Re: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Thank you to those who responded to my post of DJ questions. All interesting and thoughtful replies that will take me time to digest. Particularly thanks for the Nuevo suggestions and for the pointers on Fresedo. So much music to listen to and so little time! Victor Bennetts ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] some DJ questions (previously Melina?s_DJing_Primer)
Hi list, I have not looked at tango-l for months due to a new job keeping me incredibly busy and just glanced at it this morning to see a thread on djing. Great synchronicity as I am doing my first djing these days! So a few questions that I have been mulling over: 1. Many tandas have a stand out track like a Café Dominguez(D'Agostino), El Recodo(Biagi), El Adios(Donato) etc. At first I always put these tracks as the last in a tanda, but in dancing to them (and listening to the tandas in the car :-)) I decided that is actually a bit too predictable. I observed that actually I get better results when I put the tracks first or at least mix the strong tracks so they are first sometimes and last other times. In recent weeks I decided that actually it is best to treat the two adjacent tango tandas as related (VTTMTT) and keep a consistent mood across them. So now I have eight tracks to play around with. I can make the first track of the first tanda and the last track of the last tanda in the pair the stand out tracks. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or different approaches? 2. Since I have started collecting music for djing I have been listening to a lot of different orchestras. Some I really love and just seem to grow in stature each time I listen to them. My favorites right now are Donato, Calo and OTV. Some I just can't bring myself to play at all like Fresedo, Firpo, Piazzolla, Basso, Sassone. Apart from these I also have put together tandas from Biagi, Canaro, D'agostino, D'arienzo, Demare, Di Sarli, Laurenz, Lomuto, Pugliese ;-), Rodriguez, Tanturi and Triolo (hereafter 'the usual suspects'). Is there anyone else I should be collecting? 3. Where do I find good Nuevo (i.e. Neo/Alternative/Electronica)? I apply a simple test to all the music of 'would I like to dance to it' and I can't say much Nuevo/Alternative passes that test. I don’t really buy dancing to non tango music generally because even if I really like a track, when I go to dance tango to it I generally find it is either paced wrongly or the beat is too repetitive so dancing is boring. So my Nuevo tandas consist of Otros Aires, a couple of the Gotan tracks, and a couple of the Bajofondo Tango Club tracks. I also have a tanda of 'To Tango Tis Nefelis', 'Pa'l Que Se Va', 'Milonguero del Ayer' and 'Toca Tango' that goes down well. I have trawled various sites and listened to neo tango, but without liking too much. Any suggestions on sources for alternative music or specific tracks? 4. Milonga tandas, should they be three tracks or four? I started out playing four tracks but does not seem to go down so well as three tracks. I am sure these questions have been asked and answered many times before so I will go trawling in due course but welcome any fresh perspective anyone can give me. I have lots of other questions, but these will do for a start. Victor Bennetts >- Yes: Pugliese was much "hipper" then, as he is now. Today, I would >not rank him so high, Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] BsAs glow (previously bad, wrong, Nuevo)
I was just making the point that no one can magically be infused by tango overnight or by 'osmosis', or 'naturally' whether in BsAs or elsewhere. As my football coach used to say - sweat on the practice field equals goals in the game. Pity I never listened to him, otherwise I might be playing in the italian league ;-). Victor Bennetts >>>Floyd Baker wrote: >> >> Victor. >> >> I don't understand why a follower has to go through a lot of hard work >> and practice to be a good follower. >> >> To me all they need is an understanding of what Tango is about. The >> rest should come naturally. >>> >>...with lots of practice and hard work ;). > >What tango is about is communication (because it's an improvised dance). >We haven't been taught how to communicate with body and frame in our >everyday lives, so we need practice to perfect the technique, just as >we needed practice to learn how to crawl, walk, run and talk. >-- >>Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Floyd Baker wrote: >But that's the part I don't understand. Why aren't we able to >communicate with body and frame in an improvised way. They did when >they developed it. And from what I've read, etc., the men who did >that weren't especially 'sensitive' ... >It seems to me we tend to mechanize Tango here in the U.S. >Perhaps it's why the 'glow' fades soon after followers return from >Bs.As.? Not enough air nor fuel to keep the ember burning? Perhaps >the glow does show that it can indeed come 'naturally'.., when encouraged. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] bad nuevo
I would have to agree with Aron, although I am insanely jealous of anyone who has had lessons with Montes! When I first saw the way Arce and Montes dance I thought they are really inventive and don't dance like anyone else. I still think that, but since I have seen the way some young non professional Argentineans dance at Viruta, Villa Malcom, Practica X and I am sure other similar places, I can see they are just the best exponents of something organic, strong and unmistakably new tango. However I am sure that every one of these dancers is also a complete master of the old dance, and would probably be perfectly at home dancing in the old style somewhere like El Beso, which is probably where some dancers outside of BsAs may fall down... Personally I am perfectly happy just dancing the old dance, itself an enormous challenge and more than enough to fill a lifetime, but as others have pointed out, a lot of the nuevo introduced by people like Naviera and Chicho is now part of the 'old' dance, so probably this process will just continue. Some stuff will work great in the social context and other stuff will be for stage use only. Thank God for that, it would be pretty boring otherwise. Incidentally, for youtube junkies, check out my current favourite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmNhQpex8M Naviera and Anne at practica x dancing to Viejo porton. I presume that is the correct link, but apologise if not as no youtube at work :-(. Now that is what I call good nuevo. Victor Bennetts >Nevertheless, if you take the time to check La Viruta on a weekend >evening, you'll see that "nuevo" dancers are quite proficient in >navigating on 0.8 sqm... >Cheers, >Aron CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] BsAs glow (previously bad, wrong, Nuevo)
Hmmm, so here we have another gap between the way someone perceives himself and what others would say is reality ;-). I would certainly agree however that whatever the changes in technique that are achievable in a trip to BsAs, a first trip there teaches you humility. And probably the taller you stand, in a tango sense, the further the horizon you can see and the more your sense of the vast unmapped country in front of you. I guess that won't improve on a second or third or subsequent visit, it may even get worse :-(. So much for the glow! Victor Bennetts >As for perceptions, I had one breathless local female swooning over my >"fresh from BA" dancing after my first trip. Only problem was - I was a >crap dancer before that trip - and an even more crap dancer when I >returned, struggling with as-yet-undigested changes which would perhaps, >one day, change the many faults I still had. (Alright then - still >have. Dammit.) >cheers >rde > CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] BsAs glow (previously bad, wrong, Nuevo)
Is it tango osmosis or tango radioactivity? Either way it is a common phenomenon. Someone goes away for a few weeks to BsAs and when they get back everyone wants to dance with them and see how they have changed. They have been exposed to tango plutonium over in BsAs and are basking in the 'BsAs glow'. I wonder how real people's perceptions of each other can be in this situation and to what extent they are influenced by circumstance, accident and projected expectations. For instance, compare the way people say their dance has changed when they first get back from BsAs with the way others perceive it and there is often a mismatch. Also you might have a fabulous dance with someone the first day back only to have a terrible dance a week later, or visa versa. IMHO, there is only so much that you can change in your technique while you are away, no matter how many lessons you take. Most people would be trying to jam in as much social dancing as they can manage, and in that context breaking and remaking your technique would be pretty much impossible. Your navigation may improve a bit if you are a leader and you might have a slightly better appreciation for a wider range of styles as a follower, but your basic technique is not going to have changed too much. Much more telling in my view is the lasting impression left a few months later which has nothing to do with osmosis and everything to do with practice and hard work. In our local community there are a few followers here who have just gone ahead in amazing strides in the last three to six months and the only radioactive material they have been exposed to is, I am sure, their own hard work. One day you take them in the embrace, take a few steps and you start to wonder if they are the same person and say - wow that was as good as anything I experienced in BsAs. Victor Bennetts TFH>Osmosis: I love being one of the first leaders to >dance with a woman when she has come back from BsAs. >She has a much improved connection. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] women as leader
There will always be a special dynamic between the male/leader and female/follower that is central to tango. I think this has been discussed previously and I think Sergio did a great post on the respective roles in the dance and how the follow is basically feminine and the lead is masculine, but I don't want to open up that can of worms again. That relationship between man and woman in the dance is special because it is in the same category as a man holding a door open for a woman or giving up his seat on a bus for a woman, a beautiful and gracious gesture from a different, arguably more civilised age. But there were also a lot of other negative aspects to women's role in society at that time, which happily we don't need to replicate to enjoy tango today. Given the way tango is taught now there is no reason why women should not become competent leaders and in my experience there are many very good women leaders. In fact, in many cases, women who lead can actually look better on the floor than the majority of male leaders dancing. They are often going to be more in touch with what feels nice for a follower and not be sidetracked by all the other distractions that we poor simple men have, like a mistaken belief that women love overly complex showy dances jam packed full of difficult steps. The female leaders in BsAs are just amazing and people like Susana Miller, Cecilia Gonzales, Elina Rodin, Gabriella Elias, for instance, can lead as well as any man anywhere in the world based on what I have seen. I for one am quite happy that there are plenty of competent female leaders around. I really like it when female teachers lead me as they can then give me some practical feedback about the subtle things that are not so apparent outside the embrace that make a big difference to the experience of the follower. It is also very nice at a milonga to see a woman leading well, even better if they are leading an experienced leader! Victor Bennetts Keith> but not many women have the masculine qualities necessary to play the role of the >man and, without those qualities, IMHO, any Tango you dance as man will just be a >parody of Tango. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bridge to the Tango
Instructional videos are a bit of a fraught issue. When my wife and I were in BsAs last year, Aurora Lubiz recommended that we buy the 'Tango Baile Nuestro' documentary for the scenes of 70s milonga dancing in that movie. I asked for it in every tango shop that I went into but no one had it. Being Argentinean however they never admit that they don't have something, but always bring out something else which they try and sell you instead (how I love the people there!). In most cases it was instructional videos and I remember at Tango Brujo the sales assistant, a very attractive young portena dancer, brought out a 'learn tango in 12 lessons' by Copes. As soon as she said the title however a smile spread across her face and she said something like 'yes tango is very easy if you can learn it in 12 lessons'. We both burst out laughing. Anyway, I found the below videos with Fabian Salas and Cecilia Gonzales useful, at least for relative beginners and I am sure they are readily avai! lable which is a plus: http://www.cosmotango.com/TDvideos.htm Victor Bennetts >The only tango instructional DVDs I recommend are >Un Tal Gavito >There are 3 in the series. Well worth getting. >I'm sure everyone out there has their own favorite. >Cherie CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What is tango
Well done Sergio, you hit the nail on the head. And it looks like you don't have to have any special appreciation of music to recognise tango. This just in from my wife: 'a couple of nights ago the kids were watching a cartoon and a stylised tango came on and the characters were having a romantic moment and our son said to me "look mummy they are playing a tango" - it was pretty amazing to me that he recognised it because it was not one that we play!' Believe me, my son would far rather play football and cricket then listen to tango, he is constantly trying to grab my i-pod in the car and change from the tango to the rock playlist ;-). Victor Bennetts >Sergio, >I like your analysis of how we recognize a tango. >Here's a story. I once knew a little girl, named Lily. She and her mother >spent a lot of time at my house when I was first learning tango. She was >about three years old. One morning, a classical music program aired some >music by Piazzolla, Lily looked up in surprise and said "Mommy, listen. >They're playing a tango." CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What's the trick??
Yeah, it is really helpful to be telling someone five months out to tackle *back* sacadas in their socks. No wonder there are so many bad dancers out there. Whether sacadas are easy or not comes down to the competencies and aptitude of a given dancer, but trying to explain how to do them in a post on the internet is completely useless in my opinion. Would ballet teachers and dancers try and explain how to do a pirouette in a discussion list post? They would just laugh at anyone suggesting that was possible. Sacadas are physical not intellectual and posting the 'secret' is in the same category of the 'learn tango in 12 lessons' videos and slimming tea. Victor Bennetts jay>I disagree that sacadas are all that difficult. Here are some key things: ... >* If you experiment with back sacadas, take your shoes off and just wear socks >until you get it down. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What's the trick??
Mario, Turns and sacadas are not simple moves. I don't think it is a good idea to even attempt sacadas in turns unless you can do them in straight walking already. They are a really good example of why you can't learn tango by just looking at youtube clips or even primarily from you tube. You are also never going to pick them up just from social dancing in my opinion. To learn how to do them you definitely need a good teacher who will give you the basic technique. Preferably a number of teachers who will show you different ways of doing them, because as with any dancers teachers have their strengths and weaknesses. Typically you will then play around with the dynamics in practica a bit and find a whole lot of other ways you can do them then probably settle down to one approach and timing that you are comfortable with and suits your dance. Just when you get comfortable with that approach it will be time to break it all apart again and try it all from a different perspective ;-). As to when to put them in, once you know them and are familiar with the music it will all just happen naturally and be obvious. I guess what I am trying to say is that for sacadas and for any tango step there is no single 'trick'. I could say something like - step towards the trailing leg and forget about the leg you are trying to 'bump' as you have put it, but that may be really misleading in your specific case. At five months I would just be concentrating on walking and ochos. There is already a world of possibilities right there. For instance, how seamlessly can you change from parallel to cross system and back again? Can you walk outside on both sides and back in again in cross and parallel system? Can you lead back ochos so you are moving backward - or in a circle? Can you lead forward ochos so you are walking forward? Can you cortado your back and forward ochos? All of that will help you build up an awareness of your own and your partner's axis that are the foundation for the other stuff you will want to do later and believe me you will still be working on those basics at four years and I think ten and twenty years. Hope that helps. Victor Bennetts > So far, I've noticed (Youtube) that the Sacada I want, happens when the couple > is turning to their open side. And somehow the follow's left leg is set up > for a quick > move of the leader's right leg (bumping it). How did he set it up? How did > he know that > NOW is the time to do it?? >With the single axis Giro, It looks like the lead steps in close to the left leg > of the follow with his right leg and they spin around on that single axis. > How did he set it up? CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No dancing before the music
Janis, I can see your point, but few of us have the luxury of being more than occasional visitors to BsAs. We are all, I am sure, intimately concerned with growing tango as a dance around the world and in our own local communities, because if tango dies, our opportunity to do what we love dies with it. Even relatively strong communities with an apparently good depth of dancers can't rest on their laurels. Every time a good dancer has the bad luck (;-)) to have a relationship with a non dancer they realistically may (and usually do) drop out, for instance. Ah the followers I remember who no longer dance... but I digress. Fostering beginners along and building a community is no easy exercise. So some tolerance and attempt to appeal to a wide audience is a necessity, but hopefully in the context of teachers and organisers who have good tango sensibilities. Perhaps the new Sandra Bullock 'Sex and Tango' movie will bring in a legion of new fans? ;-) Victor Bennetts Janis >Grow tango? What do you mean by that? CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No dancing before the music
This thread seems to have evolved into a discussion on dancing tango to non tango music, so here goes. Tango music has been written and beautifully arranged and performed specifically with tango dancers in mind. Lets take Biagi's Quejas De Bandoneon. First you have the keyboard chomping rhythms, so suggestive of strong walking, boleos, sacadas, cortadas. Then the violin kicks in and you have beautiful ochos, gentle turns, long pauses, small volcadas. And so it goes with amazing textures, contrasts, pauses, right up until that final rolling piano brings on fast turns, tiny americanas, linear grapevines etc etc. Just thinking about this is making me want to go and find my wife and change my shoes :-). Realistically, no matter how much you might like a piece of non tango music on examination you will find it is just paced wrongly, bland, two dimensional (for tango purposes) or alternatively overly complex by comparison. There certainly should not be any rule against dancing tango to non tango music. Dancing and singing are a way of life in Argentina and I am familiar with that mindset from Spain. You just walk out into the street and start dancing, so rules are a bit stupid in that context. It's a dance of the people right. On the other hand, there are some non tango songs that seem to work ok and this isn't just a foreign phenomenon. I have seen Argentineans dancing tango to Zitarrosa, for instance. And there are plenty of old time waltzes to which you can dance tango vals. But do you dance to this alternative music all the time or even the majority of the time? Say you drive a race track in a delivery van. Sure you can do it and maybe make a decent fist of it and make it entertaining, but it is never going to feel the same as doing the same track in a sports car. Tango music is perfectly suited to the dance and Biagi (for me) is the Ferrari of tango music. So why someone would walk past the Ferrari to get into the delivery van is what I am wondering. You might do it occasionally for fun and a bit of a break, but if someone starts to want to do it all the time, because they think it handles better than the Ferrari, that would be a little strange. Victor Bennetts >"Feeling" is one of the characteristics of A. Tango, if you change the feeling >then you are dancing something that is >similar to tango but that it is not >tango. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
That box step for milonga is about a boring as you can get and to my mind is not a great fit to the rhythm of milonga anyway. It actually makes a lot more sense as a drill for tango walking and I have used it for that based on some classes I did with Hugo Daniels where he started with something like this as an exercise and worked up complexity. I should point out that this was just one walking exercise, there were a lot of others so there was no chance to fall for a 'pattern'. The best milonga classes I have done here and in BsAs have not used this pattern at all and I do almost every milonga class I can get to :-). > Since we all hate the 8CB paso basico so much ... > how do we all feel about the open frame 6CB CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Please don't help me!
I have experienced this too in the past and I would observe: 1. at four years it happens a lot less than at two years - the last time for me was in BA and a couple more years and i dont think it will happen at all any more 2. for the bad experiences, there are an equal number of good ones where a follower might nail the one usually small point that you specifically needed to lift your dance. Yes, this can be annoying, but tango is a jouney of mutual learning and whatever the follower's attitude they usually have something to offer. Also for every follower like this there are ten leaders even worse in my experience ready to impart their non expert views to the poor followers they dance with. So spare a thought for them. > At a recent class, through the vagaries of rotation, I spent most of the > time paired with a very helpful follower. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
I can't talk for Americans, but I can say that the probable reason most Argentinians are not so screwed up by the 8 step is that they already know what good tango looks like and have been immersed in dancing (if not tango) and tango music since birth. Most anglo-Australians (and I presume anglo-Americans) don't have a culture of dancing, particularly not masculine dancing, so everything has to be learnt from scratch and the teacher has to impart a lot more than just the steps and general approach. In fact they have to impart the whole concept of what dancing is which can be assumed in other contexts and cultures. There is a big difference between someone walking through steps per the basic and someone dancing. Is what people do in a gym aerobics class dancing? No, because it does not have the artistic and expressive dimension. It may be on an equal athletic par to ballet, for instance, but it will never be ballet because at the end of the day ballet is about beauty and elega! nce and aerobics is about exercise. Also, I think the shallow stereotyping of people and particularly the comments about 'asians' in this list are pretty silly. I am no expert on south east asia (despite in theory living in the region), but regarding all 'asians' (and more specifically asian tango dancers) as generally exhibiting some kind of common character is like someone suggesting to an Englishman that he should be lumped in a common bucket with the Irish Scotch and Welsh, at best an alarming proposition I am sure. Victor Bennetts > I want to know why American teachers advocate >teaching Tango differently than Argentine teachers. And, right now, >I'm using the 8CB as an example. Argentines teach it and nobody has >a problem. Americans teach it and, it seems, everybody has a problem. >Keith, HK CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Challange in Teaching Newbies [Was Breaking the'paso basico']
It *is* the sequence's fault, actually and the teacher's as well for using an outmoded method of teaching. You don't have to teach beginners the basic in order to teach them how to backstep. You do have to unteach dancers who learnt via the basic the habit of backsteping at the start of every song. Oh how I love the crashes! And nothing marks out a tourist more in the milongas of BsAs than starting every song with a backstep. We are not just talking about beginners here, there are plenty of 'advanced' dancers out there who just can't break the habit. Is it any wonder that Argentine followers are suspicious of dancing with foreign leaders. Look no further than this...how can a follower relax and trust their leader when they feel the danger of a collision at the start of every dance? Further, if someone is taught from the start that they can step in any direction (forward back side) at any time, but should do so in time to the music - amazingly they start out and remain musical without the need for painful lessons about counting the beat etc. And if they are not worrying about mastering steps they might actually think about their posture, embrace and their follower's axis all infinitely more important subjects. I say its time to stand up for the newbies. Give me one of them any day over an advanced dancer who knows lots of sequences. Newbies don't know yet they have to backstep at the start of every phrase. They don't know what 'going to the six' means so don't assume it is something that has a logical place in every phrase of tango no matter how it is written and must follow from a particular set pattern. They don't ocho, step over or turn unless you actually lead something. Newbies have not been stuffed up yet so even if you have to limit your range to! dance with them at least they are actually dancing. God bless and preserve newbies and may I always be one of them! Victor Bennetts Alexis >That's not the poor sequence's fault (after all, it's an inanimate abstract >object) - it's the teacher's ;). If you haven't taught flexibility in >tempi, step length or alerted anyone to rotational degrees of freedom, >I don't think the absence of the D8CB and its replacement with something >else is going to change anything at milongas. >I can still vividly remember a milonga full of beginners from rabid >D8CB-hating classes that would not do a backstep (fine) but would >still march on to ram their followers into anyone in their way on >their unstoppable forward march; you don't have eyes in the back, >but if you aren't using the ones in your front either, it doesn't make >that much of a difference. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
In BsAs the unwritten rule (at least in the city centre milongas) seems to be that until you are competent (say have had about a year or two of dancing) and have mastered the basics you don't set foot in a Milonga but keep to the practicas. This was the attitude of locals that I spoke to, that you needed to be pretty competent to set foot in milongas, particularly ones like El Beso and Cachirulo. However I don't think that sort of rule applies anywhere else in the world. There just isn't the critical mass in tango to permit such snobbery to last for long although you do see it from time to time. Also everyone accepts that social dancing is critical to beginner progression and most teachers worth the name go out of their way to encourage their students to get out and social dance. If beginner leaders stick to what they know well there is no reason they cant have a great dance and you see plenty of intermediate and so called advanced leaders who are terrible so as long as you have, good posture, a nice embrace and walk and some musicality you are going to make most followers happy (not to mention surprised ;-)). An advanced follower is going to take the basic walking framework and put their own interpretation onto it in the context of the lead anyway. I don't think beginner leaders should worry too much about the snobs including those who will tell you in a loud voice what is wrong with your dance and try and instruct you on the floor. The reality of tango is that serious leaders are a precious commodity and in a short space of time if the beginner leader just keeps working on basics and develops those to a reasonable level suddenly every wants to dance with them. And the beginner leader will have decades of his best dancing to look forward to :-). Victor Bennetts > are beginner dancers not actually welcome at Milongas? >Is there some unspoken rule that a beginner should go off and reach a level >before visiting a Milonga. Is this what was >done in the past or was the >milonga orginially more a social gathering where the young and old would just >come together >informally and dance/learn no matter what the skill level? >'Mash CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] demo advice needed
Further to Keith's advice, I would say that as well as ganchos and lifts a knife fight always goes down well. That should get the audience on their feet. If nothing else to run to the bathroom to throw up :-). Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Vals tandas (previously Pobre flor)
Vals tandas have to be my favourites. Pretty well everyone knows Pobre Flor and Sonar y Nada Mas. But I wonder, if you were putting together a *perfect* De Angelis vals tanda of four songs, what other two songs would you pick? I personally like 'Mi Carinito', but I don't think I have ever heard that played at a milonga. Most DJs would play 'Flores Del Alma', I guess, but to me it doesn't quite have the verve of the other songs, although it is very sweet. I think the other favourite is 'A Magaldi', but I am not such a big fan of that song. Anyone have any views on this? Also, at that tanda site: http://www.tejastango.com/tandas.html#valses There is a tanda with both 'Corozon De Oro' and 'Desde El Alma'. Can you really have two such high octane songs in the one tanda? In that suggested tanda, 'Desde El Alma' comes last, but shouldn't 'Corozon De Oro' come last? Otherwise in my opinion it is a bit like drinking sweet dessert wine after a single malt. Anyone suggest any other favourite vals tandas? Victor Bennetts >The De Angelis vals tanda with Pobre flor had Lito >singing once again. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nino Bien
I was with you up until this point. There are plenty of non Argentinians who dance with passion (myself included) and when I was in BsAs I saw some woeful Argentinian dancers, even some who sit at the head tables. So I am yet to be convinced the milongas of the 90s were any kind of dancer's paradise. Of the milongas I went to there might have been one or two foreign couples dancing inappropriately, but on the whole I thought the foreigners were pretty respectful and restrained on the floor. By far the worst disturbance at Nino Bien of the two nights I was there was when a pair of young local kids determined to dance disco in the middle of the floor, but they were pretty drunk and not up for all that long. That sort of phenomena is not unique to BsAs, it has happened from time to time in Melbourne as well :-). As I have said before Nino Bien is a great milonga because the organiser is so thoughtful and I will always be grateful that he looked after my wife so well the two nig! hts she was there. He remembered her the second night and offered her the same table and when he saw she had brought her husband, asked if I wanted to sit a couple of tables away so we could be apart but dance together when we wanted. You don't get that kind of attention anywhere else and to my mind it is really special and all class. So I don't really care if it is better or worse, its still beautiful and I love it anyway. Those nights were amongst the best I had in BsAs and far from it being all foreigners, I got to dance with about an even mix of Argentinians and extranjeros. And the foreign followers (US, Canadian, Italian, etc) were all first rate (not to mention beautiful ;-)). Nina >Foreigners dance with >technical precision and no passion, ad that is a cultural handicap >that cannot be changed by just talking about it. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo
Yes, therein lies the problem. Gustavo is so far ahead of everyone that his dancing and teaching are of little use to most people. It is simply too advanced for us to learn what he has to teach. I am sure it would be great to study with him if you are already a teacher with 10 years + of tango under your belt and excellent fitness and flexibility. When I get to that stage I will be enrolling in his workshops. But in the meantime and for the rest of us we probably need someone working at a more basic level. Incidentally I don't think you can regard Fabian as intermediate. He has his areas of strength and in them (such as his amazing turns, musicality and elegance of movement) I think he is in a class of his own. But it is not very productive to compare people such as this as they all have their strengths and weaknesses but are so far ahead of the rest of us that we should study everything they do. Victor Bennetts >Rod, thanks for stating the obvious. But some will never get it. >Keith, HK >>On Wed Jan 30 14:07 , Rodney Daniells sent: >> >>I've had the opportunity to be associated with both these dancers/teachers >>and very frankly you can't campare the two. Fabian Peralta with Natasha and >>now with his new partner Virginia looks good and dances very simply and >>elegantly but compared to Gustavo and Giselle they are no more than >>intermediate in their knowledge and skills. Gustavo (and Giselle) are the >>ultimate Masters and it is an insult to compare them with anyone let alone >>Fabian Parelta. >> >>Cheers >>Rod CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Funniest Tango video
I wouldn't call this nuevo. Nuevo is about deconstructing the dance and reconstructing it. To me good nuevo is original and organic dancing per what I saw at places like Viruta and Villa Malcolm. I just love it when I see someone do something and think - wow I don't think anyone else in the world has taken that step in that particular direction or with that timing or placement of feet. It doesn't have to be big flashy things inappropriate for social dancing, only NEW. Just because it has non stop ganchos and volcadas etc doesn't make it nuevo in my book. I am still searching for that perfect nuevo clip - have not found it. >It you called it by another name (e.g., just plain "NUEVO", drop the >"TANGO") and stopped calling the gatherings where you dance this stuff >"MILONGAS", that would at least be more honest.. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an6YcpT9WGA&feature=related CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Creating a strong connection
Virginia, I don't see this so much as an issue about connection per se as an issue about the different ways in which leaders and followers (and indeed different dancers) develop. First off, be grateful for the fact you have a regular dance partner. I too have a regular dance partner (my wife) and at various stages of our tango journey she has helped me, at other times I have helped her. But the more we dance together the sweeter it gets and particularly in the last six months or so (since we got back from BsAs particularly) we have really started to feel like 'one animal' as Cecilia Gonzales puts it, when we dance. We are at the four year point in our tango journey. It has been a long road and there is plenty more left to travel. Consider, a follower can get to a reasonable level with work and lots of social dancing in six to twelve months. It takes much longer for a leader to master all the skills necessary to successfully interpret the music, navigate the floor, create a varied and interesting dance, embrace sweetly, have good posture, keep shoulders in line with follower's etc. In fact, if you ask the experienced leaders in BsAs, they will tell you it takes thirty years+ of constant social dancing! Perhaps an exaggeration, but not as far from the truth as you might think. Demian Garcia explained it to me in a lesson once by drawing some graphs. For a leader he described an arc that was exponential (i.e. slow to start then fast much later) and for a follower one that is logarithmic (i.e. fast at start slowing down to a virtual plateau later) and I think that is pretty accurate. In fact this is why I work so hard at dancing well. My wife is already a divine dancer who is competent to dance with the best leaders anywhere in the world and often I feel like my legs are made of wood in comparison. But to succeed as a leader you need to accept that you have to work twice as hard as your follower to give her the sorts of challenges she needs to improve. Having said that, there are a couple of things he could do that have worked for me personally, both pretty obvious really. The first is to make sure your partner gets to do lots of social dancing, at least once a week, and preferably two or three times a week. Classes and practice are no substitute for social dancing with a whole lot of different followers which is the fire that makes the leader into gold. Secondly, so far as lessons are concerned, just find a teacher (preferably try a whole lot of teachers) who concentrates on the *basics* in a close embrace context and focuses on those until the connection improves. You don't need a lot of steps, just constant reinforcement of the correct way to stand, embrace, walk and ochos. The basics are a lot harder than they look because there are so many things to concentrate on for the leader all at the one time and bad habits are so common. Fabian Peralta described it to me as like learning to drive a car. To start with trying to ! do all those things at once for a leader seems impossible, but miles on the dance floor coupled with a strong focus on getting your basic technique correct will work wonders. One day it will just seem to your partner that he has gone from one finger typing to touch typing and you won't even be sure how it has happened. Victor Bennetts >Hi there, >This is my first posting to the tango L-list so be nice! >I have a question...I'm a follower and I've been dancing for about two >years. I've been practicing with a steady partner, but I still go to >milongas and dance with other people, so I can tell that my partner >and I lack the deep connection that I sometimes experience with my >favorite leaders, that sense of a silent conversation. My partner has >good balance and posture and has been dancing for a long time, though >mostly in open embrace...now we're trying a mix of open and close. I'm >not sure what's wrong. It's good - just not great. Do any of you >leaders have any advice? or suggestions for how a to strengthen the >connection? I apologize for covering what must be well-worn ground. >Best, VSN CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content
Re: [Tango-L] what is nuevo
Martin, can't see your clips right now, but I never set myself up to pass judgement on people like these as is pretty clear from my original post. I was not criticising C and G N, just contrasting the way they dance with something else pretty raw and organic I personally saw in BsAs. Those famous guys are great and it is precisely their greatness that to my mind means they don't qualify for the sort of nuevo experience I am talking about. OK, that is a bit controversial, but it comes back to what I personally saw and am trying (probably pretty imperfectly) to describe. Yes we owe a great debt to C, GN et al as they and their friends probably invented the nuevo genre (I don't know), but it is a measure of their success that whatever they do quickly becomes mainstream now, or at least as much of it as us mere mortals are able to poorly copy. What I am talking about as my own nuevo inspiration is a willingness to break any and all rules within the constraints of complete mastery of the tango basics and come up with something totally individual as a result. I cant do it, but seemingly there are a lot of young dancers in BsAs who can do that. Get ten to fifteen of these guys (and I mean this term to include the fantastic followers) in a room and you see moves that I have never seen in any video but are still unmistakably tango. Also stuff doesn't work, but that is ok, it's about experimentation and pushing the boundaries. You are never going to see this in a performance because by definition performances need to be polished and controlled. These young guys are controlled to a certain extent, but also a bit wild. Maybe they wear their hats backwards :-). I guess you don't have to be young, but it probably helps ;-). Victor Bennetts > Nussbaum, Martin wrote Victor, I am not sure what you mean by calling chicho and gustavo too "polished", unless that means they dance very well. The example you showed from practica x was, in comparison, like robotic stick figures without any soul. Before you go calling Chicho too "old" for nuevo, I think you should look at these two gems. One is Poema, which is a tune I believe you like, the other Darienzo, both done wonderfully by Chicho, and show two sides of his style. Poema, Canaro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGZv6rSRvTo El Flete, Darienzo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjRflYZfuvY CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
I am not sure who posted Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt originally, but thank you so much, they are great. I especially like their Poema and the lovely americanas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgbt0oD-MnA&feature=related With all the talk about Copes recently I also had a look at youtube for Maria Nieves and found this interesting set of birthday dances including Javier Rodriguez and Gavito. Its nice to watch people just dancing for fun for a change: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzwrynxHS8Q One gap in the links I have seen so far (but now there are so many links I can not claim to have looked at every one) in my opinion is that I didn't see any great nuevo. I have a particular style of dancing in mind which I saw in BsAs last year at Viruta, Malcolm and I believe you can also see at PracticaX. The guys I saw had a particular look of sinuous power and did a whole lot of really inventive things in the Arce sort of style, but less polished and more raw and unmistakeably their own inventions. Its not Chicho, Naveira et al, those guys are also just too smooth and polished (and to be blunt too old!). Now when I think of nuevo I think of this sort of playfulness and freedom to invent. But I think you need to master the old dance first so it is still a ways off for me :-). I couldn't find any great examples of this, but found an ok example here to give you an idea of what I mean. If anyone has a better example please post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAi--Zqa99Y Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
I don't have anything bad to say about Copes as a father of the modern tango, just teachers (and there are plenty of them) who still use his eight step basic to teach. Typically they don't tell students anything about connection, navigation or embrace, even though in many cases they know better, they just keep moving into more complex sequences in subsequent lessons. In many cases they also do not correct basic errors such as poor posture. Even if these things are mentioned they are soon forgotten as they are irrelevant to the learning process that is going on in lessons structured in this way. When you dance with someone from one of these teachers you think - wow - how can someone know so many steps and not be able to lead/follow a single one? Today there are better ways to teach tango and I would definitely call that progress. Victor Bennetts >So, I suppose on that basis, we can say Jesse Owens wasn't really that good >because >nowadays he wouldn't even qualify for >the Olympics, let alone win 4 gold medals. No need to be too deferential? How >soon >people forget. >Keith, HK > On Sun Jan 20 9:35 , Victor Bennetts sent: >>Yes, Copes is a legend of the dance, but things have moved on a lot from his >>day both >>in terms of teaching and performance. I think (without mentioning >>Copes specifically) >>that was Naveira's main point in his article previously >>linked by Janis. Tango today >>is stronger than it has ever been and there is >>no need to be too deferential to the >>past. > >>Victor Bennetts > CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
Carlos Saura is a great *Spanish* director and I think that comes across pretty clearly in his movie about tango i.e. it is terrible. Just compare it to his earlier movie about flamenco (Carmen) which is superior in every way (the movie that is, not necessarily the dance). Admittedly I may be a little biased given my Spanish blood, but it seems to me that in the first movie he managed to capture the essence and soul of flamenco and nowhere in the Tango movie does he come anywhere near to that. You get a much better picture of tango from something like 'Tango Baile Nuestro' if you can ignore the weird bits in that documentary. Actually you will find Copes in that film as well. Have a look at him teaching beginners in the documentary and you can draw your own conclusions about his approach to teaching, at least. It is strictly tango by the numbers. Maybe this sort of approach is ok for teaching Argentinians who already have grown up with tango, but as a basis for teaching for! eigners I don't think a worse system is yet to be devised. Yes, Copes is a legend of the dance, but things have moved on a lot from his day both in terms of teaching and performance. I think (without mentioning Copes specifically) that was Naveira's main point in his article previously linked by Janis. Tango today is stronger than it has ever been and there is no need to be too deferential to the past. Victor Bennetts >Copes is known for being the first person to choreograph tango for >professional dancers on stage. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Top Six Tango Cities of the World?
I have not done much tango tourism, but based on followers I have danced with from around the world the scene in Korea must be amazing. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers
I don't require my tango teachers to be charming dinner companions any more than I require this of my doctor. But I do expect them to have good technique. Just have a look at the first two dances on the CITA 2007 video. First you have Javier with impeccable technique. Then you get Fabian who is clearly not concentrating with bad posture looking at his feet most of the time. Fabin can dance beautifully as you can see if you search under his name on youtube and particularly where he is dancing with Cecilia Gonzales. However it seems that for whatever reason he just doesnt bother to any more, at least that is what an objective viewing of the last couple of years of CITA videos reveals. I dont think his status as a great dancer (and yes he can dance better than anyone on this list almost certainly) should stop people pointing this out. Anyone can see his posture is bad and if it is not highlighted then people might think it is ok to dance that way. Victor Bennetts >First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch. >Second, when he is in town, I pay very close >attention, because I learn a lot from his technique. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango with Children
My wife and I have been dancing tango for three and a half years and we have three small children aged four to ten. Obviously we love our children, but they do get in the way of our tango obsession, not to mention trips to BsAs. Does anyone else on the list have experience of discharging obligations as a parent while dancing socially twice to three times a week? We have a great babysitter (next door neighbour's daughter) but she is getting to the age where she might not want the work any more and now she has a job she isn't always available. We have tried bringing them to practicas but that is usually a complete disaster. Plus our trip to BsAs last year used up whatever small child care capital we had remaining with the respective grandparents. Does anyone have any clever strategies that they can suggest we use to get us to the point where the oldest child can take over the caring duties (although I guess by that stage he may be off drinking beer with his mates anyway and n! ot interested in looking after his sisters)? Are their any other parents of young kids out there who have managed to successfully combine raising little children and their tango obsession? We would love to hear about your experiences and whether they have shown any interest in learning tango as well, because ours are resolutely refusing to despite (or perhaps because of) complete tango immersion. Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Teach always in couples? That is partly true in my view. If I ever go to a class and it starts with the teacher telling all the women to go to one side of the room and all the men on the other (sound familiar?), my heart sinks. At that point I am getting ready to walk out. If they start counting out from one to eight then I am changing my shoes and heading for the door :-). But there is a place for individual work. If a class starts with the teacher leading everyone in a walking exercise then I start grinning. If the exercise gets more complex with pivots and embellishments added in and they do it more than for a token couple of minutes I start to really feel like a dancer, warmed up and ready for my partner. OK, so combinations are a necessary evil, because we all need examples to learn from, but I agree with Krasimir that if you teach the combination without correcting basic technique you are doing people a major disservice. For instance, it is interesting how if you see people doing combinations in class out of time to the music you will also find their social dancing is all disconnected from the music. We could call this 'Victor's Law', which has a nice ring to it :-), but I have to admit I got it from my first teacher, who thinks pretty deeply about these sorts of things. Victor Bennetts >Krasimir Stoyanov>In theory, yes. In reality, no. >Most people do not understand they do things that are disastrous both aesthetically and technically. One of the great features in this dance (and >maybe some others) is that they coincide - or even, that aesthetics comes >from the correct technique. Not the other way around. In other words, form >follows function. So when people try to learn a combination, they try to >repeat the form, and have no idea how it is ticking, what the function (the >technique) is. Even if they suspect something is not correct, they'll need >many years to discover it themselves. It is the job of a qualified teacher >to explain where do the problems come from. And in 99% of the cases, it is >from improper walking, pivot and posture technique (leading and/or following). I do not separate these basic things. You cannot have correct >posture for more than a short second, if the walking is incorrect, because >the next bad step will spoil the posture. And the other way, you can't walk >properly, if you use bad posture. Same with the pivot. So these things are >inseparable, and this is how I teach them. ALWAYS in couples, NEVER individually. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Keep it simple
All praise to Google! For anyone interested, the below that originally came from Janis appears to be a highly selective extract of the full text that is as follows: Programa Work Shops 07: 1) All levels. Posture, Rythm, walking, Embrace, Balance. 2) How to integrate more steps to your coreographies. Only little details. Balance and ornaments for womwn. II and III levels. 3) How to develope from simple basics more complex figures. Keys to make a charming dance. III level. 4) Technique to dance Pugliese. Waiting times. Boleos. III level. 5) Milonga caminada and traspié. How to change from traspié to slow speed. III level. 6) Vals. Special walkings (That work is also for tango). Turns and counter turns. II and III level. 7) How to dance on 'a dime'. Milongueros movements. Porteño- tango look and feeling. III level. 8) Technique for women. Balance, Ornaments, turns and 8 atrás. Lightness and Presence. 9) Technique for men. How to make a grounded dance. That can be found http://www.susanamiller.com.ar/programa.htm#ing This all makes a lot more sense (and I am sure would make even more sense in the original Spanish) and thanks Janis for leading me on this chain of inquiry otherwise I would not have got onto looking at Susana's site and would not have posted a link to it. Great teachers like her deserve all the exposure they can get, even if they are pretty good at self promotion already ;-). Victor Bennetts > integrating more steps > develop complex figures > porteno tango look > waiting times > ornaments >>Crikey. The tango teaching scene hereabout sure has some problems >>but at >>least it does not have Susana Miller. >>Chris CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Keep it simple
>From what I have seen Susana Miller is a good teacher with a very individual >beautiful dance. To me the list of topics seems a little out of character, in >fact, hence my suggestion that they may have been dictated by the host or are >being taken out of context. Who knows, but I would take a lesson with Susana >Miller any time, she's great, which I would not say for every teacher out of >BsAs or even most of them. Victor Bennetts > integrating more steps > develop complex figures > porteno tango look > waiting times > ornaments >>Crikey. The tango teaching scene hereabout sure has some problems >>but at >>least it does not have Susana Miller. >>Chris CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Keep it simple
In many cases the topics for lessons are actually suggested by the host, not the teacher from BsAs, as it is a matter of marketing. Surprising isn't it? However that is what I have seen happen in the past. Victor Bennetts >Perhaps you would want to comment directly to Susana Miller? >Doug CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Keep it simple
Krasimir, Sure, most 'beginners' don't understand, but anyone who has danced for more than a couple of years and has been to BsAs gets the picture. However, it is a reality of life that most people want to get applause. After they have been dancing a few years they get someone asking them one day - hey I am putting on a show or need a performance for a milonga - want to be in it? Suddenly they think wow *me* perform (or teach or whatever)... Little do they know that this sort of invitation is usually extended for very selfish reasons, or maybe they don't care because the lure of having their moment of 'fame' brings on a voluntary naiveté. Don't underestimate the power of this sort of inducement. You suddenly see people doing uncharacteristic things which can include, at best, a negative impact on their dancing. For example, how many of these aspiring Javiers and Geraldines have not yet mastered basic things like posture? A lot, in my experience, because they are focussed on something else entirely. They think they are great dancers, but the reality is they would not last five minutes in a ballet class, for instance, because they just don't have any real discipline and in many cases not even a reasonable level of fitness or flexibility. The 'lure of performance' can also lead people to bad choices in their personal lives, a far more serious matter because it can generate a lot of hurt and angst as opposed to simple bad dancing. But that is a whole other fascinating topic out of the scope of this thread. Personally, I would far prefer to just keep working on my core social dance than perform and in time try and emulate someone like El Nene rather than Gavito. But I think you will find this sort of attitude is in the minority. The lure of performance, teaching (which can be another sort of performance) etc is just too strong. Hence there will always be a demand for workshops to 'develop complex figures' and the flip side is you will get people walking out apparently bored when the most subtle and beautiful things are being taught by a living legend of the dance. Victor Bennetts >Behalf Of Krasimir Stoyanov > >Janis, >Nobody will understand you, I'm afraid. Every time, when I try to >explain to >someone that his/her "tango" is not quite tango, he/she is puzzled at >best >(thinks I am not in my right mind) or sees offence in my words at >worst. >From: "Janis Kenyon" >> When I read... >> >> integrating more steps >> develop complex figures >> porteno tango look >> waiting times >> ornaments >> >> as topics for workshops, I want to cry and scream because the tango >I know >> in Buenos Aires isn't being shared in my country. It's a crime >that >> people >> get a counterfeit rather than the genuine. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
>From what I observed in BsAs, the talking between songs is much more >protracted than in other places I have danced (i.e. Australia). I was amazed >that the talking went on for what felt like a full minute into the song and in >the crowded BsAs context it is quite difficult to start dancing until everyone >is sorted out and moving on the floor, at least unless it is very early or >very late in the night. I don't think this was a foreign phenomenon as I heard >foreigners complaining about the starts of the songs being 'wasted', whereas >the chatty Argentinians seem to revel in the opportunity for small talk. I >guess the difference is there is much more of a feeling of cohesion between >leaders in most BsAs milongas compared to back home so when the dancing did >start it was like there was some secret choreography whereby everyone got off >in synchronisation. Maybe people talking in the middle of the floor here is a >bit more jarring because we don't have the same strong floor craft. Bu! t I am surprised Roger is complaining, he is one of the best leaders we have and seems to slip around the outside of any obstacles with no visible effort :-). Victor Bennetts > > > How's this for a solution - ask them to move the > conversation off of the floor. > > CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] rose in mouth, singlehandedly from one film?
Is it a snap or a dip? My recollection of these sorts of stylised performances is that they have dips in them but I don't recall a snap and I have not got youtube here to check. Head snaps in flamenco? I have never done a flamenco lesson as such, but it's the national dance of half my family, so I have been exposed to a fair bit of it over the years. I recall a lot of clapping, castanets, hand twisting, lifting of skirts, stamping of feet and men twisting at their waist, but nothing like a head snap. I don't know what sort of flamenco has head snaps in it, but I don't think it is the sort danced by ordinary people in Spain. No doubt someone will set me straight by sending me a youtube clip ;-). Victor Bennetts Astrid >What you call "the silly headsnap" also exists in flamenco, one of >the roots of tango. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Chris>The only historical evidence I've seen or heard of professional teachers >of social tango to natives of that time is of dance schools that served a >minority who had no family or friends to learn from I don't know a great deal about the history of tango, but a teacher out of BsAs who started dancing in the late 70s, early 80s, before the resurgence of tango, recently gave me the benefit of her recollections. She told me that when she started dancing, the milongueros of the time all danced completely differently. She said at one of the infrequent milongas of the time you might only dance with three leaders all night and she could remember being amazed at how different those three leaders could be. Apparently the leaders were very conscious not to dance the same steps as other well known dancers, because that would be like infringing their copyright or admitting the other guy was better or something like that. Interestingly, at that time there was only one regular milonga a month (Sunderland) and it was a revelation apparently when a weekly practica started up. Its hard to imagine BsAs without El Beso, Canning etc. I think she said Gricel was the only one of the current milongas running back then, but it mainly played cumbia (?) with just one set of tango maybe as a break! I believe this particular teacher was classically trained so that is how she came to dancing, but she said no one thought to work at tango in any formal way back in the early 80s because there was no expectation anyone outside of Argentina would ever be interested in it or that anyone could ever make a living out of it. She said that by comparison, the leaders of today are very similar one to another with just what she described as 'some variations' between dancers. So that is an objective evaluation of differences between modern leaders who might model themselves on Javier, Julio, Chicho, etc from someone who is in a position to make a comparison between modern tango leaders and the milongueros of the 80s. This tendancy to standardisation is not all down to teachers and individual performers I am sure. A dance form must just mature over time and modern technology would hasten that process. Youtube, for instance, would have an enormous impact. Take the colgada craze of a couple of years ago. They came from nowhere and suddenly everyone was dancing them. The craze has subsided, but now they are an accepted part of the standard tango repertoire, with a pretty standard way for them to be led and accepted variations to fit them into various different social dancing situations. So take your pick! of who you want to model yourself on. Maybe it doesn't really make much difference anyway. Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
TFH, you may have your own style, but I don't believe people develop a style from taking lessons. Private lessons are great at helping you fix problems with your body, like if you are looking down and watching your feet while you are dancing, or not dancing with a straight back, or stepping inelegantly, or not leading with the chest. This is ensuring your body is actually moving in a way that is technically correct. I would call this the physical element of dancing tango. The other thing you get from lessons is a repertoire of steps you can use, some guidance on how to fit them to the music and points on things like floorcraft. This is what I would call the intellectual element of tango. Style then is a third element and, in my opinion at least, something different to both of those other things. I should add that a categorisation of tango into these three elements is not an original thought of mine. I got this from a lesson with Hugo Daniels, but the rest of my comments about 'what is style' are all my own ;-). Based on my observations, most people already have a distinctive way of dancing from the very first time they step on the floor. It is really amazing how in many cases this 'style' actually reflects their personality and is very revealing about them as a person. Sure, it evolves a bit as they work on perfecting their technique, increase their repertoire of steps etc, but if they started out as a solid dancer usually they stay a solid dancer and just get clearer and lose any wasted movements out of their dance over time. By way of example, some followers I know are really earthy and grounded and dancing a milonga with them, for example, is great because they give you so much push back it is like you are spring loaded. Others are so precise and delicate always stepping delicately *here* or *there* in an ocho, for instance, so it really is like you are both dancing on little hearts. Still others love gently squeezing you to do slow sexy embellishments so dancing with them is a bit like flirting. And all of these tendencies seem to be established very early on from what I can tell. To take one extreme example, someone who comes to tango after a long period dancing ballet in their teens is going to dance very differently from someone who has never danced before. They are going to tend to be turned out, for a start, which has an impact on the way they step and the way they feel. Also, a tall person's dance is going to be shaped in many ways by the efforts they make to deal with the issue of height difference to most partners, so this will impact their embrace and hence the way they feel. There was a thread a while back talking about how jazz drummers interpret music differently - another example :-). So I apologise in advance to all the teachers out there, but these observations lead me to conclude that this ineffable thing we are calling 'style' actually has a lot to do with body shape, aptitude and attitude rather than what you may or may not learn in lessons. Victor Bennetts >> >> That is really good advice TFH, but those things are all about >> dancing well, not about developing your own particular style >> Victor Bennetts >> TFH>Actually, I have always been told, since those >lessons, that I have a style of soft tango that noone else has (in the >places that I have danced). Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101: There's a woman waiting to dance the tandawith me, but she's not the one I invited
Ah yes, all the anxiety of the Cabeceo is coming back to me as I read Janis' post. Of course, from a leader's perspective the reverse of what she describes can also occur. You have a woman nod to you curtly from across the floor. At least you think it was you that she was nodding at. Some of them make it pretty obvious but others give you not much more than a brief condescending raise of the eyebrows before they look away. So you get up onto your hind legs with pretty much the same sensation in your guts as the diggers must have had going over the top in WW1 to face the barbed wire and machine guns. Suddenly the floor seems to be twice the size it was before and your legs have shrunk to half their length so you are moving as rapidly to the other side as you can but hardly making any progress. Eventually you arrive and the follower does nothing to acknowledge you. I eventually hit on the strategy of clearing my throat and giving a slight bow. They look around theatrically blinking as if to say, oh *you* want to dance with *me*. That is what we might describe as the 'fair weather' scenario. There is a lot that can go wrong. Firstly, you can suddenly spot another leader come into view obviously heading for the same follower. You then need to recheck if La Reina is actually looking at this guy and if she is looking at neither of you then you have to decide if the other guy was the one who actually got the nod. The decent thing for the follower to do would be to take the guy who gets there first, but as we know, not everyone is decent. It is also quite possible for a follower to seemingly change their mind while you are making the long journey and pointedly ignore you when you get to the other side. I take this as just another manifestation of the fickle nature of women ;-). Hopefully the bar (or the bathroom) is in the same direction as the follower's table so you can pretend you have just paused to adjust your shoe and make for it to save face. Yet I am still desperate to get back to BsAs and do it all over again! Victor Bennetts >>>This is a common situation for men in the milongas of Buenos Aires. They're seated on one side of the room, and the women are on the other side. A man invites a woman with a nod or tilt of his head, and she accepts. There are other women looking in his direction at the same time. As he's walking across the floor, he sees another woman has entered the floor and approaches him to dance. What does a gentleman do in this situation? He dances with the woman who is in front of him on the floor. The one he invited is seated. She waits patiently while he dances with the other woman because she knows he will invite her for the next tanda. This avoids an awkward situation for both women. The men who don't consider the woman in this situation will explain that they invited someone else. She then has to return to her table and deal with the situation. I have been in this situation many times when man who invited me was intercepted by a very eager dancer who thought the invitation was for her. It's not worth saying or doing anything about the situation. Women can avoid this situation by remaining seated until the man reaches her side of the floor and makes eye contact with her. Afterall, we want to dance with a man who wants to dance with us. Janis <<< CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
That is really good advice TFH, but those things are all about dancing well, not about developing your own particular style (whatever that might mean). If you are aspiring to develop an individual style, I think it is assumed you can already dance tango confidently. Victor Bennetts >>Martin>How does one move past mimicking influential >>icons and into the realm of developing a unique >>personal style in tango, TFH>I believe the question was: "How do you create your >own style?" ... >(1) The first set taught me to be dynamic. Lessons >included: ... >(2) The second set taught me about tortion and dancing >like Chicho. ... >(3) At the beginning of the third set, I told the >teacher that all I wanted to do was to be able to walk ... CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Martin>How does one move past mimicking influential icons and into the >realm of developing a unique personal style in tango, 'Style' is a much misused word just like 'milonguero', so this is a discussion fraught with danger. They are both tainted with their use as marketing terms and at the end of the day all you can really measure is what works to make a nice dance for the follower and what does not, based on follower feedback. However I have been thinking about the S word a lot since a teacher from BsAs recently said to my wife and I that we have our own 'style'. What does that mean and is it a good thing? So here goes... I don't think in Martin's post he is talking about style. What he is saying by contrasting the strong areas of Chicho, Julio and the like is just that every iconic dancer has their strengths and weaknesses. That is to be expected and is just like every other area of human endeavour. Take a group of leaders in a local community, for instance. They all get taught the same steps at the same time, but for whatever reason some seem to be able to do colgadas without a problem but just don't get it with boleos and then others are really comfortable in open but just don't cut it in close. So you see guys struggling for years to master the area in which they are weak. Say for argument's sake it is boleos. They get all worked up when they have to do one. They force themselves to do it. Through years of effort it eventually becomes textbook perfect, but is it enjoyable - no, because it is always going to be a little forced and unnatural. Arguably, the effort is wasted and they should j! ust acknowledge what they are good at - some people are born sprinters and others are long distance runners. However I don't think this tells us anything about style. It is just a question of aptitude. I was lucky enough to have a lesson with Milena Plebs on the weekend. I apologise in advance in case I misrepresent her, but this is my recollection of what she covered. She said a lot of interesting things and had a bit to say on the topic of developing your own tango style. At one point she said that there are many young professional dancers who can do way more complicated steps than milongueros, but the 'mysterious' quality which makes the old guys what they are is that if they execute the same step as everyone else, they do it in a way which is unmistakably individual to them. So she taught us a pretty simple sequence and then invited us by various suggestions to explore different individual ways of executing it. As she explained it (paraphrasing somewhat) a process of natural selection has to go on here fuelled by the leader's individual input. Critically, they can't get this from anyone else, it has to come from the leader him or herself according to Milena. She also s! aid the whole style thing is a really subtle concept, so I doubt it is something that would necessarily be apparent from performances on youtube which are designed to be spectacular for visual effect. I think professionals like performers, teachers and choreographers are actually at a disadvantage in some ways because they have to work on everything, develop spectacular routines and follow popular trends, not just develop what is required for a nice dance. My own personal goal is just to make a nice dance, so I choose not to think about style at all when I am dancing. I don't think it is going to do anything to get me a better score card from my follower. Instead I make some promises to my follower each and every time I get up to dance. The first promise is not to do anything that does not feel nice to the follower. That means accepting my own limitations and having the courage to drop things out of my dance if I can't get them to work or they feel forced. I can always try them again later after a couple more years :-). Secondly, I promise to try something new and unexpected every day. Some of this stuff won't work, but whatever is left over will be mine. Cool, now I just! need another thirty years of dancing and I will magically have a style no problems ;-). Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- leaving the floor at the end of a tanda
>From what I observed in Argentina, many of the leaders who are in the outer >circle know the songs so well that they can plan things to end their tanda at >precisely the same place where they started. Hence very little escorting is >required. The woman's seat is right there where they started, which of course >assumes that they have walked up to the woman's seat to start the tanda - a >requirement of the cabaceo. I think walking the follower to the edge of the floor (not necessarily all the way back to their seat) is a minimum courtesy and I have not had any bad feedback on it in Australia. Victor Bennetts Christopher >Speaking only from my personal experience, This happens because most >American (and perhaps European and Asian as well) women don't expect >the man to walk them back, and act a bit uncertain about the fellows >who do try to escort them back to their seats. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Leaving the floor
I agree that with a new follower it can take four songs to adjust to each other's styles and generally the dances improve over the tanda. But with anyone I have danced with before, even for only one tanda at a previous milonga, in my experience any dance could be the best dance. In fact, in many cases it is often the first dance and the follower may then say 'that was great', which of course puts a curse on the next three dances ;-). Victor Bennetts Keith> The 4th song of a Tanda is almost always my best dance. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The silly season
I am setting up a charity for poor tango students who can not afford to buy tango shoes. Please send me any tango shoes that are the wrong size for you or that you no longer wear. This is a good cause and hey, its shortly after Christmas so dig deep people! There are lots of needy students out there that require help desperately. (Note: a small portion of the proceeds of the sale of tango shoes may go to help needy students) And if you can't send shoes then please copy me on your 'stories of real sexual experiences through, with, because of tango' (see post of yesterday). I have been cogitating with a workmate extensively in recent weeks on how to come up with compelling blog content to generate web traffic and hence advertising income. Now I see how easy it can be. Just a mail to tango L and we will have all the content we need. Finally, I can not offer *free* tango holidays in Italy, financed by 'FINANCIAL INCENTIVES for all tango teachers, tango club organizers, tango group and milonga-organizers'(from post today), but I am working on a scheme for offering tango products using Amway related principles. This will be a very simple scheme for making money that should even be legal in some countries. To better attract the tango dollar I will be approaching the Lord Mayor of Melbourne to suggest he rename the northern suburbs 'Tango City'. How I love the silly season! Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] dancing with a broom
I think we can all agree brooms are great to dance with as demonstrated definitively in that CITA video. But I thought I would list a few things I like about dancing with my wife in particular and women in general (when the connection is good) that you don't get from a broom: 1. they embrace you with tenderness 2. you can feel their heart beating 3. you can feel them breathing 4. they are warm 5. if you do something inventive or particularly musical you get a small smile or sometimes a sigh 6. the smell of them when you are both working hard and you both start to sweat 7. the way they hold you for a moment after a beautiful dance before they release you and step away Maybe someone will invent a broom that can provide these things but I don't believe it will be in my lifetime. In short, despite all your quarrelsome ways, haughtiness, occasional bad breath - god bless you tangueras! Victor Bennetts Nancy (?)>> Brooms... >> i....don't talk back; >> iii. ...do what they're told, without question; >> iv. ...don't think they're better than they actually are; Astrid >and especially, don't think they are better than you !! Wouldn't you >love >that... CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] (fwd) He played her like a violin/brushes.One morestupid joke. Do not read it, if you
I don't like it if she beats me like a drum. But if she beats me like an egg, that's different story ;-). Merry Christmas all, Victor Bennetts Meaning of life>i tried to play my follower like a cow bell, and she beat me like a >drum. are you all sure this is tango, i did not think dancing hurt >this much. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
I agree with Astrid. Nothing looks uglier on the floor than some guy who thinks he is a great dancer doing a whole lot of intricate steps without any regard for his follower. You can see him in love with his own footwork and totally disregarding the woman. Connection to me means feeling with sensitivity and accuracy the woman's axis and her response to the mark and adjusting to them. For most of us this would be a work in progress because it is easy to learn a sequence but to learn to feel the position of the woman and her readiness to step is so much harder. On the rare occasions when I have nailed this I can feel this great flow of energy coming back to me from the follower and suddenly we are both free to do so much more. Anyway with all this talk of violins, it reminded me of when I first got my violin as an eighteenth birthday present some years ago. It had sat under a house since the 20s and was full of insect droppings and muck. I took it to the local strings guy 'Lance', who fixed it up for me and said it was not a bad mass produced violin. He offered me fifty bucks for it. The first year I played on it the sound was pretty dull and flat, but as my skill improved and as I did classes and exams with it and played with other people all the work and effort I put into it seemed to seep into the wood itself somehow. After about four or five years it gradually took on a really sweet sound and somehow in harmony with the way that I played so that I almost felt like it was a part of me. When I took it back to Lance some time later incredibly he remembered the violin and also was amazed at the difference in sound that it produced. He smiled and said that now he would offer me a hundred bucks for ! it. So I wouldn't say the woman in tango is like a violin, but maybe the connection between the dancers. Victor Bennetts Astrid> I remember the days when I would think on the dance floor:"I am this >finely tuned instrument that responds to every subtle lead and this >brute is >manhandling and abusing it. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower
The 'playing her like a violin' comments are generally offensive but have their place. I reserve them for when I am trying to get other guys who may be sceptical of dancing in general and tango in particular interested in dancing tango. In that case, where I am trying to attract new leaders, I have tacit approval from followers to push the envelope of good taste ;-). Victor Bennetts Tango For Her> I agree. "... playing her like a fine violin" can be (1) meant in many ways and (2) taken in many ways. Air to caution! I, personally, would find that statement to be offensive. I have to say, though, that you could divide this issue into two camps: (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance and (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followers to follow as was described in a previous email. (1) Leaders who listen to the conversation that takes place in the dance: A leader with a mind toward the conversation in the dance might imagine the quick strokes of the bow or the long feathery movement of the bow. Thinking of that inanimate object and thinking of his follower at the same time *could* result in the follower being thought of as an inanimate object, I guess. As long as he is feeling the reaction to *his bow* and changes his lead correspondingly, then, I say, enjoy the dance! The result might be quite astounding. The follower might find that the conversation has climbed to a new level! My personal feeling is that a leader who can change the way he approaches the dance has an open mind and is working on improving his dance. (2) Leaders who strongly expect their followes to follow (and are tuned in to the conversation) That would be a different topic. I didn't intend that, AT ALL, when I started this thread. Thank you, B. Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: B, "you were supposed to lead it" is absolutely the correct response and I just wish ladies would use it more often. And, when a man tries to teach a lady a figure during a milonga, I just wish she'd say ... "don't teach me, just lead me". Because if he can't 'just lead it', than he certainly can't dance it well enough to try teach it. And, to the comment .. "that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin..". I agree - yuck!! is the perfect response. B, if this is your first post, please, let's hear more from you. Keith, HK On Mon Dec 17 4:04 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: >(...as she ventures, a little timidly, out from her much safer lurker >position.so remember, this is my first time :) ) > >Bravo Doug and Astrid!! I am a woman who both leads and follows - many >times back and forth during a single evening, depending on the >crowd...and while there is an obvious difference between the two - I am >a equal partner in the dance no matter which role I haveonce I was >watching a beautiful woman dance with a man who was leading - really >admiring her adornments, musicality, beautiful footwork, and nuance - I >couldn't wait to dance with her - when a guy standing next to me said, >"that's great! he is playing her like a fine violin..." yuck!! >This passionate, beautiful dancer described as an inanimate object that >he "uses," Maybe it is oversensitive to have such a strong reaction to >imagery that other folks use to describe their tangobut part of it >comes from the experience of being told "follows only really need to >learn to follow," having inexperienced (or worse, experienced) leaders >wrestling with you to "get" gancho after gancho after gancho - and >those are usually the same leads who will violently twist your >shoulders over and over to get you do the boleo they demand, and, my >favorite, the leads who will stop dead in the middle of the floor >during a milonga and scold, "you were supposed to do...whatever," to >which the best response, that most follows are too gracious to say, is, >"you were supposed to lead it" > >(...now she tentatively hits the send button, a little worried about >the reaction she'll get but committed to being part of a >community/conversation about a dance she is obsessed with.) > >b CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result o
Re: [Tango-L] Inspiration and Imitation: role models
I think the essence of tango is finding your own style. I hate to use the M word, but that is probably what makes someone a milonguero, that they have refined their dance so much through use that they have their own unmistakable style. I have heard it said in BsAs that a milonguero starts with hundreds of steps and ends up with five, but they own those five steps. To me that is style. Anyway, I don't have youtube at work, but if I had to pick a dancer I want to aspire to be like, style wise, it would have to be Osvaldo and the way he dances with his wife Coca. Apart from his smooth style, I just love that they are married and have been dancing for so long together on and off over the years no doubt through thick and thin, because I get most of my dancing inspiration from my beautiful wife. Victor Bennetts Charles> Try to find the one person, male or female, that best exemplifies either your own style or the style you aspire to. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Steps for close embrace in close quarters
Mario and others, I agree with everything Jay and Ed have said, that is pretty much my repertoire as well and I dance pretty much only in close now. Sure I know (or knew ;-)) other stuff, but it falls out of my daily dance if I don't find it useful in expressing the music. Mainly I find that it is the simple stuff that goes furthest. So when walking in close embrace, for instance, you can get a lot of mileage by just considering all the possibilities. You can walk inside, outside, play with different tempos and lengths of steps all in parallel system. It really is amazing how interesting and varied it can be, but it is a lot harder than it looks. One important thing I found is that to do this well you need good disassociation which a lot of people find difficult, so hence my previous suggestion that you concentrate on exercises. In fact, I don't know why tango dancers don't stretch their torso before dancing. It would make a lot of sense. To me the other main ingredient is posture. When I got back from Argentina I was dancing all exactly the same steps as before I left but suddenly people were commenting it was like I had grown two inches while I was away. In close embrace, errors of posture are going to have a much more significant impact than in open. From what I have been told by followers this has a direct impact on how the follower experiences your embrace as comfortable or not. So any repertoire is not going to get you very far if your head is down, not connecting with the chest, not dancing with a straight back etc. In fact, you can tell the guys who have not corrected these problems, they are all the ones still dancing tango mainly in open embrace after dancing for years :-). Victor Bennetts >Hi Jay, >Very well said. What you have written below is pretty much all I >ever do, >crowded or not crowded. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace question vs boleos question
I think the difference in numbers of posts is perfectly understandable. This is a natural result of the relative difficulty of answering the questions. Defining boleos and contra boleos is relatively easy. Actually doing them well is considerably more difficult. It's a bit like cricket. There are plenty of people who can provide definitions and demonstrations of a square cut or a cover drive without actually being able to make any runs. The only way to improve your batting is to watch how others do it then spend hours in the nets taking deliveries from your little brother ;-). The 'sequences to improve close embrace dancing' question is, in my opinion, a much more worthwhile one, but also by its nature so much more difficult to answer. For a start, it assumes you can improve your dancing by learning sequences then that there are some that are more suited to close embrace. Personally, I think doing exercises is more important than learning sequences. Next in importance is lots of challenging social dancing with sequences a distant third in importance. Sequences and steps are only good if you have a really good teacher correcting what you are doing and pointing out all the other variations and possibilities otherwise they will just be a vehicle for entrenching bad habits, whether in close or open embrace. Victor Bennetts Steve>On Thursday the 13th Mario requested tips on "Close embrace in close quarters". I have yet to see a sinlge response. Meanwhile, there have been more than 20 responses in the "Boleo & Contra-boleo" thread. I guess this speaks volumes about the interests of our on line community. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the best teachers in the world (previously - Don't blame your follower)
I am interested in what makes someone one of the 'best teachers in the world'. To my way of thinking, that is a pretty big claim and who you regard as the *best teacher in the world* would be influenced by the way you like to dance and also highly personal things like whether the particular teacher you are learning from is pitching their lessons at the correct level for you. Equally important is whether they have addressed all the administrative issues correctly like ensuring an even number of leaders and followers in their classes and calling regular cambios de parejas. I have found that all teachers have their strong and weak points. Some are great at getting beginners (and others ;-)) to understand the basics. Others are able to articulate advanced steps like colgadas and volcadas in simple ways. Still others seem to really come into their own when teaching milonga or valz. So I would be hard pressed even assessing relative rankings of teachers in our local community, let alone awarding someone the title of *best teacher(s) in the world*. It sounds a bit like a pizza shop I saw once in Clovis, New Mexico that claimed to make the best pizzas in the world. I thought those came from Naples, but what would I know... The title of that TenaciousD song 'the greatest song in the world' keeps popping into my head. We know the devil plays violin and occasionally, heavy metal guitar, but does the devil dance tango? I am sure he does and that if you can beat him in a tango competition by taking lessons from *the best teachers in the world* you should be able not only to keep your soul, but also win a pair of solid gold tango shoes :-). Victor Bennetts Tango for her>I have been blessed to have the best teachers in the world. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango CD/iTunes collection recommendation?
I really like the compilations from dym like: http://www.danzaymovimiento.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=90681003001 I think at least some of these would be on iTunes. I bought a few of the dym compilations through Amazon a couple of years ago when I didn't own much tango music and they were a great way to build up a reasonable set of danceable songs pretty quickly. There were lots of other compilations I bought in those early days that I never listen to any more but not these ones. They are still on high rotation! Victor Bennetts >Can anyone recommend a few compilation CDs, iTunes song >collections, or any other source that beginners should purchase >first? CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Franelear -- have you tried it?
Damn, I must be going to the wrong milongas. But I did see some very strange pills at El Beso. I assumed they were flu medicine but now I am not so sure... Victor Bennetts >A responsible (you'd think) tango teacher advised: >> When going to BsAs, or anywhere else for the first time, it's always >> prudent to first see how the locals behave and then try to do the same. >Students, do not try dealing coke or selling sex on your first time in >BsAs milongas. >Unless you're sure your teacher has shown you how to do it correctly. >;) >Chris > *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Franelear -- have you tried it? > *From:* Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* tango-l@mit.edu > *Date:* Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:38:01 -0500 > > Astrid, Cherie, > > Perhaps we could also add that Tango students are not children. When > going to BsAs, > or anywhere else for the first time, it's always prudent to first see > how the locals behave and then try to do the same. 'When in Rome, do as > the Roman's do'. > > Many things are taught in Tango classes, including BsAs Tango classes, > that are not intended for use in the milongas. Why do even responsible > teachers always get the blame for what their [adult] students do? > > Keith, HK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
Opinions about what is tango are ok. But please don't toy with us by telling us about dancing at practica X. That is very cruel and now I am very jealous. I think I will have to start a support group for tango dancers with young children who can only travel to Argentina infrequently for short periods. Victor Bennetts >I will confess off the record that I actually danced several ocho >cortados tonight at practica X, dancing in close embrace to D'Arienzo CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Franelear -- have you tried it?
I thought the original post on this thread was a joke. At least I hoped it was but as it has been responded to as if it was serious I feel compelled to reply. Tango is a dance built on trust (not to mention courtesy and respect), so how can someone trust you if you are touching them up. All the followers I know are serious dancers and would just walk off the floor immediately. So they should, because to my mind using a dance for cheap thrills is just sad, pathetic and if uninvited the lowest form of cowardice. Now for something a little more positive and the real reason I am responding. In answer to Lois' point below, I can say that in the two weeks my wife and I were both in Argentina recently (with quite a lot of social dancing) we both had only courtesy and gentlemanly behaviour from Argentines we met. No doubt I did observe some loud mouth show offs and also some obvious 'old guy dancing with very young foreign girl who is dancing badly' behaviour, but lets face it, that can happen anywhere. All of the local guys I actually spoke to seemed genuinely pleased that a foreign dancer wanted to come and dance tango in Argentina and I found them in most cases to be quite modest and quietly spoken one on one. This pleasantly surprised me given their collective national stereotype. Yes, at certain milongas there appeared to be a small minority of back tapping sleazy types, but I thought they were mostly pretty easy to pick and that is where the Cabaceo is good, the woman gets to choose who she dances with. So I am not sure if we were just extremely lucky, but I suspect we had two things going for us. Firstly a positive attitude (or at least a pigheaded determination to succeed in my case ;-))is critical as with all travel because obviously there is a lot of unusual stuff and misunderstandings to deal with. If you expect it to be like Australia, for instance, it can get very stressful very quickly and once you let it get to you the whole place can seem unfriendly. Secondly, being a good catholic boy with a fair bit of Spanish blood and family I probably have some insights into the value system and I think my wife who has spent a lot of time in Italy probably also saw a lot that was familiar. Its not Australia, Europe or the US, its different and you hav! e to accept that you are in their place playing by their rules. Now I know quite a lot of westerners report bad experiences (including some people I really like and respect) so I know it can happen, but I just wanted to put down our good experience so that anyone contemplating a trip can see that it is not always bad. In fact, I know quite a few female dancers from Australia who just keep going back year after year so I think there can be a lot of good experiences as well as the bad ones. Victor Bennetts > [Tango-L] Franelear -- have you tried it? >So I am wondering about another problem - some of the men I bring, or >>Americans or European men I talk to there, complain of rude behavior >by >Argentine men toward them. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Structure vs. technique (formerly I wanna buy a tango book)
The book 'a passion for tango' goes into the whole deal, a bit of a brain dump from the author who also teaches. Like I said, I don't agree with everything in it, but it is far from worthless and many of the ideas are sound based on what I know of tango. There may just be a gap between ability and understanding. For instance, I knew from my first tango lesson that you need to lead with the chest, but it took me three years and (more importantly) a trip to BsAs to really understand what that means. I can't see the videos at all for the moment so can't comment. To me the main attraction of the book is - it is readily and easily available. However, now we have so many recommendations of other books (and my Spanish is a little better) I am going to have to dust off the credit card... Actually if anyone is interested, Amazon has a quite a few reviews of the book I mentioned and I am sure they go into much more detail than what I can give as it has been some time since I picked it! up - too much to practice right now from all those teachers in BsAs :-). Victor Bennetts >Hi Victor, >I'm curious as to whether the book you recommend talks >about the structure of the steps as opposed to tango >technique. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango movies (formerly I wanna buy a tango book)
Krasimir, I don't find your response rude because it is not a personal attack. So far as I am concerned, criticism is fine and helpful, just so long as it is directed to the post and not the person. I agree with everything you say, but don't think this means the book is worthless. I just said the book had some good stuff in it IMHO, nothing about the author's videos or if he can dance. If you look on the amazon listing it is recommended by at least one well known US dancer who can dance really well and it was on the strength of that recommendation that I bought it. The book covers all the common figures like ochos, giros, boleos, ganchos so would be a good reference just to give you a catalogue of what is generally considered to be the tango repertoire. And I liked the guy's attitude, saying things like the 8 step basic wont teach you how to dance tango. I don't see why a bad dancer (if he is bad, I don't know) can't write a good book. You can be an armchair general and write a great biography of Napoleon without actually commanding an army in the field can't you? Incidentally, I also wanted to ask what are people's favourite tango movies and documentaries. I recently purchased 'Tango Baile Nuestro' which is a really interesting documentary IMO. It was made in 88, I believe and filmed over something like the previous 10 years, so it predates the tango 'renaissance' and I find it really interesting for that reason. It was recommended to my wife and I by Aurora Lubiz in BsAs as it has scenes of ordinary dancers dancing tango at Milongas around that time. It is quite a humorous documentary for a tango dancer of today to watch because on the one hand you have films of social dancing at Milongas, which are very familiar and interesting, interspersed with very strange modern or ballet misinterpretations of tango and crazy poetry and acting. Very chaotic and therefore Argentinian actually, so I love it dearly, even the bit where the 'tango dancers' go barefoot into the graveyard to dig up their shoes :-). Amongst the basura I was pleasantly surprised to find really interesting bits I liked, such as the interviews with the 'milongueros' where they are saying that tango is dying out and that people are not dancing as well as they used to. Funny how that is the same opinion regularly posted to this list. Certainly, the milongas don't look very crowded back then, but I am not sure if that was due to the filming. It is also very sweet where these same old dancers are sitting with their families in the park and looking on at a US film crew filming professional dancers doing a choreographed tango for a breakfast program. The milongueros look quite bemused to see these leotard clad guys and are saying that this is very nice but it is not their dance. It is truly beautiful to see their quiet pride and dignity. On the other hand you also have the commercial aspects and distortions of tango. You have Copes teaching tango via the eight step basic and explaining tango in terms of ballet a! nd even a New Zealand ballroom dancer teaching 'tango' to Argentines where he is telling them to shimmy... All the time I was watching I was thinking that at this same time somewhere in BsAs great dancers like Osvaldo and Coco were living in obscurity just waiting to be rediscovered. So I am wondering, youtube clips only give you so much. Are there other movies/documentaries that are recommended tango watching and what are people's thoughts about them. Victor Bennetts Krasimir >Sorry to have to say something that can be considered rude, but their >walking (on the videos) is AWFUL. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Who leads what who follows what
If you let the follower give input into the dance, another benefit is that you can learn from her as well as having nice dances. So to take an extreme example, Maria Plazaola dances with Gavito for years knows his dance intimately. You dance with Maria Plazaola, you feel in the feedback a little of what Gavito must have felt like (for instance). But you have to actually be having a 'dance' and not just pounding the follower with a whole lot of steps, fancy or otherwise, and so full of your own ability as a leader that you cant hear what their body is telling you. I think if you are open to it, this can happen when you dance with any experienced follower, you get reflected into you the feeling of all the great leaders they have danced with. What a nice way to be remembered :-). Victor Bennetts > There is another way to look at it too however, even within the traditional > tango sense- when the leader leads a step, he must then follow the follower > to that step. So, the roles are constantly switching back and forth, lead, > then follow, lead, then follow, etc. Also, the follower can ask for time to > do things within her dance, and it's very good for the leader to listen for > these cues, because, if you have a very satisfied follower, you will have > more good dances. >Randy F CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] I wanna buy a tango book
This book is ok (no I don't know the author and this is an honest independent opinion). I don't agree with everything in it, but there is a lot of good stuff. Also, I hope you don't think you are going to learn tango from a book or videos :-). A book can be ok as a reference, but the only way to learn is to get lessons from good teachers who understand what tango is, not just the steps, then you have to dance socially and practice for years... http://www.apassionfortango.com/site/default.asp Victor Bennetts >I wanna buy a tango technique book, can you recommend me some, please? CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
The tango embrace is intimate so a follower can tell a lot about a leader, are they nervous, are they angry, tired, have bad indigestion, etc. One of the things they can tell is if the leader is actually listening to and enjoying the music. To me that is musicality. I don't think lessons help all that much on this particular point. You have to first and foremost like the music and then secondly listen to it a lot so that you know it by heart and can anticipate what sort of steps are going to fit a particular passage. Where I found lessons personally helpful however is I think as an inexperience leader you are tempted to fill up the entire dance with a lot of complicated steps. Whereas what followers actually want is that you give them plenty of space to feel and express the music as well. Victor Bennetts >I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I can not really define what people understand under the term "Musicality". Another question is how to develop it. >Igor Polk CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Wedding music request
Try this compilation, plenty of beautiful vals on here and it may be on itunes (I have not checked): http://www.amazon.com/Valsecito-de-antes/dp/B000UTTEOY/ Victor Bennetts Hi, Two of my friends are getting married and are looking for music suggestions for the wedding. I think that some tango might be a novel idea. Does anyone know if there might be some standards in Argentina? Or just have a favorite otherwise? The bride and her father in particular are looking for some sort of a waltz for their obligatory dance that is not standard fare in the US (can anyone say "Sunrise, Sunset"?). Thanks in Advance, Jeff G CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
Doug, posting to a newsgroup (or any kind of writing for an audience) is a bit like having a first dance with someone you don't know. It is not a safe activity. You are putting a bit of yourself out there and some people will like it and others might hate it. They may even squash it. But to be a good tango leader you need to be willing to take a risk and maybe get hurt. That is exactly what happened to me on my first night in BsAs when (after three years of dancing in Australia) an experienced follower walked off the floor in the middle of a dance with me at a well known Milonga. So at that stage I could have dug a hole and buried my dancing shoes in it, but instead it gave me the determination to do every class I could and go to a Milonga every night. Ultimately, the hard work and persistence paid off and in my second week I was having great dances with very experienced portena followers at well known Milongas and once I got back home to Australia a few people I respect ver! y much told me they were amazed at how my dancing had transformed for the better in such a short period of time. You don't have to post to this list to become a good leader, but the more people who post and contribute their experiences and knowledge and ask questions, the better a resource the list will be. Every experienced leader has been where you are right now at some point and I am sure the more a leader is prepared to risk and be challenged, the faster they will improve. Victor Bennetts Doug> I don't contribute to list. It does not feel safe to do so. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Subject - about statistics
I don't think you can generalise too much. There is definitely an intellectual element to tango. Just compare it, for a moment, with a dance like salsa, which is much more about getting down and dirty (that can be fun too ;-)). Also, compare something like swing which, from what I can observe, is much more about learning spectacular acrobatic sequences. The intellectual element is important, but I would agree it is only one element in good tango. If you watch a series of performances it is often the ones that are done with affection, tenderness and playfulness, as opposed to pure complexity and inventiveness (the intellectual part), that are the most beautiful to watch. So in my opinion you need both aspects to be a good dancer and a big helping of kindness. I read an interview with Gavito somewhere where he said something like, 'I don't want to be the one who does the most steps but the one who gives more'. So for me good dancing starts with generosity and I agree with what Keith Elshaw says about the need for this quality on Tango-L. I would also agree that if posts lack generosity it would tend to support the view that the posters are probably not going to be great dancers. These would be the same people who start telling their leader/follower what to do in the middle of a dance and how they are not marking/following some sequence step correctly or start loudly complaining about their partner's lack of connection. In that case, they simply don't deserve dances, or any response to posts either. Victor Bennetts >>Dear Charles: >> Without statistics, all you say is crap. And with statistics it >>would be >> even more crap. As about intellect, your utterrances are >>foolish, to put >> it mildly. >> Lucia >[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: >often tangueros from around the country will visit here to dance so I >will get >to put a face to the writings, opinions, and tango philosopies. It is >always a >surprise to see how people dance in relation to what they espouse on >the L >list. Usually the most vociferous and opinionated, especially the >most >"creative" >thinkers who talk about a lot of unrelated semantical, alternative >theories >and such, tend to be the worst dancers, with very few exceptions. >These are >often the same ones who don't seem to do well in Buenos Aires either. >The >intellect has never made anyone a good dancer (and has deluded many >into >thinking >that they are good dancers), but has constantly reared its head over >the years >in posts like the silly thruthiness musings. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] first trip to Bs As
Manuela, My wife, Lisa, really liked the 'technique for women' classes run by Aurora Lubiz out of the Escuela above Galeria Pacifico. She also really liked Maxi and Milva at Maipu 444 and Maria Plazaola and many of the teachers at La Academia run out of El Beso, including the ones who work there that aren't necessarily 'names'. You will probably get different things from teachers who are famous dancers to the ones who are not yet in that category so it is good to do classes with both varieties. Depending on your level of dance you may also find you get as much out of the social dancing as out of the lessons, at least that was what my wife found. Victor Bennetts > Could anyone help me getting in touch with some tango teachers, in Bs As? CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Volcado demo and questions
Sherwin, I assume it is a volcada, I can't see the link for the moment. If it is then it's definitely led. I am not a teacher but this is how I do it. You need to move the follower's axis directly over the foot on which she has her weight so that you can feel the other foot is just off the ground. Then if you step away she has no choice but to lean - nothing else she can do. She needs to know to keep her back straight, but that is all. I find it is easiest to do this if you take a side step around the follower first in the same direction as the foot on which she has her weight forcing her to pivot on that foot. You don't have to do that, but I find this the easiest way to get a follower unequivocally onto one foot otherwise it is not a very easy lead and open to a lot of interpretation. Start with simple small volcadas, which are the nicest ones anyway, and work your way up from there. Remember those big ones (and sweeping ones) put an enormous strain on the follower's back, so don't hold them too far out or in the hanging position too long. In fact, personally I don't do the big ones at all because they would require weeks of practice to perfect and there are so many other things that are more important that I need to put my time into. I guess I will get to them once I have mastered every conceivable way you can ocho and turn, so that should be in about ten years time ;-). Victor Bennetts >Regarding the volcado, link below to an outstanding demo, my 64 >dollar >question is: what does the man do to keep the woman on one foot. Does >the lady >need to learn what to do or does it come completely from the lead CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] favorite tango videos on line
White95r>The videos you posted show some really good, skilled dancers. However, I don't understand why you call this dancing "misleading". Thanks for your kind words. On the "misleading" point, I certainly am not trying to diminish the achievements of these tango athletes. But what makes these videos my favourites is that they contain plenty of stuff that is really helpful (for me anyway) in developing my own dance. There is nothing wrong with the beautiful complicated steps of, say Chicho, but how many times do you see guys at social dances trying really complicated stuff that they must have gotten out of CITA videos or off youtube and doing it badly? On top of that, most of the time these steps are out of context to the music and the leader ends up berating their poor follower for not knowing what to do. That is why I think videos can be misleading. Most of us don't have the time or, realistically, the ability to become as good as a professional dancer, but the videos might make us think we can pull off this stuff socially. That would be as unrealistic as me thinking I can tackle a marathon without further tr! aining because I run 10ks most weekends. Victor P.S. I checked out the web site - feliz cumpleanos :-) CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] favorite tango videos on line
Here are some of my favourites and I base my selection on: 1. I have actually seen them dance in person which I think is worth a lot more than a youtube clip; and 2. they are also good teachers. However I want to put a big caveat on this, because as I said before, the best social dancers don't post to youtube as they don't perform and some of the best teachers, including the ones I have learnt the most from, don't put up videos either as they don't aspire to be 'names'. Hugo & Aurora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XO-GS5O494 Not only great dancers, also really beautiful people with so much positive energy. Fabian & Virginia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D0L-laFEok Fabian took my musicality to a new level, and his turns are amazing. Demian & Carolina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7YjFG9-U0k Just all class. There is much better footage of these guys on the cita videos. Gabriela & Eduardo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k Gabriela is an excellent milonga teacher - a very rare breed indeed. Another general comment I would make is that I find all videos of performances misleading. Complicated stuff looks good in performance, but the best dancing is not complicated, solo muy suave y dulce, che. Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Style wars (previously Fw: Tete)
Astrid>The pro dancers that I like all have a very firm base in dancing at >milongas, and still look way better than Tete, IMO I agree Astrid, Balmaceda is a brilliant dancer and teacher for that matter. I don't need to look at a video of him because I have taken lessons from him and watched him dance in person. I have also watched Tete dance in person at a number of Milongas and in my opinion at least he looks pretty impressive. Also, I think with guys like him there is a lot going on that you can't see, that is just there for the follower. Basically imho they are both good dancers with different strengths and possibly styles, but I am not sure style is so important. I am not really wedded to a particular style, I just like anything that feels nice to a follower and is appropriate to social dancing conditions. Many of the very best social dancers I saw in BsAs (and out of it for that matter) aren't famous or well known and you won't find their videos on youtube. They are just average guys who dance week in, week out and have done for years because they love social dancing, but don't perform or teac! h. There is one further point to make. If you ask the pros how they learnt to dance in the first place, they will probably tell you that all the top professional dancers around today learnt a lot of what they know by observing the old guys who have (or had) been socially dancing for decades. I never asked Balmaceda that question, but I got that from Cecilia Gonzales, so I think she is an authoritative source. Whether the old guys make good teachers is a different issue on which I can't comment as I have never taken a class from one of them. But I do think any record of their dancing is tango gold that should be treasured and studied. I don't know if they are 'masters', but they are what they are. Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tech entreaty: Please care how your post is published; or your stats..
Tools->Options->Mail Format->Internet Format->Plain Text Options But mine was already set to 76 characters, so there may be some bug preventing this from working. Have reset down to 70 characters and turned off Word as the mail editing program [Tools->Options->Mail Format->Message Format and there is a check box] so that may also help. Victor >Apparently there is a way to get Outlook to insert line feeds at a >specified >character length for you, so I will look into that Monday >and post it. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
Astrid, these old Argentinian guys (I am not specifically talking about any particular dancers here) are not saints or role models, far from it. They are good dancers however in the scope of what they do which is social dancing on crowded milonga floors. A lot of what looks great on stage could never survive in that environment as I am sure you are well aware. To make the dance interesting and fit into those crowded conditions requires a lot of subtlety and that is what I admire. Yes, the showing off may be regretable, but it is basically their world which they have kept going through a lot of turmoil in Argentina so we are privileged that it still exists and we can be invited into it. However to some extent we are always going to be outsiders when we go to places like El Beso. Plus, the particular dance Igor posted was a Valz which clearly was not choreagraphed so it is a bit unfair to compare it to different (much slower and more varied) music danced by professional dancer! s. But what would I know, I have only been dancing for three years - I am sure after I have danced weekly for a few decades (Tete style) I will have a totally different view of the world (and dance) :-). Victor Bennetts >As far as I can see, Tete is not doing anything special and Susana Miller is basically a clever business woman. Maybe Tete is too, anyway, I know a Japanese lady who went to BA, sat in a milonga and there Tete walked up to her and said:"I am Tete, would you like to take private lessons with me?" He probably could smell that she would be able to pay for it (she is) but it did not work as that particular lady is a fan of Fernanda and Guillermo. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] favorite tango videos on line
After all the debate about what a milonguero is, I think this video defines it. Here you have a guy who has been dancing every week, many times a week, for decades with other similar obsessed dancers and it shows in the beauty and subtlety of what he does. Victor Bennetts >Tango is this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJDowJI0-7s That is how "I" feel about Tango. Igor Polk CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tech entreaty: Please care how your post is published; or your stats..
Thank you Igor for putting me onto such a facinating issue. Here I was expecting to Google a quick fix but instead stumbled onto layers and layers of debate and standards. To say this is not a browser problem is strictly correct but a gross over-simplification. As I understand it (I am not a web developer or mail administrator) the lines don't wrap because the archiver program that formats the plain text messages for pythia wraps them in tags. This is signalling that the message is preformatted text and hence is not to be formatted and wrapped (the default behavour I believe). Apparently there is a way to get Outlook to insert line feeds at a specified character length for you, so I will look into that Monday and post it. That is the quick work around, but I see this as an arbitrary mangling of the message. And adding line feeds manually seem so seventies. I see this as really a mail archiver issue. The archiver should be smart enough to recognize text that consists o! f long lines and either break it up or, much better still, wrap it in different more appropriate tags. There is a lively debate over whether to manually input carriage returns, an issue as controvertial as followers unwinding after the cross ;-). The quick quick fix is just to cut and paste the long message into wordpad or word and it will reformat fine. Here is a really good article on the background to the problem and ways in which various standards bodies attempt to solve it (actually a really interesting site about email formatting in general): http://mailformat.dan.info/body/linelength.html Here is one guy's defence of long lines: http://www.tnlc.com/eep/wrap.html Here is some background on the relevant html: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html Anyway, sorry for the offtopic (somewhat) post and for the unreadable messages (including this one ;-)) P.S. As anyone who works in IT will tell you, never trust a developer, just love and abuse them :-). Igor wrote>It is not a browser problem. No browser will ever wrap the HTML text in a window. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] smart tango consumers
Feelings are great but they only get you so far. I am not a mathematician, but
surely tango is capable of mathematical modelling. For instance:
(1/style(posture + embrace))*{1,2,3...n steps}^musicality(melody + rhythm)/
[collisions U boleo disasters] = tango success index
Once we have tango down as a mathematical expression we can write a computer
program to generate optimal tango moves for us. The next logical step is to
turn it into an online role playing game and then commercialise it. I look
forward to the first virtual Milonga.
Alternatively if you are a lawyer you can come up with a restatement of tango
law. This would require an extensive set of definitions including for the roles
of leader and follower and setting out clearly the rights and obligations of
each party in various situations such as when the follower is crossed PROVIDED
THAT due regard has been given for sui generis steps created 'on the fly'.
Remedies for breach of obligations could range from simple apologies to
custodial sentence requiring the offender to be summarily removed from the
dance floor. Naturally there would be many grey areas and disputes as to
interpretation and I would be happy to act as a chair for international tango
arbitrations.
Because as a leader if you just make your goal to give your follower a nicely
executed simple dance which they enjoy and ditch everything else where is that
going to take us... oh wait damn - that is my idea of good dancing ;-)
Victor Bennetts
CAUTION - Disclaimer *
This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely
for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are
not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other
person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses.
Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not
liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail.
You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or
attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all
messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this
e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system.
***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS***
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Cross :: To unwind, or not to unwind, that is the question...
