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