Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Thomas Colson wrote: > The intent is to convey what mode of travel is appropriate or “authorized” > for each of 100+ campsites. Many are hiker-only, easily solved by > “horse=no”, some are horse and hiker, a very few are hiker, horse, and > boat-accessible, and a very very few are only reachable by boat: There are > no trails, official or otherwise, leading to the boat-only sites (one being > on an island). Given the steepness of the terrain and density of > understory, attempting to reach one of these sites generally results in a > bad ending (tag….helicopter_rescue=yes). However, NONE of the sites are > banned from hiker-access. Just that we want to clearly identify and label > the “only way you can get here is a boat”. So far I’m using “boat=yes”, to > keep it simple. As someone else posted, lack of a way/route leading to the > site would suggest a boat as a means of getting there. In practice, there > is mapped a short trail from the lake shore to the actual site. > I'd say this is exactly what tag...note= is for. Or perhaps tag...description= if you believe that note= is for other mappers, and description= is for mere map users (muggles). 98% of national park visitor will take the lack of a mapped trail as the proper clue. The other 2% you can't reason with anyway, as they are wearing Go Pro Cameras and have climbing and/or rocketry gear. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
The intent is to convey what mode of travel is appropriate or "authorized" for each of 100+ campsites. Many are hiker-only, easily solved by "horse=no", some are horse and hiker, a very few are hiker, horse, and boat-accessible, and a very very few are only reachable by boat: There are no trails, official or otherwise, leading to the boat-only sites (one being on an island). Given the steepness of the terrain and density of understory, attempting to reach one of these sites generally results in a bad ending (tag..helicopter_rescue=yes). However, NONE of the sites are banned from hiker-access. Just that we want to clearly identify and label the "only way you can get here is a boat". So far I'm using "boat=yes", to keep it simple. As someone else posted, lack of a way/route leading to the site would suggest a boat as a means of getting there. In practice, there is mapped a short trail from the lake shore to the actual site. The color-coding on the official park map perhaps conveys this better http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/GSMNP-Map_OCT2012.pdf We have not considered a tagging scenario that suggests people can put their horse in a boat... From: Mike Thompson [mailto:miketh...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 12:44 PM Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: the only established tags for areas I am aware of are natural=scrub and natural=wetland with sub tags (swamp, etc.), maybe this can be further refined if required (density), or we can come up with new tags for stuff like quicksand. Suitable keys might be "natural" (for geographic features), landcover, landuse and maybe more. First of all you should tell us what it is that makes the area difficult for foot travel. ;-) That might work. Thomas, can you provide us details as to what makes it difficult or dangerous to travel by foot to the camp in question? Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer < dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > the only established tags for areas I am aware of are natural=scrub and > natural=wetland with sub tags (swamp, etc.), maybe this can be further > refined if required (density), or we can come up with new tags for stuff > like quicksand. Suitable keys might be "natural" (for geographic features), > landcover, landuse and maybe more. First of all you should tell us what it > is that makes the area difficult for foot travel. ;-) > That might work. Thomas, can you provide us details as to what makes it difficult or dangerous to travel by foot to the camp in question? Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
2013/7/26 Mike Thompson > If we want to make the map explicit as to the difficulty of foot travel, > then we should have a tag that can be applied to an area indicating this. > Perhaps it isn't sac_scale, but we should have something. the only established tags for areas I am aware of are natural=scrub and natural=wetland with sub tags (swamp, etc.), maybe this can be further refined if required (density), or we can come up with new tags for stuff like quicksand. Suitable keys might be "natural" (for geographic features), landcover, landuse and maybe more. First of all you should tell us what it is that makes the area difficult for foot travel. ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
> IMHO it isn't an attribute of the campsite but an attribute of the areas in front of it. agree (if by areas in front you mean the non water areas) > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer < dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I haven't seen sac_scale used on an area, but it seems reasonable > -1, it is clearly thought and defined for (osm-)highways and not for an area. There are usually several possibilities where to cross an area, especially if you include difficult climbing, so I suggest to either not map any way from land to go there (and maybe put a note on the campsite for other mappers to indicate that it isn't simply not yet mapped), or if there is a climbing route(s) map these routes and add suitable tags to them Fair enough. However, as a map user, my assumption would be that an open space on the map in a National Park, without any highway=* ways, and without any land cover type tags (or natural=cliff, barrier=*, etc) would be that I *might* be able to traverse that area on foot with only moderate difficulty and little danger. If we want to make the map explicit as to the difficulty of foot travel, then we should have a tag that can be applied to an area indicating this. Perhaps it isn't sac_scale, but we should have something. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
2013/7/26 Tod Fitch > While I can't point to an example, I believe I've seen some state park > campsites that actually have a legal restriction against being accessed by > land. It might be that the terrain is considered too dangerous (park does > not want to assume liability for injuries), too ecologically sensitive or > requires traversing private property. In those cases it does seem to me > that access=water_only (or some equivalent) really does fit. > Also in these cases I won't tag it like this on the campsite. access=water_only isn't really understandable: only water can access?? If there are restrictions on the areas in front of the campsite (or any other feature), simply map those restrictions (boundary=protected_area, etc., access=no, ...) to where they apply. IMHO it isn't an attribute of the campsite but an attribute of the areas in front of it. If you want to be explicit for visitors of the campsite (like a description in a leaflet from the campsite probably would), add a free text like "note" (for other mappers) or "description" (for data consumers) to the campsite with an explanation. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
