Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[ael via Talk-GB]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 10:54:54PM +, ael via Talk-GB wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote:
> > On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:
> > 
> > something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the area:highway
> > tag:
> > 
> >  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway
> > 
> > Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a planned
> > walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will be safe to
> > walk along.
> 
> 
> What might work in practice is to invent a tag along the lines
> of walker_friendly = yes|no|maybe although some may complain that it
> is subjective. I am not seriously suggesting that "walker_friendly"
> is a good choice for a name, but something along those lines is
> the only thing that I think the majority of mappers could reasonably
> use widely.

Following up on myself, I see a problem when faced with a narrow lane
which is barely used by traffic. Normally very safe for walkers. But
occasionally unsafe when an vehicle decides to use it at high speed.
If someone had actually tagged the area, that might be inferred. But
that is extremely unlikely.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[ael via Talk-GB]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote:
> On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:
> 
> something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the area:highway
> tag:
> 
>  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway
> 
> Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a planned
> walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will be safe to
> walk along.

The trouble with this is that someone has to map those areas. I map
a fair few country lanes, but I can seldom estimate their width, let
alone an accurate area. I do try to record any pavements or paths
("sidewalk = left|right|both", yuk): that is precisely with walkers in
mind. I very much appreciate your point, but how is the mapping
on-the-ground to be done? Even when there is properly aligned high
resolution imagery, that is not going to work under tree cover which is very
common, of course.


What might work in practice is to invent a tag along the lines
of walker_friendly = yes|no|maybe although some may complain that it
is subjective. I am not seriously suggesting that "walker_friendly"
is a good choice for a name, but something along those lines is
the only thing that I think the majority of mappers could reasonably
use widely.

ael


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[Talk-GB] Map styles and rendering various things (was: Re: driveway-becomes-track)

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/12/2020 21:11, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:

That allows maps such as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 
to display it as a public bridleway (in blue)




Hi Andy,

That's a great map! It seems you have already done what I would be 
interested in doing - to provide a better map for walkers and others 
showing footpaths, stiles and gates, etc. much more prominently.


What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker 
would find that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of 
the awful Google maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever 
uses it?


Well I use it :)

More seriously, it was designed more a s proof of concept map style than 
anything else - an answer to some people saying "it is not possible to 
do X in a map style".  If you leave aside the whole "presenting 
advertising to the viewer" and "data collection from the user" parts of 
Google Maps there are still things that it does that people would want 
"a map" to do, not least:


 * being able to search for things
 * being able to get directions to things via various modes of transport
 * being able to work offline (a little bit, in the case of Google Maps)

There are fully-fledged offline map apps out there that use OSM data - 
OsmAnd and MAPS.ME are a couple that spring to mind.  See also 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Android#OpenStreetMap_applications 
and 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Apple_iOS#OpenStreetMap_applications 
.  OsmAnd in particular offers a huge number of map styles (and can be 
customised too, although I wouldn't describe the process as "easy").





One thing I would ask for is more prominent rendering of benches. They 
appear only at maximum zoom on the OSM standard map, and only as a 
very small symbol. I don't suppose younger OSM mappers roam the 
countryside looking for somewhere to sit and eat their lunch, but at 
72 years of age I do (cheese & pickle sandwich and a hard-boiled egg, 
since you ask)!


At the risk of stating the obvious you can find things like this using 
Overpass as a front-end for the main OSM site - for example, 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/118H will find you benches in a certain area.


https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=17=52.452965=-0.55873 
shows benches a couple of zoom levels lower than the standard map, but 
the icon is still (deliberately) fairly small.




Something I feel strongly about, and would be a prime motivation for 
doing something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the 
area:highway tag:


 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway



You want something like 
https://osmapa.pl/#lat=52.24738=20.98893=19=os for that...


If you look at the underlying data needed to support that, it's pretty 
complex though.




Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a 
planned walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will 
be safe to walk along. Sometimes there are wide verges, but sometimes 
high banks or close hedges with nowhere to leap to out of the way of 
approaching traffic. It's necessary to look on Google Streetview 
before setting out, but not all country roads are covered. At present 
even apps which do render it (I believe OsmAnd) can't do much because 
it is not commonly mapped between the hedgerows along country roads. 
Legally the entire area between the property boundaries on each side 
is the public highway.


https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=13=54.0689=-0.9323 
shows verges (and "sidewalks" i.e. pavements)


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 12/12/2020 21:30, David Woolley wrote:



Your first problem would be establishing a funding model for it; OSM, in 
general, is not funded to a level that would support large scale end 
user use.




