Re: [Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[Michael Booth]

Fife Council has their boundaries available here: 
https://data.gov.uk/dataset/fife-community-council-boundaries - but the 
licence information says "none" so probably need to get them to release 
it under a proper licence?


On 27/05/2018 11:55, Colin Smale wrote:


Hi Saoirse,

As far as I have been able to ascertain, the Scottish Government 
delegated the delineation of the community areas to the councils, and 
each council seems to have their own policy about open data.


In the case of Edinburgh, it looks like they require an attribution: 
"This information is supplied under the Open Government License v3.0 
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/). 
The data was captured by the City of Edinburgh Council against 
Ordnance Survey basemaps and requires the following attribution 
statement to acknowledge the source of information:“Copyright City of 
Edinburgh Council, contains Ordnance Survey data © Crown copyright and 
database right (insert year)”"


http://data.edinburghcouncilmaps.info/datasets/da44854d46c44a76b9b1160fc609738a_25

You might want to check with 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ


Colin

On 2018-05-27 11:54, S M wrote:

Hi, thanks for all the responses. I have started mapping community 
councils in Edinburgh. This link is useful for anyone else planning 
to do so: http://socprojects.napier.ac.uk/is/Edinburgh/
I will hold off on adding area committees for now. As far as I can 
tell they often coincide with community council boundaries, which is 
helpful if we decide in future they should be added.

Saoirse

On 26 May 2018 at 14:32, SK53 > wrote:


Adding such things tends to be down to local mappers. The best
source for accurate boundaries is OS Open Data Boundary Line:
this needs a little experience to process well, but IIRC JOSM
handles it reasonably well.
I don't think area committees, at least in Argyll & Bute, have
anything like the same powers and responsibilities as English
District Councils (the main admin_level=8 grouping), and
technically are committees of the full council just like finance,
planning etc., rather than being separate legal entities. (Such
powers as are delegated are mentioned alongside the basic
delegations to officers needed for effective administration, see
A&B's constitution

.
A good concrete example is that English District Councils have
Returning Officers, whereas the A&B Returning Officer is the Head
of Customer Services.) Nor am I sure if the area committees have
any dedicated staff, although I find it hard to see how they can
achieve anything without a minimum of secretarial support.

I would therefore suggest these are not formal administrative
boundaries (in OSM terms), and certainly the admin_level=8 should
be avoided. We don't do well in keeping non-formal admin
boundaries separate from other types of boundaries (e.g., wards
which are essentially a political boundary determined by the
boundary commission, even if ward councillors may get limited
budgets and councils may align service provision with the wards).
As an interim approach I'd suggest using admin_level=9, but I
think we could do with a bit more of a re-think of some of our
boundary tagging (the bodies with powers 'devolved' upwards, such
as the West Midlands Combined Authority (currently tagged
admin_level=6, but an anomaly), is another case.
Jerry

On 26 May 2018 at 13:48, S M mailto:llamas...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi, this is my first post on this forum.
My question is: is there any reason why community councils in
Scotland are not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping
in Angus, and I was planning to map the community councils
for Angus council area, but I wanted to check first. These
community councils do not have as many powers as English
civil parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few
statutory powers.
If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing
Angus council area's community councils, and I can do
Edinburgh's as well. They would be admin_level=10 to fit with
English civil parishes and Welsh communities. It is worth
noting that Scotland also has "area committees" which some
council areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and
Bute etc) have devolved certain powers to. If these were to
be mapped they would be admin_level=8 presumably.
Thanks.
Saoirse
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Re: [Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[Colin Smale]

Hi Saoirse, 

As far as I have been able to ascertain, the Scottish Government
delegated the delineation of the community areas to the councils, and
each council seems to have their own policy about open data.  

