Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Dion Dock dion_d...@comcast.net wrote: I use mini-roundabout for turning circles with islands in the middle. What can I say, maybe I'm just lazy. It provides a bit more information than just turning circle without the work of drawing four ways. Note that based on other discussions it appears consensus is building around using a new tag, highway=turning_loop for this case. I've already adopted it and changed my previous work to reflect this. Note that it is not implemented in editors or renderings yet, that will take some time. -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
At 2012-04-10 07:29, Mike N wrote: On 4/10/2012 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. I agree, this is not a roundabout. I use turning_circle, unless there is an island in the middle, in which case I draw the circular way as used in this example. +1, unless I have a limited amount of time and a bunch of them with islands in a tract, and then I tag them as turning_circle, too. I don't think there's much difference here - it's about degrees of accuracy. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net I use mini-roundabout for turning circles with islands in the middle. What can I say, maybe I'm just lazy. It provides a bit more information than just turning circle without the work of drawing four ways. -Dion Dock ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 5/15/2012 2:23 PM, Alan Mintz wrote: At 2012-05-15 11:19, Clifford Snow wrote: I tag culs-de-sac as turning_circles and only draw a circular way when there is an island in the middle. But I have a question. Where should the turning_circle node be placed? In the middle of the culs-de-sac or where the street enters the culs-de-sac? The center of the circle, like any other node meant to represent an area. If the street is straight leading into a turning circle that's on one side of the road, I'll usually keep it straight and put the node on the edge of the circle. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman I'm making library calls to the routing code and it seems that the router does not understand cul-de-sacs mapped as a single self-intersecting way. This got me thinking about different ways to possibly map cul-de-sacs. I generally use Way with highway=residential or highway=unclassified. At the end of the road there is a loop that intersects the same Way. Here is one that I recently mapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? One other possibility that I could think of was splitting the circular part at the end and tagging it junction=roundabout. However, this would imply that the road is one-way, and I'm not sure that that is the case. Typically there is no one way sign on the ground and people feel free to travel in either direction on these (though being a cul-de-sac they don't have a lot of traffic). --Peter ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 09:46:00 AM Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman I'm making library calls to the routing code and it seems that the router does not understand cul-de-sacs mapped as a single self-intersecting way. This got me thinking about different ways to possibly map cul-de-sacs. I generally use Way with highway=residential or highway=unclassified. At the end of the road there is a loop that intersects the same Way. Here is one that I recently mapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? One other possibility that I could think of was splitting the circular part at the end and tagging it junction=roundabout. However, this would imply that the road is one-way, and I'm not sure that that is the case. Typically there is no one way sign on the ground and people feel free to travel in either direction on these (though being a cul-de-sac they don't have a lot of traffic). --Peter ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us If it really is just a cul-de-sac, I (and many others) tag them as highway=turning_circle. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 7:46 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman I'm making library calls to the routing code and it seems that the router does not understand cul-de-sacs mapped as a single self-intersecting way. This got me thinking about different ways to possibly map cul-de-sacs. I generally use Way with highway=residential or highway=unclassified. At the end of the road there is a loop that intersects the same Way. Here is one that I recently mapped: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? No, I ususally tag the end node highway=turning_circle. There are so many of them littered around US suburbia that mapping each and every one of them as a circular way would make for a lot of not too useful data, not to mention a lot of work. One other possibility that I could think of was splitting the circular part at the end and tagging it junction=roundabout. However, this would imply that the road is one-way, and I'm not sure that that is the case. Typically there is no one way sign on the ground and people feel free to travel in either direction on these (though being a cul-de-sac they don't have a lot of traffic). A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. -- Martijn van Exel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. A mini roundabout is more like a big dot in the middle of the junction, so that all rules of a roundabout are implied on that junction. Example: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/roundabouts/img/mini.jpg Whereas a normal roundabout is a more or less circular piece of road. Example: http://adamcopeland.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/roundabout-live-local.jpg generally speaking For a cul-de-sac I normally use the highway=turning_circle tag on the last node. Henk ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. I agree, this is not a roundabout. I use turning_circle, unless there is an island in the middle, in which case I draw the circular way as used in this example. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Henk Hoff toffeh...