Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-23 Thread andrzej zaborowski 
On 23 March 2017 at 17:19, Eric Ladner  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:25 AM andrzej zaborowski 
> wrote:
>> Unfortunately it looks like someone has started deleting the areas you
>> found, I looked at a random neighborhood and they were still visible
>> in the tiles but the map data shows only the small ones, now
>> unconnected to anything as the bigger ones are missing.  Haven't
>> looked at the edits history.
>>
>
> Nobody objected so I'm going through the area and removing the small
> driveway areas and replacing larger ones with service roads and/or parking
> areas as appropriate.

Ah I now see where you proposed this.  You should first contact the
original authors in any case.

It is a shame to lose all the work done when it is easy to retag
properly.  On the other hand it didn't seem too precise and could be
easier to replace than improve.  In any case I wouldn't delete it
before having something to replace the data.  It is orthogonal to the
highway centerlines -- one can exist without the other but eventually
both are useful and both will be added at some point.

Best regards

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-23 Thread Rihards 
On 2017.03.23. 18:19, Eric Ladner wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:25 AM andrzej zaborowski  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Unfortunately it looks like someone has started deleting the areas you
> found, I looked at a random neighborhood and they were still visible
> in the tiles but the map data shows only the small ones, now
> unconnected to anything as the bigger ones are missing.  Haven't
> looked at the edits history.
> 
> Nobody objected so I'm going through the area and removing the small
> driveway areas and replacing larger ones with service roads and/or
> parking areas as appropriate.

if possible, replacing the smaller areas with ways as well would be great.
detailed map can be useful to determine from which side to approach some
property, and also for marketing reasons - the better osm looks, the
more people will be likely to use it :)
-- 
 Rihards

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-23 Thread Eric Ladner 
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:25 AM andrzej zaborowski 
wrote:

Hi,

Unfortunately it looks like someone has started deleting the areas you
found, I looked at a random neighborhood and they were still visible
in the tiles but the map data shows only the small ones, now
unconnected to anything as the bigger ones are missing.  Haven't
looked at the edits history.


Nobody objected so I'm going through the area and removing the small
driveway areas and replacing larger ones with service roads and/or parking
areas as appropriate.



Best regards
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-23 Thread andrzej zaborowski 
Hi,

On 22 March 2017 at 19:41, Eric Ladner  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 1:07 PM Mike N  wrote:
>> On 3/22/2017 2:02 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>> > Are small driveways offensive, or is it just the polygonal ones that
>> > don't connect to anything?
>>
>> To me, it's just the disconnected polygons.   Small driveways don't hurt
>> anything, and can only provide information such as telling self-driving
>> cars which driveway to pull into.
>
> Really, any "highway=*" drawn as an outline rather than a center line is a
> problem.   Routers and other processing code expects to follow the way
> segments, not honor its area as somewhere you can drive.

The current most popular tag for this is area:highway I believe and
there's quite a lot of area mapping going on in OSM now, and there are
some potential uses in addition to rendering.  Originally the
highway=* tag plus area=yes was used but that was problematic for
various reasons including confusing routers that don't support the
area mapping (all the popular ones..) and they have been long
retagged.  Note that the area:highway polygons are not supposed to be
connected to the centerlines, only between themselves.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/area:highway

Unfortunately it looks like someone has started deleting the areas you
found, I looked at a random neighborhood and they were still visible
in the tiles but the map data shows only the small ones, now
unconnected to anything as the bigger ones are missing.  Haven't
looked at the edits history.

Best regards

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-23 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > I map driveway when the house is set a distance from the main road, often
> > time when the house can't be seen from the road. Mainly rural areas. I
> > figure that it might help volunteer fire and rescue operations.
>
>
> In many rural areas, such drives are now required to be Named Private
> Ways with appropriate signage, for just such assistance. (County-wide
> consolidated E-911 dispatch is driving this in e.g. Maine.)
>

Seems to vary quite a bit by area; I'm surprised to hear about Maine on
that.  Previously the only place I knew of with this practice was select
neighborhoods in El Paso County, Colorado
.  Mostly because I kept
coming across named private ways that were named by people who were
apparently resentful of the practice, with the topper being A Dog Will Lick
His Butt But Won't Eat A Pickle Road
.  The more common practice
I've seen is to address number away from the nearest town and post the
address number at the end of the driveway on a name sign blank.  This can
get fairly laughable in remote regions, I've seen house numbers approach 7
figures as a result.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Tod Fitch 