In the case of Edinburgh, it looks like they require an attribution:
"This information is supplied under the Open Government License v3.0
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/).
The data was captured by the City of Edinburgh Council against Ordnance
Survey basemaps and requires the following attribution statement to
acknowledge the source of information:"Copyright City of Edinburgh
Council, contains Ordnance Survey data (c) Crown copyright and database
right (insert year)"" 

http://data.edinburghcouncilmaps.info/datasets/da44854d46c44a76b9b1160fc609738a_25


You might want to check with
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ 

Colin 

On 2018-05-27 11:54, S M wrote:

> Hi, thanks for all the responses. I have started mapping community councils 
> in Edinburgh. This link is useful for anyone else planning to do so: 
> http://socprojects.napier.ac.uk/is/Edinburgh/ 
> 
> I will hold off on adding area committees for now. As far as I can tell they 
> often coincide with community council boundaries, which is helpful if we 
> decide in future they should be added. 
> 
> Saoirse
> 
> On 26 May 2018 at 14:32, SK53  wrote:
> 
> Adding such things tends to be down to local mappers. The best source for 
> accurate boundaries is OS Open Data Boundary Line: this needs a little 
> experience to process well, but IIRC JOSM handles it reasonably well. 
> 
> I don't think area committees, at least in Argyll & Bute, have anything like 
> the same powers and responsibilities as English District Councils (the main 
> admin_level=8 grouping), and technically are committees of the full council 
> just like finance, planning etc., rather than being separate legal entities. 
> (Such powers as are delegated are mentioned alongside the basic delegations 
> to officers needed for effective administration, see A&B's constitution [1]. 
> A good concrete example is that English District Councils have Returning 
> Officers, whereas the A&B Returning Officer is the Head of Customer 
> Services.) Nor am I sure if the area committees have any dedicated staff, 
> although I find it hard to see how they can achieve anything without a 
> minimum of secretarial support. 
> 
> I would therefore suggest these are not formal administrative boundaries (in 
> OSM terms), and certainly the admin_level=8 should be avoided. We don't do 
> well in keeping non-formal admin boundaries separate from other types of 
> boundaries (e.g., wards which are essentially a political boundary determined 
> by the boundary commission, even if ward councillors may get limited budgets 
> and councils may align service provision with the wards). 
> 
> As an interim approach I'd suggest using admin_level=9, but I think we could 
> do with a bit more of a re-think of some of our boundary tagging (the bodies 
> with powers 'devolved' upwards, such as the West Midlands Combined Authority 
> (currently tagged admin_level=6, but an anomaly), is another case. 
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> On 26 May 2018 at 13:48, S M  wrote: 
> 
> Hi, this is my first post on this forum. 
> 
> My question is: is there any reason why community councils in Scotland are 
> not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping in Angus, and I was planning 
> to map the community councils for Angus council area, but I wanted to check 
> first. These community councils do not have as many powers as English civil 
> parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few statutory powers. 
> 
> If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing Angus council 
> area's community councils, and I can do Edinburgh's as well. They would be 
> admin_level=10 to fit with English civil parishes and Welsh communities. It 
> is worth noting that Scotland also has "area committees" which some council 
> areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and Bute etc) have devolved 
> certain powers to. If these were to be mapped they would be admin_level=8 
> presumably. 
> 
> Thanks. 
> Saoirse ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [2]

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Links:
--
[1]
https://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/sites/default/files/council-and-government/constitution-part-c_0.pdf
[2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[S M]

Hi, thanks for all the responses. I have started mapping community councils
in Edinburgh. This link is useful for anyone else planning to do so:
http://socprojects.napier.ac.uk/is/Edinburgh/

I will hold off on adding area committees for now. As far as I can tell
they often coincide with community council boundaries, which is helpful if
we decide in future they should be added.

Saoirse

On 26 May 2018 at 14:32, SK53  wrote:

