Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 13:56, Russ Garrett wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 13:20, Andy Townsend wrote: > > Quite a lot of stuff of the placename info on OS StreetView probably > > _shouldn't_ be in OSM. Leaving aside farm and house names, the where I > > used to live in Derbyshire is according to OS StreetView composed of 5 > > different "villages". It's actually either 1 or 2, depending on who you > > ask. It's probably less of an issue in London (less space for > > extraneous names), though. > > I have noticed a few cases, especially in areas of London I know very > well, where OS shows an archaic name which isn't really in general > use. This gets a bit tricky because there's not really a way of > signalling to other mappers that a place name isn't in use based on > local knowledge. Obviously local knowledge is best here but we > probably don't have mappers with good local knowledge of all the > various corners of London, and I'm pretty sure that there are areas of > London where the area names have never been adequately mapped (which > is why I started this thread). So I'm not sure how best to solve that > conundrum. > > Out of date names might show up less in addr:? Of course then you need full addresses rather than street, number and "leave it to the algo". ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 13:20, Andy Townsend wrote: > Quite a lot of stuff of the placename info on OS StreetView probably > _shouldn't_ be in OSM. Leaving aside farm and house names, the where I > used to live in Derbyshire is according to OS StreetView composed of 5 > different "villages". It's actually either 1 or 2, depending on who you > ask. It's probably less of an issue in London (less space for > extraneous names), though. I have noticed a few cases, especially in areas of London I know very well, where OS shows an archaic name which isn't really in general use. This gets a bit tricky because there's not really a way of signalling to other mappers that a place name isn't in use based on local knowledge. Obviously local knowledge is best here but we probably don't have mappers with good local knowledge of all the various corners of London, and I'm pretty sure that there are areas of London where the area names have never been adequately mapped (which is why I started this thread). So I'm not sure how best to solve that conundrum. Cheers, -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 12:51, Michael Booth wrote: > It seems like a number of those hamlets could be changed to something else. > > Also worth having a look at place=locality nodes, to see if they can be > tagged as another place type (if it's a populated place - e.g. > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4678882808) or the name added to a > feature. Yeah, I excluded locality from that search for the moment as I was more concerned with the higher-level place names, but I should take a look at those at some point too. I reckon that "village" and "hamlet" probably shouldn't be present in London, except in the few legitimately rural areas of outer London. (A lot of those hamlets are definitely wrong and I plan to go through them at some point.) Russ -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
Just to pick up on one point: On 23/06/2020 22:30, Russ Garrett wrote: * The presence of a few archaic place names which were presumably derived from NPE or other historic maps but are generally out of use now. * A surprisingly large number of place names present in OS StreetView are unmapped on OSM. Quite a lot of stuff of the placename info on OS StreetView probably _shouldn't_ be in OSM. Leaving aside farm and house names, the where I used to live in Derbyshire is according to OS StreetView composed of 5 different "villages". It's actually either 1 or 2, depending on who you ask. It's probably less of an issue in London (less space for extraneous names), though. Best Regards, Andy PS: Don't get me started on https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=poultry houses :) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
It seems like a number of those hamlets could be changed to something else. Also worth having a look at place=locality nodes, to see if they can be tagged as another place type (if it's a populated place - e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4678882808) or the name added to a feature. On 23/06/2020 22:30, Russ Garrett wrote: Hi folks, By way of lockdown procrastination, I started looking at place nodes in London. The main things which were annoying me are: * The presence of a few archaic place names which were presumably derived from NPE or other historic maps but are generally out of use now. * A surprisingly large number of place names present in OS StreetView are unmapped on OSM. * Most places in London are tagged as place=suburb, regardless of their size/importance. This issue especially is annoying me quite a lot now I've started noticing it. I started demoting some place=suburbs to place=quarter, and promoting one or two of them to place=town (as this seems to be almost universally used as the next level up from suburb in London), when it was pointed out that it's probably worth discussing this. These place tags are quite subjective, especially because they frequently get used for reasons which don't really tie in with their name, and wiki is pretty vague about their definition, so I don't think we can avoid some level of tagging for the renderer here. I think it would be useful to document which of these tags we want to use in London, and ideally some kind of heuristic for where to use them. I've generated a list of all place nodes within Greater London and the City, by type: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ru/London_Place_Nodes Cheers, ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 09:19, Jez Nicholson wrote: > I take it that these names are used by Nominatim to assist with search. I > know it's another form of tagging-for-the-renderer, but do you know > how/whether changes affect it? I'm not especially familiar with the internals of Nominatim but I think for most purposes it actually prefers the page rank on Wikipedia (discovered via the wikidata tag if provided) for ranking place nodes, rather than the actual value of the place tag (which makes sense as the usage tends to be inconsistent anyway). https://nominatim.org/release-docs/develop/develop/Ranking -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
I take it that these names are used by Nominatim to assist with search. I know it's another form of tagging-for-the-renderer, but do you know how/whether changes affect it? On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 10:31 PM Russ Garrett wrote: > Hi folks, > > By way of lockdown procrastination, I started looking at place nodes > in London. The main things which were annoying me are: > > * The presence of a few archaic place names which were presumably > derived from NPE or other historic maps but are generally out of use > now. > * A surprisingly large number of place names present in OS StreetView > are unmapped on OSM. > * Most places in London are tagged as place=suburb, regardless of > their size/importance. This issue especially is annoying me quite a > lot now I've started noticing it. > > I started demoting some place=suburbs to place=quarter, and promoting > one or two of them to place=town (as this seems to be almost > universally used as the next level up from suburb in London), when it > was pointed out that it's probably worth discussing this. > > These place tags are quite subjective, especially because they > frequently get used for reasons which don't really tie in with their > name, and wiki is pretty vague about their definition, so I don't > think we can avoid some level of tagging for the renderer here. > > I think it would be useful to document which of these tags we want to > use in London, and ideally some kind of heuristic for where to use > them. > > I've generated a list of all place nodes within Greater London and the > City, by type: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ru/London_Place_Nodes > > Cheers, > > -- > Russ Garrett > r...@garrett.co.uk > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Documenting tagging practice for place nodes in London
Hi folks, By way of lockdown procrastination, I started looking at place nodes in London. The main things which were annoying me are: * The presence of a few archaic place names which were presumably derived from NPE or other historic maps but are generally out of use now. * A surprisingly large number of place names present in OS StreetView are unmapped on OSM. * Most places in London are tagged as place=suburb, regardless of their size/importance. This issue especially is annoying me quite a lot now I've started noticing it. I started demoting some place=suburbs to place=quarter, and promoting one or two of them to place=town (as this seems to be almost universally used as the next level up from suburb in London), when it was pointed out that it's probably worth discussing this. These place tags are quite subjective, especially because they frequently get used for reasons which don't really tie in with their name, and wiki is pretty vague about their definition, so I don't think we can avoid some level of tagging for the renderer here. I think it would be useful to document which of these tags we want to use in London, and ideally some kind of heuristic for where to use them. I've generated a list of all place nodes within Greater London and the City, by type: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ru/London_Place_Nodes Cheers, -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
