[Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Michał Borsuk]

Hi everybody again:

This time I'd like to propose a smaller change, but this one may break
compatibility with oxomoa - it has been, however, already commonly
implemented.

*ISSUE RAISED:
* map bus stops to their physical location, not a point on the route/street
*
Present status: If I understand correctly, oxomoa suggests that the bus stop
data (name, unique number, etc.) be entered as properties of a point on the
route/street.

Problems :
* Lines often have stops that are quite far apart for each direction
* This prohibits proper routing (GPS + walking),
* this system is not very intuitive I find.

*Proposed change: bus stops to be mapped exactly to where they are, and to
be added to relations *

Result:
* better routing results e.g. one wants to find a correct way to the bus
stop, and not to the average point somewhere between two stops of the same
name in either direction.
* more intuitive system -> easier "learning curve" for new users.

Influence on possible future software solutions: minor. May require all the
stops on the route to be ordered based on their geographical location, as
opposed to their place on the route (the latter is easier).

Comments: I have seen this system very often implemented - two bus stops on
each side, so my suggestion is just to codify the situation for future
editors.

Hope this is not too much at once, for more is to follow.


Greetings,


-- 
Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,

Michał Borsuk
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Claudius Henrichs]

Oxomoa is suggesting bus stop on the way only for the most basic bus 
stop (think of a bus stop on a crossing on the country side with just a 
sign). If you have a more advanced bus stop with waiting positions for 
passengers on both sides of the street you add a 
public_transport=stop_position on the way *and* add a 
public_transport=platform node/way on the location you are proposing 
(e.g. "where they are"). This solution allows to fulfill the data 
requirements of routers you described.

More details in the graphics here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema#Examples_for_the_application_of_the_model_for_stops

Claudius

Am 28.06.2010 20:07, Michał Borsuk:

*ISSUE RAISED:
* map bus stops to their physical location, not a point on the 
route/street

*
Present status: If I understand correctly, oxomoa suggests that the 
bus stop data (name, unique number, etc.) be entered as properties of 
a point on the route/street.


Problems :
* Lines often have stops that are quite far apart for each direction
* This prohibits proper routing (GPS + walking),
* this system is not very intuitive I find.

*Proposed change: bus stops to be mapped exactly to where they are, 
and to be added to relations *


Result:
* better routing results e.g. one wants to find a correct way to the 
bus stop, and not to the average point somewhere between two stops of 
the same name in either direction.

* more intuitive system -> easier "learning curve" for new users.

Influence on possible future software solutions: minor. May require 
all the stops on the route to be ordered based on their geographical 
location, as opposed to their place on the route (the latter is easier).


Comments: I have seen this system very often implemented - two bus 
stops on each side, so my suggestion is just to codify the situation 
for future editors.


Hope this is not too much at once, for more is to follow.


Greetings,


--
Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, 
Pozdrowienia,


Michał Borsuk


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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Michał Borsuk]

On 28 June 2010 21:01, Claudius Henrichs  wrote:

>  Oxomoa is suggesting bus stop on the way only for the most basic bus stop
> (think of a bus stop on a crossing on the country side with just a sign). If
> you have a more advanced bus stop with waiting positions for passengers on
> both sides of the street you add a public_transport=stop_position on the way
> *and* add a public_transport=platform node/way on the location you are
> proposing (e.g. "where they are"). This solution allows to fulfill the data
> requirements of routers you described.
>

Sure, I understand that much. My original point was somewhere about this
being complicated and time consuming. While we don't much care for the
first, the latter is my problem. Additionaly, I edit/cover an area of some
good thousands of square kilometers. While I know the routes, I am forced to
rely on locals as to where the stops are located (bus doesn't stop at each
stop).



> More details in the graphics here:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema#Examples_for_the_application_of_the_model_for_stops
>
>
The link you provided is a very good example of oxomoa's weakness. While the
first simple bus stop is clear, for two bus stops I must "create a
stop_area". How do you do that? (the example is not clear enough) And more
importantly, what for? Is the gain worth the extra time, which is
considerable? I beg to doubt it. ÖPNVKarte/openbusmap deals with the
inconsistencies of the data pretty good. It only broke once on my data (in
St. Ingbert if you care, lines 521/522). All the other lines are drawn
almost perfectly.