Hi David,

Small-scale end use would be a start. But folks need to find it in the 
first place.


Andy obviously already has some hosting on a server, and I do too. So 
funding for small-scale use would not be a problem.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[David Woolley]

On 12/12/2020 21:11, Martin Wynne wrote:
What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would 
find that map, 


Your first problem would be establishing a funding model for it; OSM, in 
general, is not funded to a level that would support large scale end 
user use.


> or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful

Google maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it?


Google maps, as used in phones, are vector maps, with the rendering done 
in the phone itself


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:

That allows maps such as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 
to display it as a public bridleway (in blue)




Hi Andy,

That's a great map! It seems you have already done what I would be 
interested in doing - to provide a better map for walkers and others 
showing footpaths, stiles and gates, etc. much more prominently.


What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would 
find that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful 
Google maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it?


One thing I would ask for is more prominent rendering of benches. They 
appear only at maximum zoom on the OSM standard map, and only as a very 
small symbol. I don't suppose younger OSM mappers roam the countryside 
looking for somewhere to sit and eat their lunch, but at 72 years of age 
I do (cheese & pickle sandwich and a hard-boiled egg, since you ask)!


Something I feel strongly about, and would be a prime motivation for 
doing something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the 
area:highway tag:


 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway

Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a 
planned walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will 
be safe to walk along. Sometimes there are wide verges, but sometimes 
high banks or close hedges with nowhere to leap to out of the way of 
approaching traffic. It's necessary to look on Google Streetview before 
setting out, but not all country roads are covered. At present even apps 
which do render it (I believe OsmAnd) can't do much because it is not 
commonly mapped between the hedgerows along country roads. Legally the 
entire area between the property boundaries on each side is the public 
highway.


Having recently been very nearly taken out by a van while walking 
(legally!) along an A road, it's an omission I want to do something about.


Local highway authorities are required by law to provide a "Public 
Footpath" sign where a public footpath joins a road. But they are not 
required to provide any safe means of reaching it.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/12/2020 19:47, Nick wrote:

Hi Andy

Yes I understand the tag that has been used (i.e. designation) 
although I was suggesting the tag "Bridleway", the question that 
Martin posed was that "at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown", so 
the work around in this case might be to make a way with feature type 
= Bridleway?



Hi Nick,

"highway=bridleway" is in use, and is used to mean something designed 
for horses to use.  In rural areas that might coincide with something 
that also has the legal "designation=public_bridleway", but sometimes 
not - farmers may add "permissive bridleways" through their fields to 
allow access as an existing horse route.


From the description given, I don't think this is an actual bridleway 
as such (see the picture at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway ), and so I 
don't think it would make sense to map it in OSM as a "highway=bridleway".


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

Hi Andy

Yes I understand the tag that has been used (i.e. designation) although 
I was suggesting the tag "Bridleway", the question that Martin posed was 
that "at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown", so the work around in 
this case might be to make a way with feature type = Bridleway?


Cheers

Nick

On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 12/12/2020 13:59, Nick wrote:


I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. 
Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 
'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely 
that would solve the problem?



Hi Nick,

Yes that is pretty much what is already happening here.  One of the 
ways here https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has a tag on it 
"designation=public_bridleway".  That describes the legal status of 
"bridleway" (rather than what it actually looks like on the ground).  
That allows maps such as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 
to display it as a public bridleway (in blue)


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/12/2020 13:59, Nick wrote:


I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. 
Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 
'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely 
that would solve the problem?



Hi Nick,

Yes that is pretty much what is already happening here.  One of the ways 
here https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has a tag on it 
"designation=public_bridleway".  That describes the legal status of 
"bridleway" (rather than what it actually looks like on the ground).  
That allows maps such as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 
to display it as a public bridleway (in blue)


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/12/2020 14:30, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:



Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. 
Perhaps that someone is you?


Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, 
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory 
space and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, 
possibly by hosting something from OSM.


\o/





>  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
> standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
> (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
> logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
> 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 




Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ 
but I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff 
for the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces 
only for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in 
by now.


To be honest, I still struggle with the OSM Carto stuff too. That's why 
the logic stuff behind https://map.atownsend.org.uk is in lua as much as 
possible, such as at 
https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L537 
.  Even if there are lots of brackets, at least they line up.  All the 
OSM Carto stuff has to do is do something with a highway value of 
"ucrnarrow" (which of course never exists in OSM).


If you get stuck either ask here or on IRC or at help.osm.org.  The 
"serving tiles"guides are designed to be able to be followed without any 
programming expertise (especially the Docker one).  Also see 
https://ircama.github.io/osm-carto-tutorials/ - there's a lot of useful 
stuff there too.





Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the 
cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm 
buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:


 https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg

It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. 
If I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded 
tagging for the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the 
world "track" means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.


This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more 
than a "track" - note the double gates:


 https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8


To be honest, there will always be edge cases where it's difficult to 
say where the OSM tag should change, or even what OSM tag would be best 
to start with.   I can think of plenty of places that are 50/50 
agricultural track and service road or driveway, and plenty more that 
are 30/70 or 70/30 etc.  Ultimately we've just got to pick the best tags 
we can, and sometimes there will be odd effects as here.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:



Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. 
Perhaps that someone is you?


Hi Andy,

Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, 
Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space 
and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly 
by hosting something from OSM.



>  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
> standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
> (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
> logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
> 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 




Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but 
I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for 
the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only 
for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.


I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of 
creating my own map does appeal to me.


Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the 
cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm 
buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:


 https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg

It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If 
I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for 
the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" 
means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.


This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more 
than a "track" - note the double gates:


 https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

Hi Martin

I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. 
Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 
'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely that 
would solve the problem?


Nick

On 12/12/2020 13:41, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote:
For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as 
a 'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the 
designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the 
driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume 
the change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private 
driveway could be contested by the landowner?




Hi Nick,

I'm not clear what you are saying there?

The driveway is a public bridleway which subsequently passes through a 
farmyard. The farmer has provided a permissive by-pass footpath for 
walkers to avoid the farmyard.


The driveway has been broken into 3 sections and given separate 
pro-ref numbers (not by me).


cheers,

Martin.


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 12/12/2020 13:16, Mark Goodge wrote:
Out in a rural area, nearly everybody would call that length 
of road, especially one that links a public highway with private farm 
tracks, a track or access road.


Hi Mark,

I'm not sure about that. In this part of the world, a roadway which 
links from a public road to a private residence is called a "drive" (not 
usually "driveway") irrespective of the length, or what other tracks or 
footpaths connect to it, and also irrespective of its legal status as a 
public byway or public bridleway.


If it's a public highway for all, it's just called a "road" or "lane".

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 
'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the 
designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway 
seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change 
made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could 
be contested by the landowner?


On 12/12/2020 12:44, Martin Wynne wrote:

p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly:

 https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote:
For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 
'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the 
designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway 
seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change 
made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could 
be contested by the landowner?




Hi Nick,

I'm not clear what you are saying there?

The driveway is a public bridleway which subsequently passes through a 
farmyard. The farmer has provided a permissive by-pass footpath for 
walkers to avoid the farmyard.


The driveway has been broken into 3 sections and given separate pro-ref 
numbers (not by me).


cheers,

Martin.


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[David Woolley]

On 12/12/2020 13:20, Nick wrote:

Would changing this to Tag:highway=bridleway be a starting point?



I think the OP was saying there is a separate bridleway, almost parallel 
to the feature in question.


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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Nick]

Would changing this to Tag:highway=bridleway be a starting point?

On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote:
For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 
'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the 
designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the 
driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the 
change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private 
driveway could be contested by the landowner?


On 12/12/2020 12:44, Martin Wynne wrote:

p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly:

 https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Yes, however the reasoning for this is that sometimes someone has drawn every 
single driveway on a street in a city/town. 
Rendering this at low zoom levels would clutter the map. By contrast, tracks 
are often much more sparsely populated, so they don't clutter the map.

