Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
2014-09-16 7:27 GMT+02:00 Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com: Woot! Woot! If you are adding a speed limit to a node where a sign is located and if you add traffic_sign=maxspeed along with your maxspeed=25 mph, then JOSM will show you a cute little sign verses a blue dot. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/147417922 I'm doing this and also adding traffic_sign=maxspeed to make clear that it is a sign position. There is also an additional style for josm to display the actual sign with the correct number (currently just for kph limits), feel free to extend this for mph (eventually with the typical sign you have over there): http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Styles http://josm.openstreetmap.de/josmfile?page=Styles/MaxspeedIconszip=1 (you don't have to download it here to use it, you can activate this from inside josm via preferences, styles) cheers, Martin PS: one remark to California vehicle code 22352 This apparently stands for all kind of prima facie limits in California, IMHO you could also use something more specific like US:CA:school where US:CA would be a short form for California vehicle code 22352 and school one of the cases described in this code (context). Would also be nice to document these here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:44 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: PS: one remark to California vehicle code 22352 This apparently stands for all kind of prima facie limits in California, IMHO you could also use something more specific like US:CA:school where US:CA would be a short form for California vehicle code 22352 and school one of the cases described in this code (context). Would also be nice to document these here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed On Sep 13, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is it maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed? Also, I'd rather see an explanation than a jumbled pseudokey, aka default speed limit for unposted streets in California On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Tod Fitch tod at fitchdesign.com wrote: The jumbled pseudokey value us:ca:residential was inspired by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed used elsewhere in the world (e.g. source:maxspeed=DE:urban). But I would be happy with default speed limit for unposted streets in California, or a shorter string like California vehicle code 22352. Which will it be? The wiki page for source:maxspeed http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed#Howto_tag says: Howto tag See also: Speed limits • sign (where the speed limit is defined by a numeric sign.) • markings (where the speed limit is defined by painted road markings.) • country_code:context (where the speed limit is defined by a particular context, for example urban/rural/motorway/etc.) While neither Martin's nor Paul's suggestion exactly match the wiki, Martin's is closer. I don't have strong opinions but would like agreement between more than one other person and myself. :) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I think in previous situations where this has come up on this list and the IRC networks was that explicit tagging plus explanatory note is better than what the Germans are doing for zonal speeds. On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:44 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: PS: one remark to California vehicle code 22352 This apparently stands for all kind of prima facie limits in California, IMHO you could also use something more specific like US:CA:school where US:CA would be a short form for California vehicle code 22352 and school one of the cases described in this code (context). Would also be nice to document these here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed On Sep 13, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Is it maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed? Also, I'd rather see an explanation than a jumbled pseudokey, aka default speed limit for unposted streets in California On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Tod Fitch tod at fitchdesign.com wrote: The jumbled pseudokey value us:ca:residential was inspired by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed used elsewhere in the world (e.g. source:maxspeed=DE:urban). But I would be happy with default speed limit for unposted streets in California, or a shorter string like California vehicle code 22352. Which will it be? The wiki page for source:maxspeed http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed#Howto_tag says: Howto tag See also: Speed limits • sign (where the speed limit is defined by a numeric sign.) • markings (where the speed limit is defined by painted road markings.) • country_code:context (where the speed limit is defined by a particular context, for example urban/rural/motorway/etc.) While neither Martin's nor Paul's suggestion exactly match the wiki, Martin's is closer. I don't have strong opinions but would like agreement between more than one other person and myself. :) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: maxspeed:source=* was a thinko (kind of like a typo but different part of the body). :) OK, probably, but it does sort nicely in JOSM. Either way, feel free to fix my mistagging on this...I've used maxpseed:source=* on a few counties now and if I got the key backwards, feel free to fix. I'm not going to argue over extremely minor semantics like this. The jumbled pseudokey value us:ca:residential was inspired by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed used elsewhere in the world (e.g. source:maxspeed=DE:urban). But I would be happy with default speed limit for unposted streets in California, or a shorter string like California vehicle code 22352. I would actually rather cite the code in question, or when in doubt, the source signs. I'll personally vouch for Oklahoma zone speeds (if they're 45 or, rarely 35, for county; or 25 for pretty much all of a minor town, assuming the state road leading into it has the appropriate stepdowns.) That said, all of Oregon could be tagged as the following, in MPH, if not otherwise tagged: 3: ODOT scales 5: ODOT rest areas and scales. 10: Longer ramps in ODOT rest areas and scales. 15: Alleyways. 15-50: Variable speed zones within urban Portland. 20: School zones when flashing or children present. 25: Residential ways. 30-45: Suburban arterials 45: Expressways (trunk) unless otherwise posted (rare, there may be some inaccurate NE2 trunks existing, but I know Salem Parkway and Bend Parkway are 45s) 50: ALL urban freeways except I 405 and I 5 near central Portland (which are variable 15-50) 55: Suburban freeways, almost all rural highways. 60: I5 in Salem (IIRC) and pretty close to nowhere else. 65: Extremely rural freeway. In any rate, maxspeed in Oregon can consider ODOT ORCA a valid source under Oregon's sunshine laws (which means, to the best of my understanding, every public way in Oregon should have a maxpseed based on the above or what is in ODOT ORCA. http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/hwy/traffic-roadway/Pages/speed_zone_program.aspx Anything outside the above chart probably should specifically tag the traffic signs involved, since 100% of speed limits on public roads are controlled by ODOT. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Wait... 65: Highest posted speed limits in Oregon. 75: Highest speed authorized to ODOT for a posted speed limit (so far, unused, any paved route using a speed limit higher than 65 MPH is automatically wrong as of this writing) 88: Open desert/dune speed limit (never posted, rarely enforced) 99: Fastest speed allowed anywhere in Oregon without being potentially charged as a felony (I narrowly avoided a felony doing 117 in the Oregon Dunes when Oregon State Police by virtue of my sandrail lacking a speedo and being from out of state, despite having a GPS I was pretty much ignoring thanks to it waving around everywhere, until it was time to return it; Don't Go Faster Than This unless you want to have somewhere between a Bad Time and Prison Time). On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: maxspeed:source=* was a thinko (kind of like a typo but different part of the body). :) OK, probably, but it does sort nicely in JOSM. Either way, feel free to fix my mistagging on this...I've used maxpseed:source=* on a few counties now and if I got the key backwards, feel free to fix. I'm not going to argue over extremely minor semantics like this. The jumbled pseudokey value us:ca:residential was inspired by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed used elsewhere in the world (e.g. source:maxspeed=DE:urban). But I would be happy with default speed limit for unposted streets in California, or a shorter string like California vehicle code 22352. I would actually rather cite the code in question, or when in doubt, the source signs. I'll personally vouch for Oklahoma zone speeds (if they're 45 or, rarely 35, for county; or 25 for pretty much all of a minor town, assuming the state road leading into it has the appropriate stepdowns.) That said, all of Oregon could be tagged as the following, in MPH, if not otherwise tagged: 3: ODOT scales 5: ODOT rest areas and scales. 10: Longer ramps in ODOT rest areas and scales. 15: Alleyways. 15-50: Variable speed zones within urban Portland. 20: School zones when flashing or children present. 25: Residential ways. 30-45: Suburban arterials 45: Expressways (trunk) unless otherwise posted (rare, there may be some inaccurate NE2 trunks existing, but I know Salem Parkway and Bend Parkway are 45s) 50: ALL urban freeways except I 405 and I 5 near central Portland (which are variable 15-50) 55: Suburban freeways, almost all rural highways. 60: I5 in Salem (IIRC) and pretty close to nowhere else. 65: Extremely rural freeway. In any rate, maxspeed in Oregon can consider ODOT ORCA a valid source under Oregon's sunshine laws (which means, to the best of my understanding, every public way in Oregon should have a maxpseed based on the above or what is in ODOT ORCA. http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/hwy/traffic-roadway/Pages/speed_zone_program.aspx Anything outside the above chart probably should specifically tag the traffic signs involved, since 100% of speed limits on public roads are controlled by ODOT. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I also suggest to add source:maxspeed=sign along with maxspeed=* to ways with signposted maxspeed (especially when the sign posted speed equals the default speed, because this will keep those speedlimits in place for the case that the legislation changes and you'd want to update default speed limits). cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I agree there is a need to have a way to deal with this. Where I have checked a street, in both directions, for a posted speed limit and found none, I tag the street as maxspeed=unposted, source:maxspeed=survey. This makes it clear that the street has been checked in the field and found not to have a posted speed limit. When I lived in Florida, it was in an area where two municipalities and the unincorporated county had jurisdiction over the streets. One city defaulted to 30 mph for unposted streets. The other, supposedly, defaulted to 25 mph, although despite repeated efforts I was never able to find the ordinance or regulation that set this. The unincorporated parts of the county defaulted to the state's default, which was 30 mph. The locations of the municipal boundaries were not accurate in OSM, so I felt uncomfortable tagging a street near a boundary with source:maxspeed=City_A_default etc. So, I decided the best way to handle this was the scheme I described above. It records what's on the ground, and someone who wants to do something that needs a speed limit value can overlay an appropriate boundary or regulation or other default to fill in the values that are not clear on the ground. I face a similar situation here in Albuquerque, where I map in the city (default of 25 mph), the county (defaults to the state's 30 mph), and Los Ranchos (whose default I haven't been able to ascertain definitively--although I haven't made a big effort). The maxspeed=unposted renders as an olive drab in http://www.itoworld.com/map/5, so this makes it easy for me to see at a glance which streets I've checked and which ones I haven't. And, if the larger OSM community agrees on a standard way to tag unposted streets, this tagging makes it easy and, I hope, unambiguous about which streets need to be retagged. The only streets that remain ambiguous then are those that have not been checked (which remain untagged for maxspeed), and those that have a different speed limit in each direction, with a long-ish stretch in between, leaving it unclear where the posted speed limit actually changes (for example, Coal and Lead in downtown Albuquerque, where transitions between two-way and one-way status compound the ambiguity). In these cases I do not tag the ambiguous section for maxspeed. I guess I should mention that I'm interested in using speed limits (with other information) for bicycle routing. Ed Hillsman___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
2014-09-15 16:59 GMT+02:00 Ed Hillsman hills...@pobox.com: I agree there is a need to have a way to deal with this. Where I have checked a street, in both directions, for a posted speed limit and found none, I tag the street as maxspeed=unposted, source:maxspeed=survey. This makes it clear that the street has been checked in the field and found not to have a posted speed limit. one problem I could see with that approach is that the information density in your 2 tags is very low (the unposted value doesn't say anything about the actual speed limit and the survey-value could be seen as implicit for this kind of tag). IMHO putting an actual limit into the maxspeed key is valueable, regardless whether this is signposted or an implicit limit, because this is the speed information that most drivers on that road will be interested in (typically). Cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-09-15 16:59 GMT+02:00 Ed Hillsman hills...