Re: [Talk-ko] Result of survey about Korean name of railway station.

[Max]

Good idea! I think both challenges are relatively easy and fun.

max


On 30.11.18 19:27, Martijn van Exel wrote:

Perhaps this thread helps remind people :D

I can ‘feature’ one of them for a while if you think that may help?

Martijn


On Nov 30, 2018, at 11:24 AM, Max  wrote:

On 30.11.18 17:23, Martijn van Exel wrote:

By the way, there are currently 2 Korea specific challenges on MapRoulette, are 
these still relevant?
Bridges: https://maproulette.org/mr3/browse/challenges/403
Junctions: https://maproulette.org/mr3/browse/challenges/1460


Yes they are, but it is just so much work, they never seem to get any closer to 
be completed...

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Re: [Talk-ko] Result of survey about Korean name of railway station.

[Max]

On 30.11.18 17:23, Martijn van Exel wrote:
By the way, there are currently 2 Korea specific challenges on 
MapRoulette, are these still relevant?

Bridges: https://maproulette.org/mr3/browse/challenges/403
Junctions: https://maproulette.org/mr3/browse/challenges/1460


Yes they are, but it is just so much work, they never seem to get any 
closer to be completed...


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Re: [Talk-ko] promote mailinglist in ID

[Max]

Any comment?

Also: wouldn't it be better (redundancy) if there would be at least one 
more admin to this mailinglist? Maybe a korean native speaker?


On 28.05.2018 12:14, Max wrote:
After submitting a changeset ID shows on the left side some ways to get 
in touch with the community. This list is defined in a github.
Currently the Telegram Supergroup is promoted there while this official 
mailinglist is lacking.


https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/tree/master/resources/asia/korea 



Since they ask for a contact email address, I suppose Andrew Errington 
should file an issue

https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/issues/new


m.

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Re: [Talk-ko] Copy of thread reagrding redactions due to copyright violations in North Korea

[Max]

On the website http://38northdigitalatlas.org/ they write:

"This project is in a beta development phase. The ArcGIS platform allows 
users to search the data by name (in English and Korean) for cities, 
villages, factories, schools, government offices, restaurants, shops, 
markets, etc. However, because this data is generally derived from North 
Korean sources, Korean and English spellings can differ from South 
Korean protocol.


Although there is already a significant amount of data available in this 
portal, we have much more still to be processed. Over time, periodic 
updates will be made to the atlas of both location data and satellite 
imagery layers.


38 North would like to thank the programmers at i-cubed, and our 
partners at ScapeWare3d and Airbus Space and Defense for their help in 
designing and building this portal. 38 North is also grateful for 
generous support from the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the John 
D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation for developing this important 
digital resource.
Copyright: The material in the “38 North DPRK Digital Atlas” is 
copyright protected by the US-Korea Institute at the Johns Hopkins 
School of Advanced International Studies, 38 North and Curtis Melvin. It 
is expressly forbidden to copy this material or use it in any other 
format. Licensing options are available. For details, please contact 
thirtyeightno...@gmail.com."



So basically they rip off DPRK official information to put it under 
their copyright. I bought a printed map in DPRK, will scan and provide 
it somwere.



On 04.06.2018 15:51, Changwoo Ryu wrote:

It's very sad. I have seen USKI at Johns Hopkins recently in Korean
newspapers; USKI has been mostly funded by the ROK government since
its beginning. (Only recently the funding stopped.) So practically
that 38north's map data has been built using ROK taxpayers' money.

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Re: [Talk-ko] Copy of thread reagrding redactions due to copyright violations in North Korea

[Max]

on the 38north website it says:
"38 North is a project of The Henry L. Stimson Center."

On 04.06.2018 15:51, Changwoo Ryu wrote:

It's very sad. I have seen USKI at Johns Hopkins recently in Korean
newspapers; USKI has been mostly funded by the ROK government since
its beginning. (Only recently the funding stopped.) So practically
that 38north's map data has been built using ROK taxpayers' money.

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[Talk-ko] Telegram (was: Re: Romanisation: a solution)

[Max]

I agree on this assessment of Telegram as a platform. However, it is 
very useful as a low-entry barrier place for casual discussion, quick 
question and dialogue type conversation that are harder in email, that 
requires a style that resembles more a letter exchange.


The mailinglist is the place where anything consensus forming is and 
will be taking place. It is also better for more complex issues.


The Telegram group is not meant as a replacement, but rather a 
complement to the mailinglist. Yes that fragments the discussion in 
smaller groups, but I think that's something we can live with. More 
problematic would be if discussion only takes place in a meduim that is 
unknown tou younger users and seems overly complicated and difficult to 
set up. Because let's face it: email only is a comfortable medium if you 
know what an email client is and you can use automatic filters, 
thread-view, etc. Mailinglists are another abstraction on top of this 
that the pokemon generation is not comfortable with. I don't even try to 
read the 19 mailinglists I am subscribed to on a mobile device, While 
it's entertaining to read the Telegram chat on a phone.


my 2 ct.

m.