I don't know what the solution to this would be, however.
IpswichMapper-- 


12 Dec 2020, 12:34 by mar...@templot.com:

> A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track 
> beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms.
>
> On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But tracks and 
> footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways are usually 
> wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks.
>
> The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start in the 
> middle of nowhere.
>
> An example of that is at:
>
>  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320
>
> What is the process for getting something done about this?
>
> thanks,
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Mark Goodge]

On 12/12/2020 12:34, Martin Wynne wrote:
A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track 
beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms.


On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But 
tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways 
are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks.


The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start 
in the middle of nowhere.


An example of that is at:

  https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320

What is the process for getting something done about this?


I wouldn't tag that as a driveway. I'd tag it as a track or a service 
road. That's not tagging for the renderer, it's tagging according to 
common usage. A driveway, these days, at least in the UK, generally 
means a short section of off-street parking attached to an urban 
dwelling. Out in a rural area, nearly everybody would call that length 
of road, especially one that links a public highway with private farm 
tracks, a track or access road.


The wiki seems to agree with me in this scenario, saying that "It is 
rare for a driveway to be the way to access another roadway". If it is 
the access to another roadway extending beyond it (eg, a farm track) 
then it's not a driveway, it's an access road and should be tagged 
accordingly.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/12/2020 12:34, Martin Wynne wrote:
A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a 
track beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on 
farms.


On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But 
tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that 
driveways are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm 
tracks.


The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start 
in the middle of nowhere.


An example of that is at:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320

What is the process for getting something done about this?

It's only a problem with one particular map rendering (other maps such 
as https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/52.2892/-2.4360=C look 
sensible), so you'd need to raise that with that map rendering.  In the 
case of the map that you are talking about, that would be 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto .  If you look 
through the issues list there you'll see that this problem has been 
discussed before, and (for the reasons that ipswichmapper has already 
mentioned, it hasn't been fixed because it's a hard problem to solve.


Once a problem has been reported and is already known about (as is the 
case here) someone would need to figure out a way to solve the problem.  
There are a few possibilities:  One is to "only suppress urban driveways 
not rural ones", which would require that somehow the map can tell 
whether a location is "urban" or "rural".  Another might be to "not 
suppress driveways that have other tags".  In your case 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has foot, horse and bicycle 
tags that could potentially help here.  Any technical solution would 
still need to convince the volunteers that maintain this map style that 
the change is a "good idea", and would not cause more serious knock-on 
problems elsewhere.


Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.  
Perhaps that someone is you?  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the 
standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ 
(just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the 
logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 
.


If you think "that someone is really _not_ me" then you can still use 
another map, and can make sure that all appropriate tags are added to 
things so that other maps can use them.  I certainly owe some thanks to 
that area's mappers as 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 
(which shows designations and PRoW refs) is all filled in there.


Best Regards,

Andy



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[Talk-GB] Publishing a linked dataset

[Martin - CycleStreets]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently looking at a dataset with a view to it being published, that 
defines a set of routes (various streets and paths), not physically marked 
on the ground, i.e. they are subjective rather than objective. The aim is 
to publish this as a dataset that then other people using OSM could then 
easily use in routing engines to favour the specific paths. In other words, 
have some way of referencing the preferred ways easily, avoiding the need 
for any kind of GIS-based map-matching.


The data is currently just an overlay manually drawn over a digital map 
background, but the underlying map hasn't actually been used in any way to 
decide on the network or check things back home. There are no IP issues in 
my view - it's just a set of route preferences. The lines can be redrawn 
from scratch if necessary.


Do people have any tips on how best to create and maintained a linked 
dataset?


I've been considering a few options:

- Load all the data in the area in QGIS using a Geofabrik extract, and 
manually remove everything that isn't relevant, leaving the desired network 
only, from which the OSM IDs can be extracted


- Use some kind of QGIS process to match the locations with some kind of 
key/value filtering, with some kind of 10-20m buffer.


Do people think it's better to publish a list of OSM IDs or as GeoJSON, 
which would obviously contain the IDs but also have the benefit of visually 
showing the routes?


I'm aware obviously the data could become unmatched over time, as OSM 
changes, e.g. a way is split or paths added that add more detail.



