Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
What I've done in the past is created a .osm file with my particular post-code of interest - and then added the file as a new layer in JOSM - so I can overlay it. I would certainly be interested to use this new site - when my postcode areas of interest have been loaded. All very useful observations. What is your postcode area (e.g. HU) so I can load it? Mine is SK (Stockport), but I'm very close to the boundaries with WA (Warrington) and CW (Crewe) - and have added address data to areas of each. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids - use in searching
Ed Avis wrote: Lester Caine writes: Many search engines, even map based ones, have used 'EX13 7##' based data until quite recently. In the absence of anything better it was all that was available. NOW we do at least have the finer detail coordinate data from OS even if it does not give real road names. THAT is at least better for looking up 'xx within a 20 mile radius' where the previous options may well have only had 50 mile accuracy. Ah! I thought that the EX13 7## results _were_ the Code Point Open data. Perhaps because they seemed to appear on the OSM website at about the same time as the Opendata release first came out. But yes, I see that the OS data set is much better than I thought - it has positions for every single postcode. So replacing the course data with finer lookup is at least a step forward. Yes, I think postcode search is an important application for OSM, so it would be great to import this data so that Nominatim and other searches can use it. That would supersede the current approximate lookup based on FreeThePostcode. That is - I believe - where the EX13 7## data actually came from. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids - use in searching
Lester Caine writes: >Many search engines, even map based ones, have used 'EX13 7##' based >data until quite recently. In the absence of anything better it was >all that was available. NOW we do at least have the finer detail >coordinate data from OS even if it does not give real road >names. THAT is at least better for looking up 'xx within a 20 mile >radius' where the previous options may well have only had 50 mile >accuracy. Ah! I thought that the EX13 7## results _were_ the Code Point Open data. Perhaps because they seemed to appear on the OSM website at about the same time as the Opendata release first came out. But yes, I see that the OS data set is much better than I thought - it has positions for every single postcode. >So replacing the course data with finer lookup is at least a step >forward. Yes, I think postcode search is an important application for OSM, so it would be great to import this data so that Nominatim and other searches can use it. That would supersede the current approximate lookup based on FreeThePostcode. -- Ed Avis ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Hi, A derived post-code based on Latitude and Longitude would work much better internationally and would give us something to hang other statistics on. the OSM short code could fit the bill. Cheers Bob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk] wrote: >Sent: 21 January 2011 12:51 PM >To: 'talk-gb OSM List' >Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids > >Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: >> Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]wrote: >>> Sent: 21 January 2011 11:41 AM >>> To: 'talk-gb OSM List' >>> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids >>> >>> Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: snip >> Don't go there >Why not? Look up a postcode, and find a link to the business you are working >with, then confirm that postcode and address are correct. It's amazing how >many businesses are actually using the wrong post code! And I have to >confirm which is right via Royal mail - but then I'm probably not allowed to >actually use the results :( That was the point I was getting at. Cheers Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21 January 2011 13:50, Lester Caine wrote: > I know that storage is cheap, but there seems little point having the full > address attached as tags to every house. Just as other information that is > available at 'higher level' does not need to be duplicated every time. If > one looks up 'road' one should see a list of attached houses. How one finds > 'road', be it name or postcode, does not matter. Having all that 'road' > information on every building is just wrong ... just as having 'is_in' for > every higher level search term would be. But then no one has ever agreed > with my suggestions on hierarchy :( This is why I've been using the associatedStreet relation suggested by the Karlsruhe Schema (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Using_relations_to_associate_house_and_street_.28optional.29) -- Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Lester, On 01/21/11 13:50, Lester Caine wrote: Why not? Look up a postcode, and find a link to the business you are working with, then confirm that postcode and address are correct. It's amazing how many businesses are actually using the wrong post code! You're allowed to check the street name of the business you're dealing with in Google Maps. But you're not allowed to make a database of that. Just because it may be legit to look up a post code for some reason doesn't mean you can enter it into OSM. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Ed Avis wrote: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists writes: The Open data that OS released last year included the Code Point Open dataset which has the location of postcode centroids. I think the big question is whether adding them would help Nominatim resolve postcode searches. It seems to have some postcode data already but I don't know where it gets that from? Nominatim works very nicely once you have the postcodes and house numbers in OSM. Just try my postcode B72 1JU in the OSM search box for an example. I got confused. The OSM website will do postcode matches using the NPEMap / Free The Postcode data when Nominatim doesn't return a result. These search results come up like 'EX13 7##' and must be based on a postcode centroid. If the centroids were mapped within OSM itself, then Nominatim could do this search. This might be slightly cleaner, but it's more of a technical decision than anything else, so it's for Brian Q. and the search form folk to decide. Many search engines, even map based ones, have used 'EX13 7##' based data until quite recently. In the absence of anything better it was all that was available. NOW we do at least have the finer detail coordinate data from OS even if it does not give real road names. THAT is at least better for looking up 'xx within a 20 mile radius' where the previous options may well have only had 50 mile accuracy. So replacing the course data with finer lookup is at least a step forward. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]wrote: Sent: 21 January 2011 11:41 AM To: 'talk-gb OSM List' Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: One thing that is absolutely clear to me is that you can't add postcodes unless you have been around and assigned the right houses to the right streets. On older traditional streets where this is clear from imagery it's not so difficult but in new housing estates it's impossible unless you have walked the patch first. After that it all drops into place really rather easily. In the final analysis, a building should have it's post code as part of the address. Ideally that would be picked up from the 'road' that the building is attached to. So the address would consist of a 'house name/number' on a tag for the building, and a link somehow to the road which provides the other data for the full address. Tagging ALL that information for every building is something which should be avoided. Why to be avoided? Just because there is one way of achieving the same thing doesn't mean one way should be avoided. I know that storage is cheap, but there seems little point having the full address attached as tags to every house. Just as other information that is available at 'higher level' does not need to be duplicated every time. If one looks up 'road' one should see a list of attached houses. How one finds 'road', be it name or postcode, does not matter. Having all that 'road' information on every building is just wrong ... just as having 'is_in' for every higher level search term would be. But then no one has ever agreed with my suggestions on hierarchy :( The problem with the OS pointcode data is that it does NOT include the road name since that is the bit that Royal Mail still demand payment for. The PAF file of cause has ALL of the buildings along with their coordinates, but the licence prevents that being used, so we have to physically recreate it from the ground up. Moving forward, where postcodes are already available as part of postal information then no problem, but it would be useful if the missing postcodes were added even if they still require linking to the relevant road. There does seem to be a disagreement between authorities over how postcodes are defined, but the Royal Mail rule is that a single road has a single postcode for a 'walk' group, so longer roads will be broken down ( and if one side of a road is on a different 'walk' then it will have a different postcode ). Where a group of roads in a small enough area, then the 'road' will be the main route that they all link to, and the 'sub-road' is secondary information ... but THAT is an area where council LLPG officers may quote different postcodes to the one listed in PAF. Do we care about this? I say no. Just go out and put some house numbers on buildings and you will see how easy it is to add the majority of postcodes using the Copdepoint data. Job done, mostly end of story. We don't need anyone/anything else. Correct ... and as my own customers manually add the fine detail of properties with coordinates from their GPS in place of the 'generic' location from the postcode things will get better ... but having the 'generic' one at least gets you to the right area to start with! Although I am now using my own postcode lookup/coordinates and using that to simply provide me with a location for osm so do I bother updating that information IN osm? Probably not until osm does handle things an a more logical manor. And I CAN manage hierarchy in a manor that works well for the search engine. :) One thing that has been established is that a google lookup of a postcode may give a number of properties on the related road and so provide the missing information to link the postcode to a physical road. Don't go there Why not? Look up a postcode, and find a link to the business you are working with, then confirm that postcode and address are correct. It's amazing how many businesses are actually using the wrong post code! And I have to confirm which is right via Royal mail - but then I'm probably not allowed to actually use the results :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/11 12:18, Kevin Peat wrote: Chris, I'll go with the flow on this, there isn't much point adding stuff to the db where there isn't a consensus. My postcode area is TQ so if you could add this to the layer that would be great, it would be useful for tagging buildings anyway. Kevin Kevin, I've loaded the TQ area, I hope it's useful. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Chris, I'll go with the flow on this, there isn't much point adding stuff to the db where there isn't a consensus. My postcode area is TQ so if you could add this to the layer that would be great, it would be useful for tagging buildings anyway. Kevin On 21 January 2011 11:46, Chris Hill wrote: > On 21/01/11 09:51, Kevin Peat wrote: > >> Hello Chris, >> >> I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode >> centroids to the map? >> >> There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me >> to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding >> the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in >> navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their >> satnavs? >> >> Kevin >> > As others have said, the postcode centroids are completely artificial. I > believe they were included as part of the Open Data as a way of giving some > address information out without giving away the real address file data that > would have been much more useful. Clearly OS & RM did not want to give any > of this data away, they make money from it. They were forced to give some > Open Data, so the fudged, soft detail of Street View and the postcode > centroids are the result. > > The overlay is intended for anyone to use to assist with adding postcodes > to OSM objects by referring to the centroids without adding them. > > I will add more data over time, but if anyone would like specific areas > (e.g. HU) adding first please speak up. > > -- > Cheers, Chris > user: chillly > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]wrote: >Sent: 21 January 2011 11:41 AM >To: 'talk-gb OSM List' >Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids > >Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: >> One thing that is absolutely clear to me is that you can't add >> postcodes unless you have been around and assigned the right houses to >> the right streets. On older traditional streets where this is clear >> from imagery it's not so difficult but in new housing estates it's >> impossible unless you have walked the patch first. After that it all >> drops into place really rather easily. > >In the final analysis, a building should have it's post code as part of the >address. Ideally that would be picked up from the 'road' that the building is >attached to. So the address would consist of a 'house name/number' on a tag >for the building, and a link somehow to the road which provides the other >data for the full address. Tagging ALL that information for every building is >something which should be avoided. Why to be avoided? Just because there is one way of achieving the same thing doesn't mean one way should be avoided. >The problem with the OS pointcode data is that it does NOT include the road >name since that is the bit that Royal Mail still demand payment for. The PAF >file of cause has ALL of the buildings along with their coordinates, but the >licence prevents that being used, so we have to physically recreate it from the >ground up. Moving forward, where postcodes are already available as part of >postal information then no problem, but it would be useful if the missing >postcodes were added even if they still require linking to the relevant road. >There does seem to be a disagreement between authorities over how >postcodes are defined, but the Royal Mail rule is that a single road has a single >postcode for a 'walk' >group, so longer roads will be broken down ( and if one side of a road is on a >different 'walk' then it will have a different postcode ). Where a group of >roads in a small enough area, then the 'road' will be the main route that they >all link to, and the 'sub-road' is secondary information ... but THAT is an area >where council LLPG officers may quote different postcodes to the one listed >in PAF. Do we care about this? I say no. Just go out and put some house numbers on buildings and you will see how easy it is to add the majority of postcodes using the Copdepoint data. Job done, mostly end of story. We don't need anyone/anything else. > >One thing that has been established is that a google lookup of a postcode may >give a number of properties on the related road and so provide the missing >information to link the postcode to a physical road. Don't go there Cheers Andy > >-- >Lester Caine - G8HFL >- >Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact >L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - >http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - >http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3391 - Release Date: 01/19/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists writes: >>>The Open >>>data that OS released last year included the Code Point Open dataset >>>which has the location of postcode centroids. >>I think the big question is whether adding them would help Nominatim >>resolve postcode searches. It seems to have some postcode data already but >>I don't know where it gets that from? > >Nominatim works very nicely once you have the postcodes and house numbers in >OSM. Just try my postcode B72 1JU in the OSM search box for an example. I got confused. The OSM website will do postcode matches using the NPEMap / Free The Postcode data when Nominatim doesn't return a result. These search results come up