Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Kevin Kenny 
Inadvertently sent this as a private reply when I meant to send it to the
list:

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Blake Girardot 
> wrote:
>
>> You bring up a good point of course. It sticks out to me too. I am not
>> sure what a good alternative is though. human_made is not to bad.
>>
> Looking through taginfo for man_made, it strikes me that structure could
> easily substitute for man_made, at least until you get to beehive. Since
> beehive's key is man_made, I assume it's not talking about a
> nature=beehive. Structure is already being used as a key so it would mean
> depreciating man_made in favor of structure.
>


I rather like 'structure'. It's struck me as rather peculiar to tag a
beaver dam as 'man made.' Not just sexism, but 'species-ism' as well! As a
geographic feature,  the thing was little different from any other dam,
impounding some hundreds of hectares.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Clifford Snow 
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> You bring up a good point of course. It sticks out to me too. I am not
> sure what a good alternative is though. human_made is not to bad.
>

Looking through taginfo for man_made, it strikes me that structure could
easily substitute for man_made, at least until you get to beehive. Since
beehive's key is man_made, I assume it's not talking about a
nature=beehive. Structure is already being used as a key so it would mean
depreciating man_made in favor of structure.

Having a discussion about man_made is healthy and we shouldn't be quick to
brush it off. Though moving the discussion to tagging might make sense.

Clifford


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Blake Girardot 
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Joshua Houston
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be phased
> out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap is very
> inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is tagged. I'd
> like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to "human_made" and start
> a discussion on it. Many parts of society are trying to implement a more
> inclusive language, NASA for instance has changed "manned missions" to
> "crewed missions". I think it is an important goal to make OSM inclusive
> whenever there is a choice.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joshua Houston
>

You bring up a good point of course. It sticks out to me too. I am not
sure what a good alternative is though. human_made is not to bad.

Plus the knee jerk reactions as you have already seen make thoughtful
discussion of being more inclusive difficult and addressing default or
implicit gender biases next to impossible :)

Unfortunately, it is also a reality that changing existing, well
entrenched key names, is probably not very likely to happen.

But none of the above are any reason not to raise the topic for
consideration, and certainly to remind and inform us for the future
if/when choices as to key names or values need to be made.

Thank you for bringing it up Joshua, and I look forward to more
discussion on it and similar, related topics :)

It would be great to hear some women's thoughts on the issue.

> I think it is an important goal to make OSM inclusive
> whenever there is a choice.

+1

cheers
Blake

Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

On 03/10/2017 10:27 PM, Joshua Houston wrote:
> It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term

Two observations:

1. Our tagging system is complicated, illogical, and has little to do
with real language. Things are tagged as amenity even if they're hardly
that in any normal use of the word ("amenity=prison"). Most amenities
are human-made, so why not man_made=prison? And why is it landuse=basin
even though that's also human-made, etc? So if you start taking this
apart on the basis that man-made things can also be made by women or
people who don't associate with either gender, then there's a whole lot
more you might want to pull straight.

2. For the reasons given in 1., we're exposing users less and less to
the actual tags - witness editors and the web site's own "identify
feature" function which will use presets and translated terms to present
things to the user in proper words and in their language. I think that
here lies the future of inclusivity; changing from man_made to
human_made is something that only very few users in OSM would even
notice, and even then you'd still exclude all those who don't speak
English. But working on presets and tag translations and maybe even
styling tools that abstract from tags will help to include not only
English-speaking technically-interested women, but also everyone who
doesn't speak English and everyone who doesn't deal with databases as a
hobby.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Mike N 

On 3/10/2017 4:27 PM, Joshua Houston wrote:

It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
phased out from OpenStreetMap language.


  Changing any long-established tag will have long lasting ripple 
effects in the many data consumers.   Any such tag migration would need 
to have a high degree of value in the change to justify the change.


  In general, tags are just a token and are increasingly hidden by 
editors and not seen by mappers unless they prefer to create tag values 
manually.



___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Joel Holdsworth 

On 10/03/17 14:52, Brian Stromberg wrote:

Wow.

I think it at least merits a discussion. Yes, it's a political decision
but not so ridiculous as to dismiss it as part of a feminist plot.


Not a feminist plot. Just a very tired game to see played out over and over.

I've seen it played in a lot of activity spaces: Open Source, Gaming, 
Astronomy, Magic the Gathering, Historical Re-enactment.




I would also point out that using a gender-specific term like "man" does
more to maintain division than anything else.


"Man" is not a gender specific term.

And there is no division, except among those wish to make an issue of it.


Joel

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Harald Kliems 
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 3:28 PM Joshua Houston 
wrote:

> It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
> phased out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap is
> very inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is
> tagged. I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to
> "human_made" and start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are trying
> to implement a more inclusive language, NASA for instance has changed
> "manned missions" to "crewed missions". I think it is an important goal to
> make OSM inclusive whenever there is a choice.
>
Given that such a change would affect all of OSM, wouldn't it be more
productive to have this discussion on talk@ instead of talk-us?

 Harald.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Brian Stromberg 
Wow.

I think it at least merits a discussion. Yes, it's a political decision but
not so ridiculous as to dismiss it as part of a feminist plot.

I would also point out that using a gender-specific term like "man" does
more to maintain division than anything else.

--
Brian

On Mar 10, 2017 4:38 PM, "Joel Holdsworth"  wrote:

No.