@pobox.com: I agree there is a need to have a way to deal with this. Where I have checked a street, in both directions, for a posted speed limit and found none, I tag the street as maxspeed=unposted, source:maxspeed=survey. This makes it clear that the street has been checked in the field and found not to have a posted speed limit. one problem I could see with that approach is that the information density in your 2 tags is very low (the unposted value doesn't say anything about the actual speed limit and the survey-value could be seen as implicit for this kind of tag). IMHO putting an actual limit into the maxspeed key is valueable, regardless whether this is signposted or an implicit limit, because this is the speed information that most drivers on that road will be interested in (typically). I may have some locational bias on this because as far as I know, Kansas does not have any default speed limits and it is fairly uncommon to see a (paved) road without a speed limit sign somewhere along it. So that being said, I'm a fan of putting a maxspeed=number tag on everything. Leaving it up to data consumers to interpret the thousands of potential local defaults around the world doesn't seem like a good argument to me. And yes, in urban areas a maxspeed tag is likely to be less useful but most of our data consumers aren't going to have a historical, indexed by time of day archive of user traces to extract realistic data from. And as far as I am aware, there is no open repository of such information. So a maxspeed tag is at least a good starting point. I don't see the data maintenance being any different from most of our other data. If it is actually used in applications (such as OsmAnd or on Garmin devices) then any errors are going to be fairly visible to users which leads to feedback and fixing of data. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sep 15, 2014, at 1:09 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: maxspeed:source=* was a thinko (kind of like a typo but different part of the body). :) OK, probably, but it does sort nicely in JOSM. Either way, feel free to fix my mistagging on this...I've used maxpseed:source=* on a few counties now and if I got the key backwards, feel free to fix. I'm not going to argue over extremely minor semantics like this. Interesting. I happened upon source:maxspeed=* and found it in the wiki so went with it and there are over 455,000 uses of that tag. But there are over 22,000 occurrences of maxspeed:source=* which is quite a high number too. Of those 9,301 are maxspeed:source=default␣residential␣speed␣limit␣in␣Australia so it looks like the use is global and that taggers outside of the US are also dealing with default or prima facie speed limits. My take on the opinions in this thread are: 1. maxspeed=* should have a speed value that is of use to a router or navigation aid. So a number (for KPH) or number with MPH suffix are greatly preferred over things like maxspeed=unposted. 2. The only real way to get a maxspeed=* value is by survey. Even if the jurisdiction has a default speed limit for the type of road, any specific road may be signed to some other speed. And, in general, you can't see signs in satellite imagery. (Exception in California and perhaps elsewhere: Occasionally the speed limit is painted on the pavement and that can be seen in satellite imagery.) 3. A source:maxspeed=* tag should accompany any maxspeed=* tag indicating the authority. Usually that will be source:maxspeed=sign. Since this tag is for human documentation purposes and probably will not have a software based data consumer values can be something agreed to by the taggers in the area. For unsigned roads things like source:maxspeed=DE:urban seems to work for German taggers, but something like source:maxspeed=California vehicle code 22352 makes it easy for anyone to do a web search and determine the criteria. source:maxspeed=survey is fairly widely used but that does not say if the maxspeed was from a sign or a jurisdictional default so I would avoid using it. 4. There are unsigned roads where the jurisdictional boundaries are unclear and the jurisdictions in question have different default speed limits. So the actual speed limit is not clear to the tagger doing the survey. (Neither is it clear for drivers on that road which can lead to issues in enforcement but that is not on topic.) In that case the maxspeed=* value is unknown and the tag should not be used as it adds no value for the intended data consumers. But we want some way to show that the road has been surveyed and the speed is really unknown on the ground not just unknown in the OSM database. I think a fixme=* tag with explanation in the issue would handle that. I've been off on other things so I haven't done more than make sure that the roads tagged with maxspeed=* that I have done in my area also have a source:maxspeed=sign. I think I am comfortable enough with this discussion thread that I will add maxspeed=25 mph and source:maxspeed=California vehicle code 22352 to the unsigned residential roads I have surveyed. Thanks for the input and discussion! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: I've been off on other things so I haven't done more than make sure that the roads tagged with maxspeed=* that I have done in my area also have a source:maxspeed=sign. I think I am comfortable enough with this discussion thread that I will add maxspeed=25 mph and source:maxspeed=California vehicle code 22352 to the unsigned residential roads I have surveyed. Woot! Woot! If you are adding a speed limit to a node where a sign is located and if you add traffic_sign=maxspeed along with your maxspeed=25 mph, then JOSM will show you a cute little sign verses a blue dot. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/147417922 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Il giorno 14/set/2014, alle ore 06:34, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org ha scritto: Is it maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed? invented as source:maxspeed and also most used cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
maxspeed:source=* was a thinko (kind of like a typo but different part of the body). :) The jumbled pseudokey value us:ca:residential was inspired by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed used elsewhere in the world (e.g. source:maxspeed=DE:urban). But I would be happy with default speed limit for unposted streets in California, or a shorter string like California vehicle code 22352. On Sep 13, 2014, at 9:34 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential roads in my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the type of things I see at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed Is it maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed? Also, I'd rather see an explanation than a jumbled pseudokey, aka default speed limit for unposted streets in California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential roads in my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the type of things I see at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed Is it maxspeed:source or source:maxspeed? Also, I'd rather see an explanation than a jumbled pseudokey, aka default speed limit for unposted streets in California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. Not as far as I'm aware. Oregon's school zones are always 20. Oklahoma's all over the place: I've seen everything from 5 to 55, though the mode seems to be 25. Residential streets also have some spread, many small towns are somewhere in the 10-20 range, with most of the big cities and larger towns going with 25. The mode, however, is 45, since the vast majority of roads are not posted, and the default speed limit in most counties, is 45 (Entering Wagoner County / County Wide Speed Limit 45 MPH unless otherwise posted) unless a more local jurisdiction overrides it (SPEED LIMIT 25 unless otherwise posted within Cleveland, SPEED LIMIT 25 on all residential streets unless otherwise posted in Bartlesville) and a lot of smaller towns just plain don't bother with more than street names and only enough stop signs to keep people from blindly running into the highway through town (except maybe a two-way yield or two, most likely where Chuck scratched up Billy's new pickup back in '98). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I should also add that in the US, it depends wildly on where you are. In Oregon, for example, all speed limits on all public roads, regardless of what government authority actually owns and operates the road, are set by the Oregon Department of Transportation, period. Yes, everything from a parking aisle in a government parking lot, to a service alley in a neighborhood up to the largest freeway, set by ODOT. On the other end of the spectrum (as far as I'm aware), you have Oklahoma, which OklaDOT has overriding authority, but delegates speed limits to local counties, who generally in turn delegate to local towns and cities, and generally don't run into problems as long as everyone's in agreement on what a reasonable speed limit for the local community and highway conditions are, particularly when it concerns state highways (since everything state highway and up OklaDOT definitely has control over, and they greatly prefer to step down the speed in 10 MPH increments to meet the local town's expectations). There's a few places where this doesn't always work out, but it's probably as likely an overlooked stolen sign than deliberate malice on local jurisdictions parts (such as entering Ramona, OK on County Road W3350 from the west, the speed limit drops from 45 to 25 with no warning from as long as I've been aware of the road to as recently as July, but there is evidence that the sign is just plain missing as there's a few empty posts heading into town on that rarely used road). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
2014-09-09 17:47 GMT+02:00 Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org: I'm of the opinion that wherever the speed limit is just the default for that road class, it should not need to be posted at all. Any data user can then infer limits. I don't know how this is handled in the US, but in Europe you will definitely need explicit speed limits because there is no road class in OSM that represents the needed properties. In Germany and Italy (and likely in many other countries as well) for instance there is a distinction between inside settlement and outside settlement. Now not all residential roads are inside a closed settlement, and not every settlement is considered a settlement for the purpose of this law. The actual limits get set by the city_limit signs, which do not correspond to actual settlement boundaries but are put where the traffic planners think you should slow down (i.e. even if we mapped places in osm in all instances as areas, this place area would not correspond to the area with urban city limit). Besides this, there is another issue: when a key in osm is missing, you will not know if it is missing (here maxspeed), you will not know if it is missing or if the default should apply. Both are IMHO strong arguments to map also default (i.e. implicit, not sign-posted) speed limits, while the dataconsumers (e.g. routers), will of course need default values for road classes, especially for the cases of missing maxspeed information. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. I was thinking more like a stop sign is red and eight sided. A traffic engineer told me that there is a federal standard governing how intersections are marked, etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote: I was thinking more like a stop sign is red and eight sided. A traffic engineer told me that there is a federal standard governing how intersections are marked, etc. You're probably thinking of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ Not quite sure how it is relevant to the max speed discussion, though. Harald. -- Please use encrypted communication whenever possible! Key-ID: 0x34cb93972f186565 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 6:35 AM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote: I was thinking more like a stop sign is red and eight sided. A traffic engineer told me that there is a federal standard governing how intersections are marked, etc. You're probably thinking of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ Not quite sure how it is relevant to the max speed discussion, though. Harald. Harald, Thanks. I could not remember the name of the manual. Although states have rights, federal $$dollars$$ and the restrictions attached can have a way overriding states rights. Gerg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Signage standards are contained in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices). These are standards, not absolute requirements, but you will find them followed pretty closely because traffic engineers don’t like having to explain why they have not complied with standards. Several states have their own version of the MUTCD, usually with either a few additions to the MUTCD or even by reducing the options of signage. Kerry Irons From: Greg Morgan [mailto:dr.kludge...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 9:22 AM To: stevea Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. I was thinking more like a stop sign is red and eight sided. A traffic engineer told me that there is a federal standard governing how intersections are marked, etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On 9/10/14 9:42 AM, Greg Morgan wrote: Thanks. I could not remember the name of the manual. Although states have rights, federal $$dollars$$ and the restrictions attached can have a way overriding states rights. actually one of the most powerful motivators behind the widespread adaption of the MUTCD is liability. if states and municipalities show they are operating in accordance with the MUTCD then they can avoid a world of hurt in court. it's why the recent addition of a number of bicycle facilities to the MUTCD is a big deal, as it makes them suddenly ok for many jurisdictions where they weren't before. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sep 10, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Richard Welty wrote: actually one of the most powerful motivators behind the widespread adaption of the MUTCD is liability. if states and municipalities show they are operating in accordance with the MUTCD then they can avoid a world of hurt in court. it's why the recent addition of a number of bicycle facilities to the MUTCD is a big deal, as it makes them suddenly ok for many jurisdictions where they weren't before. richard Back to topic: What is the feeling of those on this list about the relative merits of marking each way with maxspeed=* and source:maxspeed=US:ST:highwayclass (or some equivalent) versus tagging the administrative area(s) with the prima facie speed limits for each class? The more I think about it, tagging each way is a bit like (incorrect) tagging for the router, basically creating a maintenance headache and cluttering the OSM database with stuff the current router and navigation guidance can use without being changed. But the rule is really for a whole jurisdiction and could be covered with a handful of tags, one for each highway class on the area or relation that describes the administrative area. That would allow for cases like Burlington, Vermont having prima facie limits even if Vermont doesn't (as was mentioned earlier in this thread). And it would allow easy updates if/when that administrative unit changes its laws, only a handful of tags all on one object versus changing potentially thousands of highway objects. Thanks! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On 9/10/14 2:15 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: The more I think about it, tagging each way is a bit like (incorrect) tagging for the router, basically creating a maintenance headache and cluttering the OSM database with stuff the current router and navigation guidance can use without being changed. But the rule is really for a whole jurisdiction and could be covered with a handful of tags, one for each highway class on the area or relation that describes the administrative area. That would allow for cases like Burlington, Vermont having prima facie limits even if Vermont doesn't (as was mentioned earlier in this thread). And it would allow easy updates if/when that administrative unit changes its laws, only a handful of tags all on one object versus changing potentially thousands of highway objects. the tradeoff is added complexity for the data consumers who now have to process the boundary to determine maxspeed. secondarily, we still need to tag the ways in some manner (e.g. maxspeed=admin_default or something) so that it's clear that someone actually was paying attention, because otherwise (as i think Martin pointed out) the absence of the tag could mean two different things. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Il giorno 10/set/2014, alle ore 20:15, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com ha scritto: The more I think about it, tagging each way is a bit like (incorrect) tagging for the router, basically creating a maintenance headache and cluttering the OSM database with stuff the current router and navigation guidance can use without being changed. from my experience here, adding the maxspeed source (implicit from setting/ explicit from sign) really improves the maintenance situation. Also mapping sign positions helps a lot. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Hello Kerry and Greg: Even though I'm just a lay person in this regard, I'm rather familiar with the MUTCD (though not at the level of detail of a traffic engineer or a professional urban transportation planner). Any federal standard about stop signs being red and eight sided and intersections being marked in consistent ways happens because of a well-understood scenario, envisioned by the authors of our federal Constitution: states develop such things in an experimental way, some solutions are found to be more successful than others, and hence emerge, then other states pick up on working solutions and they implement them as well. Sometimes (as with traffic engineering, the MUTCD and Interstate Highways), formal standards bodies (like AASHTO) craft such statewide standards into something which resembles a federal standard, but in fact are more like a broad understanding: states together coming to agreement independent of the federal government. AASHTO, after all, is a non-profit of professionals, and while it is based in Washington, DC, it is not part of the federal government. I say this to underscore my original point: the distinction between what is federal (only those enumerated powers specified in the Constitution), and what is state (everything else). Much about this continues to be confused in the public mind, (a failure of good civics in our public schools?) but the basic facts of this haven't changed in over 200 years. I don't want to get overtly political, but it does seem to bear repeating in this context. Oh, and states accepting federal dollars doesn't override state's rights, states simply give away certain sovereign rights in exchange for the dollars. They don't have to, but that IS the bargain. In short, states are responsible for traffic laws. There is some overlap between state and federal which has been deliberately crafted (Interstate Highways, ICE-TEA funding, MPOs usurping local control via federal $...), but the fact of state/local control over transportation infrastructure, law and funding remains essentially true, until something explicit (e.g. acceptance of federal $) changes it. I don't know what the answers might be regarding prima facie speed limits in OSM. It doesn't seem totally incorrect to put these in, but again, I find speed limits in OSM most useful when they designate where a sign explicitly specifies what speed limits are where. Data consumers (ETA algorithms...) may or may not use such data. The better ones might pay attention to them, then use them or ignore them based upon even MORE intelligence. Yet again: conscientious attention to both structured data and code (logic) is warranted. SteveA California Signage standards are contained in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices). These are standards, not absolute requirements, but you will find them followed pretty closely because traffic engineers don't like having to explain why they have not complied with standards. Several states have their own version of the MUTCD, usually with either a few additions to the MUTCD or even by reducing the options of signage. Kerry Irons From: Greg Morgan [mailto:dr.kludge...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 9:22 AM To: stevea Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:31 AM, stevea mailto:stevea...@softworkers.comstevea...@softworkers.com wrote: The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. I was thinking more like a stop sign is red and eight sided. A traffic engineer told me that there is a federal standard governing how intersections are marked, etc.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Am Montag, 8. September 2014 schrieb Tod Fitch : How does this sound? +1 Cheers, Martin -- Martin Koppenhoefer (Dipl-Ing. Arch.) Via del Santuario Regina degli Apostoli, 18 00145 Roma |I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I| Italia N41.851, E12.4824 tel1: +39 06.916508070 tel2: +49 30 868708638 mobil: +39 392 3114712 mobil: +49 1577 7793740 m...@koppenhoefer.com http://www.koppenhoefer.com Hinweis: Diese Nachricht wurde manuell erstellt. Wir bemühen uns um fehlerfreie Korrespondenz, dennoch kann es in Ausnahmefällen vorkommen, dass bei der manuellen Übertragung von Informationen in elektronische Medien die übertragenen Informationen Fehler aufweisen. Wir bitten Sie, dies zu entschuldigen. Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of koppenhoefer.com unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@koppenhoefer.com Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On 09/08/2014 05:27 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: [...] instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential [...] My state doesn't have such a limit, but my city does. Supposing I started tagging things with source:maxspeed=US:VT:Burlington, would anyone be upset that Burlington and residential are in the same place in the hierarchy? (I'm hoping the answer here is no one cares, the value isn't intended to be machine parsable, and both values are understandable by humans.) --Andrew ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