like 'EX13 7##' and must be based on a postcode centroid. If the centroids were mapped within OSM itself, then Nominatim could do this search. This might be slightly cleaner, but it's more of a technical decision than anything else, so it's for Brian Q. and the search form folk to decide. -- Ed Avis ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/11 09:51, Kevin Peat wrote: Hello Chris, I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode centroids to the map? There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their satnavs? Kevin As others have said, the postcode centroids are completely artificial. I believe they were included as part of the Open Data as a way of giving some address information out without giving away the real address file data that would have been much more useful. Clearly OS & RM did not want to give any of this data away, they make money from it. They were forced to give some Open Data, so the fudged, soft detail of Street View and the postcode centroids are the result. The overlay is intended for anyone to use to assist with adding postcodes to OSM objects by referring to the centroids without adding them. I will add more data over time, but if anyone would like specific areas (e.g. HU) adding first please speak up. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: One thing that is absolutely clear to me is that you can't add postcodes unless you have been around and assigned the right houses to the right streets. On older traditional streets where this is clear from imagery it's not so difficult but in new housing estates it's impossible unless you have walked the patch first. After that it all drops into place really rather easily. In the final analysis, a building should have it's post code as part of the address. Ideally that would be picked up from the 'road' that the building is attached to. So the address would consist of a 'house name/number' on a tag for the building, and a link somehow to the road which provides the other data for the full address. Tagging ALL that information for every building is something which should be avoided. The problem with the OS pointcode data is that it does NOT include the road name since that is the bit that Royal Mail still demand payment for. The PAF file of cause has ALL of the buildings along with their coordinates, but the licence prevents that being used, so we have to physically recreate it from the ground up. Moving forward, where postcodes are already available as part of postal information then no problem, but it would be useful if the missing postcodes were added even if they still require linking to the relevant road. There does seem to be a disagreement between authorities over how postcodes are defined, but the Royal Mail rule is that a single road has a single postcode for a 'walk' group, so longer roads will be broken down ( and if one side of a road is on a different 'walk' then it will have a different postcode ). Where a group of roads in a small enough area, then the 'road' will be the main route that they all link to, and the 'sub-road' is secondary information ... but THAT is an area where council LLPG officers may quote different postcodes to the one listed in PAF. One thing that has been established is that a google lookup of a postcode may give a number of properties on the related road and so provide the missing information to link the postcode to a physical road. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Ed Avis [mailto:e...@waniasset.com] wrote >Sent: 21 January 2011 11:28 AM >To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids > >Chris Hill writes: > >>The Open >>data that OS released last year included the Code Point Open dataset >>which has the location of postcode centroids. These can help with >>adding postcodes to addresses. > >>Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value >>of that. > >I think the big question is whether adding them would help Nominatim >resolve postcode searches. It seems to have some postcode data already but >I don't know where it gets that from? Nominatim works very nicely once you have the postcodes and house numbers in OSM. Just try my postcode B72 1JU in the OSM search box for an example. It doesn't currently do the house number and the postcode together in the same query though. Cheers Andy > >-- >Ed Avis > > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3391 - Release Date: 01/19/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 20/01/11 23:09, Richard Bullock wrote: Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this data, for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode. I've added a few addr:postcode to my existing addr:* house numbering. In the vast majority of cases, I've found that the centroid itself isn't actually a centroid in the geometric sense - but more sort of a "median" house. e.g. even on a curved road, the "centroid" lies at the position of one of the houses that the postcode applies to, not at the geometric centroid - which would be some distance away and make it very tricky to assign post-codes to addresses. The following seem quite common in my area; *Short roads often have just one post code covering every address on the street *Slightly longer roads will often have one post code for one side of the road, and one for the other. *Some roads will be split into segments where each address on both sides of the road have one postcode - then further up the road, each will have a different one etc. *Then there are ones with one for each side of the road - and split into segments. The roads