Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a lack of buildings, or new buildings. Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to put historical data. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Russ Nelson wrote: I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia to OpenStreetMap. ...is exactly what I was going to say. Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken. You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I did, just now: http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Half of those roads don't exist at all, and the other half are barely roads, certainly not residential ones as tagged.) Why would you (contentiously) delete railway=abandoned for an actual abandoned railway trackbed when the map has thousands, millions, of fictional or entirely mistagged roads and tracks? I know it's a long-standing OSM joke, but at this rate we _are_ going to have to import some Germans to the US, because it looks like the only way the map will ever get fixed. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Abandoned-railway-tp5815752p5815879.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
On 8/30/2014 4:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken. You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I did, just now:http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good case that OSM in the US is broken. Desert imagery cues do not match those of conventional climates. Those roads likely do exist, but are barely visible in contrast to the surroundings. We city-folk would classify them as tracks, but a desert prospector or park ranger would consider them secondary. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Il giorno 30/ago/2014, alle ore 10:33, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net ha scritto: Russ Nelson wrote: I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia to OpenStreetMap. ...is exactly what I was going to say. Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken. You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I did, just now: http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Half of those roads don't exist at all, and the other half are barely roads, certainly not residential ones as tagged.) Why would you (contentiously) delete railway=abandoned for an actual abandoned railway trackbed when the map has thousands, millions, of fictional or entirely mistagged roads and tracks? +1, completely agree. Even if you don't care for abandoned railways and question their belonging in OSM, please respect others who actually do care. Deleting what someone has entered with great effort (and what is correctly tagged) will surely cause more harm than good to OSM as a whole (eg will frustrate and ultimately draw engaged mappers away from OSM). cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Paul Norman writes: On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a lack of buildings, or new buildings. Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to put historical data. Don't render them, then. Oh, wait, that's what you're already doing. I'm not understanding the problem here. If you want to start deleting things from OSM, the first thing that should be deleted is your access. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
OK, I believe everyone has made their point here. Let’s leave it at this, or take it offline. — Martijn van Exel President, OpenStreetMap U.S. Chapter http://openstreetmap.us/ @openstreetmapus Elections for the 2014-2015 board Oct 4-12 - consider running for a board seat! From: Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com Reply: Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com Date: August 30, 2014 at 10:07:07 AM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway Paul Norman writes: On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a lack of buildings, or new buildings. Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to put historical data. Don't render them, then. Oh, wait, that's what you're already doing. I'm not understanding the problem here. If you want to start deleting things from OSM, the first thing that should be deleted is your access. -- --my blog is at http://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] 2014 Tiger Update
Good point. I’ll see about updating the JOSM layer, I am not sure the iD one uses the same imagery actually. — Martijn van Exel From: Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com Reply: Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com Date: August 29, 2014 at 11:45:40 PM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-us] 2014 Tiger Update Released August 19, 2014 - https://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/data/tiger-line.html Anyone know if they will be added to I.D editor anytime soon? Regards, Hans http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Mike N writes: On 8/30/2014 4:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken. You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I did, just now:http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good case that OSM in the US is broken. That's a fair objection to that specific example. You are correct that it is not representative. Pick some place in Pennsylvania, if you want. Every time I cross over the border from New York into Pennsylvania, I shudder. If $X has the time to make OSM worse by deleting things, then $X surely has the time to do some armchair mapping to add things. If you're bored because your country is completely mapped, come visit the US. Pick any state's list of rivers and streams (other than NY) from Wikipedia, and start clicking. I'm happy to help anybody who wants to add to OSM. Verstehen Sie? -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Mike N. wrote: Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good case that OSM in the US is broken. Desert imagery cues do not match those of conventional climates. I really wish I could agree with you, Mike, but my experience is that ~75% of the US landmass is like that. I just randomly alighted on somewhere in Texas. It's the same story. 