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.comwrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. A mini roundabout is more like a big dot in the middle of the junction, so that all rules of a roundabout are implied on that junction. Example: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/roundabouts/img/mini.jpg Whereas a normal roundabout is a more or less circular piece of road. Example: http://adamcopeland.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/roundabout-live-local.jpg generally speaking For a cul-de-sac I normally use the highway=turning_circle tag on the last node. There are two kinds of cul-de-sacs. This is the sort where I tag the last node of the way with highway=turning_circle: http://binged.it/IwzjHv This is the sort that I loop the road way back on itself: http://binged.it/Imk84z ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/10/2012 7:46 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? No, I ususally tag the end node highway=turning_circle. There are so many of them littered around US suburbia that mapping each and every one of them as a circular way would make for a lot of not too useful data, not to mention a lot of work. So we have 2 people in favor of discarding the circular portion of the Way and just using a node with highway=turning_circle. I actually also use this approach on roads such as this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/157338683 I distinguish between having a solid paved surface and a traffic island. This seems to make sense based on the recommendations for dual carriage ways (presence of physical separation causing separate Ways). According to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle: There is no central island/reservation to a turning circle—it's simply a wider bit of road. Are you saying that you delete these circular portions of ways and replace with a node? Peter ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 8:32 AM, Ian Dees wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Henk Hoff toffeh...@gmail.com mailto:toffeh...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com mailto:mve...@gmail.com wrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. A mini roundabout is more like a big dot in the middle of the junction, so that all rules of a roundabout are implied on that junction. Example: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/roundabouts/img/mini.jpg Whereas a normal roundabout is a more or less circular piece of road. Example: http://adamcopeland.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/roundabout-live-local.jpg generally speaking For a cul-de-sac I normally use the highway=turning_circle tag on the last node. There are two kinds of cul-de-sacs. This is the sort where I tag the last node of the way with highway=turning_circle: http://binged.it/IwzjHv This is the sort that I loop the road way back on itself: http://binged.it/Imk84z Good point, the distinction being the island in the middle. I would argue that even these may be tagged as a turning_circle though, as a roundabout implies, to me, that there is a through traffic function with more than one road connecting to it. -- Martijn van Exel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 8:39 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exelmve...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/10/2012 7:46 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? No, I ususally tag the end node highway=turning_circle. There are so many of them littered around US suburbia that mapping each and every one of them as a circular way would make for a lot of not too useful data, not to mention a lot of work. So we have 2 people in favor of discarding the circular portion of the Way and just using a node with highway=turning_circle. I actually also use this approach on roads such as this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/157338683 I distinguish between having a solid paved surface and a traffic island. This seems to make sense based on the recommendations for dual carriage ways (presence of physical separation causing separate Ways). According to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle: There is no central island/reservation to a turning circle—it's simply a wider bit of road. Are you saying that you delete these circular portions of ways and replace with a node? Peter Yes, I disagree with the strict definition (it is probably UK-biased). To me, a turning_circle is any dead end that has some form of design element that facilitates easy turning, whether there's an island or not. -- Martijn van Exel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/10/2012 7:46 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? No, I ususally tag the end node highway=turning_circle. There are so many of them littered around US suburbia that mapping each and every one of them as a circular way would make for a lot of not too useful data, not to mention a lot of work. So we have 2 people in favor of discarding the circular portion of the Way and just using a node with highway=turning_circle. I actually also use this approach on roads such as this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/157338683 I distinguish between having a solid paved surface and a traffic island. This seems to make sense based on the recommendations for dual carriage ways (presence of physical separation causing separate Ways). According to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle: There is no central island/reservation to a turning circle—it's simply a wider bit of road. Are you saying that you delete these circular portions of ways and replace with a node? No, I think we're suggesting 3 things: 1) mini_roundabouts (and regular roundabouts) have multiple exits and are at the junction of many roads. Cul-de-sacs are not mini-roundabouts. 2) When it's a wider bit of road meant to allow vehicles to turn around, then the last node of the road should be placed in the middle of the area and be tagged highway=turning_circle. 3) When the cul-de-sac has an island not meant for traffic a loop of way should go around the island and connect back on itself. Sometimes I become lazy and will put a turning_circle node in the middle of the island and break this rule. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 10:39 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle: There is no central island/reservation to a turning circle—it's simply a wider bit of road. There was a recent discussion on tagging@ in which the 'old guard' refused to accept that it may be common in some places to use turning_circle for a cul-de-sac with an island. Hence the wiki doesn't reflect reality. Another case is with a mini_roundabout - supposedly the center must be flat. But many small circles that fit inside intersections are tagged as mini_roundabouts even if they have a raised island. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 11:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Another case is with a mini_roundabout - supposedly the center must be flat. But many small circles that fit inside intersections are tagged as mini_roundabouts even if they have a raised island. The wiki actually says 'there might be also a low, fully traversable dome'. Something like the examples in Mini-Roundabout Examples: Germany (Slide 10) on http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/roundaboutsummit/rndabtatt5.htm There was, curiously enough, a roundabout summit at some point. -- Martijn van Exel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 1:53 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: On 4/10/2012 11:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Another case is with a mini_roundabout - supposedly the center must be flat. But many small circles that fit inside intersections are tagged as mini_roundabouts even if they have a raised island. The wiki actually says 'there might be also a low, fully traversable dome'. Something like the examples in Mini-Roundabout Examples: Germany (Slide 10) on http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/roundaboutsummit/rndabtatt5.htm And until recently it said that it *usually* does not have a physical island in the middle: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundaboutdiff=747981oldid=689543 I definitely consider this to be a mini_roundabout and continue to tag it as such: http://www.cityoforlando.net/transportation/TransportationEngineeringDiv/images/100_5738.JPG ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman I'm making library calls to the routing code and it seems that the router does not understand cul-de-sacs mapped as a single self-intersecting way. I can understand why, it's a little nonstandard. If it's a cul-de-sac with just a turning circle at the end with no median, I would simply put the end node in the center of the turning circle and tag it highway=turning_circle. You can see a subdivision with several of these features at http://osm.org/go/T4_w_KHs If there's an island in the middle, create a circle around the island, set one-way in the direction of rotation (almost always anticlockwise in North America), intersect with outlet way, copy outlet's tags to the ring (think one-exit roundabout minus the junction=roundabout). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: A roundabout (or mini_roundabout) implies to me (although it is not defined on the wiki) that there is more than one entry / exit road. So intuitively I'd say that is not an appropriate tag. Additionally, a mini-roundabout doesn't have a hard median, you could sail straight through the island without hitting anything. As far as I'm aware, we don't have these in the US at all. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On 4/10/2012 2:23 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: If there's an island in the middle, create a circle around the island, set one-way in the direction of rotation (almost always anticlockwise in North America), intersect with outlet way, copy outlet's tags to the ring (think one-exit roundabout minus the junction=roundabout). That's only correct if there are signs saying it's one-way. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: The wiki actually says 'there might be also a low, fully traversable dome'. My test is is it readily possible to drive over it? If yes, then mini. Otherwise, I treat it as any other median island. A theoretical North Ameircan mini roundabout would be a roundabout with no center island other than a truck apron (that raised concrete area you see on some large roundabouts to allow tractor trailers to run it over safely as they turn, usually lower than the sidewalk, higher than the road, and only for use by trailers off-tracking). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: That's only correct if there are signs saying it's one-way. That's pretty shaky considering that a dividing island (and an island in what would otherwise be a flat turning circle is still such an island) is passed on the right unless posted otherwise in the US and Canada. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] tagging cul-de-sacs
Hello all, I recently mapped a subdivision where the cul-de-sacs really were miniroundabouts rather than turning circles. Kinda cool and unique. So there are, very occasionally, times when miniroundabout is appropriate for the end of a cul-de-sac. Charlotte At 07:39 AM 4/10/2012, you wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/10/2012 7:46 AM, Peter Dobratz wrote: I'm experimenting with the Java code from Traveling Salesman http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traveling_salesman http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158307363 Is this how people generally map these things? No, I ususally tag the end node highway=turning_circle. There are so many of them littered around US suburbia that mapping each and every one of them as a circular way would make for a lot of not too useful data, not to mention a lot of work. So we have 2 people in favor of discarding the circular portion of the Way and just using a node with highway=turning_circle. I actually also use this approach on roads such as this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/157338683 I distinguish between having a solid paved surface and a traffic island. This seems to make sense based on the recommendations for dual carriage ways (presence of physical separation causing separate Ways). According to the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle: There is no central island/reservation to a turning circleit's simply a wider bit of road. Are you saying that you delete these circular portions of ways and replace with a node? Peter ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