mostly seem to split into segments if there is a convenient junction splitting up the housing - but sometimes not - and this requires a bit of educated guesswork sometimes. What I've done in the past is created a .osm file with my particular post-code of interest - and then added the file as a new layer in JOSM - so I can overlay it. I would certainly be interested to use this new site - when my postcode areas of interest have been loaded. All very useful observations. What is your postcode area (e.g. HU) so I can load it? -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Chris Hill writes: >The Open >data that OS released last year included the Code Point Open dataset >which has the location of postcode centroids. These can help with adding >postcodes to addresses. >Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of >that. I think the big question is whether adding them would help Nominatim resolve postcode searches. It seems to have some postcode data already but I don't know where it gets that from? -- Ed Avis ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
A couple of points: * Admin. boundaries are not straightforward to verify, but there is plenty of suitable objective evidence : from Boundary Markers (e.g., http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/502944003), names on rubbish bins, or the bin lorries, asset identification numbers on street furniture, asking people in the street, out-of-copyright documentary evidence, style and appearance of street signs (and other street furniture), sticky labels saying "report a problem", etc. Some areas even have local 'beating the bounds' events. ITO Analysis also show how useful boundaries are for analytical questions: not every interesting boundary will be available in a suitable data-set outwith OSM. * Postcode centroids are completely artificial, nothing tangible about them at all. The centroids are copyright to Royal Mail, and require an additional attribution statement. As may the data derived from them * Individually assigned postcodes (whether to a road, an address interpolation way or an individual house/flat) provide a much richer FREE dataset than that offered by the CodePoint Open set of centroids. The range of use cases for such a dataset is much larger, and not restricted to just enabling navigation to postcode in satnavs. An obvious application is 'PAFing' address lists: something which for charities and small businesses still costs significant sums of money. * If you want postcodes in your Garmin it is trivial to build a separate transparent layer using mkgmap. There is no need to import them into OSM for this purpose. * No one is asking you to add postcodes to 25,000 houses: they are just providing tools to assist you if that is what you want to do. Generally, adding postcodes is trivial compared with the leg work of collecting house numbers, adding buildings and verifying streetnames. Jerry From: Kevin Peat To: Tom Hughes Cc: Talk-GB Sent: Fri, 21 January, 2011 10:02:50 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they cannot be viewed on the ground? That's great for Nominatim but what if I want to find a postcode on my Garmin? Kevin On 21 January 2011 09:58, Tom Hughes wrote: >Because postcode centroids are not real - they don't exist so fail the >ground truth rule. > >As I understand things the new version of Nominatim that is coming up >will search the OpenData postcode data (and various other postcode >databases for other countries) directly anyway. > >Tom > >-- >Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) >http://compton.nu/ > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Richard Bullock [mailto:rb...@cantab.net] wrote: >Sent: 20 January 2011 11:10 PM >To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids > >> Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value >> of that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this >> data, for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode. >> >I've added a few addr:postcode to my existing addr:* house numbering. In >the vast majority of cases, I've found that the centroid itself isn't actually a >centroid in the geometric sense - but more sort of a "median" house. > >e.g. even on a curved road, the "centroid" lies at the position of one of the >houses that the postcode applies to, not at the geometric centroid - which >would be some distance away and make it very tricky to assign post-codes to >addresses. > >The following seem quite common in my area; > >*Short roads often have just one post code covering every address on the >street >*Slightly longer roads will often have one post code for one side of the >road, and one for the other. >*Some roads will be split into segments where each address on both sides >of the road have one postcode - then further up the road, each will have a >different one etc. >*Then there are ones with one for each side of the road - and split into >segments. > >The roads mostly seem to split into segments if there is a convenient junction >splitting up the housing - but sometimes not - and this requires a bit of >educated guesswork sometimes. Richard, I concur with all your observations. Where postcodes don't change at a connecting street (or connecting track or footpath in some cases I've observed) or to work out the postcodes for houses opposite a connecting street mostly I've found by taking a central distance between the two adjacent codepoint nodes it's possible to generally get the right postcode, though I air on the side of caution and tag the building at the centre and sometimes