In Europe (at least Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, UK) people started to add both source:maxspeed=country code:classification and explicit maxspeed tags. Then there is no need for an external DB to lookup the speeds. Although it means that when the speed changes, all roads have to be retagged. regards On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: California has a 25 MPH rule for school zones while Arizona has (or at least had when I lived there) a 15 MPH school zone limit. It seems that 25 MPH in a residential area is pretty standard but I think states have enough discretion in setting limits that they could vary from one state to the next. So I think the source attribution should allow for differences between states for the same class of road. Thus my suggestion for source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential for tagging in my area. On Sep 8, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Greg Morgan wrote: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. Regards, Greg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sep 9, 2014, at 6:10 AM, Andrew Guertin wrote: On 09/08/2014 05:27 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: [...] instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential [...] My state doesn't have such a limit, but my city does. Supposing I started tagging things with source:maxspeed=US:VT:Burlington, would anyone be upset that Burlington and residential are in the same place in the hierarchy? (I'm hoping the answer here is no one cares, the value isn't intended to be machine parsable, and both values are understandable by humans.) I think there are two reasons for the source:maxspeed tag: 1) So the next mapper who touches the maxspeed value knows where it came from. 2) To be able to find all the occurrences of maxspeed that were determined by the source. Something searchable but not necessarily machine parseable should be okay. On Sep 8, 2014, at 10:30 PM, Marc Gemis wrote: In Europe (at least Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, UK) people started to add both source:maxspeed=country code:classification and explicit maxspeed tags. Then there is no need for an external DB to lookup the speeds. Although it means that when the speed changes, all roads have to be retagged. As long as the source:maxspeed value is unique to the jurisdiction then it is easy to find all the roads that need to be retagged. On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:58 PM, Richard Welty wrote: the default speed limit in NYS for unposted roads is 55mph, irrespective of surface type. other states vary; there's a page in the OSM wiki about it. If I recall correctly, NYS changed their rural highways from 50 MPH to 55 MPH when the nationwide 55 MPH limit came into effect in the early 1970s. So these speeds can definitely change, though usually change is slow. I think that if the value for the source:maxspeed tag uniquely specifies the jurisdiction and is something that is readily understandable by a human then is should be okay. So US:CA:residential and US:VT:Burlington or US:VT:Burlington:residential would meet those requirements. Sounds like the responders to this thread are either unopposed or generally in favor of the concept. I think I'll start tagging this way in my local area. Thanks! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I'm of the opinion that wherever the speed limit is just the default for that road class, it should not need to be posted at all. Any data user can then infer limits. Martijn On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential roads in my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the type of things I see at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed How does this sound? Objections? Is there a better way? Thanks! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
One street here in Nashville, TN, went for several years without any speed limit signs along its three-mile length. Then, one day, it suddenly had signs every half-mile or so. I suspect that someone probably argued their way out of a speeding ticket on the grounds that there weren't any posted limits. Tennessee doesn't have any default speed limits that I am aware of, although one can always be cited for reckless driving. On September 9, 2014 10:47:24 AM CDT, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: I'm of the opinion that wherever the speed limit is just the default for that road class, it should not need to be posted at all. Any data user can then infer limits. Martijn On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential roads in my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the type of things I see at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed How does this sound? Objections? Is there a better way? Thanks! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. An exception is on federal land, such as national parks or BLM land, where specific parts of the US Code regarding speed limits DO apply. This is why you can get a speeding or parking ticket at Yosemite, but you won't deal with California to fight it or pay the fine: Yosemite is not part of California. Surrounded by it, yes. Part of it, no. My GPS (a still-tough Garmin 60 CSx) does an excellent job of calculating Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) when routing. It does so by assuming speed limits for all road segments in the current route and guesses I'll travel at those speeds. This is done without assigning a speed limit to each and every road segment, instead implementing a simple table lookup (freeway: assume 65 MPH, residential: assume 25 MPH...). This is a highly efficient solution that keeps the data light and the calculation short and simple, so it quickly produces an accurate ETA result. Though I don't find incorrect (or offensive) the suggestion of tagging prima facie limits with the tagging syntax specified, I find speed limit tagging to be most useful where there are posted signs with a specific number. That's just me, though. SteveA California___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Sep 9, 2014, at 10:31 AM, stevea wrote: I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. An exception is on federal land, such as national parks or BLM land, where specific parts of the US Code regarding speed limits DO apply. This is why you can get a speeding or parking ticket at Yosemite, but you won't deal with California to fight it or pay the fine: Yosemite is not part of California. Surrounded by it, yes. Part of it, no. My GPS (a still-tough Garmin 60 CSx) does an excellent job of calculating Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) when routing. It does so by assuming speed limits for all road segments in the current route and guesses I'll travel at those speeds. This is done without assigning a speed limit to