While I can't point to an example, I believe I've seen some state park campsites that actually have a legal restriction against being accessed by land. It might be that the terrain is considered too dangerous (park does not want to assume liability for injuries), too ecologically sensitive or requires traversing private property. In those cases it does seem to me that access=water_only (or some equivalent) really does fit. I haven't seen anything in this thread that indicates that this is the case in the original question but I don't see how one could rule out the use of an access tag altogether in all situations. -Tod On Jul 26, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Martin Koppenhöfer wrote: > > > Am 26.07.2013 um 14:17 schrieb Mike Thompson : > >> I haven't seen sac_scale used on an area, but it seems reasonable > > > -1, it is clearly thought and defined for (osm-)highways and not for an area. > There are usually several possibilities where to cross an area, especially if > you include difficult climbing, so I suggest to either not map any way from > land to go there (and maybe put a note on the campsite for other mappers to > indicate that it isn't simply not yet mapped), or if there is a climbing > route(s) map these routes and add suitable tags to them. > > Cheers, > Martin > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
Am 26.07.2013 um 14:17 schrieb Mike Thompson : > I haven't seen sac_scale used on an area, but it seems reasonable -1, it is clearly thought and defined for (osm-)highways and not for an area. There are usually several possibilities where to cross an area, especially if you include difficult climbing, so I suggest to either not map any way from land to go there (and maybe put a note on the campsite for other mappers to indicate that it isn't simply not yet mapped), or if there is a climbing route(s) map these routes and add suitable tags to them. Cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
>Yes. If a campsite is on a lake shore, or an island, and the only way to get there is by boat, I don’t see how sac_scale depicts that information If the campsite is on an island, then I feel that no additional tagging is necessary. If it is on shore, and the land around it is too dangerous, that is where you might use a tag for that *land* to indicate that. I haven't seen sac_scale used on an area, but it seems reasonable. For example, if one must climb down a steep cliff to get to the camp from land, sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking. Again, we need to know more about the nature of the danger. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
True, but the thread has not identified that it is indeed on an island. If it is boat-only for that reason, then of course. If it is at a place where you could walk there legally, but that the conditions make it very dangerous to get there, then why not? From: Thomas Colson To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? Yes. If a campsite is on a lake shore, or an island, and the only way to get there is by boat, I don’t see how sac_scale depicts that information. From:Mark Newnham [mailto:m...@newnhams.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:46 AM To: Open Street Map Talk-US Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? Is there something about sac_scale=* that doesn't work here? From:Mike Thompson To: Thomas Colson Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? > By foot, impossible and serious injury if attempted. What is the specific thing that makes it dangerous? A cliff? swamp? dense undergrowth? Perhaps a landuse tag or natural=cliff would be appropriate? Agree with Richard that access= is about legal restrictions not about danger or practicality. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
Yes. If a campsite is on a lake shore, or an island, and the only way to get there is by boat, I don't see how sac_scale depicts that information. From: Mark Newnham [mailto:m...@newnhams.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:46 AM To: Open Street Map Talk-US Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? Is there something about sac_scale=* that doesn't work here? _ From: Mike Thompson To: Thomas Colson Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? > By foot, impossible and serious injury if attempted. What is the specific thing that makes it dangerous? A cliff? swamp? dense undergrowth? Perhaps a landuse tag or natural=cliff would be appropriate? Agree with Richard that access= is about legal restrictions not about danger or practicality. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
Is there something about sac_scale=* that doesn't work here? From: Mike Thompson To: Thomas Colson Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? > By foot, impossible and serious injury if attempted. What is the specific thing that makes it dangerous? A cliff? swamp? dense undergrowth? Perhaps a landuse tag or natural=cliff would be appropriate? Agree with Richard that access= is about legal restrictions not about danger or practicality. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
> By foot, impossible and serious injury if attempted. What is the specific thing that makes it dangerous? A cliff? swamp? dense undergrowth? Perhaps a landuse tag or natural=cliff would be appropriate? Agree with Richard that access= is about legal restrictions not about danger or practicality. Mike ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
Thomas Colson writes: > I'm tagging some camp sites as "boat=yes" to imply water access only, but I > don't think this is right. Is there a water-only access tag? Two issues: access for a campsite is about the right to be there. it's not about how you can get there. what you're really saying is not a property of the campsite, but that traveling over land to get there is prohibited or inadvisable, and that travling over water is acceptable and a good idea. So it's almost like there shoudl be something like a ferry route on the water, except that it isn't a ferry and showing how people often travel in a mode that doesn't have constraints is frowned upon. And it may be tricky where the overland path is not a good idea but is covered by the "you can go anywhere that isn't prohibited" rule. pgpZtowFkHIge.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
By foot, impossible and serious injury if attempted. -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:08 PM To: Thomas Colson Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag? On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Thomas Colson wrote: > I'm tagging some camp sites as "boat=yes" to imply water access only, > but I don't think this is right. Is there a water-only access tag? What information are you trying to record? access= generally informs of a legal restriction. In your case, is access by foot prohibited, or simply unwise / unlikely / less convenient? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Thomas Colson wrote: > I’m tagging some camp sites as “boat=yes” to imply water access only, but I > don’t think this is right. Is there a water-only access tag? What information are you trying to record? access= generally informs of a legal restriction. In your case, is access by foot prohibited, or simply unwise / unlikely / less convenient? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] access restriction, water only: How to tag?
Access=no, boat=yes? On Jun 25, 2013 6:01 PM, "Thomas Colson" wrote: > I’m tagging some camp sites as “boat=yes” to imply water access only, but > I don’t think this is right. Is there a water-only access tag? > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
