Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
On 11/10/13 1:37 AM, Elliott Plack wrote: In Baltimore County, MD, we have 0 incorporated towns with nearly 1M people. There are however plenty of informal towns that have become CDPs. I believe the Census uses ZCTAs to construct the CDPs, so they're based on ZIP Codes, which in turn are based on postal routes. maybe in MD, but not here in upstate NY. i have an Averill Park zip code, but am a mile or so outside of the Averill Park CDP. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
Paul Norman penor...@mac.com writes: From: Richard Welty [mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net] Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs the latter, i think. there are parts of the US where the CDP boundaries do contribute to the map. I think there's two different cases that need to be distinguished between. One is where there are counties or other similar administrative structures, the other is where there are not. If what you mean lines up with 1) in some areas, CDP boundaries actually have some relevance, and people know where they are and use for things. In those areas it makes sense to have them in OSM. 2) in some areas, CDP boundaries are merely for the census, not understood or known about by more than a handful of government people, and have almost no real-world relevance. In those areas the CDP boundaries shouldn't be in OSM. then it sounds good to me. I live in a type 2 area, where every bit of land is in both a city/town and a county. (I realize that in Alaska there are some areas where CDPs seem to matter.) pgpW6dhg2Imvo.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: (I realize that in Alaska there are some areas where CDPs seem to matter.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda%2C_Maryland - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
In Baltimore County, MD, we have 0 incorporated towns with nearly 1M people. There are however plenty of informal towns that have become CDPs. I believe the Census uses ZCTAs to construct the CDPs, so they're based on ZIP Codes, which in turn are based on postal routes. I think humans tend to like boundaries in general, so it is probably natural they end up on OSM. I think that if people identify with them, and there are no other admin boundaries, then go for it. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: (I realize that in Alaska there are some areas where CDPs seem to matter.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda%2C_Maryland - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
CDPs are used by Census and other Federal agencies, OMB in particular. They are used as a tool to administer programs, for example Federal block grants. I'm not sure they have much use beyond that. State/tribal/county/municipal boundaries OTOH are much more useful and likely to reflect a consensus between those branches of government. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: On 11/6/13 4:52 PM, Greg Troxel wrote: Are you aware of any regulatory impact of crossing a CDP boundary (ignoring impacts of crossing other boundaries that coincide)? I am not, and I have no idea where the CDP boundaries are around me. CDP boundaries are worse, really, than that. i discovered in working through boundaries downstate (Rockland and Westchester Counties) that the Census Bureau had substantially changed a bunch of CDP boundaries between 2008 and 2013, downsizing a bunch of them quite a lot. i thought they were for comparing counts census to census, but now i really don't know what they're for if the boundaries can change that much. All in all, I think CDP boundaries should be either removed from OSM, or changed to have some boundary=census tag, if they are useful the latter, i think. there are parts of the US where the CDP boundaries do contribute to the map. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
From: Richard Welty [mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net] Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs the latter, i think. there are parts of the US where the CDP boundaries do contribute to the map. I think there's two different cases that need to be distinguished between. One is where there are counties or other similar administrative structures, the other is where there are not. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net writes: first of all, CDPs. there's been an ongoing discussion about whether they belong in OSM at all, or whether they deserve their admin_level 8 classification. i have mixed feelings about the first, and am pretty sure we need a new way of classifying them if we keep them. here's some more fuel for the fire. one of the things i've seen in Westchester County is that between 2008 (the source for most of the current CDPs) and 2013, the Census Bureau rather substantially revised a bunch of CDP boundaries, mostly making them much, much smaller. so any 2008 CDP boundary is suspect for being way out of date. given that virtually no one is paying attention, that's a lot of stale, unmaintained data of marginal value sitting around. i'm updating the CDPs where i see these issues, but i'll probably miss some and i think we need to reopen the discussion about CDPs. My view is that CDPs are not actually administrative borders. They denote some area the census thinks is interesting, but they aren't government. Your definition of admin_level having to correspond to elected government seems pleasing, but I think that's putting a US democracy-good spin on it. The real point is that it's actually about government, and something government-y has to change as one crosses the boundary (some laws, zoning code, etc.). I guess my point is just that if some state had the governor appoint per-town dictators, that would still be admin_level, even though there would be no per-town elected government. Are you aware of any regulatory impact of crossing a CDP boundary (ignoring impacts of crossing other boundaries that coincide)? I am not, and I have no idea where the CDP boundaries are around me. All in all, I think CDP boundaries should be either removed from OSM, or changed to have some boundary=census tag, if they are useful pgp1_e2IVmuY1.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
On 11/6/13 4:52 PM, Greg Troxel wrote: Are you aware of any regulatory impact of crossing a CDP boundary (ignoring impacts of crossing other boundaries that coincide)? I am not, and I have no idea where the CDP boundaries are around me. CDP boundaries are worse, really, than that. i discovered in working through boundaries downstate (Rockland and Westchester Counties) that the Census Bureau had substantially changed a bunch of CDP boundaries between 2008 and 2013, downsizing a bunch of them quite a lot. i thought they were for comparing counts census to census, but now i really don't know what they're for if the boundaries can change that much. All in all, I think CDP boundaries should be either removed from OSM, or changed to have some boundary=census tag, if they are useful the latter, i think. there are parts of the US where the CDP boundaries do contribute to the map. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Admin borders in the US: CDPs
first of all, CDPs. there's been an ongoing discussion about whether they belong in OSM at all, or whether they deserve their admin_level 8 classification. i have mixed feelings about the first, and am pretty sure we need a new way of classifying them if we keep them. here's some more fuel for the fire. one of the things i've seen in Westchester County is that between 2008 (the source for most of the current CDPs) and 2013, the Census Bureau rather substantially revised a bunch of CDP boundaries, mostly making them much, much smaller. so any 2008 CDP boundary is suspect for being way out of date. given that virtually no one is paying attention, that's a lot of stale, unmaintained data of marginal value sitting around. i'm updating the CDPs where i see these issues, but i'll probably miss some and i think we need to reopen the discussion about CDPs. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
