Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Rory McCann]

Another possible use is to compare OSM data with Cybo data on a coarse
(e.g. city/county) level to get an idea of how much is in OSM. How many
POIs are in [COUNTY] in OSM and compare that to Cybo. It could be
interesting to "rank" areas against each other, to get an idea of OSM's
completness (in USA), maybe to find some counties where there is/are
active mapper(s) who have mapped lots but don't take part in the wider
OSM community. Do you have any hidden heros? etc.

On 13/11/17 17:02, Mike N wrote:

On 11/13/2017 9:23 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
If done right, I'd hope this could be the spur to greatly improving 
OSM POI

coverage in the US.


   Another useful way to use the Cybo data if it's kept current is to be 
able to subscribe to a feed of opened or closed businesses within an area.


   As you mention they would probably need a survey to be added, but 
marking the OSM POI closed could be done without a survey, if it's 
within a review of license restrictions.


   (I frequently come across the first POIs I added, having been closed 
now for 7 years)


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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Mike N]

On 11/13/2017 9:23 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

If done right, I'd hope this could be the spur to greatly improving OSM POI
coverage in the US.


  Another useful way to use the Cybo data if it's kept current is to be 
able to subscribe to a feed of opened or closed businesses within an 
area.


  As you mention they would probably need a survey to be added, but 
marking the OSM POI closed could be done without a survey, if it's 
within a review of license restrictions.


  (I frequently come across the first POIs I added, having been closed 
now for 7 years)


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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Richard Fairhurst]

Sean Lindsey wrote:
> I do want to produce something that is useful for
> open source and OSM/its community

Let me join in the thanks for making this available.

Even though it might not be suitable for direct import into OSM (for legal
and/or community reasons), I wonder whether it might be suitable for seeding
better POI mapping in the US.

Minh Nguyen wrote the other year about POI deserts:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Minh%20Nguyen/diary/35646

If we know from your data that (to take an absolutely random example)
Potlatch, ID[1] has a bank, a convenience store, a cafe and a pharmacy, but
that none of these are mapped in OSM, this should be a prompt for mappers to
go out, find and map them, whether from direct survey or from
Mapillary/OpenStreetCam. The authors of those apps could even use this
information to 'gamify' collection of new POIs.

It would need a bit of careful thought about the legalities: my outline
understanding is that it should be ok as long as there is no direct copying
and that the data comparison is sufficiently abstracted (e.g. number of POIs
compared within a 1km square) to ensure that genuine survey/cam-mapping has
to take place. But LWG could no doubt advise further.

If done right, I'd hope this could be the spur to greatly improving OSM POI
coverage in the US.

cheers
Richard

[1] yes yes, well spotted. http://www.cityofpotlatch.org/




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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Sean Lindsey]

Thanks for all your feedback, I'm not going to advocate whether or not OSM
should use this data. I do want to produce something that is useful for
open source and OSM/its community, and I plan on taking everything I've
learned from this thread to produce something a bit better.

I'll update you all when I have something meaningful, and describe how I
tried to address some of the concerns and issues that were raised here.

As always I'd love to hear any comments on how we can improve this dataset,
make it easier to use or alleviate legal concerns. Questions are welcome as
well.

Best,


On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Rory McCann  wrote:

