Re: [Talk-us] HI: Hawaii GIS Data

[Shaun McDonald]

On 5 Dec 2009, at 00:47, Scott Atwood wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Shaun McDonald  
> wrote:
> Why oh why oh why do some people insist on wasting time trying to import 
> loads of data?
> 
> Please take a read of 
> http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/archives/2009/11/10/the-pottery-club/
> 
> Please go out and map what's out on the ground, as usually imported data is 
> of a rather low standard or the import isn't done right, and it's really, 
> really hard to do an import correctly.
> 
> 
> On 5 Dec 2009, at 00:00, Scott Atwood wrote:
> 
>> The Hawaii state government has a sizable repository of GIS data that could 
>> be useful to import into OSM:  http://hawaii.gov/dbedt/gis/.  I have 
>> contacted a manager in the GIS department by telephone and verified that 
>> this GIS data is in the public domain, and therefore available for import 
>> into OSM.
>> 
>> Hawaii has pretty good road coverage from a import of 2007 TIGER data on 
>> O'ahu, and an ongoing import of 2009 TIGER data for the remaining islands, 
>> so the roads data provided by the GIS department probably doesn't need to be 
>> considered.But there is a lot of other data available that isn't 
>> currently in OSM, such as:
>> 
>>* Streams, waterfalls, dams, and canals (Does the National Hydrography 
>> Dataset cover Hawaii?)
>>* Coral reefs
>>* Offshore islets
>>* Mile markers
> 
> Not so sure these belong in OSM.
> 
> I would argue that streams, waterfalls, dams, and canals are extremely 
> relevant things to map.Many of these features are in areas of heavy 
> vegetation and extremely rugged terrain which makes surveying them by hand or 
> via satellite imagery very challenging.
> 
> Coral reefs are extremely import to coastal navigation, recreation, and 
> tourism in Hawaii, and once again, very difficult to accurately map.
> 
> Offshore islets can probably be mapped via satellite imagery.  Mapping them 
> by direct survey is difficult or impossible, since many of them are protected 
> seabird sanctuaries and/or hazardous to get to.
> 
> Road navigation in Hawaii tends to reference mile markers far more often than 
> in any other location I've been to.  Travel guides often give directions 
> using mile markers as landmarks, and tourist maps often include mile markers.

Erm, I was only referring to the mile markers. Those other items would probably 
be useful for openseamap.

>  
>>* Trails
>>* Parks
>>* Schools
> 
> Um haven't these already been imported? Not just current ones, but historic 
> ones too, and schools that opened 4 years ago aren't in there?
> 
> Some trails, have been import, some have been manually survey.  Many are 
> missing entirely.
> 
> National Park boundaries have  been imported, but most other parks seem to be 
> missing.
> 
> I don't know about schools on O'ahu, but there doesn't seem to have been any 
> schools imported on the neighbor islands. 

Again, I wasn't clear enough, and was primarily referring to the schools.

> 
>>* Hotels
>>* Assorted administrative boundaries
> 
> You'll probably find that most of these are in there already.
> 
> Hotels, no.  Some administrative boundaries have been imported.   Others have 
> not.
> 

Grr, seems like a bit of a failure on my part with that mail and not being 
clear enough that I was only referring to the last item in each section.

>  
> Do some publicity, run some mapping parties. The reason OSM has worked in 
> Germany is due to plenty of publicity.
> 
> Mapping parties are great and will certainly help improve the quality of the 
> more compact urbanized land areas of Hawaii.  But much of the state is 
> undeveloped and difficult to access, so importing data from external sources 
> should be considered as part of the strategy of filling out the map.

I'd recommend doing the import on an item by item basis based on other 
surrounding OSM data rather than pull all the data in automatically, thus it 
would be more like a copying or tracing exercise.

Shaun

> 
> -Scott
> 
> -- 
> Scott Atwood
> 
> The hill isn't in the way, it is the way.
> 
> 

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Re: [Talk-us] HI: Hawaii GIS Data

[Shaun McDonald]

Why oh why oh why do some people insist on wasting time trying to import loads 
of data?

Please take a read of 
http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/archives/2009/11/10/the-pottery-club/

Please go out and map what's out on the ground, as usually imported data is of 
a rather low standard or the import isn't done right, and it's really, really 
hard to do an import correctly.


