Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/10/2011 5:00 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

I don't want ref tags on these, as the shields will quickly get too
cluttered in Mapnik.


Don't tag for your preference for what the renderer should do...

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Kristian Zoerhoff
Point taken. I'm still not clear on the correct syntax for the relation,
though.

--
Kristian M Zoerhoff
On Apr 10, 2011 4:07 PM, "Nathan Edgars II"  wrote:
> On 4/10/2011 5:00 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>> I don't want ref tags on these, as the shields will quickly get too
>> cluttered in Mapnik.
>>
> Don't tag for your preference for what the renderer should do...
>
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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/10/2011 5:19 PM, Kristian Zoerhoff wrote:

Point taken. I'm still not clear on the correct syntax for the relation,
though.


It shouldn't really matter as long as it's consistent, now that the new 
Java XAPI can download relations without their elements. For example, 
http://jxapi.openstreetmap.org/xapi/api/0.6/relation[network=US:IL] will 
give you all the Illinois state route relations. Changing syntax is 
simply a matter of selecting all, making the change, and uploading.


Personally I'd use US:IL:Kane or US:IL:CR with is_in:county=Kane, IL (or 
should this be just Kane?). Others will probably prefer different values.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/10/11 5:00 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:


Would it be:

Big Timber Road. network=us_il_kane


this is a reasonable network tag for the ways.

I don't want ref tags on these, as the shields will quickly get too
cluttered in Mapnik.


that must be a lot of county roads, i haven't perceived a clutter problem
in Rensselaer County, and i have used ref tags ("CR 9" for county route
9) everywhere. note that if you zoom out, mapnik is smart enough to
disappear the county route ref tags past a certain point.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/10/2011 6:34 PM, Richard Welty wrote:

that must be a lot of county roads, i haven't perceived a clutter problem
in Rensselaer County, and i have used ref tags ("CR 9" for county route
9) everywhere. note that if you zoom out, mapnik is smart enough to
disappear the county route ref tags past a certain point.


Disappear the tertiary ref tags, that is (at zoom 12). Secondaries 
disappear at zoom 11, primaries and trunks at 10, and all refs are gone 
at zoom 9. Of course, at any zoom level, it doesn't try to put shields 
in where they won't fit.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Kristian Zoerhoff
Ah, I didn't realize the rules varied by highway class. These are all
tertiary, so this should work out OK.

--
Kristian M Zoerhoff
On Apr 10, 2011 5:41 PM, "Nathan Edgars II"  wrote:
> On 4/10/2011 6:34 PM, Richard Welty wrote:
>> that must be a lot of county roads, i haven't perceived a clutter problem
>> in Rensselaer County, and i have used ref tags ("CR 9" for county route
>> 9) everywhere. note that if you zoom out, mapnik is smart enough to
>> disappear the county route ref tags past a certain point.
>
> Disappear the tertiary ref tags, that is (at zoom 12). Secondaries
> disappear at zoom 11, primaries and trunks at 10, and all refs are gone
> at zoom 9. Of course, at any zoom level, it doesn't try to put shields
> in where they won't fit.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Mike N

On 4/10/2011 6:34 PM, Richard Welty wrote:


Would it be:

Big Timber Road. network=us_il_kane


this is a reasonable network tag for the ways.



  I would expect the Interstate and US relation network tagging 
convention to be extended:


  Interstate - network=US:I
  US - network=US:US
  State - network=US:ST
  County - network=US:ST:county

  ... according to the proposal at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging#Tagging_with_relations_.28proposal.29 
, which seems reasonable.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/10/2011 7:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:

At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?


I don't know what the consensus is.

County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange
County route S18 as:

network="US:CA:Orange"
+ ref="CR S18"


How does this work with routes that cross county lines? California has a 
statewide numbering system, with the letter roughly representing the 
part of the state.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Alan Mintz

At 2011-04-10 16:28, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On 4/10/2011 7:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:

At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?


I don't know what the consensus is.

County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange
County route S18 as:

network="US:CA:Orange"
+ ref="CR S18"


How does this work with routes that cross county lines? California has a 
statewide numbering system, with the letter roughly representing the part 
of the state.


Yup - that is problematic. I think, when I marked Orange County S18 last 
year, I didn't see any other county road tagging to go by. 
http://www.cahighways.org/county.html shows that there are some occurrences 
of this. I apparently expected to break them at the county lines, I guess, 
so as to agree with signage. That is, Orange County S99 would be a 
different route than San Diego S99. network="US:CA:Orange;US:CA:San Diego" 
on the relation seems workable.


 It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by 
those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the case so 
we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an is_in:county tag 
to the individual segments to avoid losing that important info.


I realize this is kind of scattered. On my way out the door.