the house either side of this with a addr:postcode=? If I'm not convinced. I'm finding that out of around 2000 properties tagged with a postcode to date I've got perhaps a dozen I've left a ? on. Not bad really. One thing that is absolutely clear to me is that you can't add postcodes unless you have been around and assigned the right houses to the right streets. On older traditional streets where this is clear from imagery it's not so difficult but in new housing estates it's impossible unless you have walked the patch first. After that it all drops into place really rather easily. Cheers Andy > >What I've done in the past is created a .osm file with my particular post-code >of interest - and then added the file as a new layer in JOSM - so I can overlay >it. I would certainly be interested to use this new site - when my postcode >areas of interest have been loaded. > > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3391 - Release Date: 01/19/11 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Hi Ed, With the advent of Bing tracing and OS Opendata I wouldn't be surprised if we had all the roads in Britain complete this year even in the areas where there are never going to be many mappers on-the-ground. But house numbers cannot be added remotely so it might take another 10 years for all that data to be added by local people. In the meantime it would be nice to be able to make a postcode search. Kevin On 21 January 2011 10:03, Ed Loach wrote: > I can’t speak for Chris, but I don’t see any point in just adding the > centroids to the map as any satnav application already has access to that > data and can even keep it updated easier by keeping it separate and just > replacing the Opendata source file each time a new version is released. > > > > I’m still not absolutely convinced that if we have all the roads and house > numbers that postcodes are even necessary (other than for satnav users who > are in the habit of entering them). Searching for the address should find it > with or without the postcode being present. I can see they might be useful > to distinguish between two roads with the same name in the same town, but I > think that is fairly rare. > > > > Ed > > > > *From:* Kevin Peat [mailto:ke...@kevinpeat.com] > *Sent:* 21 January 2011 09:52 > *To:* Chris Hill > *Cc:* Talk-GB > *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids > > > > Hello Chris, > > I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode > centroids to the map? > > There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me > to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding > the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in > navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their > satnavs? > > Kevin > > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/2011 10:10, Tom Hughes wrote: On 21/01/11 10:02, Kevin Peat wrote: So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they cannot be viewed on the ground? They may not be viewable on the ground, but they are real in the sense that somebody has defined them by reference to features on the ground. Postcode centroids are not real like that - in fact postcodes are not defined in a geographic way at all. Rather they are defined by lists of addresses. The centroid (and the bounding polygons that you sometimes see) are then generated algorithmically from the locations of those addresses. That doesn't make them not useful. David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/11 10:02, Kevin Peat wrote: > So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they > cannot be viewed on the ground? They may not be viewable on the ground, but they are real in the sense that somebody has defined them by reference to features on the ground. Postcode centroids are not real like that - in fact postcodes are not defined in a geographic way at all. Rather they are defined by lists of addresses. The centroid (and the bounding polygons that you sometimes see) are then generated algorithmically from the locations of those addresses. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/2011 10:02, Kevin Peat wrote: So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they cannot be viewed on the ground? Well said. I absolutely agree admin boundaries have the same kind of status as postcodes. I think there is value in visualising postcodes, and while you can do this if you write a separate application and overlay it, that is a huge thing to do compared with using all the tools we already have. David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
I can’t speak for Chris, but I don’t see any point in just adding the centroids to the map as any satnav application already has access to that data and can even keep it updated easier by keeping it separate and just replacing the Opendata source file each time a new version is released. I’m still not absolutely convinced that if we have all the roads and house numbers that postcodes are even necessary (other than for satnav users who are in the habit of entering them). Searching for the address should find it with or without the postcode being present. I can see they might be useful to distinguish between two roads with the same name in the same town, but I think that is fairly rare. Ed From: Kevin Peat [mailto:ke...@kevinpeat.com] Sent: 21 January 2011 09:52 To: Chris Hill Cc: Talk-GB Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids Hello Chris, I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode centroids to the map? There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their satnavs? Kevin ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
