Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

I have given the site a face lift:

http://toolserver.org/~timsc/locateservices/

Is there anyone interesting in testing a beta on a different data set? I 
would supply the code and help to try to get it imported. Basic HTML 
would be good but not necessary. They would also need somewhere to host 
it (with PHP enabled) - like the OSM dev server.


Regarding importing with clashes against nearby shops, I would say that 
is a reason FOR doing an import, as it shows the deficiencies in the 
existing data!


TimSC

On 28/05/11 14:33, Ed Avis wrote:

TimSC  writes:


I have done further investigations. As I said, the national dataset has
about 90% of pharmacies exactly located. But in the Kent data set does
not include this precise data and instead has the postcode centre as the
pharmacy position. IMHO, if we can get permission for the national level
data set, we should import/merge the good 90% (and manually survey the
remainder).

If pharmacies are just points with lat/lon, it is not always simple to import
into the existing map, even if we knew the position were entirely accurate.
The road network in OSM has some margin for error so a pharmacy might end up
on the wrong side of the road.  In areas with buildings, the pharmacy node might
appear in the next-door building by mistake.

That said, if you are looking for a pharmacy, it is certainly more useful to 
have
one within a five metre accuracy rather than no data at all.  So I would still
be in favour of adding the data.




___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Ed Avis]

TimSC  writes:

>I have done further investigations. As I said, the national dataset has 
>about 90% of pharmacies exactly located. But in the Kent data set does 
>not include this precise data and instead has the postcode centre as the 
>pharmacy position. IMHO, if we can get permission for the national level 
>data set, we should import/merge the good 90% (and manually survey the 
>remainder).

If pharmacies are just points with lat/lon, it is not always simple to import
into the existing map, even if we knew the position were entirely accurate.
The road network in OSM has some margin for error so a pharmacy might end up
on the wrong side of the road.  In areas with buildings, the pharmacy node might
appear in the next-door building by mistake.

That said, if you are looking for a pharmacy, it is certainly more useful to 
have
one within a five metre accuracy rather than no data at all.  So I would still
be in favour of adding the data.

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

Good idea trying to get clarification on the dataset terms and conditions.

I have done further investigations. As I said, the national dataset has 
about 90% of pharmacies exactly located. But in the Kent data set does 
not include this precise data and instead has the postcode centre as the 
pharmacy position. IMHO, if we can get permission for the national level 
data set, we should import/merge the good 90% (and manually survey the 
remainder). If not, we can work on the inaccurate county level data and 
manually survey pharmacies as needed. In either case, the web site tool 
thing has a role.


I now have OSTN02 transformation working, which is nice.

I'll continue working on improving the usability of the site, and work 
towards a public release of the code "real soon now". :) It would be 
good to get several different data sets online and have a central 
registry of them (on the wiki).


TimSC

On 25/05/11 23:43, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I've also reported the issue here:

http://data.gov.uk/dataset/location_of_pharmacies#comment-5657

On 25 May 2011 23:31, TimSC  wrote:

On 25/05/11 23:25, Andy Mabbett wrote:

Presumably you're using the data from the CSV, not the PDF?

In any case the OG license is more recent, and thus supersedes the
restrictive terms in the PDF.


The web site says "Except where otherwise noted this is the Open Government
Licence.". The data set does indeed say it has different conditions. I
suspect this is an oversight by the website or they couldn't be bothered to
update the PDF. I'll sleep on this one!

Regards,

Tim








___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Steve Doerr]

On 25/05/2011 22:54, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 25/05/2011 22:47, TimSC wrote:

On 25/05/11 22:41, Steve Doerr wrote:
I preferred the old version where you didn't have to know about PCTs 
and the like :-(


Steve
You mean you can't find the PCT you want? That's a good point. I 
wanted to split the data set by county but that was not reliably in 
one column of the spreadsheet. I'll have a think!


Yes. I've so far failed to guess at any PCT name that will show me 
pharmacies in Gravesham.


I've found a search facility here: 
.


--
Steve

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Steve Doerr]

On 25/05/2011 23:21, Colin Smale wrote:


Have you tried West Kent PCT?


I'm not sure now, but I think I did.

--
Steve

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Andy Mabbett]

Presumably you're using the data from the CSV, not the PDF?

In any case the OG license is more recent, and thus supersedes the
restrictive terms in the PDF.

On 25 May 2011 22:44, TimSC  wrote:
> On 25/05/11 22:33, Chris Hill wrote:
>>
>> That data looks to be four and a half years old. Importing it en masse
>> seems inappropriate to me.
>>
> The point is it's massively more complete than OSM. Correcting the imported
> data would be easier than surveying from scratch. OSM goes out of date
> faster than we are actually surveying! (at least with respect to pharmacies)
>
> But I found a slight snag with the terms and conditions included with the
> PDF: "Terms of use - it is permitted to incorporate data from the nhs.uk and
> this site into software or computer systems used by any person or body
> performing statutory functions under, or by virtue of, legislation relating
> to the NHS."
>
> So it seems the national data set is not open data at all! Anyone have any
> experience in this?
>
> TimSC
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>



-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Colin Smale]

On 25/05/2011 23:54, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 25/05/2011 22:47, TimSC wrote:

On 25/05/11 22:41, Steve Doerr wrote:
I preferred the old version where you didn't have to know about PCTs 
and the like :-(


Steve
You mean you can't find the PCT you want? That's a good point. I 
wanted to split the data set by county but that was not reliably in 
one column of the spreadsheet. I'll have a think!