On 2017년 10월 26일 13:20, Andrew Errington wrote:


Regarding the osmKorea group on telegram.me  I think 
it should not be promoted for two reasons.  Firstly, it seems that the 
messages can only be seen with the Telegram app.  They are not visible 
on a webpage therefore no-one can read any discussion or contribute 
without the app.  Secondly, the OSM community in Korea is small.  Not 
many people are subscribed to this list (Talk-ko) and using Telegram 
will fragment discussions further.  I suppose there is a third reason, 
and that is the most popular chat program in Korea is Kakao Talk.


In summary, I support changing ko_rm to ko-Latn, but I don't support 
using Telegram for discussion.


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Re: [Talk-ko] Romanisation: a solution

[Max]

Agree, data consumers should read the tag case insensitive, just in 
case, but for tagging we should follow one recommendation and that 
should be -Latn


On 2017년 10월 26일 23:47, Lukas Sommer wrote:

Makes sense!

(I’m not sure about lowercase. I would rather opt for ko-Latn because
also also sr-Latn uses titlecase.)
Lukas Sommer


2017-10-26 3:06 GMT+00:00 Maarten van den Hoven :

Dear OSM editors,


This email proposes a solution to the Korean and Japanese romanisation
tagging issue. Since this topic concerns both Korea and Japan it is sent to
their respective mailing lists.

The tag for romanised korean is currently "name:ko_rm". However, this is not
the international standard. "ko_rm" was most likely chosen a long time ago
because people at the time were unformiliar with the global standard as seen
here (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Korea_Naming_Convention). The
global standard as defined by the Internet Engineering Task Force here
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47) and backed by W3C, Unicode, ECMA is
"ko-Latn" instead of "ko_rm". Adopting a global standard solves confusion
over the use of the tag
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Korea).

This talk has been going on for the past years as seen by the above links
and this one ->
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.ko/204
However, I was unable to find arguments in defense of the "ko_rm" tag.

Therefore, I suggest an edit of the OSM database (following the official
procedure as defined here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct) of
changing all "name:ko_rm" tags to "name:ko-Latn", like Serbia did in the
past as well (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Serbia).

Before this change is pushed it is of course important to see if anyone has
objections or other reasons why the "ko_rm" tag was chosen over the
"ko-Latn" tag.

We encourage editors in Korea to join the OSM Korea Telegram chat group here
https://telegram.me/osmKorea.

Kind regards.

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Re: [Talk-ko] Fwd: MapRoulette Challenge: Korean junctions

[Max]

Hi 느림보 and thank you for joining this maproulette challenge.
I am the author of it.

The original nodes have the format
name=라라교 (Lalakyo)
name:en=Lalakyo
name:ko_rm=Lalakyo

My intention was not to lose any information which is already there. 
Upon discussion on the list, it was discouraged to do translations into 
English. On the wiki, it is discouraged to do transliterations.


So my thinking was to change as little as possible while preserving as 
much information from the original import as possible. So above example 
would become


junction=yes
name=라라사거리
name:ko=라라사거리
name:ko_rm=Lalasagori

off cause the ko_rm really is a legacy key/value, I left it there out of 
respect for those who want it there and put it there in the first place. 
I removed :en because it is in 99 % identical with ko_rm and was not 
English in the first place. ko_rm is not a requirement, but it is 
information which is already there.


I'm against putting the "English" version ther which you can find on 
Korean Street signs. In your example (the linked photo) it's 
Yeongdonggyo(Br) which is a horrible butchery of language. First of all 
there is a missing space before the parenthesis and then it is kind of 
like "Yeongdong bridge (Bridge)" On the pircture there is no translation 
or romanization for the junction (Interesting, everything else is sort 
of translated)


Anyways, since there is currently no map that uses a mechanical way to 
do the romainzations, I would say that it maks sense to give those 
legacy manually transliterated idioms a home and put them in the 
database. Not ideal, but out of respect for those who were reluctant to 
to remove the "English" from the name= in the first place and also it is 
similar to how it is in Japan and other places.


Translating to English is tricky. Is it a junction, intersection, 
crossroad or crossroads? I don't want to make this descision. Is a 시장삼고리 
a Sijang Crossroad or a Market intersection? Honestly, I think this task 
is impossible.


Max

On 2017년 03월 20일 15:38, 느림보 wrote:

I joined MapRoulette today and found a challenge whose name is Korean
junctions.

Description of the project is below:

/Junctions and their names are very important in Korea and Japan,
because people will reference those (instead of the street names) to
describe a route or location. A junction with a name will be
rendered in Mapnik, but unfortunately many junctions have been
imported as single points close to the actual junction./


It suggests two fixed one is related to point and the other is naming rule.

Help fix junctions mapped as points in Korea.

 1. Junctions need to be the joining node of several ways, not a point.
 2. In ID, you can just move the node to the actual intersection.

Make sure the naming is correct.

Example: OLD (wrong): |name:사동삼거리 (Sadongsamgeori)|

NEW: |name:사동삼거리|, |name:ko_rm:Sadongsamgeori| |name:ko:사동삼거리|

I have some concerns related to the challenge.

Many Korean junctions were imported using mp2osm, however I looks like
there was no crosscheck after the importment. When I joined OSM
community, I modified some junctions in my local area (Gunpo, Anyang,
and Uiwang), and I found many POIs indicate un-named junction. (I
justified it using street sign on the road.) -- 17 of 58 POIs were
classified to the case and I deleted them.

Second, naming rule. Discussion on the naming rule is on-going. It is
going to have a consensus on some cases. Korean name into name / name:ko
tag. English name into name:en tag. However discussion on other topics
are on-going.

name:ko_rm is also on discussion -- some topics are
1) It is transliteration of name tag. Should we manage this tag manually?
2) Where should we write down Romanizeed form of untranslatable name?
For example. "name:en : Seoul." Is it OK to write down some
romanized form into name:en?



From above description, I suggest following things

1) Add task to check existance of the named junction.

You can find name of a junction top of road sign or near the junction
eg)
http://pds.joins.com/news/component/htmlphoto_mmdata/201402/04/htm_2014020411231837003790.jpg
(청담사거리)
<http://pds.joins.com/news/component/htmlphoto_mmdata/201402/04/htm_2014020411231837003790.jpg>

2) Do not require to add name:ko_rm tag. Instead replace its severity to
optional.

I think it would be better to encourage to add English name of juctions.
Some of road signs displays English name, in other cases it can be
easily translatable except one arguable thing.
There may be dis-agreements on translation of '삼거리 (3-way junction:
junction)' or '사거리 (4-way juction: intersection)' or '오거리 (5-way
junction: crossroads)' as description on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention> because
offical english words for 삼거리, 사거리, 오거리 are junction 

Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[Max]

On 2017년 03월 05일 09:00, 최규성 wrote:

I'm very interested in this dialog thinking it important. However, it
makes me confused on what the point is. To me, the points are coming as
1) How to Romanize Korean tags
2) Labeling convention for place names (or name field).


I think none of the above is disputed. We agreed on a scheme which is 
represented on the wiki, but the actual map has not been converted in 
all places due to the huge amount of data to be changed.



*1. How to Romanize Korean Tags*

Regarding this issue, there is an agreed practice in Korea. Korean
government has led the standardization that should be officially applied
to road signs, national basemaps, etc. The Romanization standard is
established by National Institute of Korean Language (NIKL), which is
found as below:

[In Korean] -

https://www.korean.go.kr/front/page/pageView.do?page_id=P000148_id=99

[In English] - https://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do


(Nrimbo's Google Drive document seems to be consistent with this though
lack of source referral.)


That's a nice reference, but again, it's not really what the discussion 
is about at the moment.



For use with mapping, a practical guideline is prepared by National
Geographic Information Institute (NGII), the national mapping agency of
Korea. It is well documented as linked below.

Toponymic guidelines for map and other editors for international use:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxngjd18jtbsm1q/Toponymy_Guidelines.pdf?dl=0

According to this, we can decide whether we have to choose 'Daehak-ro'
or 'University street'. My answer is 'Daehak-ro'.


Nobody wants to romanize 대학로 into University-Street, because that is a 
translation into English, not a romanization.


let's go through all the fields again:

name=대학로

that's the name of the street.

name:ko=대학로

that's the name of the street in Korean. A bit redundant, but it will 
help the transition.


name:ko_rm=Daehak-ro

Romanized Korean. It is a transliteration. You could also make one for 
Thai, Arabic etc. Transliterations are not recommended to do. The 
documents you liked prove that transliterations are very systematic and 
follow strict rules. In effect something that a computer perfectly can 
do, probably with less errors than a human. Read this:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
So name:ko_rm has two issues: 1. it should be name:ko-Latn 2. It should 
not be there at all (in most cases, where it could be done programmatically)


name:en=University-Street

That's the English translation of the street. Something that I don't see 
the point adding for most cases. If it has the same content like ko_rm I 
usually remove this tag when I come across it.



=

Now it's up to the renderer to take this data and show it as it pleases 
(the eye).


On a Korean map:  대학로
On a romanized map: Daehak-ro
On a bilingual map: 대학로 - Daehak-ro
or: 대학로 (Daehak-ro)
or:

  대학로
Daehak-ro

=


Until now, we have discussed and agreed upon the schema of data, which 
is on the wiki.

We have agreed that we want to transition to this new scheme.
We only argue about HOW this should be done.


Here is one interesting online map service that exemplarily shows the
Romanized names. It is a Road Name Address Information System service by
Korean government - http://m1.juso.go.kr/eng/standardmap/MapIndex.do .
Here, we can identify how "Daehak-ro" and other street names are labelled.

But, I have a concern on how we make the awareness sure to every OSM
mapper of this standardized Romanization practice.


Again: IMHO the best would be to leave this to the renderer.


*2. Labeling convention for place names (or name field)*

I strongly support the idea of labelling the name by Korean and English
combination.


You are talking about the renderer, that is out of the scope of the 
current discussion.



As a result, it is against the idea of Yongmin. If OSM was designed only
for Koreans and by Koreans, it would have been agreeable. But, as many
of us would agree, OSM is designed as a global map for everyone in the
world. The map of Italy region is also lack of something. The Korean who
can't understand Italian (like me) becomes illiterate when I see it,
which needs to be improved. In this regard, I evaluate that OSM labeling
style for Korea region is more advanced than that for Italy.


OpenStreetMap is a database. The map you see on openstreetmap.org is 
just an example rendering of this database.



But, I have additional request of modifying the current style. My
suggestion is to separate Korean\English by line breaker AND to remove
the parentheses (round brackets). The parenthesis is useless.


This is exactly why we need the current database to be cleaned up. 
Because your favourite rendering style is easy to implement when the 
fields contain separate data in separate fields. Right now we have two 
different informations in the same name= tag.
If you just change name="대학로 (Daehak-ro)" into name="대학로 

Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[Max]

On 2017년 03월 04일 08:35, 느림보 wrote:

I opened new thread to discuss automatic modification of name tag.



Many POIs in Korean region have their name tag in /한국어(English)/form.
Rule was changed but there was no action for modifying legacy names. It
was the biggest harassment when I joined the community: “There are two
naming rules. /한국어(English)/form is using without any documented
guideline. Which style should I follow? Can I modify /한국어(English)
/form to /한국어/form?”


I wouldn't say that there was no action. New items since have been added 
in the new scheme and some of the old ones have been modified to match 
the new scheme.


I also believe the process is kind of slow and unsatisfying. May be some 
kind of (semi-)automated process of conversion would indeed be good.


That said, I think there are valid objections to it too.
1. From what I have been seeing in the main talk list there is a great 
opposition against automated edits, and a strong belief in the crowd 
approach.
2. Many POIs in Korea are outdated and not valid any more. In the 
problematic import, there are all kinds of hospitals and clinics that 
are closed by now. Editing those would "mark them like new" and it would 
not be visible immedately that they might not be valid any more
3. There are other related issues that should be discussed and adressed 
too and possibly solved at the same time.


The current scheme is not perfect either. There are some issues to be 
discussed.


name=한국어
name:ko=한국어
name:en=Roman-ized
name:ko_rm=romanized

name=한국어 and name:ko=한국어 are kind of redudnant, but it is probably 
neccessary to help transitioning. Also it is the same way in Japan.


name:en=Roman-ized and name:ko_rm=romanized ok, I made a little joke, 
because in 80% of the cases they are identical and they should not.
That something is written in Latin characters doesn't make it English. 
Even if you capitalize it and write it in several words.
In my opinion the field en thould not be there if it isn't English. I 
regulary delete this field if it is identical to ko_rm


There are some elements like country, city or some subwaystations that 
have their name written in all kinds of languages in the OSM database, 
but this practice is questionable, It might be handled better in 
something like wikidata.


ko_rm should actually be renamed in bulk to ko-Latn, possibly in 
cooperation and discussion with the japanese community who have the same 
problem with ja_rm that should be ja-Latn


See here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
the next paragraph in this wiki page is interesting too. We should avoid 
transliterations. According to this rule 90% of the name:ko_rm and 
name:en tags should go.


My opersonal rule of thumb is that I add the name:en tag only if the 
romanization could not be done automatically, or the original name is 
indeed English (most of the time it's both actually) like a Starbucks 
for example.


Most of the time the romanization follows a strict rule, meaning it can 
be done much better and accurately if done by the renderer and doesn't 
need to swell the database.


TL;DR
I agree, there should be some automatic or maybe semi-automatic process 
to clean up the map/database, but we need to discuss the issues here 
before and maybe even drag this discussion to the main email list to get 
a feedback..


m.







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[Talk-ko] Someone is removing "sensitive" information

[Max]

Just stumbled upon tha the NIS headquarter and some other objects have 
been deleted again. That's at least the 3rd time now.


user woodpecker has already left a message on some of the changesets.

Comment from woodpeck 12 days ago

Hello, in this changeset you deleted y couple of buildings and your 
comment says that you deleted them because they are in a security area. 
However, OSM does not generally respect specific national security 
interests with regards to mapping. If a building is visible on aerial 
imagery, then it may be mapped in OSM, no matter whether it is in a 
security area or not. Deleting such a building, as you have done here, 
can be interpreted as an act of vandalism on OSM. Please don't do that.


Some of the affected changesets:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159152
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159124 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159152 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159410 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159815 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159870 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46159916


probably more.

the changeset comment is 건물삭제(보안구역) which translates to Removing 
buildings (Restricted areas)


Questions:
1. what are good tools to find more of this?
2. what are the right steps to do if vandalism like this is detected?
3. can this be avoided in the future?
4. is there a tool to get notified if someone changes a specific area?
5. who has authority to revert? should I try to do this, but I might 
miss something.


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Re: [Talk-ko] Mailinglist in Korean?

[Max]

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=95

I personally think that it's not worth it to worry about those 
prohibitions, because North Koreans don't have that access to the 
internet anyways. The Forum might be a place though where some armchair 
mapper asks questions regarding mapping North Korea, so. Anyways, just a 
thought, not so important. Good we have that forum now, maybe a welcome 
post would be nice! (and something the search engines can index..)



On 2017년 03월 01일 03:31, 느림보 wrote:

I asked to open users: South Korea forum. I limited region to South
Korea because un-authorized communication between people in South Korea
and people in North Korea is prohibited in both Countries.


2017-03-01 10:41 GMT+09:00 느림보 <nri...@gmail.com
<mailto:nri...@gmail.com>>:

    Opps, just Max said about interface language of mailman. I
misunderstood his suggestion, so I just tried to describe barriers
that I felt. (mailman and conversation language.) As 최규성 said I
think interface language is not a big deal.


2017-02-28 23:23 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>:

Well, that's another big discussion about mailinglists vs. other
means of communication.

Some people for example prefer forums over email lists. There is
no "user: Korea" folder in the official osm forums
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/ <https://forum.openstreetmap.org/>

I'm not a fan of forums myself* so I am not volunteering to be
admin for that, but maybe someone else here wants to ask for the
creation of "users: Korea" there?

*exept https://www.discourse.org that one I found pretty amazing



On 2017년 02월 28일 13:35, 느림보 wrote:

>From systematic view, I think two reasons made few Korean speaking
members. One is clearly language. However, a mailing list
itself would
make it worse. I think a mailing list is one of the lease common
communication system in my country. People might don’t know
how to join
and act in this system. It looks like foreign culture. (I
don’t know,
too. I tried to response some previous threads but I
hesitated because I
don’t know what is impolite attitude in a mailing list.)



It might be very difficult to invite Korean contributors in
this system,
however more discussion in Korean might lead viewers into
discussion. So
strongly agree with this suggestion.


느림보 (Nrimbo)


2017-02-28 20:57 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>>:

Since there is no separate email list for the DPRK, that
might be
correct to use ko or am I missing something?



On 2017년 02월 28일 12:26, Changwoo Ryu wrote:

Actually "ko" is the ISO639 code for Korean
language. ("kr" ISO3166
code for ROK.)


2017-02-28 19:02 GMT+09:00 Max
<abonneme...@revolwear.com <mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>>:


Looking through
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/>
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/>>
I noticed that most of them have the interface
in their
respective language.
talk-ko is in English though.
(Not talking about the languag of the actual
conversations,
just the mailman
interface)

Could this be a reason for the few korean
speaking members?
Should this be changed? (I'd say yes)
Any opinions, thoughts about it?



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Re: [Talk-ko] Mailinglist in Korean?

[Max]

Well, that's another big discussion about mailinglists vs. other means 
of communication.


Some people for example prefer forums over email lists. There is no 
"user: Korea" folder in the official osm forums

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/

I'm not a fan of forums myself* so I am not volunteering to be admin for 
that, but maybe someone else here wants to ask for the creation of 
"users: Korea" there?


*exept https://www.discourse.org that one I found pretty amazing



On 2017년 02월 28일 13:35, 느림보 wrote:

From systematic view, I think two reasons made few Korean speaking
members. One is clearly language. However, a mailing list itself would
make it worse. I think a mailing list is one of the lease common
communication system in my country. People might don’t know how to join
and act in this system. It looks like foreign culture. (I don’t know,
too. I tried to response some previous threads but I hesitated because I
don’t know what is impolite attitude in a mailing list.)



It might be very difficult to invite Korean contributors in this system,
however more discussion in Korean might lead viewers into discussion. So
strongly agree with this suggestion.


느림보 (Nrimbo)


2017-02-28 20:57 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>:

Since there is no separate email list for the DPRK, that might be
correct to use ko or am I missing something?