'highway=residential's that don't exist or are, at best, very faint farm tracks at the edge of a field. The majority of the roads I click on just aren't there. Now looking at somewhere random in Missouri. It's better - the geometries are reasonably well lined up with the imagery. I'd say that around two-thirds of the roads I'm clicking on are actually roads, and perhaps just one-third are faint tracks or just non-existent. The US community (and, dare I mention it, the late NE2) has done really well cleaning up the major road data. If you're going from somewhere biggish to somewhere biggish in a car, the routing will generally be good. I can happily get OSRM to route from town to town and it works fine. But that's not a map, that's a sparse routing graph. If I pick a random highway=residential anywhere in the US, I have no confidence that it'll be drivable in an average car or cyclable on an average bike. I certainly couldn't expect it to be a road principally for residential access, in the way that the rest of the world uses highway=residential. And that's without going into nice-to-haves like rivers and woodland and so on. I don't think people realise quite how far behind OSM is in the US (the biggest cities aside) compared to Western Europe. I can look anywhere in the Highlands of Scotland, or barely-inhabited Mid-Wales, and OSM will be right. Sure, some of the rarer footpaths might be missing and the stream geometry might be a bit skewiff, but most information will be there, and what's there will be correct. Similarly, la France profonde has come on in leaps and bounds over the last couple of years. I don't need to tell you about Germany. :) Fixing the rural US is eminently achievable, and achievable right now. A Tasking Manager instance, for a clearly defined project, would be great. I think you'd get the armchair mappers of the world rallying to the task. If you wanted to widen participation, you could probably build a MapRoulette-on-steroids that provided a fast retagging UI within the browser, with no need to fire up an editor. Or whatever. But we can't get to OSM's 20th birthday and still have the same problem. It needs to be fixed sooner or later, and my sense is that, at the current rate of progress, it will be later - probably not within the next ten years. Let's decide to make it sooner instead. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Abandoned-railway-tp5815752p5815918.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] 2014 Tiger Update
iD mostly uses https://github.com/osmlab/editor-imagery-index So if it is added as a layer there, it can be made available in iD very easily. So I think tiles need to be generated and the source needs to be added here: https://github.com/osmlab/editor-imagery-index/tree/gh-pages/sources/north-america Thanks, Bryan On Aug 30, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: Good point. I’ll see about updating the JOSM layer, I am not sure the iD one uses the same imagery actually. — Martijn van Exel From: Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com Reply: Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com Date: August 29, 2014 at 11:45:40 PM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-us] 2014 Tiger Update Released August 19, 2014 - https://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/data/tiger-line.html Anyone know if they will be added to I.D editor anytime soon? Regards, Hans http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
Hi. Let's stop this thread here, please. Thanks, Your friendly list admin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good case that OSM in the US is broken. Desert imagery cues do not match those of conventional climates. Those roads likely do exist, but are barely visible in contrast to the surroundings. We city-folk would classify them as tracks, but a desert prospector or park ranger would consider them secondary. NO! We would *still* classify them as tracks! Because there's no good reason to classify them as more major, given consistency. We're trying to * not* break the routers, after all. Yes, I realize that the vast majority of county roads are *not* paved in my region. But to classify them as more major is a sickening choice, and would actually make OSM much worse than Yahoo Maps, given the situation that actually killed a Yahoo founder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim Just because it's a county road doesn't stop it from being a track. It might be a grade1 track, but that's still a track. Even on the most major tracks, even if they're capable of letting you hit the default speed limit in most counties (45 mph), I'd still consider them a track. Mostly because if it's not paved at all, there's a good chance that 1) it floods regularly, 2) it's not always the grade reported in OSM and therefore not always possible in all vehicles, and 3) completely irresponsible to represent them as something people unfamiliar are going to want to take. My comfort level in taking a Chevy Malibu over dozens of miles of county track, even if it's the shortest or fastest way, is going to be completely different from someone unfamiliar with the territory, and unfamiliar with the map's foibles in the region. At least in North America, I'm willing to go so far as to say as tagging any unpaved road as anything higher than track is Considered Harmful. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: NO! We would *still* classify them as tracks! Because there's no good reason to classify them as more major, given consistency. We're trying to * not* break the routers, after all. Yes, I realize that the vast majority of county roads are *not* paved in my region. But to classify them as more major is a sickening choice, and would actually make OSM much worse than Yahoo Maps, given the situation that actually killed a Yahoo founder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim Also, given that not all roads in ODOT's system are paved (yes, it's 2014, and there's substantial parts of Oregon's state highway system not paved!) and many of the unpaved roads in higher elevation areas are not open in the winter, with snow gates that are often buried completely and invisibly (probably contributing to Kim's death) thanks to a lack of snow removal, I really have a hard time justifying, at least in the north american case, that any unpaved route should ever get more than a track designation. These are routes that, with good reason, should be detoured around whenever possible. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