Yes. I've so far failed to guess at any PCT name that will show me 
pharmacies in Gravesham.



Have you tried West Kent PCT?



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Steve Doerr]

On 25/05/2011 22:47, TimSC wrote:

On 25/05/11 22:41, Steve Doerr wrote:
I preferred the old version where you didn't have to know about PCTs 
and the like :-(


Steve
You mean you can't find the PCT you want? That's a good point. I 
wanted to split the data set by county but that was not reliably in 
one column of the spreadsheet. I'll have a think!


Yes. I've so far failed to guess at any PCT name that will show me 
pharmacies in Gravesham.


--
Steve

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

On 25/05/11 22:41, Steve Doerr wrote:
I preferred the old version where you didn't have to know about PCTs 
and the like :-(


Steve
You mean you can't find the PCT you want? That's a good point. I wanted 
to split the data set by county but that was not reliably in one column 
of the spreadsheet. I'll have a think!


TimSC

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

On 25/05/11 22:33, Chris Hill wrote:
That data looks to be four and a half years old. Importing it en masse 
seems inappropriate to me.


The point is it's massively more complete than OSM. Correcting the 
imported data would be easier than surveying from scratch. OSM goes out 
of date faster than we are actually surveying! (at least with respect to 
pharmacies)


But I found a slight snag with the terms and conditions included with 
the PDF: "Terms of use - it is permitted to incorporate data from the 
nhs.uk and this site into software or computer systems used by any 
person or body performing statutory functions under, or by virtue of, 
legislation relating to the NHS."


So it seems the national data set is not open data at all! Anyone have 
any experience in this?


TimSC


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Steve Doerr]

I preferred the old version where you didn't have to know about PCTs and 
the like :-(


Steve


On 25/05/2011 22:19, TimSC wrote:


Well,

I adapted my code to spit the data into areas and to handle the whole 
of the UK. I noticed that about 90% of the entries claim to be within 
1m of the delivery address. From a few tests, it seems to be true. I 
can see the marker in google street view exactly where it should be. 
We probably need to use OSTN02 to get an accurate lat,lon. I'd say 
this data set might be ripe for an import into OSM... The remaining 
10% that are inaccurate the community can survey on the ground.


Tim

On 25/05/11 14:48, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I'm told, in private e-mail:

   You can get all England from
http://data.gov.uk/dataset/location_of_pharmacies
   at least - presumably under the OGL.



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

Well,

I adapted my code to spit the data into areas and to handle the whole of 
the UK. I noticed that about 90% of the entries claim to be within 1m of 
the delivery address. From a few tests, it seems to be true. I can see 
the marker in google street view exactly where it should be. We probably 
need to use OSTN02 to get an accurate lat,lon. I'd say this data set 
might be ripe for an import into OSM... The remaining 10% that are 
inaccurate the community can survey on the ground.


Tim

On 25/05/11 14:48, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I'm told, in private e-mail:

   You can get all England from
http://data.gov.uk/dataset/location_of_pharmacies
   at least - presumably under the OGL.
   



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Tom Chance]

On 25 May 2011 16:59, TimSC  wrote:
>
> I'll have a think about if I can do something about that. Apart from having
> to modify the code, the main effort to making this type of data useful is to
> do the comparison with OSM to find what is missing. The post boxes have an
> obvious reference number physically written on them. Pharmacies don't have
> an obvious unique code (I am referring to surveying in OSM, rather than
> peeking in the database.). I found matches by doing a XAPI query and then
> manually comparing the results. That probably won't scale up to the national
> size database without other people helping.
>
>
This tool is really great, you might like to also look at this tool by
Robert Scott which looks for allotment objects in the vicinty of entries
from another open data set. This way it picks up unnamed allotments.

http://ris.dev.openstreetmap.org/dsmusicalallotments/map
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London/Datastore_allotments

As others have said, making a tool that would be easy to set-up, that could
both compare a data set with OSM and make it as easy as possible to update
OSM, would be really brilliant.

Regards,
Tom

-- 
http://tom.acrewoods.net   http://twitter.com/tom_chance
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I'll have a think about if I can do something about that. Apart from 
having to modify the code, the main effort to making this type of data 
useful is to do the comparison with OSM to find what is missing. The 
post boxes have an obvious reference number physically written on them. 
Pharmacies don't have an obvious unique code (I am referring to 
surveying in OSM, rather than peeking in the database.). I found matches 
by doing a XAPI query and then manually comparing the results. That 
probably won't scale up to the national size database without other 
people helping.


Currently, I can't just import the whole database into my script because 
every pharmacy is sent every time the page is refreshed. This works for 
small ish data sets. I could split the data into regions, or do some 
fancy dynamic map stuff. Also, it would be harder to patrol so many 
pages from abuse, unless I just remove the comment feature...