--
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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/10/2011 8:02 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:

At 2011-04-10 16:28, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

How does this work with routes that cross county lines? California has
a statewide numbering system, with the letter roughly representing the
part of the state.


Yup - that is problematic. I think, when I marked Orange County S18 last
year, I didn't see any other county road tagging to go by.
http://www.cahighways.org/county.html shows that there are some
occurrences of this. I apparently expected to break them at the county
lines, I guess, so as to agree with signage. That is, Orange County S99
would be a different route than San Diego S99.
network="US:CA:Orange;US:CA:San Diego" on the relation seems workable.


They're really not different routes. They could be split at county 
lines, like U.S. Highways are split at state lines, but the network 
should be the same.


It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by
those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the case
so we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an
is_in:county tag to the individual segments to avoid losing that
important info.


How about simply network=US:CA:CR?

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Andrew Cleveland
On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 17:02 -0700, Alan Mintz wrote: 
> At 2011-04-10 16:28, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> >On 4/10/2011 7:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:
> >>At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
> >>>What's the consensus for county roads in the US?
> >>
> >>I don't know what the consensus is.
> >>
> >>County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange
> >>County route S18 as:
> >>
> >>network="US:CA:Orange"
> >>+ ref="CR S18"
> >
> >How does this work with routes that cross county lines? California has a 
> >statewide numbering system, with the letter roughly representing the part 
> >of the state.
> 
> Yup - that is problematic. I think, when I marked Orange County S18 last 
> year, I didn't see any other county road tagging to go by. 
> http://www.cahighways.org/county.html shows that there are some occurrences 
> of this. I apparently expected to break them at the county lines, I guess, 
> so as to agree with signage. That is, Orange County S99 would be a 
> different route than San Diego S99. network="US:CA:Orange;US:CA:San Diego" 
> on the relation seems workable.
> 
>   It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by 
> those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the case so 
> we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an is_in:county tag 
> to the individual segments to avoid losing that important info.
> 
> I realize this is kind of scattered. On my way out the door.
> 
> 
> --
> Alan Mintz 
> 
> 
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Hi,

That's correct that the county routes are grouped into "zones" which
don't necessarily coincide with counties. There are nine zones (A, B, D,
E, G, J, N, R, S).

There are some county route relations here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California/State_Highway_Relations#County_Highways
though it's not set in stone obviously. I guess either US:CA:[zone] or
US:CA:CR as suggested would work.



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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Nathan Mills

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:14:18 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:


It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by
those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the 
case

so we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an
is_in:county tag to the individual segments to avoid losing that
important info.


How about simply network=US:CA:CR?


That's all well and good for California, but what about states like 
Arkansas (and Florida, IIRC) where the county road system is not unique 
to the entire state. I suppose in that case, US:AR:[County] would be the 
appropriate network value? US:AR:CR would be meaningless.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/10/11 8:22 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:14:18 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:


It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by
those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the case
so we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an
is_in:county tag to the individual segments to avoid losing that
important info.


How about simply network=US:CA:CR?


That's all well and good for California, but what about states like 
Arkansas (and Florida, IIRC) where the county road system is not 
unique to the entire state. I suppose in that case, US:AR:[County] 
would be the appropriate network value? US:AR:CR would be meaningless.
most of the US, i think, should be using such a system. there is a 
certain amount

of "US:AR:CR" about, which needs to be fixed in cases where it should
be the county name instead of CR.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-10 Thread Kristian Zoerhoff
Michigan has a similar system, but not very many counties have opted into
the system.

Illinois' system is unique per county, so US:IL:Kane is what I'll be going
with. I even spotted a new route tonight while heading to a hardware store,
so I might make that the guinea pig.

--
Kristian M Zoerhoff
On Apr 10, 2011 7:23 PM, "Andrew Cleveland"  wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-04-10 at 17:02 -0700, Alan Mintz wrote:
>> At 2011-04-10 16:28, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> >On 4/10/2011 7:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:
>> >>At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>> >>>What's the consensus for county roads in the US?
>> >>
>> >>I don't know what the consensus is.
>> >>
>> >>County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag
Orange
>> >>County route S18 as:
>> >>
>> >>network="US:CA:Orange"
>> >>+ ref="CR S18"
>> >
>> >How does this work with routes that cross county lines? California has a

