Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Colm Moore]

Hi,

Not so much tagging for the editor as pointing out the proposal is unsupported 
in OSM's default view.

Colm

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:26:36 +
From: Andy Mabbett 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of
old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Colm Moore  wrote:

> Note that subject:wikipedia=* doesn't create a hyperlink like wikipedia=*
> does. I'll hold off making changes for the moment.

"tagging for the editor" is even less useful than "tagging for the render".


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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 13:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> In this case see right side of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12892

Wikidata uses dynamic page layout: what is on the right for you is
below other components for me, for example.

See also: 
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk/spatial-references-to-page-layout-considered-harmful/

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

> From what I have heard there are sometimes (or often depending on the
> source) mismatches between the subject of the Wikidata item and the
> OSM object.

People enter all sorts of bad data into OSM; that's not something
specific to Wikidata IDs.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 20, 2019, 1:01 PM by marc.ge...@gmail.com:

> AFAIK, one should use the main language of the area in which the
> feature is located. I think it is supposed to follow the language used
> to determine the name tag.
> So for the Belgian/Flemish town Antwerpen (Antwerp in English), you
> should use wikipedia=nl:Antwerpen (stad)
> This links to the Wikipedia page: > 
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerpen_(stad) 
> 
> Wikipedia knows that the English page is
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerp 
> >  (perhaps by using Wikidata
> internally)
>
Yes, the most useful part of Wikidata is linking Wikipedia articles 
in various languages with each other.

In this case see right side of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12892 

And Wikipedia is using this data to display


> This link and links to over a hundred other languages is found on the left
>

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Marc Gemis]

> > you can find linked Wikipedia articles with slightly different subjects
> > in different languages.
>
> All of these are yet more good reasons to tag with Wikidata, rather
> than Wikipedia.

From what I have heard there are sometimes (or often depending on the
source) mismatches between the subject of the Wikidata item and the
OSM object.
Not a problem if people only need some additional information and can
see that both subjects do not match entirely, but poses problems if a
program combines OSM and Wikidata data.

m

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

> > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 10:53 AM  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How do you intend to deal with bi-lingual areas where having Wikipedia 
> > > > links in both languages is an important cultural consideration?

> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 12:45 PM  wrote:

> >  How is 'the proper' language decided?

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 12:01, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> There is no need to add more than 100 Wikipedia links (the number of
> languages for which there is an article on Antwerpen) to OSM.
>
> This is a problem for Brussels, where OSM has no real preference for
> language. Should be point to the Dutch or French version?
>
> you can find linked Wikipedia articles with slightly different subjects
> in different languages.

All of these are yet more good reasons to tag with Wikidata, rather
than Wikipedia.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Colm Moore  wrote:

> Note that subject:wikipedia=* doesn't create a hyperlink like wikipedia=*
> does. I'll hold off making changes for the moment.

"tagging for the editor" is even less useful than "tagging for the render".

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 18:12, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Mar 19, 2019, 5:04 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> > Can you do this outside Ireland also?

> Are you interested in Ireland, part of the Ireland or some other part of the 
> world?

I'm in the UK (so please do that), but have a global interest in
improving OSM/Wikidata+Wikipedia integration.

> (in fact this bot edit is result of project that was about listing invalid
> wikipedia and wikidata tags).

Is that documented, please?

Thanks also for your other answers; duly noted.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 18:06, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Mar 19, 2019, 5:11 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:
>
> > This is why its batter to tag with Wikidata IDs.

"better"!

> My favorite form is both wikipedia and wikidata tag,
> wikipedia tag is human readable while wikidata is more stable
> and allows easily follow article name changes.

Good editing tools will show the human-readable label from Wikidata.