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 4:05 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Clifford Snow  
> wrote:
>> I map driveway when the house is set a distance from the main road, often
>> time when the house can't be seen from the road. Mainly rural areas. I
>> figure that it might help volunteer fire and rescue operations.
> 
> 
> In many rural areas, such drives are now required to be Named Private
> Ways with appropriate signage, for just such assistance. (County-wide
> consolidated E-911 dispatch is driving this in e.g. Maine.)
> 

I guess that means if I visit someone in Maine that my search for an address 
may end up with many thousand of matches on “Private Way”.

Sounds like they have lousy official maps that omit things like driveways and 
are pushing the problem off on individual property owners. It would make more 
sense to me to have the driveway labeled with the housenumber(s) and street 
name for the official address(es) found on the driveway. If I were driving an 
ambulance or fire engine that would help me more than having a multitude of 
“Private Way” signs, none of which were obviously the “123 I Need Help Now 
Road” my unit was dispatched to. Oh well, bureaucratic decisions don’t always 
make sense.

Cheers!

smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> I map driveway when the house is set a distance from the main road, often
> time when the house can't be seen from the road. Mainly rural areas. I
> figure that it might help volunteer fire and rescue operations.


In many rural areas, such drives are now required to be Named Private
Ways with appropriate signage, for just such assistance. (County-wide
consolidated E-911 dispatch is driving this in e.g. Maine.)

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Clifford Snow 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> I'm asking because I've been mapping driveways along with building
> outlines in my own neighbourhood - partly to get correct street directions
> when the driveway to a house is on a different street from the one the
> house faces and the mailbox is on. I'll be glad to take the driveways out
> again if they're expected to cause trouble somewhere.


I map driveway when the house is set a distance from the main road, often
time when the house can't be seen from the road. Mainly rural areas. I
figure that it might help volunteer fire and rescue operations. Rarely
short one because why.

Clifford


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Eric Ladner 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 1:07 PM Mike N  wrote:

> On 3/22/2017 2:02 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> > Are small driveways offensive, or is it just the polygonal ones that
> > don't connect to anything?
>
> To me, it's just the disconnected polygons.   Small driveways don't hurt
> anything, and can only provide information such as telling self-driving
> cars which driveway to pull into.
>

Really, any "highway=*" drawn as an outline rather than a center line is a
problem.   Routers and other processing code expects to follow the way
segments, not honor its area as somewhere you can drive.

I have no problem with driveways that are drawn as linear ways and connect
to things.  Personally, I don't draw short driveways in a neighborhood
where the driveway is like 30 or 40 feet long, but do where there's
something odd going on (house is very far back from the road or some other
situation where it's not obvious how to get to some building).

Eric
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Mike N 

On 3/22/2017 2:02 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

Are small driveways offensive, or is it just the polygonal ones that
don't connect to anything?


To me, it's just the disconnected polygons.   Small driveways don't hurt 
anything, and can only provide information such as telling self-driving 
cars which driveway to pull into.


___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Eric Ladner  wrote:

> I can clean it up (manually), if everybody agrees.
>   * remove small polygonal driveways
>   * convert larger polygonal highways to actual highways where appropriate
>
>
Are small driveways offensive, or is it just the polygonal ones that don't
connect to anything?
I agree that this mapping party rather left a mess.

I'm asking because I've been mapping driveways along with building outlines
in my own neighbourhood - partly to get correct street directions when the
driveway to a house is on a different street from the one the house faces
and the mailbox is on. I'll be glad to take the driveways out again if
they're expected to cause trouble somewhere.