On 5 Dec 2009, at 00:00, Scott Atwood wrote:

> The Hawaii state government has a sizable repository of GIS data that could 
> be useful to import into OSM:  http://hawaii.gov/dbedt/gis/.  I have 
> contacted a manager in the GIS department by telephone and verified that this 
> GIS data is in the public domain, and therefore available for import into OSM.
> 
> Hawaii has pretty good road coverage from a import of 2007 TIGER data on 
> O'ahu, and an ongoing import of 2009 TIGER data for the remaining islands, so 
> the roads data provided by the GIS department probably doesn't need to be 
> considered.But there is a lot of other data available that isn't 
> currently in OSM, such as:
> 
>* Streams, waterfalls, dams, and canals (Does the National Hydrography 
> Dataset cover Hawaii?)
>* Coral reefs
>* Offshore islets
>* Mile markers

Not so sure these belong in OSM.

>* Trails
>* Parks
>* Schools

Um haven't these already been imported? Not just current ones, but historic 
ones too, and schools that opened 4 years ago aren't in there?

>* Hotels
>* Assorted administrative boundaries

You'll probably find that most of these are in there already.

>* Land use categorization.
>* etc.
> 
> There has been relatively little mapping activity in Hawaii outside of O'ahu, 
> so these data sets are unlikely to conflict with much existing work on the 
> neighbor islands.  More careful consideration would have to be given for data 
> imports for O'ahu.
> 

Do some publicity, run some mapping parties. The reason OSM has worked in 
Germany is due to plenty of publicity.

Shaun

> I have not made any investigation into the accuracy of any of this data yet, 
> and honestly, I'm not sure what sort of tools or techniques would be useful 
> for evaluating the accuracy.
> 
> -Scott
>  
> 
> -- 
> Scott Atwood
> 
> The hill isn't in the way, it is the way.
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Whole-US Garmin Map Update

[Shaun McDonald]

On 18 Nov 2009, at 23:50, Greg Troxel wrote:

>  --route is AFAIK not turned on in cloudmade, so those maps wouldn't be
>  routable.  If cloudmade has enabled routing, that would be good to
>  know.  (Plus there's the noname roads being big and red.)

If you want them to be routable, then send a feature request to 
supp...@cloudmade.com.

Shaun
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Re: [Talk-us] More Garmin Maps

[Shaun McDonald]

On 18 Nov 2009, at 01:11, Dave Hansen wrote:

> I don't think the Cloudmade-created maps I posted last time are really
> meant for daily use.  I think they're intended to help people track down
> and survey things like missing street names. 

That's correct, they are the error/noname edition.

Shaun

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Re: [Talk-us] Super Wal-Mart Tag

[Shaun McDonald]

On 13 Nov 2009, at 14:23, Ian Dees wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Kate  wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Shaun McDonald
>  wrote:
> > Going back to the original question, each shop should be it's own node or
> > area, thus the problem of multiple names isn't an issue any more. You place
> > the nodes of the shops roughly where they are within the shopping centre.
> > If you do have something that has multiple names, you are better stating
> > what the name is. For example if a bridge has a name, you could use name=
> > for the street name that runs on top of the bridge, and name:bridge for the
> > name of the bridge itself. I'm sure there are better examples.
> > Shaun
> 
> If we used separate nodes, it could be possible to associated them all
> together and with the building using a relation.  For the various
> pieces of a Wal-mart, I would use the "site" relation.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Site
> 
> -Kate
> 
> 
> Why are we tagging the individual pieces of the building? I would propose 
> that we come up with a tag like "box_store" or something that could apply to 
> Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc.* Sure there are other stores inside, but how do we 
> tag malls now?

I am yet to see an example of a shopping mall where someone has done every 
street inside, though it has been talked about on several occasions. I do have 
a couple of examples where every shop on a street has been added and every 
building in a non-covered retail park has added and named. Turn on the data 
layer for both.

http://osm.org/go/0EEBTfiGy- 
http://osm.org/go/evfg2Pi4C-

The main issue with shopping malls is the fact they are over several 
layers/levels.

Shaun

> 
> * Or in the US we could tag it as a church with denomination=consumerism :-)
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Re: [Talk-us] Super Wal-Mart Tag

[Shaun McDonald]

Going back to the original question, each shop should be it's own node or area, 
thus the problem of multiple names isn't an issue any more. You place the nodes 
of the shops roughly where they are within the shopping centre.