> Adding such things tends to be down to local mappers. The best source for
> accurate boundaries is OS Open Data Boundary Line: this needs a little
> experience to process well, but IIRC JOSM handles it reasonably well.
>
> I don't think area committees, at least in Argyll & Bute, have anything
> like the same powers and responsibilities as English District Councils (the
> main admin_level=8 grouping), and technically are committees of the full
> council just like finance, planning etc., rather than being separate legal
> entities. (Such powers as are delegated are mentioned alongside the basic
> delegations to officers needed for effective administration, see A&B's
> constitution
> .
> A good concrete example is that English District Councils have Returning
> Officers, whereas the A&B Returning Officer is the Head of Customer
> Services.) Nor am I sure if the area committees have any dedicated staff,
> although I find it hard to see how they can achieve anything without a
> minimum of secretarial support.
>
> I would therefore suggest these are not formal administrative boundaries
> (in OSM terms), and certainly the admin_level=8 should be avoided. We don't
> do well in keeping non-formal admin boundaries separate from other types of
> boundaries (e.g., wards which are essentially a political boundary
> determined by the boundary commission, even if ward councillors may get
> limited budgets and councils may align service provision with the wards).
>
> As an interim approach I'd suggest using admin_level=9, but I think we
> could do with a bit more of a re-think of some of our boundary tagging (the
> bodies with powers 'devolved' upwards, such as the West Midlands Combined
> Authority (currently tagged admin_level=6, but an anomaly), is another case.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 26 May 2018 at 13:48, S M  wrote:
>
>> Hi, this is my first post on this forum.
>>
>> My question is: is there any reason why community councils in Scotland
>> are not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping in Angus, and I was
>> planning to map the community councils for Angus council area, but I wanted
>> to check first. These community councils do not have as many powers as
>> English civil parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few
>> statutory powers.
>>
>> If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing Angus
>> council area's community councils, and I can do Edinburgh's as well. They
>> would be admin_level=10 to fit with English civil parishes and Welsh
>> communities. It is worth noting that Scotland also has "area committees"
>> which some council areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and Bute
>> etc) have devolved certain powers to. If these were to be mapped they would
>> be admin_level=8 presumably.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Saoirse
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[Colin Smale]

Scottish Communities are equivalent to Civil Parishes in England, but
with much fewer powers. The whole of Scotland has been divided into
Communities - there are no "unparished areas" like there are in England.
However, relatively few Communities actually have a Council. In terms of
administrative hierarchy, they come under a Scottish Council, which is
effectively a Unitary Authority. 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_council#Scotland for more
info. 

Concerning the boundaries of Scottish Communities, these are not
included in OS Boundary-Line as such. The data does include "unnamed
polygons" which may correspond to Communities, but I have not found any
documented link. 

Regarding their inclusion in OSM, why not use admin_level=10, in line
with the rest of the UK? 

I agree with Jerry that we need to have a rethink around
admin_level=5/6/8. The regions (admin_level=5) no longer exist as an
administrative entity, so perhaps we should scrap the regions as
boundary=administrative (possibly change to boundary=statistical?) and
use admin_level=5 for the new Combined Authorities. And the Metropolitan
Districts in Merseyside, Greater Manchester etc are sometimes
admin_level=6 (they are effectively, but not legally, Unitary
Authorities) and sometimes admin_level=8 (as subareas of Metropolitan
Counties, which no longer exist as administrative entities). 

Colin

On 2018-05-26 15:32, SK53 wrote:

> Adding such things tends to be down to local mappers. The best source for 
> accurate boundaries is OS Open Data Boundary Line: this needs a little 
> experience to process well, but IIRC JOSM handles it reasonably well. 
> 
> I don't think area committees, at least in Argyll & Bute, have anything like 
> the same powers and responsibilities as English District Councils (the main 
> admin_level=8 grouping), and technically are committees of the full council 
> just like finance, planning etc., rather than being separate legal entities. 
> (Such powers as are delegated are mentioned alongside the basic delegations 
> to officers needed for effective administration, see A&B's constitution [2]. 
> A good concrete example is that English District Councils have Returning 
> Officers, whereas the A&B Returning Officer is the Head of Customer 
> Services.) Nor am I sure if the area committees have any dedicated staff, 
> although I find it hard to see how they can achieve anything without a 
> minimum of secretarial support. 
> 
> I would therefore suggest these are not formal administrative boundaries (in 
> OSM terms), and certainly the admin_level=8 should be avoided. We don't do 
> well in keeping non-formal admin boundaries separate from other types of 
> boundaries (e.g., wards which are essentially a political boundary determined 
> by the boundary commission, even if ward councillors may get limited budgets 
> and councils may align service provision with the wards). 
> 
> As an interim approach I'd suggest using admin_level=9, but I think we could 
> do with a bit more of a re-think of some of our boundary tagging (the bodies 
> with powers 'devolved' upwards, such as the West Midlands Combined Authority 
> (currently tagged admin_level=6, but an anomaly), is another case. 
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> On 26 May 2018 at 13:48, S M  wrote:
> 
>> Hi, this is my first post on this forum. 
>> 
>> My question is: is there any reason why community councils in Scotland are 
>> not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping in Angus, and I was planning 
>> to map the community councils for Angus council area, but I wanted to check 
>> first. These community councils do not have as many powers as English civil 
>> parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few statutory powers. 
>> 
>> If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing Angus council 
>> area's community councils, and I can do Edinburgh's as well. They would be 
>> admin_level=10 to fit with English civil parishes and Welsh communities. It 
>> is worth noting that Scotland also has "area committees" which some council 
>> areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and Bute etc) have devolved 
>> certain powers to. If these were to be mapped they would be admin_level=8 
>> presumably. 
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> Saoirse 
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [1]
> 
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
 