TimSC


On 25/05/11 14:48, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I'm told, in private e-mail:

   You can get all England from
http://data.gov.uk/dataset/location_of_pharmacies
   at least - presumably under the OGL.
   



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Andy Mabbett]

I'm told, in private e-mail:

  You can get all England from
http://data.gov.uk/dataset/location_of_pharmacies
  at least - presumably under the OGL.

On 25 May 2011 14:00, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> On 25 May 2011 13:33, TimSC  wrote:
>
>> I was thinking about Kent's open data and how we can improve our mapping.
>> I've been talking to Gregory about missing schools but for some reason, I
>> chose to look at pharmacies. I was partly inspired by Draco's post box
>> locator [1]. I thought I could do a web 2.0 annotation of the pharmacy data
>> set and allow adding links into the OSM database. This is the result.
>>
>> http://toolserver.org/~timsc/locateservices/view.php
>>
>> On this site you can:
>>
>> *Geolocate pharmacies on NPE, OS7, StreetView, OSM, given their rough
>> initial positions from the original data set (I am guessing the initial
>> position is simply the postcode centre).
>> *Associate a pharmacy with an OSM database object. This marks it as "found".
>> *Export a GPX with all the missing pharmacies.
>>
>> Apologies for the minimalist appearance of the site. I will get around to
>> tarting it up some time... I also wrote the code to apply to other data sets
>> - watch this space. We are actually lacking most pharmacies in Kent. On the
>> other hand, OSM has one or two that the KCC data set doesn't (in new
>> estates). This site should help everybody find them.
>
> This is splendid. I've thought we should have something reusable like
> this, since the cycle-shop finder, but don't have the coding skills to
> JFDI.
>
> Is this Kent council data, or NHS? Can't we get national data on
> phramacies from the latter?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Andy Allan]

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 1:33 PM, TimSC  wrote:

> Any comments?

I think this approach of dealing with external datasets (compare with
OSM, matching, and informing mappers of discrepancies) is the right
direction - see also the Bike Shop Locator [1] that Shaun and I put
together last year. A further step in the process is tightening the
feedback loop between such comparison websites and editing OSM - for
example, there is a "missing bike shop" layer available in Potlatch2
which fetches data from the BSL app[2], although this layer isn't
enabled in the default p2 build.

I'm hoping to revitalise this approach over the next couple of months,
and it's great to see more effort along the same lines.

Cheers,
Andy

[1] http://shaunmcdonald.dev.openstreetmap.org/bike-shop-locator/
[2] http://gitorious.org/bike-shop-locator

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[Andy Mabbett]

On 25 May 2011 13:33, TimSC  wrote:

> I was thinking about Kent's open data and how we can improve our mapping.
> I've been talking to Gregory about missing schools but for some reason, I
> chose to look at pharmacies. I was partly inspired by Draco's post box
> locator [1]. I thought I could do a web 2.0 annotation of the pharmacy data
> set and allow adding links into the OSM database. This is the result.
>
> http://toolserver.org/~timsc/locateservices/view.php
>
> On this site you can:
>
> *Geolocate pharmacies on NPE, OS7, StreetView, OSM, given their rough
> initial positions from the original data set (I am guessing the initial
> position is simply the postcode centre).
> *Associate a pharmacy with an OSM database object. This marks it as "found".
> *Export a GPX with all the missing pharmacies.
>
> Apologies for the minimalist appearance of the site. I will get around to
> tarting it up some time... I also wrote the code to apply to other data sets
> - watch this space. We are actually lacking most pharmacies in Kent. On the
> other hand, OSM has one or two that the KCC data set doesn't (in new
> estates). This site should help everybody find them.

This is splendid. I've thought we should have something reusable like
this, since the cycle-shop finder, but don't have the coding skills to
JFDI.

Is this Kent council data, or NHS? Can't we get national data on
phramacies from the latter?


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

[Talk-GB] Kent Pharmacy, OSM Validation

[TimSC]

Hi all,

I was thinking about Kent's open data and how we can improve our 
mapping. I've been talking to Gregory about missing schools but for some 
reason, I chose to look at pharmacies. I was partly inspired by Draco's 
post box locator [1]. I thought I could do a web 2.0 annotation of the 
pharmacy data set and allow adding links into the OSM database. This is 
the result.


http://toolserver.org/~timsc/locateservices/view.php

On this site you can:

*Geolocate pharmacies on NPE, OS7, StreetView, OSM, given their rough 
initial positions from the original data set (I am guessing the initial 
position is simply the postcode centre).

*Associate a pharmacy with an OSM database object. This marks it as "found".
*Export a GPX with all the missing pharmacies.

Apologies for the minimalist appearance of the site. I will get around 
to tarting it up some time... I also wrote the code to apply to other 
data sets - watch this space. We are actually lacking most pharmacies in 
Kent. On the other hand, OSM has one or two that the KCC data set 
doesn't (in new estates). This site should help everybody find them.


Any comments?

TimSC

[1] http://www.dracos.co.uk/play/locating-postboxes/


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb