Re: [Talk-transit] Tagging of railway station
On 07.12.2013 09:47, Roland Olbricht wrote: > Hi, > >> 1. Position of tag railway=station >> There are currently two approaches [1]: >> (i) on a node within the main concourse area >> (ii) on an area encompassing the land used for passenger services (including >> any concourse, platforms and associated tracks) > > I strongly opt for (i). As you have mentioned, for both the exact placment is > subjective. But the single node is far easier to understand and handle for > mappers. > > For example, you could tell a mapper that the node is the location where > label > is placed. By contrast, to start a mapper's introduction with a lengthy > explanation of the computation of a centroid is not practical. This problem is not know (see place=*). We even already have an solution: role "label". I tend to use stop-area relations for stations. > If you want a really precise station description, I would go towards indoor > mapping, see > http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Indoor_Mapping > In-station navigation could be a strength of OSM if enough stations are > mapped. Your comment below contradicts the one above. >> N.B. A third approach is presented on the wiki [2]: tagging the building. >> This approach seems not appropriate, since the bulding(s) often doesn't >> cover the whole station surface (e.g. platform area). Maybe it could be >> removed frome the wiki ? > > Yes, remove it from the wiki. A lot of stations even don't have a building. +1, cause the building should be tagged with building=station and the station includes the building but goes far beyond. >> 2. Use of public_transport=station >> This is a much debated point: > [...] >> (ii) public_transport=station should be added to the one object that is >> tagged railway=station, since these tags are synonymous > [...] >> Same question: is there one of these four approaches that should be favoured >> ? > > Clearly (ii) is the best choice. Even the public transport proposal states > that the tags should be used alongside the existing tags. In general, a > mapper > and also a tool would usually just left aside unknown tags, so (ii) keeps > tools working regarless on what tagging they depend. > > Having two distinct objects would be difficult to understand, because which > object you get will then depend on the tools syntax (either one of them or > both), and nobody expects a second difficult-to-find shadow object to exist. For new created objects I only use the new scheme but I do not delete the older tags if already tagged but only add the new ones. Cheers fly ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On 09.12.2013 17:09, Pieren wrote: > I find the answers on this thread so pathetic. This mailing list is > all about public transport and we get regularly so many complains in > other channels that the proposal is over complicated, unclear and is > promoting a version which is not supported by the tools like the > rendering since years. This is one of the biggest mess currently in > OSM and none of the people who created it seem to be brave enough to > improve things. > Either accept that the public transport proposal failed on some areas > and change the wiki or push stronger the devs and maintainers to adopt > the new one. You seems to be satisfied by the current situtation but, > again, it is so repulsive that many contributors just stop editing > public transport. I do not care about the renderer anymore as I did create tickets/issues about it a long time ago and I did not get any response. For new objects I only use the new scheme (even do not add area=yes to platforms). For existing objects I simply add the new scheme. The JOSM validator warning hits the spot where the old scheme does not work, e.g. determine between stop-position and platform and I meet several stop which have only one platform on one side of the road for both directions. Cheers fly ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
hi fly, thanks for sharing your experience. Being new to OSM I do not understand this story entirely, but it seems to be a long ongoing war between adherents of the old tagging scheme and the new one. I also understand that sometime you can get tired of discussing and arguing about the same thing, so you just do your work. But can you also understand that your solution is somehow frustrating for somebody coming to OSM and want to tag the world for the benefit of everyone? If I tag like you suggest according to the new rules (and that’s actually what I did!!!), and then realize that nobody even realizes my work. Or even work, if I correct a line that was tagged according to the old rules, but some streets changed, or some stops were added, and I „profit“ from the correction to shift to the new schema, and then suddenly the stops are not rendered anymore — this you cannot call an improvement? => So I do really not care who’s fault it was some time ago, but what I do care is that we have a very confusing situation, which does not help our common cause. I want to see this kind of application finally seeing light. http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a425/eisbaer99/OSM/PE_PubTransp_zps186b8f3f.png If we fight over incompatible conventions, we will not advance. How is willing to try to make these things move to the better??? Cheers, nounours77 Am 11.12.2013 um 15:57 schrieb fly : > On 09.12.2013 17:09, Pieren wrote: >> I find the answers on this thread so pathetic. This mailing list is >> all about public transport and we get regularly so many complains in >> other channels that the proposal is over complicated, unclear and is >> promoting a version which is not supported by the tools like the >> rendering since years. This is one of the biggest mess currently in >> OSM and none of the people who created it seem to be brave enough to >> improve things. >> Either accept that the public transport proposal failed on some areas >> and change the wiki or push stronger the devs and maintainers to adopt >> the new one. You seems to be satisfied by the current situtation but, >> again, it is so repulsive that many contributors just stop editing >> public transport. > > I do not care about the renderer anymore as I did create tickets/issues > about it a long time ago and I did not get any response. > > For new objects I only use the new scheme (even do not add area=yes to > platforms). > > For existing objects I simply add the new scheme. > > The JOSM validator warning hits the spot where the old scheme does not > work, e.g. determine between stop-position and platform and I meet > several stop which have only one platform on one side of the road for > both directions. > > Cheers fly > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:57 PM, fly wrote: > For new objects I only use the new scheme (even do not add area=yes to > platforms). > > For existing objects I simply add the new scheme. Just to recall here what was in the original PT proposal put to the vote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#What_this_proposal_does_not_cover "This proposal does not replace, deprecate or obsolete the already existing and well known tags" Don't expect that renderers have to change since the proposal states clearly "it's not necessary". Pieren ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