"Man" has been a general term for humanity in the English language since
time immemorial.

It is only feminists who wish to divide humanity along gender lines who
have a problem with "man" as a term of reference. Such argumentation is
deliberately divisive, and serves no purpose.

There is no need for the change, or a pointless discussion about such a
change.

Please lets get on with making an awesome map.

Best Regards
Joel Holdsworth



On 10/03/17 14:27, Joshua Houston wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
> phased out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap
> is very inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is
> tagged. I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to
> "human_made" and start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are
> trying to implement a more inclusive language, NASA for instance has
> changed "manned missions" to "crewed missions". I think it is an
> important goal to make OSM inclusive whenever there is a choice.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joshua Houston
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Joel Holdsworth 
Fair enough --- but please be clear that this form of discussion is 
highly divisive in and of itself, and should be treated as such.


It is pointless in the sense that renaming "man_made=" to "human_made=" 
will not help the development of the map in any way. Bike-shedding about 
this only wastes time. It generates a political issue where there need 
be none.


Joel


On 10/03/17 14:45, Ian Dees wrote:

Please keep discussion on topic and positive.

Discouraging further discussion by applying labels such as "pointless"
to someone's opinion makes this list less open to those that believe it
is an important thing to discuss.

Thanks,
Ian
(Your friendly talk-us moderator)


On Mar 10, 2017 16:38, "Joel Holdsworth" > wrote:

No.

"Man" has been a general term for humanity in the English language
since time immemorial.

It is only feminists who wish to divide humanity along gender lines
who have a problem with "man" as a term of reference. Such
argumentation is deliberately divisive, and serves no purpose.

There is no need for the change, or a pointless discussion about
such a change.

Please lets get on with making an awesome map.

Best Regards
Joel Holdsworth



On 10/03/17 14:27, Joshua Houston wrote:

Hi,

It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
phased out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of
OpenStreetMap
is very inclusive and that should be represented even in the way
data is
tagged. I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to
"human_made" and start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are
trying to implement a more inclusive language, NASA for instance has
changed "manned missions" to "crewed missions". I think it is an
important goal to make OSM inclusive whenever there is a choice.

Thanks!

Joshua Houston


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us





___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Ian Dees 
Please keep discussion on topic and positive.

Discouraging further discussion by applying labels such as "pointless" to
someone's opinion makes this list less open to those that believe it is an
important thing to discuss.

Thanks,
Ian
(Your friendly talk-us moderator)


On Mar 10, 2017 16:38, "Joel Holdsworth"  wrote:

No.

"Man" has been a general term for humanity in the English language since
time immemorial.

It is only feminists who wish to divide humanity along gender lines who
have a problem with "man" as a term of reference. Such argumentation is
deliberately divisive, and serves no purpose.

There is no need for the change, or a pointless discussion about such a
change.

Please lets get on with making an awesome map.

Best Regards
Joel Holdsworth



On 10/03/17 14:27, Joshua Houston wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
> phased out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap
> is very inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is
> tagged. I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to
> "human_made" and start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are
> trying to implement a more inclusive language, NASA for instance has
> changed "manned missions" to "crewed missions". I think it is an
> important goal to make OSM inclusive whenever there is a choice.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joshua Houston
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Joel Holdsworth 

No.

"Man" has been a general term for humanity in the English language since 
time immemorial.


It is only feminists who wish to divide humanity along gender lines who 
have a problem with "man" as a term of reference. Such argumentation is 
deliberately divisive, and serves no purpose.


There is no need for the change, or a pointless discussion about such a 
change.


Please lets get on with making an awesome map.

Best Regards
Joel Holdsworth


On 10/03/17 14:27, Joshua Houston wrote:

Hi,

It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be
phased out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap
is very inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is
tagged. I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to
"human_made" and start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are
trying to implement a more inclusive language, NASA for instance has
changed "manned missions" to "crewed missions". I think it is an
important goal to make OSM inclusive whenever there is a choice.

Thanks!

Joshua Houston


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] Key:man_made... Outdated language?

2017-03-10 Thread Joshua Houston 
Hi,

It occurred to me that "man_made" is an outdated term that should be phased
out from OpenStreetMap language. The philosophy of OpenStreetMap is very
inclusive and that should be represented even in the way data is tagged.
I'd like to propose to change the key from "man_made" to "human_made" and
start a discussion on it. Many parts of society are trying to implement a
more inclusive language, NASA for instance has changed "manned missions" to
"crewed missions". I think it is an important goal to make OSM inclusive
whenever there is a choice.

Thanks!

Joshua Houston
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] weeklyOSM #346 28/02/2017-06/03/2017

2017-03-10 Thread weeklyteam 
The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 346,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all things 
happening in the openstreetmap world:

http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/8845/

Enjoy!

weeklyOSM? 
who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] State of the Map US 2017 Dates Announced

2017-03-10 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> Hi everyone!
>
> OpenStreetMap US announced earlier that the State of the Map US event in
> 2017 will be in Boulder, Colorado this year, but we didn't have the dates
> set in stone yet:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.us/2017/01/sotmus-2017-announcement/
>
> We were able to solidify the dates and announced today that it's happening
> October 19-22, 2017:
>

Dang, hopefully I can make it but I think my boyfriend's on staff at a
convention being held just outside I.X.L., OK that weekend...seems like I
keep making this time and space dance with OSM US, like it being held in
Portland a month after I made it back home after getting stranded out
there.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us