On 2017년 02월 28일 12:26, Changwoo Ryu wrote:

Actually "ko" is the ISO639 code for Korean language. ("kr" ISO3166
code for ROK.)


2017-02-28 19:02 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>:


Looking through
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/>
I noticed that most of them have the interface in their
respective language.
talk-ko is in English though.
(Not talking about the languag of the actual conversations,
just the mailman
interface)

Could this be a reason for the few korean speaking members?
Should this be changed? (I'd say yes)
Any opinions, thoughts about it?



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[Talk-ko] Mailinglist in Korean?

[Max]

Looking through
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/
I noticed that most of them have the interface in their respective 
language. talk-ko is in English though.
(Not talking about the languag of the actual conversations, just the 
mailman interface)


Could this be a reason for the few korean speaking members?
Should this be changed? (I'd say yes)
Any opinions, thoughts about it?

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Re: [Talk-ko] Questionable imagery

[Max]

On 2017년 02월 24일 04:25, Changwoo Ryu wrote:

Questions:
1. How comes? Where is the source? Is there a Korean blog entry, Naver cafe
or other site that shows people how to do it? Can we stop it at the source?
Could someone search this on naver/daum? I could not find it in a quick
attempt, but there must be a source.


I suspected this:

http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=8527l=220919020518

This 1-month old blog entry had information on adding VMS as imaginary
source. So I have informed the author about the situation about two
weeks ago, and the author has deleted the info.


It's still there! on the previous page:
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=8527l=220922543377
At least in the screenshots.

M

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Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea

[Max]

Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the 
vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools 
how to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I 
can speak for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard 
about it here on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a 
good idea.


However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience 
to learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't 
happen again. Or at least raise the awareness.


I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for 
those from outside:


1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few 
contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an 
import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's 
impossible to know which village has which name without local knowledge. 
Junctions are imported as lone points, often with steets missing. 
Bridges too.
The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and 
double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae 
Village 11 Gyo)"(sic)


2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107
Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093

3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other hand are 
extremely detailed, up to date including even streetview from bicycle 
tracks and such.


4. The OSM community is very loose to say the least. I don't think 
anyone knows someone else IRL. There is the mailinglist with some months 
of 0 emails. It consists largely of expats and most posts are in English.


---

In this situation, now we have suddenly new users contributing a lot of 
detail http://osmcha.mapbox.com/46332326/
But they are not reacting on changeset comments or direct messages, 
maybe because of a language barrier.


Here my thoughts:
1. Is it somehow possible to not scare those away, now that their 
contributions will be reverted? Is there a way to say: "Thank you for 
your contribution, unfortunately we had to delete you edits because of 
legal problems from derived maps from unlicensed satellite images. But 
we want you to stay in our community"?


2. How to address the teenagers and Pokemon Go users with a lot of time 
and turn their obsession into something that is for the common good. 
(honestly that is what OSM is for me personally: Procrastination, but 
with the added bonus of doing something for mankind, compare this to 
playing candy crush.)


3. Should we embrace those kids better? Maybe having a booth at a games 
convention where pokemon users go?


4. Should OSM Korea make an effort to become some sort of organization?
Or would that lead to more problems even? Around Daegu I noticed that a 
lot of army bases are mapped, even with their names, which are 
completely censored on any other service. South Korea government and 
authorities might not find this funny. This is a very young democracy 
with the army and secret service having a lot of power. I think i 
remember a story that Revi has made some experiences here when he was 
editing wikipedia.


my 2 1/2 ct.

m.






On 2017년 02월 24일 13:08, Simon Poole wrote:

Just to be clear: a report to the DWG needs neither meetings, roles,
responsibilities or a common language (well it is likely that a report
in English will be easier to understand, but that is about it).

I realize that there might be a cultural hurdle, but any OSM contributor
can and should, if other avenues have not worked (naturally we all
prefer if things can be fixed locally and need not be escalated), report
use of sources that we do not have permission to use.

Simon


Am 24.02.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Max:

Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1464#issuecomment-282268051
I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the
Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no
responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see
discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers
are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea.
my 2ct..


On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote:

Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery:

  * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way,
please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and
take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get
larger, not smaller with time.
  * please point out the use of  problematic sources via changeset
comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are
doing nobody a favour.
  * while not speaking for the DWG, I s

Re: [Talk-ko] Help fix Korean Crossroads on Maproulette

[Max]

Here is an interesting node:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/414930595

junctio=yes
name=영중면복지회관앞
name:en=Yeongjungmyeonbokji Hall Ap
name:ko_rm=Yeongjungmyeonbokjihoegwanap

Please help me out with my Korean, but I'm pretty sure the 앞 means 
something like "In front of" in English, not "Ap" which could be 
mistaken for a misspelling of the abbreviation of Apartment (Apt.).