Am 11.12.2013 um 16:12 schrieb Pieren : > > "This proposal does not replace, deprecate or obsolete the already > existing and well known tags“ Everybody agrees on that. The old tags still stay valid. > > Don't expect that renderers have to change since the proposal states > clearly "it's not necessary“. I do not understand this conclusion. If we agree by voting on new tags - even if their use is only recommended and not mandatory (how could anything be mandatory in OSM?) - so if we agree that we can and should use the new tags, how can you conclude that „it’s not necessary“ to render them? This is a complete non-sense. Tagging something which than will not be rendered, what is this for??? I really do not understand. Either there is a problem with the tagging - then everybody should agree to improve it. Or there is a problem with rendering this tagging - which somebody should maybe explain me. Is it technically so difficult to render both tagging schemes? Is this situation satisfying for anybody? nounours ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:25 PM, nounours77 > I really do not understand. I will tell it differenty : why the renderers should support two tags for the same feature if it's not to deprecate one of them ? or why the proposal claims to not replace or deprecate previous tags and we get complains later that the new ones are ignored ? Pieren ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
Thanks for the explanation, Pieren. I understand your view. But it looks colored by „I’ve always been against this proposal“ to me. What’s happening now is what you feared, and why you were against. Maybe you should have been followed. Maybe fearing something might help creating it ... I did not take part in these discussions, and so I am missing probably some important bits. But as an outsider, I would understand: ==>> If we vote for a new feature, and do not deprecate the old one, both would be equally valid and thus both should be supported by renderers and editors. If I’m coding, I will obviously use the new one. I think everybody on the street not being of OSM (or an OSM-newbe) would understand it this way. If my understanding is wrong, than the wiki should be changed, the proposal should be removed or whatever. From the voting date I conclude that the „Grand Public Transport War" has taken place 2.5 years ago. Would it not be time to make peace? I see a lot of arguments in favor of making peace, looking ahead, but I currently do not see any objective reason to go on with this situation. I really have no opinion on which scheme is better, the old or the new. I find PublicTransportMapping difficult, but the problem for me are not the stops. So it does not really matter to me. The relation and master_route actually looks like an improvement to me, and I think making hierarchical relations (not knowing the potential technical problems behind) like discussed here https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-transit/2013-December/001645.html would help! (you wrote once " The method of how routes relations are already breaking highways is already stupid but that's another story. -- Pieren 14:26, 31 March 2011 (BST)“ - maybe hierarchical routes is something you can align to? Anybody for making peace and going on improve PT? Nounours Am 11.12.2013 um 16:32 schrieb Pieren : > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:25 PM, nounours77 > >> I really do not understand. > > I will tell it differenty : > why the renderers should support two tags for the same feature if it's > not to deprecate one of them ? > or > why the proposal claims to not replace or deprecate previous tags and > we get complains later that the new ones are ignored ? > > Pieren > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On 11.12.2013 16:32, Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:25 PM, nounours77 > >> I really do not understand. > > I will tell it differenty : > why the renderers should support two tags for the same feature if it's > not to deprecate one of them ? > or > why the proposal claims to not replace or deprecate previous tags and > we get complains later that the new ones are ignored ? Wait a minute. If a new proposal tries to deprecate a well established tag it will be rejected in over 90% of the cases. I do not know why people tend to be conservative but they are. In the case of public_transport, the conclusion was to preserve an easy tagging system. Evolution and deprecating in OSM will always lead to situations where several common tags need to be interpreted. My hope is/was that more people will/would comment on the tickets/issues but sadly this was not the case so far. If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the software. One site [1] did at least start to render the new scheme along the old on, so there is still hope that others will follow. Cheers fly [1] http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On 11 December 2013 16:57, fly wrote: > I do not care about the renderer anymore as I did create tickets/issues > about it a long time ago and I did not get any response. > > For new objects I only use the new scheme (even do not add area=yes to > platforms). > > For existing objects I simply add the new scheme. > > Hi guys, yeah, it's hard to change rendering rules by just opening new ticket. You know, i have implemented my own public transport layer - http://openmap.lt/#l=51.97448,13.54597,7,MT I'm gonna upgrade my rendering rules to new scheme. Any feedback would help. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
I went with the pragmatic solution, after being rebuffed several times. You're not the first one who brings this up. :-) It doesn't seem like there is a willingness to support the new scheme, which leads me to say: ok, then it's not necessary to add the new tags, so I don't. Then the rest of the mappers become annoyed because the validator complains when they touch such route relations and even that is apparently hard to fix without tagging on every route relation that it's only implementing the new scheme half way through. It's frustrating. I try to make the best of it. If you push me a bit, I'll change the wiki page to reflect how I'm mapping at the moment. It may relieve some frustration for new players, but it's more likely this will cause an edit war on the wiki... which is why I didn't do it until now. This situation is indeed ugly and not tenable. Polyglot 2013/12/11 Ramas > > On 11 December 2013 16:57, fly wrote: > >> I do not care about the renderer anymore as I did create tickets/issues >> about it a long time ago and I did not get any response. >> >> For new objects I only use the new scheme (even do not add area=yes to >> platforms). >> >> For existing objects I simply add the new scheme. >> >> > Hi guys, > yeah, it's hard to change rendering rules by just opening new ticket. You > know, i have implemented my own public transport layer - > http://openmap.lt/#l=51.97448,13.54597,7,MT > I'm gonna upgrade my rendering rules to new scheme. Any feedback would > help. > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote: If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the software. One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers have not taken an interest in the new scheme. If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new tagging scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story. OSM is frequently described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded solutions win out over what is needed. And it's quite possible that we public transport mappers have been collecting and entering the information but have never gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever is the technology behind the renderers. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