-- 
Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia,

Michał Borsuk
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Claudius Henrichs]

Am 28.06.2010 22:16, Michał Borsuk:


More details in the graphics here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema#Examples_for_the_application_of_the_model_for_stops


The link you provided is a very good example of oxomoa's weakness. 
While the first simple bus stop is clear, for two bus stops I must 
"create a stop_area". How do you do that? (the example is not clear 
enough) And more importantly, what for? Is the gain worth the extra 
time, which is considerable?
Most of the time a relation for public_transport=stop_area is not 
necessary e.g. if you have two crossing bus lines which have the same 
name. In this case the router can easily determine that there's a 
changing location.
But if you have more infrastructure like a taxi stand (See here: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/152809 ) or a ferry 
terminal it's sometimes necessary to create a stop_area. But no need to 
worry: Don't do it if you think it's too much time. Eventually someone 
else does it. In OSM you don't have to do everything yourself. And you 
don't need to do the whole 1000km² yourself :)


Do you have a map link to the area you are mapping public transport 
data? Maybe a complex example which took you time to tag?


Claudius
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Shaun McDonald]

In the UK as part of the Naptan import we already have decided that bus stops 
must be marked exactly where they are on the ground and added to the route 
relation of the bus route.

Shaun

On 28 Jun 2010, at 19:07, Michał Borsuk wrote:

> Hi everybody again: 
> 
> This time I'd like to propose a smaller change, but this one may break 
> compatibility with oxomoa - it has been, however, already commonly 
> implemented. 
> 
> ISSUE RAISED:  
> * map bus stops to their physical location, not a point on the route/street
> 
> Present status: If I understand correctly, oxomoa suggests that the bus stop 
> data (name, unique number, etc.) be entered as properties of a point on the 
> route/street. 
>  
> Problems : 
> * Lines often have stops that are quite far apart for each direction
> * This prohibits proper routing (GPS + walking), 
> * this system is not very intuitive I find. 
> 
> Proposed change: bus stops to be mapped exactly to where they are, and to be 
> added to relations 
> 
> Result: 
> * better routing results e.g. one wants to find a correct way to the bus 
> stop, and not to the average point somewhere between two stops of the same 
> name in either direction. 
> * more intuitive system -> easier "learning curve" for new users. 
> 
> Influence on possible future software solutions: minor. May require all the 
> stops on the route to be ordered based on their geographical location, as 
> opposed to their place on the route (the latter is easier). 
> 
> Comments: I have seen this system very often implemented - two bus stops on 
> each side, so my suggestion is just to codify the situation for future 
> editors. 
> 
> Hope this is not too much at once, for more is to follow. 
> 
> 
> Greetings, 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, 
> 
> Michał Borsuk
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Michał Borsuk]

To Claudius and Shaun: why don't we have those rules written?


-- 
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Michał Borsuk
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Arun Ganesh]

Shouldn't we keep the schema to something that is easily compatible with the
Google Transit GTFS format instead of developing something different all
together? I believe the GTFS was developed after extensive research on how
transit companies actually manage their data and how that data can be used
for routing. On the plus side the entire specification documentation and
tools have been released under cc-by-sa. in addition to which transit
agencies are making their feed public
too,
making it easy to update routes.

I haven't had the time to go through the proposed osm transit schema in
detail, but i would hope that in the end, it would allow easy conversion to
and from GTFS. This hasnt got anything to do with me supporting google
transit, but just that i feel that the format is quite comprehensive and
indepth, And in future when an OSM transit app comes out, agencies would be
able to easily publish their data in the OSM schema as well without much
hassle.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Tiziano D'Angelo]

+1

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 08:23, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

> Shouldn't we keep the schema to something that is easily compatible with
> the Google Transit GTFS format instead of developing something different all
> together?
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Michał Borsuk]

On 29.06.2010 09:33, Tiziano D'Angelo wrote:

+1

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 08:23, Arun Ganesh > wrote:


Shouldn't we keep the schema to something that is easily
compatible with the Google Transit GTFS format instead of
developing something different all together?


Doesn't GTFSsuggest one location for one unique stop name, whereas we 
want each physical location belonging to a name as a separate point? 
(this does not suggest incompatibility, just an overlay on GTFS)


LMB
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Re: [Talk-transit] Proposed changes to oxomoa schema [part 2: stops]

[Claudius Henrichs]

Am 29.06.2010 10:22, Michał Borsuk:

On 29.06.2010 09:33, Tiziano D'Angelo wrote:

+1

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 08:23, Arun Ganesh > wrote:


Shouldn't we keep the schema to something that is easily
compatible with the Google Transit GTFS format instead of
developing something different all together?


Doesn't GTFSsuggest one location for one unique stop name, whereas we 
want each physical location belonging to a name as a separate point? 
(this does not suggest incompatibility, just an overlay on GTFS)


LMB

GTFS covers Oxomoa's extended form of tagging a stop area as well:
stops.txt contains an optional location_type where the value "1" would 
represent a public_transport=stop_area:
0 or blank - Stop. A location where passengers board or disembark from a 
transit vehicle.

1 - Station. A physical structure or area that contains one or more stop.

In most cases the stop positions in both directions will have different 
locations and thus different stop_lat and stop_lon in GTFS as well. So 
we are already "easily compatible".


Claudius
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