IIRC JOSM does this through a "Wikipedia" plugin.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Marc Gemis]

AFAIK, one should use the main language of the area in which the
feature is located. I think it is supposed to follow the language used
to determine the name tag.
So for the Belgian/Flemish town Antwerpen (Antwerp in English), you
should use wikipedia=nl:Antwerpen (stad)
This links to the Wikipedia page: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerpen_(stad)
Wikipedia knows that the English page is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerp (perhaps by using Wikidata
internally)
This link and links to over a hundred other languages is found on the left

So either the data consumer or Wikipedia should be able to direct you
immediately to the English page if your browser settings (or app
settings) indicate that you prefer English over Dutch.
I don't know whether Wikipedia actually does this.

There is no need to add more than 100 Wikipedia links (the number of
languages for which there is an article on Antwerpen) to OSM.

This is a problem for Brussels, where OSM has no real preference for
language. Should be point to the Dutch or French version?

Note that people pointed out in the past that you can find linked
Wikipedia articles with slightly different subjects in different
languages.

I am still not really happy with this, but hey, if this is what the
majority wants, I'm not going to be a dissident.

m.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 12:45 PM  wrote:
>
> How do I tag for this situation?
>
>  How is 'the proper' language decided?
>
> Phil
>
> On Wednesday, 20 March 2019, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > The reply that I got more than a year ago when the Mapbox team was
> > doing a similar quest, was that the Wikipedia pages for multiple
> > languages are linked and that the data consumer should display the
> > page in the proper language.
> >
> > m.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 10:53 AM  wrote:
> > >
> > > How do you intend to deal with bi-lingual areas where having Wikipedia 
> > > links in both languages is an important cultural consideration?
> > >
> > > Phil (trigpoint)
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, 19 March 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mar 19, 2019, 3:10 PM by r...@technomancy.org:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure why one would bother with this, but whatever.
> > > > >
> > > > It went as follows:
> > > >
> > > > - I made small prototype tool listing tourism attractions based on OSM 
> > > > data
> > > > - during development I discovered massive amount of broken wikipedia 
> > > > and wikidata tags
> > > > - due to scale and that problems were fixable by automatic edit I made 
> > > > a program for bot edits
> > > > (library parts ended on 
> > > > https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer 
> > > >  and
> > > > https://github.com/matkoniecz/wikibrain 
> > > >  )
> > > > - I made bot edits that fixed tens of thousands objects in Poland
> > > > - in most cases (except one depending on links to TERYT, official 
> > > > government dataset in Poland)
> > > > scripts can be used in other regions
> > > > - so now I am checking whatever I would be allowed to run this script 
> > > > in various places,
> > > > including ones where some tagging issues are quite rare and would not 
> > > > justify
> > > > writing and testing an OSM bot - but running existing one is IMHO a 
> > > > good idea
> > > >
> > > > > Are they any cases where there are more than wikipedia:XX tag, and 
> > > > > what will you do in that case? What will the wikipedia tag be?
> > > > >
> > > > In case of existing matching wikipedia tag - there is no problem and 
> > > > wikipedia:XX tags
> > > > will be removed.
> > > >
> > > > Otherwise object will be skipped for a manual review.
> > > >
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[phil]

How do I tag for this situation?

 How is 'the proper' language decided? 

Phil 

On Wednesday, 20 March 2019, Marc Gemis wrote:
> The reply that I got more than a year ago when the Mapbox team was
> doing a similar quest, was that the Wikipedia pages for multiple
> languages are linked and that the data consumer should display the
> page in the proper language.
> 
> m.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 10:53 AM  wrote:
> >
> > How do you intend to deal with bi-lingual areas where having Wikipedia 
> > links in both languages is an important cultural consideration?
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> > On Tuesday, 19 March 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > >
> > > Mar 19, 2019, 3:10 PM by r...@technomancy.org:
> > >
> > > > I'm not sure why one would bother with this, but whatever.
> > > >
> > > It went as follows:
> > >
> > > - I made small prototype tool listing tourism attractions based on OSM 
> > > data
> > > - during development I discovered massive amount of broken wikipedia and 
> > > wikidata tags
> > > - due to scale and that problems were fixable by automatic edit I made a 
> > > program for bot edits
> > > (library parts ended on 
> > > https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer 
> > >  and
> > > https://github.com/matkoniecz/wikibrain 
> > >  )
> > > - I made bot edits that fixed tens of thousands objects in Poland
> > > - in most cases (except one depending on links to TERYT, official 
> > > government dataset in Poland)
> > > scripts can be used in other regions
> > > - so now I am checking whatever I would be allowed to run this script in 
> > > various places,
> > > including ones where some tagging issues are quite rare and would not 
> > > justify
> > > writing and testing an OSM bot - but running existing one is IMHO a good 
> > > idea
> > >
> > > > Are they any cases where there are more than wikipedia:XX tag, and what 
> > > > will you do in that case? What will the wikipedia tag be?
> > > >
> > > In case of existing matching wikipedia tag - there is no problem and 
> > > wikipedia:XX tags
> > > will be removed.
> > >
> > > Otherwise object will be skipped for a manual review.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Talk-ie mailing list
> > > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> > >
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Marc Gemis]