Simply rendering public_transport=platform+bus=yes (if that's correct) as a bus stop is a matter of a few lines of xml in the tag-transform (to insert a highway=bus_stop tag in relevant nodes, which the normal rendering processes can pick up). Though since this is functionally the same as the mappers adding a highway=bus_stop tag to the nodes then you do rather wonder what is the point. Of course it's probably more complicated than that, which is why the people who use these tags need to state what needs to be done, and in what situations. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/TagTransform On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Mike N wrote: > On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote: > >> If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice >> the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the >> software. >> > > One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers > have not taken an interest in the new scheme. > > If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new tagging > scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story. OSM is frequently > described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded solutions win out > over what is needed. And it's quite possible that we public transport > mappers have been collecting and entering the information but have never > gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever is the technology behind the > renderers. > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
For a long time, public_transport was not transfered to the DB used for the rendering of Mapnik. At that time it didn't make sense to update stylesheets. Jo 2013/12/11 Mike N > On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote: > >> If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice >> the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the >> software. >> > > One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers > have not taken an interest in the new scheme. > > If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new tagging > scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story. OSM is frequently > described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded solutions win out > over what is needed. And it's quite possible that we public transport > mappers have been collecting and entering the information but have never > gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever is the technology behind the > renderers. > > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
The point would be that it then becomes possible to leave out highway=bus_stop by contributors who want to do that, thus opening the possibility to migrate towards the new scheme. Jo 2013/12/11 Richard Mann > Simply rendering public_transport=platform+bus=yes (if that's correct) as > a bus stop is a matter of a few lines of xml in the tag-transform (to > insert a highway=bus_stop tag in relevant nodes, which the normal rendering > processes can pick up). Though since this is functionally the same as the > mappers adding a highway=bus_stop tag to the nodes then you do rather > wonder what is the point. > > Of course it's probably more complicated than that, which is why the > people who use these tags need to state what needs to be done, and in what > situations. > > See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/TagTransform > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Mike N wrote: > >> On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote: >> >>> If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice >>> the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the >>> software. >>> >> >> One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers >> have not taken an interest in the new scheme. >> >> If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new tagging >> scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story. OSM is frequently >> described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded solutions win out >> over what is needed. And it's quite possible that we public transport >> mappers have been collecting and entering the information but have never >> gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever is the technology behind the >> renderers. >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-transit mailing list >> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit >> > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Stop according to new PT scheme not rendered?
tag-transform is an osmosis plugin. It happens before conversion to the postgres database, so you can use any tags that exist in the wild On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Jo wrote: > For a long time, public_transport was not transfered to the DB used for > the rendering of Mapnik. At that time it didn't make sense to update > stylesheets. > > Jo > > > 2013/12/11 Mike N > >> On 12/11/2013 11:07 AM, fly wrote: >> >>> If you keep on adding both schemes simultaneously you will not notice >>> the problem and there will be no reason for developers to adjust the >>> software. >>> >> >> One of the problems in this situation is the map rendering developers >> have not taken an interest in the new scheme. >> >> If someone has submitted a 'pull request' that included the new tagging >> scheme but it was ignored, that is a different story. OSM is frequently >> described as a do-ocracy - in which finished and coded solutions win out >> over what is needed. And it's quite possible that we public transport >> mappers have been collecting and entering the information but have never >> gotten into CSS Map stylesheets, or whatever is the technology behind the >> renderers. >> >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-transit mailing list >> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit >> > > > ___ > Talk-transit mailing list > Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > > ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