Neighbourhood in question:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/42.8261/-73.8832=N

Kevin

PS: I'll get to detailed mapping farther afield once the snow is gone.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Eric Ladner 
I can clean it up (manually), if everybody agrees.
  * remove small polygonal driveways
  * convert larger polygonal highways to actual highways where appropriate

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:27 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 4:59 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2017 7:49 AM, "Paul Johnson"  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Eric Ladner 
> wrote:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677
>
> So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.
>
>
>  This really "feels" like a botched import that has the potential to
> become something actually good.  I've reached out.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/38292137
>
>
> I noticed this yesterday when working on broken relations... It doesn't
> look like an import (mostly because they used iD and the digitization looks
> like hand drawn iD) but the tagging doesn't look right. I'd say it's a
> mapping project (they called it a "draw party") with good intentions but
> that might need some tagging cleanup.
>
>
> At least the stuff I first notice looking at that in JOSM (highway=* drawn
> as polygons without an area tag and also including a landuse=residential)
> are from single commits from a mapper that was active for several months a
> few years ago. Change set claims source is Bing. Sounds like a well meaning
> but flawed contribution by a new mapper who has now moved on from OSM.
>
>
>
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Tod Fitch 

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 4:59 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 22, 2017 7:49 AM, "Paul Johnson"  > wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Eric Ladner  > wrote:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677 
> 
> 
> So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.
> 
>  This really "feels" like a botched import that has the potential to become 
> something actually good.  I've reached out.  
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/38292137 
> 
> 
> I noticed this yesterday when working on broken relations... It doesn't look 
> like an import (mostly because they used iD and the digitization looks like 
> hand drawn iD) but the tagging doesn't look right. I'd say it's a mapping 
> project (they called it a "draw party") with good intentions but that might 
> need some tagging cleanup.

At least the stuff I first notice looking at that in JOSM (highway=* drawn as 
polygons without an area tag and also including a landuse=residential) are from 
single commits from a mapper that was active for several months a few years 
ago. Change set claims source is Bing. Sounds like a well meaning but flawed 
contribution by a new mapper who has now moved on from OSM.





smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Eric Ladner 
I think Ian is correct.  Looks like a mapping party.

I tracked back some of the editors and found other places around the
country (but mostly near LA) where residential areas were mapped with
excruciating detail, but sloppy drawing, bad tagging, etc. (see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/34.16030/-117.41155 or
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/34.16718/-117.47586 as examples)

It needs more than tagging cleanup, IMO.  Drawing a 30 foot long driveway
as a closed "highway=service" that's not even connected to the main road is
just bad.  ~40,000 nodes in that one area for something that is close to
useless.  It looks pretty on the map, but it's really adding nothing to the
map intelligence wise (can't be used for routing, points out something
that's painfully obvious).  And the houses in one area (second link above),
everything in the yard was mapped EXCEPT the house, and in the houses'
case, it looks like they mapped something in the back yard or front yard
and tagged it as a building.

It's a shame because it's a lot of work by some people that are mapping in
a vacuum.  Their time would have been better spent by adding address nodes
and learning how to draw building footprints correctly.

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:59 AM Ian Dees  wrote:

>
>
> On Mar 22, 2017 7:49 AM, "Paul Johnson"  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Eric Ladner 
> wrote:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677
>
> So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.
>
>
>  This really "feels" like a botched import that has the potential to
> become something actually good.  I've reached out.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/38292137
>
>
> I noticed this yesterday when working on broken relations... It doesn't
> look like an import (mostly because they used iD and the digitization looks
> like hand drawn iD) but the tagging doesn't look right. I'd say it's a
> mapping project (they called it a "draw party") with good intentions but
> that might need some tagging cleanup.
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Ian Dees 
On Mar 22, 2017 7:49 AM, "Paul Johnson"  wrote:

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Eric Ladner  wrote:

> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677
>
> So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.
>

 This really "feels" like a botched import that has the potential to become
something actually good.  I've reached out.  http://www.openstreetmap.org/
changeset/38292137


I noticed this yesterday when working on broken relations... It doesn't
look like an import (mostly because they used iD and the digitization looks
like hand drawn iD) but the tagging doesn't look right. I'd say it's a
mapping project (they called it a "draw party") with good intentions but
that might need some tagging cleanup.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

Re: [Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:33 AM, Eric Ladner  wrote:

> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677
>
> So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.
>

 This really "feels" like a botched import that has the potential to become
something actually good.  I've reached out.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/38292137
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

[Talk-us] Is this a bad import or an experiment?

2017-03-22 Thread Eric Ladner 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/33.74152/-116.29677

So much wrongness..  I don't even know where to start in describing it.

Eric
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us