Martin, **  CycleStreets - For Cyclists, By Cyclists
Developer, CycleStreets **  https://www.cyclestreets.net/

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Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly:

 https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png

Martin.

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[Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

[Martin Wynne]

A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track 
beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms.


On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But 
tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways 
are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks.


The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start 
in the middle of nowhere.


An example of that is at:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320

What is the process for getting something done about this?

thanks,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

[Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB]

Hello Seán,

Thanks for that, sounds a great idea! Would be a great addition to any UK 
countryside map once you have opened your API.

Nick


From: Seán Lynch 
Sent: 11 December 2020 21:03
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: Andy Townsend ; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 

Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server

Hi all,

As people enjoy their walk, we would love if you could consider uploading any 
plastic / litter data into OpenLitterMap

Right now the only way to add data is using our platform, but we will open our 
API hopefully next year and allow uploads from other developers.


github.com/openlittermap

TeamLitterUK is currently in 1st place globally for uploading the most data

Litter mapping has a remarkably low barrier to entry, allowing for potentially 
many more people to get involved with data collection and mapping

Cheers,

Seán

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 15:05, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Hello Andy,

Thanks for this.

My own feeling regarding what server we need is "start small, to get it going" 
and then as soon as OSMUK can commit to funding (*if* they can, of course) 
and/or several people share the cost, then scale up. Hetzner's model is very 
flexible in this regard, for instance I started with an 8GB RAM VM before I 
found it wasn't quite adequate for my needs and upgraded the same VM to the 
16GB version (and added some disc space, I think, too). For now I am willing to 
spend a small amount (below EUR/GBP 5) for a month or two to get things going 
if there's sufficient interest.

I'd broadly agree to an extent about going the Mapnik route although I would 
prefer another person with more experience in the niceties of current Mapnik 
stylesheet development to do large-scale tweaks;  I would be happy to do small​ 
tweaks on such things as, for example, making designations appear in a similar 
style to Landranger which might be an idea for familiarity purposes. On the 
other hand, vector rendering would have some advantages for the aims of this 
project - an interactive map of the countryside in which POIs and paths can be 
clicked to add/retrieve information. I believe Tangram can do this quite 
easily; I have dabbled in Tangram and it's quite easy to setup a simple 
stylesheet though haven't tried it with anything complex. Tangram also has some 
nice things like being able to be rendered in both isometric and (via A-Frame 
components, https://aframe.io) even in 3D. I have to admit having a personal 
like for the vector approach,   it shifts more processing onto the client, good 
in a world where standard client hardware, desktop and mobile, is pretty 
powerful while powerful server hardware is expensive.

I wouldn't personally be so fussed about things like minutely updates until it 
becomes a 'production' map, while in development mode I think the best approach 
is to keep it simple and cheap to run. In terms of my own projects I do quite 
rigorous filtering of the OSM data before populating the DB, to reject things 
mostly of interest to urban areas which only use up space and resources in a 
walking-oriented map. Another way of keeping initial costs down would be to 
concentrate on one or a few counties, ideally well-mapped ones with many ROWs, 
hills, water features etc.

So I'd be quite happy - if​ there's interest - to setup a cheaper Hetzner 
server for now. If we want to go the mapnik route I'd be happy to do a basic 
setup there as well, as in, get mod_tile working and use your style unmodified. 
My main personal contribution to the project would be to work on the server- 
and client-side scripting necessary to develop an interactive POI map. We'd 
also of course need people with strong web design and UX skills - alas, mine 
are not so great!

As for other points - things like https cert renewal seem easy with Let's 
Encrypt; have been using that succesfully for a while now.

Nick



Nick Whitelegg
Senior Lecturer in Computing (Internet)  | School of Media Arts and Technology
Southampton Solent University  | RM424 | East Park Terrace | Southampton SO14 
0YN
T: 023 8201 3075 | E: 
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk | W: 
solent.ac.uk

Disclaimer

From: Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 11 December 2020 13:40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Idea - OSMUK walkers' map application -- -& server



On 11/12/2020 09:59, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote:

In the early stages I think we could run it on cheap hosting hardware, like 
most projects in the OSM ecosystem. I suspect for a while usage would be light 
and limited to those in the OSM community. I use Hetzner for my hosting 
(OpenTrailView,