> Hi Sean,
>
> The problem isn't disagreement, the problem is legality. We'd need to
> look at the licences of the data you have and check that one can legally
> import them into OSM. Perhaps it might be better to start with one or
> two of the large datasets you have, and start the process there? Perhaps
> the licence issues can be worked out. First we figure out if we *can*
> import the data, then we figure out if we *should*. 🙂
>
> I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the "secondary resource". OSM doesn't
> have "layers" or things like that. I don't think mappers could be able
> to copy from it if there is copyright licencing issues. We can't copy
> from other maps/databases.
>
> On 09/11/17 23:11, Sean Lindsey wrote:
>
>> It seems that it's going to be hard to come up with a mass import
>> solution that every one can agree on. I would suggest that you take name,
>> address, phone number, website and category then try and re-geocode the
>> data, but it seems there is opposition to this method as well.
>>
>> Another approach - as a way of keeping OSM and this data separate - is
>> having this POI data be a "secondary resource" that OSM users could "opt
>> in" to adding into their mapping set, but not be inherently owned or in
>> OSM's primary data set. For example, by loading up an OSM database you
>> could be linked to us or someone who creates a derivative of our data
>> suitable for importing into OSM maps. Thereby OSM does not feel responsible
>> for this resource but it still becomes available for people to import and
>> use via us or someone else. In this case we would want to work with someone
>> in order to create an OSM import-friendly version of this data. We have a
>> ton of indicators that tell us the quality and freshness of this data and
>> potentially we can rework in into something more usable.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 1:09 AM, Rory McCann > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> On 09/11/17 07:14, Sean Lindsey wrote:
>> > Thanks for all the feedback, we have put together some blogs to help
>> > people figure out how to play with the data, to give people an idea
>> of
>> > what it is and how it was put together.
>> >
>> > https://blog.cybo.com/
>>
>> So that website says:
>>
>> OmniPlaces is formed from billions of records (literally), from
>> tens of thousands of sources (literally)
>>
>>
>> Trying to figure out the licence for tens of thousands of datasets is
>> practically impossible Licence issues are often a problem with
>> imports, and I think this could be a show-stopper for this.
>>
>> On 09/11/17 05:54, Jo wrote:
>>
>> If the addresses are in the data as well, we don't really need
>> to use
>> the lat/lon coordinates.
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily, depends where the addresses came from. If you had
>> lots of lat/longs, and geocoded the, and threw away the lat/longs
>> then you don't have a clean dataset.
>>
>> -- Rory
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> impo...@openstreetmap.org
>> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Lindsey
>> Cybo Company
>> LinkedIn 
>> 541-912-2505 
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Rory McCann]

Hi Sean,

The problem isn't disagreement, the problem is legality. We'd need to
look at the licences of the data you have and check that one can legally
import them into OSM. Perhaps it might be better to start with one or
two of the large datasets you have, and start the process there? Perhaps
the licence issues can be worked out. First we figure out if we *can*
import the data, then we figure out if we *should*. 🙂

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the "secondary resource". OSM doesn't
have "layers" or things like that. I don't think mappers could be able
to copy from it if there is copyright licencing issues. We can't copy
from other maps/databases.

On 09/11/17 23:11, Sean Lindsey wrote:
It seems that it's going to be hard to come up with a mass import 
solution that every one can agree on. I would suggest that you take 
name, address, phone number, website and category then try and 
re-geocode the data, but it seems there is opposition to this method as 
well.


Another approach - as a way of keeping OSM and this data separate - is 
having this POI data be a "secondary resource" that OSM users could "opt 
in" to adding into their mapping set, but not be inherently owned or in 
OSM's primary data set. For example, by loading up an OSM database you 
could be linked to us or someone who creates a derivative of our data 
suitable for importing into OSM maps. Thereby OSM does not feel 
responsible for this resource but it still becomes available for people 
to import and use via us or someone else. In this case we would want to 
work with someone in order to create an OSM import-friendly version of 
this data. We have a ton of indicators that tell us the quality and 
freshness of this data and potentially we can rework in into something 
more usable.


Thoughts?

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 1:09 AM, Rory McCann > wrote:


Hi Sean,

On 09/11/17 07:14, Sean Lindsey wrote:
> Thanks for all the feedback, we have put together some blogs to help
> people figure out how to play with the data, to give people an idea of
> what it is and how it was put together.
>
> https://blog.cybo.com/

So that website says:

OmniPlaces is formed from billions of records (literally), from
tens of thousands of sources (literally)


Trying to figure out the licence for tens of thousands of datasets is
practically impossible Licence issues are often a problem with
imports, and I think this could be a show-stopper for this.

On 09/11/17 05:54, Jo wrote:

If the addresses are in the data as well, we don't really need
to use
the lat/lon coordinates.


Not necessarily, depends where the addresses came from. If you had
lots of lat/longs, and geocoded the, and threw away the lat/longs
then you don't have a clean dataset.

-- 
Rory




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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Sean Lindsey]

Hello,

Sorry there are two threads going on here. The terms on the general site
are not for the data on the OmniPlaces page and the bit about Google refers
to the usage of Google services on the website itself, ie. we embed Google
maps. We should probably clarify this.

Our blog, blog.cybo.com/ , talks about how you may be able to use the data,
addressing issues of freshness and quality.

My guess is that OSM isn't going integrate the data (at least directly),
but we are working on addressing what we can so it is as open source
compatible as possible.

