Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
On 05/08/2014 15:38, Andy Robinson wrote: Whether its legal is not our concern surely Not really true: So many of the tags used are based around legal regulations: access=* max_speed=* bicycle=no etc... etc... Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
In this case it is not our access to, or use of, the road which may be illegal (the landowner is giving us permission after all, once we hand over the two quid) but the very existence of the road, because it was constructed without the requisite planning permission. On 2014-08-11 11:10, Dave F. wrote: On 05/08/2014 15:38, Andy Robinson wrote: Whether its legal is not our concern surely Not really true: So many of the tags used are based around legal regulations: access=* max_speed=* bicycle=no etc... etc... Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com [1] ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [2] Links: -- [1] http://www.avast.com [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road (going a bit OT)
On 05/08/2014 15:00, Curon Davies wrote: On 5 August 2014 14:25, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: One reason I haven't added it is because it's illegal (AFAIK. The owners of the land local councillor failed to reply to my tweets) definitely has no planning permission. The development isn't illegal, there is no criminal offence (AFAIK), on the other hand it is unlawful. a) Semantics b) Isn't there a statute law which says 'you can't build or open a road without authorisation'? They have produced no proof it's been constructed to DfT/HA standards. AFAIK roads only need to be constructed to this standard if the road is to be adopted, there are numerous developments where the road isn't built to standard, yet they are still mapped on OSM. AFAIK adoption is only the transfer of responsibility for maintenance i.e. from the building contractor to the local municipal authority. The roads, depending on there usage, have to be constructed to various standards. I can't imagine the M6 toll was allowed to get away with rolling out just 150mm thick layer of compacted hardcore. Insurance (all parties) is unclear possibly suspect. Another reason is I don't map everybody's private drive way. Although questionable, the road is opperated by KELSTON TOLL ROAD LIMITED, and therefore would require public liability insurance. Getting insurance is dead easy. These companies love being given money for old rope, (think of extended warranties for your big screen TV). Receiving a payout is another matter. Will _your_ policy compensate if you hit another vehicle on an unlawful road? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road (going a bit OT)
I would hope so, for anyone who has ever been to a village fete and parked in the farmers field. Getting insurance is dead easy. These companies love being given money for old rope, (think of extended warranties for your big screen TV). Receiving a payout is another matter. Will _your_ policy compensate if you hit another vehicle on an unlawful road? Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road (going a bit OT)
On 11/08/14 10:33, Dave F. wrote: On 05/08/2014 15:00, Curon Davies wrote: On 5 August 2014 14:25, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: One reason I haven't added it is because it's illegal (AFAIK. The owners of the land local councillor failed to reply to my tweets) definitely has no planning permission. The development isn't illegal, there is no criminal offence (AFAIK), on the other hand it is unlawful. a) Semantics b) Isn't there a statute law which says 'you can't build or open a road without authorisation'? It seems to me that this is being driven by one particular application of the map, motor vehicle routing. The road exists. It is possible to get permission to use it if you are under 3.5T. Therefore I would say that something like this is valid: highway=unclassified; motor_vehicles=yes/permissive; hgv=no; fee=yes is necessary. If that results in routing applications using it in a way that voids insurance, maybe add something like mib_approved=no. Buildings certainly should still be mapped, even if they don't have planning permission (four years for construction and 10 for use are more permanent than most shop tenancies). Settlements should be mapped, even if some other country disputes their legality. More generally, though, it is dangerous for something like OSM to claim authority on the legal status of any object. Locally, you put yourself at risk of being sued when you turn out to be wrong. Internationally, it increases the pressure to ban it from countries involved with border disputes. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
Interestingly, Google show it on their map. Jason (UniEagle) From: Andy Robinson Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 4:00 PM To: 'Richard Symonds' ; 'Andy Mabbett' Cc: mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road Councils are hog tied by over zealous legislation (and in this case clearly pissed that they are not getting the excellent publicity). I applaud the pragmatism and the balls for those who have put their hands in their pockets and found a temporary fix. It doesn’t have planning permission, and insurance is questionable but do we care? I like to take a calculated risk now and again. Cheers Andy From: Richard Symonds [mailto:richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk] Sent: 04 August 2014 12:33 To: Andy Mabbett Cc: Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road More info at http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/streets-and-highway-maintenance/roadworks/major-transport-schemes/a431-kelston-road-council - The Council has no details to confirm the toll road design meets safety standards and no evidence that insurances are in place for any member of the public who use the private toll road. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents. On 4 August 2014 12:21, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Have the Bath Bristol folks picked up on this one? http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story -22064579-detail/story.html tag: legality=none insurance_validity=dubious -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Have the Bath Bristol folks picked up on this one? http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story -22064579-detail/story.html tag: legality=none insurance_validity=dubious -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
More info at http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/streets-and-highway-maintenance/roadworks/major-transport-schemes/a431-kelston-road-council - The Council has no details to confirm the toll road design meets safety standards and no evidence that insurances are in place for any member of the public who use the private toll road. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 4 August 2014 12:21, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Have the Bath Bristol folks picked up on this one? http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story -22064579-detail/story.html tag: legality=none insurance_validity=dubious -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
Temporary roads need planning permission - and although I'm not sure about this, I imagine it would need public liability insurance etc too. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 4 August 2014 12:29, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: why should it be illegal? On 2014-08-04 13:21, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Have the Bath Bristol folks picked up on this one? http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story -22064579-detail/story.html tag: legality=none insurance_validity=dubious ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
On 04/08/14 12:32, Richard Symonds wrote: The Council has no details to confirm the toll road design meets safety standards and no evidence that insurances are in place for any member of the public who use the private toll road. Just been listening to the news report on the road. Anybody mapped it yet? I get the impression that it is a speculative venture that may well not actually make a profit since the road apparently cost £150k and the overheads of charging will also eat into any profit. The council are concerned about the development since they have to move 4000 tonnes of stone to the problem site, so did not want the increased cost of managing that on to of fixing the road as fast as possible. Perhaps another expense the toll road owner may have to agree to to get retrospective planning permission. It show how poor the road systems are in some areas of the country. Access to Bath could really do with a proper set of dual carriageways from the M4 and going across Bristol to the M5. I frequent that area on business quite often, and am using tertiary roads most of the time simply to get into one side of the distruption, even before the road was closed. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road
Councils are hog tied by over zealous legislation (and in this case clearly pissed that they are not getting the excellent publicity). I applaud the pragmatism and the balls for those who have put their hands in their pockets and found a temporary fix. It doesn’t have planning permission, and insurance is questionable but do we care? I like to take a calculated risk now and again. Cheers Andy From: Richard Symonds [mailto:richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk] Sent: 04 August 2014 12:33 To: Andy Mabbett Cc: Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road More info at http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/streets-and-highway-maintenance/roadworks/major-transport-schemes/a431-kelston-road-council - The Council has no details to confirm the toll road design meets safety standards and no evidence that insurances are in place for any member of the public who use the private toll road. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents. On 4 August 2014 12:21, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: Have the Bath Bristol folks picked up on this one? http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story -22064579-detail/story.html tag: legality=none insurance_validity=dubious -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