The reply that I got more than a year ago when the Mapbox team was
doing a similar quest, was that the Wikipedia pages for multiple
languages are linked and that the data consumer should display the
page in the proper language.

m.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 10:53 AM  wrote:
>
> How do you intend to deal with bi-lingual areas where having Wikipedia links 
> in both languages is an important cultural consideration?
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On Tuesday, 19 March 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> >
> > Mar 19, 2019, 3:10 PM by r...@technomancy.org:
> >
> > > I'm not sure why one would bother with this, but whatever.
> > >
> > It went as follows:
> >
> > - I made small prototype tool listing tourism attractions based on OSM data
> > - during development I discovered massive amount of broken wikipedia and 
> > wikidata tags
> > - due to scale and that problems were fixable by automatic edit I made a 
> > program for bot edits
> > (library parts ended on 
> > https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer 
> >  and
> > https://github.com/matkoniecz/wikibrain 
> >  )
> > - I made bot edits that fixed tens of thousands objects in Poland
> > - in most cases (except one depending on links to TERYT, official 
> > government dataset in Poland)
> > scripts can be used in other regions
> > - so now I am checking whatever I would be allowed to run this script in 
> > various places,
> > including ones where some tagging issues are quite rare and would not 
> > justify
> > writing and testing an OSM bot - but running existing one is IMHO a good 
> > idea
> >
> > > Are they any cases where there are more than wikipedia:XX tag, and what 
> > > will you do in that case? What will the wikipedia tag be?
> > >
> > In case of existing matching wikipedia tag - there is no problem and 
> > wikipedia:XX tags
> > will be removed.
> >
> > Otherwise object will be skipped for a manual review.
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-ie mailing list
> > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> >
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[phil]

How do you intend to deal with bi-lingual areas where having Wikipedia links in 
both languages is an important cultural consideration? 

Phil (trigpoint)

On Tuesday, 19 March 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> 
> Mar 19, 2019, 3:10 PM by r...@technomancy.org:
> 
> > I'm not sure why one would bother with this, but whatever.
> >
> It went as follows:
> 
> - I made small prototype tool listing tourism attractions based on OSM data
> - during development I discovered massive amount of broken wikipedia and 
> wikidata tags
> - due to scale and that problems were fixable by automatic edit I made a 
> program for bot edits
> (library parts ended on 
> https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer 
>  and
> https://github.com/matkoniecz/wikibrain 
>  )
> - I made bot edits that fixed tens of thousands objects in Poland
> - in most cases (except one depending on links to TERYT, official government 
> dataset in Poland)
> scripts can be used in other regions
> - so now I am checking whatever I would be allowed to run this script in 
> various places,
> including ones where some tagging issues are quite rare and would not justify
> writing and testing an OSM bot - but running existing one is IMHO a good idea
> 
> > Are they any cases where there are more than wikipedia:XX tag, and what 
> > will you do in that case? What will the wikipedia tag be?
> >
> In case of existing matching wikipedia tag - there is no problem and 
> wikipedia:XX tags
> will be removed.
> 
> Otherwise object will be skipped for a manual review.
> 
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>

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