each and every road segment, instead implementing a simple table lookup (freeway: assume 65 MPH, residential: assume 25 MPH...). This is a highly efficient solution that keeps the data light and the calculation short and simple, so it quickly produces an accurate ETA result. Though I don't find incorrect (or offensive) the suggestion of tagging prima facie limits with the tagging syntax specified, I find speed limit tagging to be most useful where there are posted signs with a specific number. That's just me, though. SteveA California The DVD map based nav system in my 10 year old car makes the same assumption about speeds based on its three classes of roads. It had wildly incorrect times until I configured it for California speeds. Now it does a reasonable job at estimating travel times on its selected route if I am in California. But typical rural speed freeway speeds vary considerably from state to state and for longer trips the times are still quite a bit off. Assumed values are not as good as actual values. (And my car nav system always tries for the slow way to the southern SF bay are apparently ignoring that CA 152 exists until I actually make the turn on to it from I-5 when it realizes that my way is both shorter and faster than the route it picked, so it has other problems.) A while back I suggested that prima facie speed limits tags be put the boundary area/relation for administrative areas. So the relation for California could specify something like prima_facie:maxspeed:motorway=65 MPH. This would be a simple to implement scheme with relatively few entries in OSM and be easy to update in the rare situation where the law changes. It could also allow for city or county rules to be specified. Routing algorithms could discover the appropriate assumed speeds for any class of road in an area buy looking at the enclosing administrative boundaries and the tags on those boundaries. But that suggestion was met with a pretty cold response by the tagging mail list. Instead a multitude of roads in Europe and elsewhere are being tagged with the prima facie speeds and having a source:maxspeed tag to explain it. My suggestion in this thread will contributed to that so I admit it is not my first choice. Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
There's a functional difference between speed limits and the actual speed driven. For ETA prediction, speed limit data is not all that useful - detailed historical and live speed profiles are. That is not data that is in OSM (or should be). The speed limits are mostly useful for alerting drivers they may be driving too fast. For a system like that to be feasible you will need comprehensive posted speed limit coverage, which OSM currently does not have. Martijn On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: On Sep 9, 2014, at 10:31 AM, stevea wrote: I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. The federal government doesn't have anything to say about speed limits (in states), as the US Constitution leaves such things to the states. An exception is on federal land, such as national parks or BLM land, where specific parts of the US Code regarding speed limits DO apply. This is why you can get a speeding or parking ticket at Yosemite, but you won't deal with California to fight it or pay the fine: Yosemite is not part of California. Surrounded by it, yes. Part of it, no. My GPS (a still-tough Garmin 60 CSx) does an excellent job of calculating Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) when routing. It does so by assuming speed limits for all road segments in the current route and guesses I'll travel at those speeds. This is done without assigning a speed limit to each and every road segment, instead implementing a simple table lookup (freeway: assume 65 MPH, residential: assume 25 MPH...). This is a highly efficient solution that keeps the data light and the calculation short and simple, so it quickly produces an accurate ETA result. Though I don't find incorrect (or offensive) the suggestion of tagging* prima facie* limits with the tagging syntax specified, I find speed limit tagging to be most useful where there are posted signs with a specific number. That's just me, though. SteveA California The DVD map based nav system in my 10 year old car makes the same assumption about speeds based on its three classes of roads. It had wildly incorrect times until I configured it for California speeds. Now it does a reasonable job at estimating travel times on its selected route if I am in California. But typical rural speed freeway speeds vary considerably from state to state and for longer trips the times are still quite a bit off. Assumed values are not as good as actual values. (And my car nav system always tries for the slow way to the southern SF bay are apparently ignoring that CA 152 exists until I actually make the turn on to it from I-5 when it realizes that my way is both shorter and faster than the route it picked, so it has other problems.) A while back I suggested that prima facie speed limits tags be put the boundary area/relation for administrative areas. So the relation for California could specify something like prima_facie:maxspeed:motorway=65 MPH. This would be a simple to implement scheme with relatively few entries in OSM and be easy to update in the rare situation where the law changes. It could also allow for city or county rules to be specified. Routing algorithms could discover the appropriate assumed speeds for any class of road in an area buy looking at the enclosing administrative boundaries and the tags on those boundaries. But that suggestion was met with a pretty cold response by the tagging mail list. Instead a multitude of roads in Europe and elsewhere are being tagged with the prima facie speeds and having a source:maxspeed tag to explain it. My suggestion in this thread will contributed to that so I admit it is not my first choice. Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Historical and live speed profiles are pretty much required for trip planning in congested urban areas, but for those of us who drive close to the speed limit and make long trips on relatively uncrowded rural freeways, travel time estimates based on posted (or prima facie) speeds are a good approximation to reality. I travel between northern California and southern Arizona a lot. The distance is about 1,300 kilometers and only a small fraction of that is congested urban freeways (especially if I decide, as I usually do, to avoid Los Angeles). OsmAnd with its knowledge of actual posted speed limits (many entered by me) does a very good job at predicting my arrival time. On Sep 9, 2014, at 11:48 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: There's a functional difference between speed limits and the actual speed driven. For ETA prediction, speed limit data is not all that useful - detailed historical and live speed profiles are. That is not data that is in OSM (or should be). The speed limits are mostly useful for alerting drivers they may be driving too fast. For a system like that to be feasible you will need comprehensive posted speed limit coverage, which OSM currently does not have. Martijn ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Agreed - that's a pretty small use case, relatively, though. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Historical and live speed profiles are pretty much required for trip planning in congested urban areas, but for those of us who drive close to the speed limit and make long trips on relatively uncrowded rural freeways, travel time estimates based on posted (or prima facie) speeds are a good approximation to reality. I travel between northern California and southern Arizona a lot. The distance is about 1,300 kilometers and only a small fraction of that is congested urban freeways (especially if I decide, as I usually do, to avoid Los Angeles). OsmAnd with its knowledge of actual posted speed limits (many entered by me) does a very good job at predicting my arrival time. On Sep 9, 2014, at 11:48 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: There's a functional difference between speed limits and the actual speed driven. For ETA prediction, speed limit data is not all that useful - detailed historical and live speed profiles are. That is not data that is in OSM (or should be). The speed limits are mostly useful for alerting drivers they may be driving too fast. For a system like that to be feasible you will need comprehensive posted speed limit coverage, which OSM currently does not have. Martijn ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Yes, a pretty small use case at somewhere around 10,000,000 trips per year on I-5 through the central valley of California. Or 9,000,000 trips per year each way on I-8 across the desert to the Arizona border. On your daily commute, you may not need help navigating so much as you want accurate real time information about which routes are moving well compared to others. For me, trip planning and using a navigation device is not for local driving (I mostly use OsmAnd for local driving to help me find errors in OSM data) as much as for getting me to places I don't go on a daily basis. You could say it is a pretty small use case as most people don't drive to or through unfamiliar places everyday, but it is probably the biggest use case for a nav system there is. Cheers, Tod On Sep 9, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: Agreed - that's a pretty small use case, relatively, though. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Historical and live speed profiles are pretty much required for trip planning in congested urban areas, but for those of us who drive close to the speed limit and make long trips on relatively uncrowded rural freeways, travel time estimates based on posted (or prima facie) speeds are a good approximation to reality. I travel between northern California and southern Arizona a lot. The distance is about 1,300 kilometers and only a small fraction of that is congested urban freeways (especially if I decide, as I usually do, to avoid Los Angeles). OsmAnd with its knowledge of actual posted speed limits (many entered by me) does a very good job at predicting my arrival time. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Thanks for clarifying, Tod. For ETA the congested urban use case is much more challenging to get right, and much more likely to rely on an dynamic ETA estimate. If you're on a multi-hour trip, you're more likely to have scoped out your travel time before you leave and planned accordingly, and if that estimate is off by perhaps 30 minutes, that's usually not the end of the world. For many phone navigation apps, the commuting use case is front and center, because the route people take to and from work will depend a lot on live traffic conditions. (Remember Waze's slogan - outsmarting traffic together, or something). So it's really navigation and ETA going hand in hand to deliver the user the optimal way to work or home. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Yes, a pretty small use case at somewhere around 10,000,000 trips per year on I-5 through the central valley of California. Or 9,000,000 trips per year each way on I-8 across the desert to the Arizona border. On your daily commute, you may not need help navigating so much as you want accurate real time information about which routes are moving well compared to others. For me, trip planning and using a navigation device is not for local driving (I mostly use OsmAnd for local driving to help me find errors in OSM data) as much as for getting me to places I don't go on a daily basis. You could say it is a pretty small use case as most people don't drive to or through unfamiliar places everyday, but it is probably the biggest use case for a nav system there is. Cheers, Tod On Sep 9, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: Agreed - that's a pretty small use case, relatively, though. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Historical and live speed profiles are pretty much required for trip planning in congested urban areas, but for those of us who drive close to the speed limit and make long trips on relatively uncrowded rural freeways, travel time estimates based on posted (or prima facie) speeds are a good approximation to reality. I travel between northern California and southern Arizona a lot. The distance is about 1,300 kilometers and only a small fraction of that is congested urban freeways (especially if I decide, as I usually do, to avoid Los Angeles). OsmAnd with its knowledge of actual posted speed limits (many entered by me) does a very good job at predicting my arrival time. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential roads in my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the type of things I see at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed How does this sound? Objections? Is there a better way? Thanks! Tod ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. Regards, Greg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
On 9/8/14 5:55 PM, Greg Morgan wrote: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com mailto:t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. i doubt it. 30 mph residential is as common as 25 mph, and in my experience it's a statute of the local municipality that imposes the limit. the default speed limit in NYS for unposted roads is 55mph, irrespective of surface type. other states vary; there's a page in the OSM wiki about it. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits
California has a 25 MPH rule for school zones while Arizona has (or at least had when I lived there) a 15 MPH school zone limit. It seems that 25 MPH in a residential area is pretty standard but I think states have enough discretion in setting limits that they could vary from one state to the next. So I think the source attribution should allow for differences between states for the same class of road. Thus my suggestion for source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential for tagging in my area. On Sep 8, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Greg Morgan wrote: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted speed limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted, instead there is a state wide prima facie limit: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm I wonder if 15 mph in a school zone and 25 mph in a residential area are some sort of federal standard? The source tag might be useful but not much different than other states. Regards, Greg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