>> >statewide numbering system, with the letter roughly representing the
part
>> >of the state.
>>
>> Yup - that is problematic. I think, when I marked Orange County S18 last
>> year, I didn't see any other county road tagging to go by.
>> http://www.cahighways.org/county.html shows that there are some
occurrences
>> of this. I apparently expected to break them at the county lines, I
guess,
>> so as to agree with signage. That is, Orange County S99 would be a
>> different route than San Diego S99. network="US:CA:Orange;US:CA:San
Diego"
>> on the relation seems workable.
>>
>> It's almost like they defined super-groups of counties identified by
>> those letters. I'll have to crunch that table to see if that's the case
so
>> we could have network=US:CA:S + ref="CR S18". Maybe add an is_in:county
tag
>> to the individual segments to avoid losing that important info.
>>
>> I realize this is kind of scattered. On my way out the door.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alan Mintz 
>>
>>
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>
> Hi,
>
> That's correct that the county routes are grouped into "zones" which
> don't necessarily coincide with counties. There are nine zones (A, B, D,
> E, G, J, N, R, S).
>
> There are some county route relations here:
>
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California/State_Highway_Relations#County_Highways
> though it's not set in stone obviously. I guess either US:CA:[zone] or
> US:CA:CR as suggested would work.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Phil! Gold
* Nathan Mills  [2011-04-10 19:22 -0500]:
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:14:18 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> >How about simply network=US:CA:CR?
> 
> That's all well and good for California, but what about states like
> Arkansas (and Florida, IIRC) where the county road system is not
> unique to the entire state.

In my opinion, there's too much variation in how each state organizes and
numbers its state-and-lower roads to make a uniform, US-wide rule.  I
would say that state highways should be network=US:ST (where "ST" is the
two-letter state abbreviation), and anything further (county roads,
Pennsylvania's primary and secondary state roads, California's
multi-county roads, etc.) would be US:ST:, where the
"" is up to the mappers in that state (and, hopefully,
documented on that state's page on the wiki).

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/11/11 1:47 PM, Phil! Gold wrote:

* Nathan Mills  [2011-04-10 19:22 -0500]:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:14:18 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

How about simply network=US:CA:CR?

That's all well and good for California, but what about states like
Arkansas (and Florida, IIRC) where the county road system is not
unique to the entire state.

In my opinion, there's too much variation in how each state organizes and
numbers its state-and-lower roads to make a uniform, US-wide rule.  I
would say that state highways should be network=US:ST (where "ST" is the
two-letter state abbreviation), and anything further (county roads,
Pennsylvania's primary and secondary state roads, California's
multi-county roads, etc.) would be US:ST:, where the
"" is up to the mappers in that state (and, hopefully,
documented on that state's page on the wiki).


yes.

for the California situation, i think there's an obvious answer, as
the tertiary network appears to be divided into lettered groups:

network=US:CA:A
...

don't attempt to represent the counties, the state has already
defined the "networks" for the tertiaries.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/11/2011 2:05 PM, Richard Welty wrote:

for the California situation, i think there's an obvious answer, as
the tertiary network appears to be divided into lettered groups:

network=US:CA:A


That's not the network any more than US:I:95 is the network for I-195 
and other spurs of I-95.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Nathan Mills

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:47:02 -0400, Phil! Gold wrote:

In my opinion, there's too much variation in how each state organizes 
and

numbers its state-and-lower roads to make a uniform, US-wide rule.  I
would say that state highways should be network=US:ST (where "ST" is 
the

two-letter state abbreviation), and anything further (county roads,
Pennsylvania's primary and secondary state roads, California's
multi-county roads, etc.) would be US:ST:, where the
"" is up to the mappers in that state (and, hopefully,
documented on that state's page on the wiki).


Without some sort of general agreement between areas (as much as is 
possible, anyway) it will be very difficult for renderers to do useful 
things with county road relations. It would be nice if it could be 
boiled down to a few different "classes" of tag for various states. 
California and any states with similar schemes might use US:ST:[A-Z]. 
States with single-county road networks would all use US:ST:County. That 
way we can at least say that all states that number county roads in the 
same way should be tagged in the same way.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Phil! Gold
* Nathan Mills  [2011-04-11 13:08 -0500]:
> Without some sort of general agreement between areas (as much as is
> possible, anyway) it will be very difficult for renderers to do
> useful things with county road relations. It would be nice if it
> could be boiled down to a few different "classes" of tag for various
> states.

I've also thought that it would be nice to have a tag like admin_level
(perhaps the admin_level tag itself) on relations to indicate which level
of government is responsible for maintaining the road.  With that, data
consumers could have a generic tag to get a more universal idea of what
sort of road it is, but could still check the network tag for the
specifics.

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/11/2011 2:26 PM, Phil! Gold wrote:

I've also thought that it would be nice to have a tag like admin_level
(perhaps the admin_level tag itself) on relations to indicate which level
of government is responsible for maintaining the road.


No good. Many local governments maintain portions of state- and 
nationally-numbered highways (both of which are normally 
state-maintained). In fact Baltimore City maintains its portion of 
Interstate 83 (and all other signed routes, except for I-95, I-395, and 
I-895, which the Maryland Transportation Authority maintains). The only 
way to handle this is with operator=* tags on each individual way.