IMHO It's another case of database inflation with "English" that just 
isn't English and should rather be ommitted or generated 
programmatically from the Korean, rather than be a key=value pair.




On 2017년 01월 09일 19:47, Max wrote:

I made this maproulette challenge so that the very important crossroads
can actually be mapped as junctions.

http://maproulette.org/map/1460/

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[Talk-ko] Help fix Korean Crossroads on Maproulette

[Max]

I made this maproulette challenge so that the very important crossroads 
can actually be mapped as junctions.


http://maproulette.org/map/1460/

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[Talk-ko] Help fix Korean bridges on Maproulette

[Max]

Finally this challenge made it live. Task is it to fix the Korean 
bridges that have been imported as nodes, not way segments.


http://maproulette.org/map/403

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Re: [Talk-ko] [OSM-talk] Multilingual feedback wanted for OpenStreetMap Carto

[Max]

This is a huge improvement for the situation in Korea.
Thanks you for your work on this.


On 2016년 09월 18일 11:32, Paul Norman wrote:

I'm looking for feedback from people who read non-latin languages on a
proposed OpenStreetMap Carto font change.

We are considering moving to Noto fonts and could use feedback from
people who can read languages which have non-latin scripts, particularly
Asian languages. I've made previews in about a dozen different languages
at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2349#issuecomment-247819822
and want to check that there are no new problems. We may have to adjust
font sizes, but that's a different issue.

If you've got feedback, please leave it on
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2349


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Re: [Talk-ko] Korean Font used in Carto

[Max]

Noto is the one I propose.
It has many different weights and aims to have the most international 
coverage.
Unfortunately the devs think it's not enough to see the mock-ups made in 
GIMP. Ping-Pong back the work



On 2016년 06월 29일 13:07, Andrew Errington wrote:

Is there a better, free, font?

How about Droid Sans?

Or Noto CJK KR?
http://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-kore

There are other fonts listed here, together with their license (but not
many samples):
https://www.google.com/fonts/earlyaccess

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 29 June 2016 at 02:36, Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com
<mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>> wrote:

I think the current font used in the Carto rendering is not
readable. That's why i submitted a bug to the carto style:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2204
please add your voice.


On 2015년 11월 01일 20:45, Max wrote:

There seems to be some momentum in the development for the
rendering of
the main OSM style osm carto.

Have you noticed any oddities or bugs in Korea?

Maybe it's a good time to sumbit a ticket to change the horrible
font
for Korean? What do you suggest? The Nanum Gothic from Naver is
under a
free license and is AFAIK the only suitable candidate.

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
Is the place to post issues. I could do that but wanted your
input for
anything font related.

m.


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[Talk-ko] Korean Font used in Carto

[Max]

I think the current font used in the Carto rendering is not readable. 
That's why i submitted a bug to the carto style:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2204
please add your voice.


On 2015년 11월 01일 20:45, Max wrote:

There seems to be some momentum in the development for the rendering of
the main OSM style osm carto.

Have you noticed any oddities or bugs in Korea?

Maybe it's a good time to sumbit a ticket to change the horrible font
for Korean? What do you suggest? The Nanum Gothic from Naver is under a
free license and is AFAIK the only suitable candidate.

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
Is the place to post issues. I could do that but wanted your input for
anything font related.

m.



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[Talk-ko] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Max]

There seems to be some momentum in the development for the rendering of
the main OSM style osm carto.

Have you noticed any oddities or bugs in Korea?

Maybe it's a good time to sumbit a ticket to change the horrible font
for Korean? What do you suggest? The Nanum Gothic from Naver is under a
free license and is AFAIK the only suitable candidate.

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
Is the place to post issues. I could do that but wanted your input for
anything font related.

m.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:01:34 +0100
From: Matthijs Melissen 
To: OpenStreetMap , osm-dev List


Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-ko] What is 'English' anyways?

[Max]

On 2015년 10월 29일 00:27, Changwoo Ryu wrote:
> 2015-10-28 15:55 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com>:
> 
>> Very interesting discussion!
>>
>> Out of curiosity I just checked how stuff in China and Taiwan are
>> mapped. The "name=value" just contains the characters obviously, but
>> some are additionally tagged with "name:zh=value" some use
>> "name:zh_pinyin" https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name:zh_pinyin
>> The (correct) "name:zh_HANS" or "name:zh_HANT" is not in use on OSM
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4892372/language-codes-for-simplified-chinese-and-traditional-chinese#4894634
>>
>> I am not a linguist, so maybe someone could explain why Hanja is not the
>> same as traditional Chinese?
> 
> As English is not the same as German? Languages change over time,
> distance and people. Not just characters are diferent, meaning and
> usage are often diferent in Korea or in Japan.
> 
>> How can I tell if a sign is written in Chinese for the tourists, or if
>> it is the Hanja?
> 
> Interesting question. Officially ALL Hanja characters in road signs
> are for Chinese tourists. But they are just written just in Korean
> Hanja characters (with some exceptions I have seen). So Chinese people
> can't understand some of them. That's why this Hanja-in-signs policy
> has always been in debate.