So I should delete the various admin boundaries in the db then as they cannot be viewed on the ground? That's great for Nominatim but what if I want to find a postcode on my Garmin? Kevin On 21 January 2011 09:58, Tom Hughes wrote: > > Because postcode centroids are not real - they don't exist so fail the > ground truth rule. > > As I understand things the new version of Nominatim that is coming up > will search the OpenData postcode data (and various other postcode > databases for other countries) directly anyway. > > Tom > > -- > Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) > http://compton.nu/ > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
On 21/01/11 09:51, Kevin Peat wrote: > I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode > centroids to the map? > > There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for > me to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas > adding the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement > in navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into > their satnavs? Because postcode centroids are not real - they don't exist so fail the ground truth rule. As I understand things the new version of Nominatim that is coming up will search the OpenData postcode data (and various other postcode databases for other countries) directly anyway. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Hello Chris, I was wondering why you don't see any value in just adding the postcode centroids to the map? There are probably 25000+ buildings in my area so it isn't feasible for me to add them all and their addresses in less than a lifetime whereas adding the postcode centroids would surely allow an instant improvement in navigation for many users who are used to tapping a postcode into their satnavs? Kevin On 20 January 2011 18:17, Chris Hill wrote: > Now that people are tracing buildings from Bing etc addressing is getting > more widespread, but one awkward area is postcodes. The Open data that OS > released last year included the Code Point Open dataset which has the > location of postcode centroids. These can help with adding postcodes to > addresses. > > I have created an overlay from the postcode centroids. You can see it here > http://codepoint.raggedred.net/ One way to use this is as an overlay in an > editor. Blackadder has added how to set this up in JOSM on the wiki page > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey_Opendata#Code-Point_OpenIt > also works in Potlatch 2. > > I have only loaded some of the postcode areas so far. You can see these on > the wiki page: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Chillly/codepoint > > Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of > that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this data, > for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode. > > -- > Cheers, Chris > user: chillly > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this data, for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode. I've added a few addr:postcode to my existing addr:* house numbering. In the vast majority of cases, I've found that the centroid itself isn't actually a centroid in the geometric sense - but more sort of a "median" house. e.g. even on a curved road, the "centroid" lies at the position of one of the houses that the postcode applies to, not at the geometric centroid - which would be some distance away and make it very tricky to assign post-codes to addresses. The following seem quite common in my area; *Short roads often have just one post code covering every address on the street *Slightly longer roads will often have one post code for one side of the road, and one for the other. *Some roads will be split into segments where each address on both sides of the road have one postcode - then further up the road, each will have a different one etc. *Then there are ones with one for each side of the road - and split into segments. The roads mostly seem to split into segments if there is a convenient junction splitting up the housing - but sometimes not - and this requires a bit of educated guesswork sometimes. What I've done in the past is created a .osm file with my particular post-code of interest - and then added the file as a new layer in JOSM - so I can overlay it. I would certainly be interested to use this new site - when my postcode areas of interest have been loaded. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Postcode centroids
Now that people are tracing buildings from Bing etc addressing is getting more widespread, but one awkward area is postcodes. The Open data that OS released last year included the Code Point Open dataset which has the location of postcode centroids. These can help with adding postcodes to addresses. I have created an overlay from the postcode centroids. You can see it here http://codepoint.raggedred.net/ One way to use this is as an overlay in an editor. Blackadder has added how to set this up in JOSM on the wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey_Opendata#Code-Point_Open It also works in Potlatch 2. I have only loaded some of the postcode areas so far. You can see these on the wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Chillly/codepoint Please do not just add the centroid to the map. I don't see the value of that. I am interested in the experience people gain from using this data, for example to add postcodes to an address such as addr:postcode. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