If you do have something that has multiple names, you are better stating what 
the name is. For example if a bridge has a name, you could use name= for the 
street name that runs on top of the bridge, and name:bridge for the name of the 
bridge itself. I'm sure there are better examples.

Shaun

On 13 Nov 2009, at 09:15, Richard Shank wrote:

> So it the general consensus to use name = first name, name_1 = second_name, 
> name_2 = third name instead of name=first name;second name; third name?  I've 
> be adding names to motorway_junctions and I've see the semicolon format, so I 
> started do the same myself.
> 
> Richard
> 
> Shaun McDonald wrote:
>> 
>> The semi colon approach has been a method in use for many years now, but 
>> it's generally avoided. Unfortunately we don't have database normalisation 
>> with our tagging system. The Keys must be unique. Previous version of the 
>> API allowed keys that were not unique, however nothing used it as the 
>> editors generally didn't support it, and it would give unpredictable results 
>> when coming to things like rendering, as either one would be used.
>> 
>> Shaun
>> 
>> On 13 Nov 2009, at 04:09, Chris Hunter wrote:
>> 
>>> That's what database normalization addresses.  BTW, this is the first time 
>>> I've heard of the semicolon approach.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately, that doesn't work.  The tags must be unique on the name
>>> side.  That's why you see name, name_1, name_2.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
>>> Crynwr supports open source software
>>> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
>>> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
>>> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Super Wal-Mart Tag

[Shaun McDonald]

The semi colon approach has been a method in use for many years now, but it's 
generally avoided. Unfortunately we don't have database normalisation with our 
tagging system. The Keys must be unique. Previous version of the API allowed 
keys that were not unique, however nothing used it as the editors generally 
didn't support it, and it would give unpredictable results when coming to 
things like rendering, as either one would be used.

Shaun

On 13 Nov 2009, at 04:09, Chris Hunter wrote:

> That's what database normalization addresses.  BTW, this is the first time 
> I've heard of the semicolon approach.
> 
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, that doesn't work.  The tags must be unique on the name
> side.  That's why you see name, name_1, name_2.
> 
> --
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] NY: I-87 Junction with I-84 in Newburgh

[Shaun McDonald]

On 2 Nov 2009, at 23:54, Richard Welty wrote:

> in the absence of a talk-ny list, i'm going to prefix NY State local
> things with NY: for now.
> if we get obnoxious enough, we can get pushed to our own list, right?

There was a recent discussion on this. The US community isn't ready  
for more local lists yet as there aren't enough of you.
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2009-October/001882.html

Shaun


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Re: [Talk-us] Parking on the Street, Variable Availability Parking

[Shaun McDonald]

On 23 Oct 2009, at 18:02, Christopher Covington wrote:

>> From the wiki,
>
> "Parking spaces along streets are currently not tagged. Only parking
> lots of reasonable size are mapped, not every place where a car  
> could be
> parked."
>
> Is there any solution to this? At, for example, the student apartment
> complexes in Blacksburg, VA, there are very few parking spaces where
> non-residents can park. Some of these are on the street. It would be
> very useful to map these spaces. Any way to do it that would be better
> than drawing thin strips?
>
> Also, any tips on adding variable availability public parking
> information, i.e. reserved for faculty staff M-F 9-5, public otherwise
> or metered M-F 9-5, free otherwise?

I see amenity=parking being only for public car parks, typically for  
supermarkets, or multi storey car parks in city centres. On street  
parking has been marked on the map for at least the past two years.  
Take for example George Street in Edinburgh: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.95277&lon=-3.20131&zoom=17&layers=B000FTF
Here is a great photo showing the on street parking 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34887...@n02/3939373071

Shaun


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Re: [Talk-us] Thoughts on tagging a line of trees?

[Shaun McDonald]

Um you would then have a highway=footway crossing the barrier. You can  
_only_ route where there is a way. Barriers are not routable.