Very interesting! I think with that knowledge and without a better idea
on the table the best option for hanja is still name:zh for now.







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Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea

[Max]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I absolutely agree with you. The bilingual display on the Mapnik
renderer can be useful for many. I hope that there will be a way to
set the language in the future. Or even better: a list of languages
from the browser will be used to determine which languages to display.
(for example: my languages are: english, french, korean. The map would
display name:en if available, if not it would display name:fr and
if that's not available name:ko. If neither of these three is
available it would show name:)
A requirement for this would be that the map (or at least the labels)
are aseparate layer, or even better: vectors. There is some work being
done in this direction. We'll see what the future brings.
One place where it already is working  have an Android smartphone you
should try this out.

https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik/issues/769
http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ (currently broken)
http://thaimap.osm-tools.org/ an alternative map rendering that shows
thailand with thai and english names (it combines name: and name:en
values and looks just like korea is looking now)
https://code.google.com/p/osmand/wiki/OsmAndRegionalSettings

Thanks for your remark about japanese and chinese. I'll add this.


On 10/14/2014 09:46 AM, Andrew Errington wrote:
 I have no real objection to the change, but I must point out that
 having Korean and English in the name=* tag has been extremely
 useful to me as a visitor to Korea.  Other maps show only Korean.
 What I would like to see is an international version of the map
 which shows Korean and English for each object (street, shop, park,
 whatever) made from name:ko (name:en).  There have been some
 experiments for this in the past, so maybe it will happen in the
 future.
 
 I am glad there has been some dialog on this.  I wrote the wiki
 pages describing the naming convention in detail, but the original
 convention was chosen long ago based on the same decision made in
 Japan.  Recently Japan has moved away from using Japanese and
 English in the name=* tag.  Again, this is disappointing as the map
 is useful to me this way, however, hopefully similar functionality
 can be introduced in the future.
 
 I would recommend adding to the Wiki a note about name:ja and
 name:zh for Japanese and Chinese name tags too.  I think ja and zh
 are the correct language codes.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Andrew
 
 
 On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:14:26 Max wrote:
 There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change
 the naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is
 going to be too fast or not in the right direction.
 
 Do you disagree with the following for the wiki?
 
 
 
 Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is written
 in Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized or
 translated versions of names. Most often they are in English, but
 Chinese and Japanese can also be found. The romanization should
 follow the Revised Romanization of Korean for South Korea, and
 the McCune–Reischauer romanization for North Korea.
 
 name= Name in Hangeul name:ko= Name in Hangeul name:en=
 Translation if available, otherwise romanized name:ko_rm=
 romanized
 
 Example name=경부고속도로 name:ko=경부고속도로 name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway 
 name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro
 
 
 
 ___ Talk-ko mailing
 list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org 
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
 
 
 ___ Talk-ko mailing
 list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org 
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
 

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Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea

[Max]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Looking at the old thread I can see that everyone involved (Changwoo
Ryu, Andrew Errington, Paul Norman) agree that the current convention
should be changed.

Is there anyone on this list that disagrees with that?
When can safely be said that there is a consensus?
If nobody has objections within a week?
There is so little traffic on this list that it seems it either
reaches not many or there are not many active mappers/community
members in Korea.

M.

On 10/06/2014 12:10 AM, Max wrote:
 This has been mentioned in the thread, thanks for adding the
 reference.
 
 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington erringtona at
 gmail.com:
 However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider 
 dropping the convention.  I have learned that mappers in Japan
 have recently decided to do the same (although the wiki has not
 been updated everywhere to show this).
 
 On 10/05/2014 10:52 PM, Lukas Sommer wrote:
 
 I noticed the non-standard naming convention in Korea and Japan.
 
 
 
 I understand this is due to historic reasons and inspired by the
  Japanese convention, the only other place where this is like
 that.
 
 
 The Japanese community is currently switching from name=JAPANESE
  (ENGLISH) to name=JAPANESE + name:ja=JAPANESE +
 name:en=ENGLISH. (See also 
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019326.html)

 
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Re: [Talk-ko] Help identifying map

[Max]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Paul,

this is my first post here. I'm new to Korea but not so new to OSM.

I stumbled across your post. In case you haven't identified that
screenshot of Seoul yet: it is VWORLD. That is the official
governmental map provider in South Korea.

http://map.vworld.kr/map/maps.do

Cheers

M.
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