Links:
--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[SK53]

Adding such things tends to be down to local mappers. The best source for
accurate boundaries is OS Open Data Boundary Line: this needs a little
experience to process well, but IIRC JOSM handles it reasonably well.

I don't think area committees, at least in Argyll & Bute, have anything
like the same powers and responsibilities as English District Councils (the
main admin_level=8 grouping), and technically are committees of the full
council just like finance, planning etc., rather than being separate legal
entities. (Such powers as are delegated are mentioned alongside the basic
delegations to officers needed for effective administration, see A&B's
constitution
.
A good concrete example is that English District Councils have Returning
Officers, whereas the A&B Returning Officer is the Head of Customer
Services.) Nor am I sure if the area committees have any dedicated staff,
although I find it hard to see how they can achieve anything without a
minimum of secretarial support.

I would therefore suggest these are not formal administrative boundaries
(in OSM terms), and certainly the admin_level=8 should be avoided. We don't
do well in keeping non-formal admin boundaries separate from other types of
boundaries (e.g., wards which are essentially a political boundary
determined by the boundary commission, even if ward councillors may get
limited budgets and councils may align service provision with the wards).

As an interim approach I'd suggest using admin_level=9, but I think we
could do with a bit more of a re-think of some of our boundary tagging (the
bodies with powers 'devolved' upwards, such as the West Midlands Combined
Authority (currently tagged admin_level=6, but an anomaly), is another case.

Jerry

On 26 May 2018 at 13:48, S M  wrote:

> Hi, this is my first post on this forum.
>
> My question is: is there any reason why community councils in Scotland are
> not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping in Angus, and I was
> planning to map the community councils for Angus council area, but I wanted
> to check first. These community councils do not have as many powers as
> English civil parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few
> statutory powers.
>
> If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing Angus
> council area's community councils, and I can do Edinburgh's as well. They
> would be admin_level=10 to fit with English civil parishes and Welsh
> communities. It is worth noting that Scotland also has "area committees"
> which some council areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and Bute
> etc) have devolved certain powers to. If these were to be mapped they would
> be admin_level=8 presumably.
>
> Thanks.
> Saoirse
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
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[Talk-GB] Scottish community councils

[S M]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum.

My question is: is there any reason why community councils in Scotland are
not mapped? I ask because I do a lot of mapping in Angus, and I was
planning to map the community councils for Angus council area, but I wanted
to check first. These community councils do not have as many powers as
English civil parishes and Welsh communities, but they do have a few
statutory powers.

If they have just not been done yet, I will get started doing Angus council
area's community councils, and I can do Edinburgh's as well. They would be
admin_level=10 to fit with English civil parishes and Welsh communities. It
is worth noting that Scotland also has "area committees" which some council
areas (such as Glasgow, Aberdeenshire, Argyll and Bute etc) have devolved
certain powers to. If these were to be mapped they would be admin_level=8
presumably.

Thanks.
Saoirse
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