Shaun

On 17 Oct 2009, at 15:28, Anthony wrote:

> When there's room to walk between the trees (and the "barrier" is only
> a barrier to non-foot-traffic).
>
> From the aerial, it's not clear whether or not that's the case.
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Shaun McDonald
>  wrote:
>> When would that be appropriate? A link to a photo would be useful.
>>
>> Shaun
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2009, at 14:51, Anthony wrote:
>>
>>> Along with foot=yes if appropriate?
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Shaun McDonald
>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> barrier=hedge is what I would use.
>>>>
>>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dhedge
>>>>
>>>> Shaun
>>>>
>>>> On 17 Oct 2009, at 08:50, David ``Smith'' wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have a suggestion on mapping/tagging the lines of  
>>>>> trees
>>>>> that tend to be found along rural property lines?
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:
>>>>> <http://maps.yahoo.com/ 
>>>>> #mvt=s&lat=39.837378&lon=-83.218955&zoom=17>
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't quite fit the wiki description for barrier=hedge, and
>>>>> making a long, thin, closed polygon of natural=wood doesn't seem  
>>>>> right
>>>>> either.  I think there should be a way to tag this as a simple  
>>>>> linear
>>>>> feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> As actually mapping these things is a low priority for me (and
>>>>> probably most of you) this is mostly a hypothetical discussion.   
>>>>> But
>>>>> it would be nice to know of an established way to do this.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David "Smith"
>>>>> a.k.a. Vid the Kid
>>>>> a.k.a. Bír'd'in
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this font make me look fat?
>>>>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Thoughts on tagging a line of trees?

[Shaun McDonald]

When would that be appropriate? A link to a photo would be useful.

Shaun

On 17 Oct 2009, at 14:51, Anthony wrote:

> Along with foot=yes if appropriate?
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Shaun McDonald
>  wrote:
>> barrier=hedge is what I would use.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dhedge
>>
>> Shaun
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2009, at 08:50, David ``Smith'' wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone have a suggestion on mapping/tagging the lines of trees
>>> that tend to be found along rural property lines?
>>>
>>> Example:
>>> <http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=s&lat=39.837378&lon=-83.218955&zoom=17>
>>>
>>> They don't quite fit the wiki description for barrier=hedge, and
>>> making a long, thin, closed polygon of natural=wood doesn't seem  
>>> right
>>> either.  I think there should be a way to tag this as a simple  
>>> linear
>>> feature.
>>>
>>> As actually mapping these things is a low priority for me (and
>>> probably most of you) this is mostly a hypothetical discussion.  But
>>> it would be nice to know of an established way to do this.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David "Smith"
>>> a.k.a. Vid the Kid
>>> a.k.a. Bír'd'in
>>>
>>> Does this font make me look fat?
>>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Thoughts on tagging a line of trees?

[Shaun McDonald]

barrier=hedge is what I would use.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dhedge

Shaun

On 17 Oct 2009, at 08:50, David ``Smith'' wrote:

> Does anyone have a suggestion on mapping/tagging the lines of trees
> that tend to be found along rural property lines?
>
> Example:
> 
>
> They don't quite fit the wiki description for barrier=hedge, and
> making a long, thin, closed polygon of natural=wood doesn't seem right
> either.  I think there should be a way to tag this as a simple linear
> feature.
>
> As actually mapping these things is a low priority for me (and
> probably most of you) this is mostly a hypothetical discussion.  But
> it would be nice to know of an established way to do this.
>
> -- 
> David "Smith"
> a.k.a. Vid the Kid
> a.k.a. Bír'd'in
>
> Does this font make me look fat?
>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] TIGER Addressing Import

[Shaun McDonald]

On 3 Oct 2009, at 17:42, Mike N. wrote:
>
>   It needs to follow the road way to some extent, but it might be  
> possible
> to simplify by reducing node count so that it doesn't exactly follow  
> the
> road.   In the samples I have seen, house placement is much  
> different than
> the road path when there is a curve.
>

You might find that it is faster and easier to get lots of people to  
go out there and collect the information, than to try and find a way  
to import the addressing. It is also more fun from a community  
perspective and you might find that the end result is better.

>   A final note, I don't know how much address data already exists in  
> OSM,

If you want to see where there is addressing take a look at the green  
on this map rending.

http://matt.sandbox.cloudmade.com/?lat=37.779399&lng=-122.424774&zoom=11&layer=3

Shaun


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Re: [Talk-us] Restriction tagging

[Shaun McDonald]

Photos would be really, really useful for examples.

On 29 Sep 2009, at 13:33, Anthony wrote:

I have to admit I'm curious.  What are the signs for that, and where  
are they?


On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Nakor  wrote:
 Hello,

I am wondering how you can map that when you enter a highway from a
specific ramp you cannot exit at the next one. Please see
http://osm.org/go/ZXCt9WHU-- where it is forbidden driving from I-94
east to M-10 to exit M-10 at exit 4C. Is what I did in relation
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/275622 correct?

 Thanks,

 N.

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