BTW, I think there may be an indicator for whether or not the business was
crowd sourced, we also have have a few listing management companies that
submit to our site as well. I'll double check this b/c it would be nice to
have if it isn't already there.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> FWIW, I checked the positional accuracy for a few of the Cybo POIs in my
> town of Homer, Alaska and some of them were close to reality and some not.
> Any use of this data in my area will require extensive ground checking.
>
> This concern may turn out to be academic because in looking through the
> data the name Google pops up everywhere, as others have noted. I'll wait to
> see how the licensing considerations go before doing anything else with it.
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Michael Patrick 
> wrote:
>
>> The Cybo "Terms of Use" page at https://yellowpages.cybo.com/terms/ 
>> specifically
>> mentions Google ...
>>
>> "This information is not to be reused for public display." and "We use
>> various Google services or API's (e.g. Google Maps API). By using our
>> services you are bound by Google's Terms of Service
>> ."
>>
>> Google itself is an aggregator, and licenses it's data from many, many
>> providers. Which is why their ToCs are very restrictive. But even some of
>> the 'Open Source' friends on https://yellowpages.cybo.com/friends/
>> providing spatial data are problematical - I seem to recall a discussion of
>> compatibility between OdbL and the Creative Commons flavors and Wikipedia.
>>
>> Probably easier to ask what portion of the Cybo data is contributed by
>> individuals, and under what terms.
>>
>> Michael Patrick
>>
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>
>
> --
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> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Dave Swarthout]

FWIW, I checked the positional accuracy for a few of the Cybo POIs in my
town of Homer, Alaska and some of them were close to reality and some not.
Any use of this data in my area will require extensive ground checking.

This concern may turn out to be academic because in looking through the
data the name Google pops up everywhere, as others have noted. I'll wait to
see how the licensing considerations go before doing anything else with it.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Michael Patrick  wrote:

> The Cybo "Terms of Use" page at https://yellowpages.cybo.com/terms/ 
> specifically
> mentions Google ...
>
> "This information is not to be reused for public display." and "We use
> various Google services or API's (e.g. Google Maps API). By using our
> services you are bound by Google's Terms of Service
> ."
>
> Google itself is an aggregator, and licenses it's data from many, many
> providers. Which is why their ToCs are very restrictive. But even some of
> the 'Open Source' friends on https://yellowpages.cybo.com/friends/
> providing spatial data are problematical - I seem to recall a discussion of
> compatibility between OdbL and the Creative Commons flavors and Wikipedia.
>
> Probably easier to ask what portion of the Cybo data is contributed by
> individuals, and under what terms.
>
> Michael Patrick
>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 09.11.2017 02:53, Brian May wrote:
> Its critical to know where the lat/longs came from. For example, if they
> came from Google Maps - then its a no go, because Google's licensing is
> incompatible with OSM. Their geocodes are not public domain, etc. Same
> thing applies to many / most other commercial geocoding services. If you
> don't know how the lat/longs were derived, then that is probably a show
> stopper as well.

I've enterered a random sample of addresses from this data set into
Google for geocoding and ended up with the exact same lat/lon in about
half of cases - but I only tested a handful.

Of course it is totally possible that a public domain geocoding source
is used by both Cybo and Google which would lead to both having the same
data without Cybo having copied from Google.

As a further explanation to Sean, in case you're not familiar with the
legal situation; while deriving "facts" from Google's database and
re-using them in your own data set will often not violate copyright
(because "facts are free"), it can violate database protection which is
a different legal concept that protects a database from repeated
extraction even if the individual extracted bits are not copyrighted.
This concept doesn't exist in the US to my knowledge, but someone using
such a database in, for example, the EU, could be sued by the database
owner. That's why OSM must avoid adding location data that has been
derived from non-free sources.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Brian May]

Its critical to know where the lat/longs came from. For example, if they 
came from Google Maps - then its a no go, because Google's licensing is 
incompatible with OSM. Their geocodes are not public domain, etc. Same 
thing applies to many / most other commercial geocoding services. If you 
don't know how the lat/longs were derived, then that is probably a show 
stopper as well.


Brian

On 11/8/2017 1:53 PM, Sean Lindsey wrote:


We have open sourced our US POI data, it may not be ready for a direct 
import into OSM, but we'd be willing to try to get it there.


Its a national directory of 59 million US businesses, that has been 
updated as of this summer. And should be getting another refresh shortly.


What process is there to discuss and work to integrate this data?

The data is available under a creative commons attribution license at 
https://omniplaces.cybo.com/


I would be willing to waive and/or clarify certain aspects of the 
licence if needed however.


* I asked this same question in help.openstreetmap.org 
, 
and was referred to these mailing lists


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Re: [Talk-us] Integrating our open source data into OSM

[Max Erickson]

Hi-

It would be useful if you would describe how the data has been
collected and what other databases it may include information from.

OSM takes a fairly cautious approach to data rights, so it is a
necessary step to any import to clarify where the data has come from.


Max

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