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-11 Thread Phil! Gold
* Nathan Edgars II  [2011-04-11 14:31 -0400]:
> On 4/11/2011 2:26 PM, Phil! Gold wrote:
> >I've also thought that it would be nice to have a tag like admin_level
> >(perhaps the admin_level tag itself) on relations to indicate which level
> >of government is responsible for maintaining the road.
> 
> No good. Many local governments maintain portions of state- and
> nationally-numbered highways (both of which are normally
> state-maintained).

Okay, so maintained was the wrong wording.  The concept I'm try to express
is the general level of the network in question.  The interstates and US
highways are national networks and would be admin_level (or whatever the
tag name) 2.  State networks would be admin_level 4, and so on.

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Paul Johnson
On 04/10/2011 06:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:
> At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
>> What's the consensus for county roads in the US?
> 
> I don't know what the consensus is.
> 
> County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange
> County route S18 as:
> 
> network="US:CA:Orange"
> + ref="CR S18"

I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
reference number.



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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/13/11 10:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

On 04/10/2011 06:25 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:

At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?

I don't know what the consensus is.

County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange
County route S18 as:

network="US:CA:Orange"
+ ref="CR S18"

I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
reference number.

on relations, yes. on ways, no.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Mike N

On 4/13/2011 10:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

>  network="US:CA:Orange"
>  + ref="CR S18"

I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
reference number.



  Most Interstates, US Highways and most state highways include the 
network identifier.   Why should this be dropped for the county roads?


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/13/11 10:54 AM, Mike N wrote:

On 4/13/2011 10:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

>  network="US:CA:Orange"
>  + ref="CR S18"

I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
reference number.



  Most Interstates, US Highways and most state highways include the 
network identifier.   Why should this be dropped for the county roads?
ways vs. relations. we need the identifier on ways because of the data 
consumers
that expect to render directly. for relations, we should in theory be 
only including

the actual reference number.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Kristian M Zoerhoff
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:56:51AM -0400, Richard Welty wrote:
> On 4/13/11 10:54 AM, Mike N wrote:
> >On 4/13/2011 10:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>   network="US:CA:Orange"
>   + ref="CR S18"
> >>I'd drop the CR prefix since that's more of a network identifier than a
> >>reference number.
> >
> >
> >  Most Interstates, US Highways and most state highways include
> >the network identifier.   Why should this be dropped for the
> >county roads?

> ways vs. relations. we need the identifier on ways because of the
> data consumers
> that expect to render directly. for relations, we should in theory
> be only including
> the actual reference number.

Isn't that just tagging for the renderer?

-- 

Kristian Zoerhoff
kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Richard Welty

On 4/13/11 4:18 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:56:51AM -0400, Richard Welty wrote:


ways vs. relations. we need the identifier on ways because of the
data consumers
that expect to render directly. for relations, we should in theory
be only including
the actual reference number.

Isn't that just tagging for the renderer?


it is, but we're way too far gone on that path to do something
that disruptive without a really well thought out mitigation
plan for making such a change.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations

2011-04-13 Thread Nathan Edgars II

On 4/13/2011 4:18 PM, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:56:51AM -0400, Richard Welty wrote:

ways vs. relations. we need the identifier on ways because of the
data consumers
that expect to render directly. for relations, we should in theory
be only including
the actual reference number.


Isn't that just tagging for the renderer?

Perhaps, but it's not tagging *incorrectly* for the renderer. The latter 
is the big no-no.


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[Talk-us] County road network relations (was: REF tags for State Highways on ways)

2011-04-10 Thread Kristian M Zoerhoff
On Sat, Apr 09, 2011 at 10:42:43AM -0400, Richard Weait wrote:
> 
> ref=number portion only
> network=countrycode_statecode_[location details as 
> required]networkcode_variant
> 
> Interstate 95. ref=95; network=us_i
> US 66 historic. ref=66; network=us_us_historic
> York Regional Road 8. ref=8; network=ca_on_york

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?

Right now, my home county (Kane, IL) has a very well mapped and signed 
county road network, but the data is buried in the name_1 tag in OSM, thanks 
to TIGER. I've planned to move these to relations, but I haven't seen any 
other county-level networks, so I'd like to get the syntax right before I 
dive in.

Would it be:

Big Timber Road. network=us_il_kane

I don't want ref tags on these, as the shields will quickly get too 
cluttered in Mapnik.

-- 

Kristian Zoerhoff
kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com

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Re: [Talk-us] County road network relations (was: REF tags for State Highways on ways)

2011-04-10 Thread Alan Mintz

At 2011-04-10 14:00, Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:

What's the consensus for county roads in the US?


I don't know what the consensus is.

County roads in California are of the form [A-Z][0-9][0-9]. I tag Orange 
County route S18 as:


network="US:CA:Orange"
+ ref="CR S18"

--
Alan Mintz 


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