If I am going to lead a forward or side step out of a cross I should lead the unwind. You can feel the woman is in the cross in close embrace so I think this should happen naturally anyway. Here is my wife's views: I think there is plenty of time to unwind when it a side or forward step is led even if you are crossed. By that I mean that you unwind when you feel the lead to step forward or to the side but not really before. Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Estimates about the number of foreigners in milongas -Was: Re: Leaving for BsAs tomorrow
I went to Niño Bien both Thursday nights for the two weeks I was in Argentina a couple of months ago. My dances were split about 50/50 foreigners/porteñas, although I am not counting the dances with my wife on the first night. At Canning, Gricel and Glorietta most of the dances I got (say 75%) were with porteñas. There were some great dancers at all those Milongas and some terrible ones, but mostly in between the two extremes. I really loved Niño Bien because the organiser was very thoughtful about placing my wife at a good table and remembered her the second week and offered her the same table, a real gentlemen. Also, for the night I was there with her he made sure that although we were on different tables we were close enough to keep in touch with each other and dance together when we wanted. No wonder that Milonga has such a great reputation and has been running so long. Victor Bennetts Janis wrote: The majority of dancers were foreigners (95%) with only a handful of locals. CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] New generation of milongueros
Yes, partly improving is about working on the right things and partly it is about miles on the dance floor. So if you want to be a milonguero I suggest a simple program. First, take a few lessons from Susana Miller or someone else from her or a similar school of dancing, the people who have made a life time's study on how milongueros dance and can actually communicate how to do it. Then throw away/sell your car, bike, train ticket and instead find a willing follower, stick an ipod bud in each ear and lead her from home to work every day. Doing this with your wife is good because you want to spend more quality time together anyway right? On the first day just do walking and then the second, ochos and alternate. Throw in a few turns from time to time. Allowing for (in my case) 10km each way that adds up to a powerful lot of miles. After a couple of weeks you will probably be professional standard and can open your own tango school :-). Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iron Logic Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 6:15 AM To: Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] New generation of milongueros Janis is right. The milonguero became a milonguero by dancing for long time, his dance is refined by the number of miles around milonga ..and the tens of years. Now he has become old, the strength is not there, he can no longer perform all those cool moves he was so good at , youth is gone. The age has taken the toll. But the dance is there, it is the cream . Trying to be a "milonguero"s may be a meaningless persuit by definition. If you know how to dance, have a liking for music, dance for as many years as "milonguero's did, you will become a milonguero, it is inevitable. IL Robin Tara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hey Janis, I think there are a few. But just a few - men under 65 who might actually be able to carry on the real dance of the milongas. You know who they are. There the guys who don't dance with every new hot chickie who comes too the milonga. They're the ones who watch - really watch for the women who dance. They're looking for someone they can mesh with. Someone who moves to the music and with her partner. If she does any adornos, they're few, subtle, in the music and she doesn't do the same thing every time. Whether she's 30 or 60 doesn't matter. When a milonguero finds a partner for a tanda, he wants to please her. He is gracious, playful, gentle and giving when he dances and between the dances. He walks (preferably dances) his partner to her chair. There are a few of these guys in the younger generation, thank heavens. Most of them do not teach or take classes - they dance. Robin > I laugh every time I read someone being advertised on Tango-A as one of the > new generation of milongueros. > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Creeps - A Question for Halloween
I agree with Manuel. It is really a bit of a non issue. Closed and open can both be good, but the main thing is that both dancers are comfortable and connected to each other and the music. I personally prefer closed because for me it feels more connected most of the time, but sometimes height difference, general nervousness, nuevo music/moves etc mean open is actually better. I don't see that many creeps in tango, but the women can tell who the creeps are whether they are dancing open or closed. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of WHITE 95 R Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 6:10 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Creeps - A Question for Halloween > All, > Has anyone encountered the situation where open dancers regard close-embrace > dancers as creeps? > > Neil Of course. However, not only "open dancers" regard some "close-embrace" dancers as creeps. Oh yeah, there are probably "open dancers" out there who are regarded as creeps too. It's not the style of dancing which defines creepiness ;-) And one other thing, the creepiness can be in the eye of the beholder too Cheers, Manuel ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] One more comment about shoes
Just for the reference of anyone planning a trip and wondering about the price of shoes - I did a bit of shoe shopping in BsAs (with my wife) and although I didn't go to Comme il Faut, I did go to a lot of other shops. I found the average price of good dance shoes to be about 200-250 pesos around the same price for men and women. These were really beautiful shoes. There were also some nice shoes on special at some of the smaller shops at the 120 - 150 mark which is the more typical price of street shoes over there from what I saw. My wife went to Comme il Faut and she told me that although it was mainly tourists in there she also saw a couple of Argentinians trying on shoes. On the way to the milonga at Glorieta (my favourite :-)), walking through Belgrano, you see lots of wealthy porteñas who, no doubt, could easily afford 350 peso shoes, but I am not sure if they dance tango ;-). Victor Bennetts Madreselva Zapatos wrote >I have to disagree!!! some people down here make more, some make less but the true fact is that Argentine women give a lot of care to beauty & fashion so they might just save an entire year just to buy a pair of shoes if it worth it & wherether it is 350 pesos or less !!!... CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] One more comment about shoes
Hey, I would have said never, but if Chicho decides to dance in heels next year we will all be doing it within a couple of weeks :-) Victor Bennetts From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 5:57 PM To: Victor Bennetts; tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] One more comment about shoes >"I am prepared to do a lot for tango, but putting on heels and fishnets is >probably where I draw the line" Only "probably", Victor...??? Still unsure, I take it? >:-))) D CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Shoes-re Trini
Deby Novitz> Do you think Argentines making 1200 - 1500 pesos a month rush down to Comme il Faut to buy 350 peso shoes? Guess again. >From a leader's perspective I did notice in Bs As that the worse a leader's >shoes the better they seemed to dance. And if you saw a guy in those two tone >show shoes their dancing was pretty well always unbelievably awful. Ditto >anyone in the over the top clothes that some of the tango shops sell. On the >other hand, from my observations at least, the follower's shoes tended to be >in the 'well worn but beautiful' category. For me at least, follower's heels >(high medium whatever) are as much a symbol of the dance as a bandoneon and >watching them all at the crowded Milongas was quite mesmerising. I am not sure >how locals can afford them as they were complaining about the ~12 peso entry >fees. Maybe the shoes I saw were all Comme il Faut shoes bought before the >peso crisis... Victor Bennetts CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] learning tango from videos (originally high heels)
I can't really comment on the shoe shopping, but every tango shop in BsAs has videos promising to have you dancing tango in '8 lessons' or some similar claim. And if you ask for a video of a particular performance or show which they don't have then all these instructional videos come out instead. On the occasions the salesperson was actually a dancer you could make them smile by saying - 'dance tango in a week - really?'. Victor Bennetts Deby Novitz said: >Here was a shoe salesperson who DOES NOT dance telling me >how I could be dancing in these shoes... CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] One more comment about shoes
Don't be too down on sneaker wearers. My wife wears sneakers if she has some kind of injury she is working through, not out of choice. I know a couple of other followers that do the same. I mean, classical ballet dancers wear them for training so how bad can they be? On the other hand, now I am doing a bit of following (because my wife and I want to learn each other's roles) I can feel myself naturally going up on my toes and how nice it would be to be in heels... I am prepared to do a lot for tango, but putting on heels and fishnets is probably where I draw the line ;-). Victor Bennetts Deby Novitz wrote>Dance sneakers are a disaster. You cannot work the floor with them... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] interview in El Tangauta, October 2007
That is an awesome interview, particularly for anyone who aspires to dance this style and has had lessons with la academia teachers (Susana Miller's school). Thanks so much for posting it Janis. The quote I really like from the interview is: * Creo que ese nombre surgió como una veta comercial, algo que se vendió así. Porque milongueros somos todos los que vamos a bailar a la milonga.* *I believe that that name arose like a marketing tool, something that was sold. Because all of us, who dance at milongas, are milongueros.* Now I am smiling thinking of myself as a milonguero :-). Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janis Kenyon Sent: Friday, 19 October 2007 3:08 PM To: Tango-L Subject: [Tango-L] interview in El Tangauta, October 2007 Online Interview with Graciela Gonzalez and Susana Miller http://www.eltangauta.com/nota.asp?id=809&idedicion=0 excerpt follows: What is the origin of the milonguero style? GG: Before it was called Tango de Confitería. More than a name, it turned into a fashion and a monster. With this I do not want to be pejorative. On the other hand, some fashionable postures limit the mobility of the two members of the couple. Many times the man has to bear an enormous weight because the woman crosses her left arm in diagonal on his back. SM: I believe that the form of embrace does not influence the difficulty of moving someone. It is true that in tango many things are done because of fads but I opt for not resisting too much because these are phenomena will affect you anyway. Obviously, you don't have to accept every new thing but inevitably you will imitate, because in order to preserve a principle you have to keep updating it. When I began, the embrace was not so closed, I closed it more and later people were also creating on their own. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire
I was just using the term milonguero to mean someone over, say, 50 who dances tango in BsAs on at least a weekly basis and has done so for decades. Based on my very limited observations over a two week period there are a few of those 50+ guys who don't dance so well. I can't be sure if they are regular dancers, but I did see some of them out at a few different milongas and talking to or sitting with the famous guys like Tete, Flaco etc. I am not really sure I fully understand what the word 'milonguero' means. I think it was my wife who told me a milonguero is defined as someone who danced in the golden age of tango. That seems to be the definition Janis is assuming below. According to wikipedia and general googling that would be someone who has been dancing from the mid 50s at the latest. On the other hand based in conversations at Milongas and in taxis in BsAs I perceived a far broader definition which encompasses the hard core of dancers who have been dancing for decades. From what I observed I don't think Argentinians go in for precise hair splitting definitions too much :-). Anyway, does a decade more or less really make a difference? Victor Bennetts Janis wrote: Milongueros have been dancing for a lot longer than thirty years. Those who are still around have been dancing a minimum of 50 years. The milonguero lifestyle has been around since the 1920s in Buenos Aires. A milonguero lived for the night and tango--seven nights a week. He had to dance very well. I have danced with many of them. No milonguero dances badly. Milongueros didn't learn by taking classes for years. They learned by watching other milongueros and then developed a personal style. Ricardo Suarez went to the downtown confiterias and clubs to watch for two years before setting foot on the dance floor in 1940. Five women from Switzerland, who hired the milongueros for tandas, showed up yesterday at a milonga. I asked one of them, probably in her 40s with only two years of tango, about her experience dancing with them. She said, it was good and bad. She enjoyed dancing with them but wasn't used to being embraced. I responded, that's how tango is danced in Buenos Aires. Tango IS an embrace. Victor Bennetts wrote: Cool, I agree. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. Obviously I am not saying that after three years I am going to be executing steps as smoothly as a milonguero who has been doing it for thirty years plus. My contention is just that experienced and less experienced dancers can both have 'great' dances as long as they are applying themselves to the things that are really important. There are plenty of experienced dancers out there (including milongueros) who dance badly probably for all sorts of different reasons. I am not sure about the talent side of things, because that is really a subjective assessment and I am not even sure if the list I gave is complete or the right list for everyone. It is just my list that works for me.>> ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
Cool, I agree. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. Obviously I am not saying that after three years I am going to be executing steps as smoothly as a milonguero who has been doing it for thirty years plus. My contention is just that experienced and less experienced dancers can both have 'great' dances as long as they are applying themselves to the things that are really important. There are plenty of experienced dancers out there (including milongueros) who dance badly probably for all sorts of different reasons. I am not sure about the talent side of things, because that is really a subjective assessment and I am not even sure if the list I gave is complete or the right list for everyone. It is just my list that works for me. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: WHITE 95 R [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 1:49 PM To: Victor Bennetts; tango-l@mit.edu Subject: RE: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > The great thing about tango is that it is a dance of the people. I don't > think you need talent. In my opinion you do need to: > 1. embrace with seriousness and tenderness, > 2. be inventive and creative in the framework of the music, and > 3. dance with passion (in other words commit some emotion to it rather than > just walking through a routine). > If you do those things then in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are an > absolute beginner who only knows how to walk or a trained classical dancer > that can execute 12 pivots on the spot. Either way you are going to be having > a beautiful dance. > > Victor Bennetts Dear Victor, You are right about the 3 items you list, but although I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I must tell you that there is a huge difference between a talented, experienced dancer and even the most "passionate" beginner. And yes, it does matter. Nothing wrong with feelings and passion, but you simply cannot dismiss and devalue skill, musicality and experience. Cheers, Manuel CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
The great thing about tango is that it is a dance of the people. I don't think you need talent. In my opinion you do need to: 1. embrace with seriousness and tenderness, 2. be inventive and creative in the framework of the music, and 3. dance with passion (in other words commit some emotion to it rather than just walking through a routine). If you do those things then in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are an absolute beginner who only knows how to walk or a trained classical dancer that can execute 12 pivots on the spot. Either way you are going to be having a beautiful dance. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Pesochinsky Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 12:14 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys Alright then... Be talented, or else! :) Nina At 07:50 AM 10/17/2007, Lucia wrote: >Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the >Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age. > > This "inconvenient truth" is challenged by > the un-talented, with resounding financial success. > > Lucia > >Tango Tango <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >escribió: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up >for in stamina. > >Neil > >PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;-> > > >http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat3.asp?id=2287 > >- > >Seguí de cerca a la Selección Argentina de Rugby >en el Mundial de Francia 2007. >http://ar.sports.yahoo.com/mundialderugby >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
My wife had luck with using the classes to generate dances, but I didn't find them so useful. In fact in one class I had a woman tell me my mark was all wrong and hand me a card for tango taxis ;-). Staying in a tango house or travelling as a group with other dancers, at least initially, is a good idea. Then you can go to a milonga together and you are already set for the first few dances. As a leader it is a good idea to do the first few tandas with people you know because learning to navigate the typically more crowded floor is a bit of an issue. One big benefit of doing the class, for a leader, is that you will be dancing and getting acustomed to the floor right from the start. As the floor fills gradually you will have more chance to adjust as the conditions get more crowded. At least that was my experience at Nino Bien, for instance. I would also say that some milongas are more formal than others and there are plenty of decent followers who have been dancing one to two years who are prepared to take a chance on a new leader, so it is not a universal rule that you will be left hanging the whole night if you have not yet had a dance. And once you have had a couple of good nights it all gets much easier because although the tango scene is bigger in BsAs it is still a pretty small community relatively. Even in the two weeks I was there I was amazed at how often the same faces popped up. Actually the main thing that helped me was just persistence. My first night was pretty dreadful but I just kept going out to milongas and after a few nights things improved considerably. If you don't get discouraged and keep a positive attitude (important but difficult) things will improve. You probably do need a fair bit of solid social dancing in your local community (say two to three years) before you go but I am taking that as a given. I hope those observations are helpful to anyone else planning their first trip. Victor Bennetts From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Maria de los Angeles Olivera [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 1:56 AM To: Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] taxi dancers Hi everybody, What happens in Buenos Aires is that no good dancer (either man or woman) will dance with somebody that she/he haven't seen dancing before. That means that if you want to be invited to dance at a milonga without renting a Taxi dancer, you should go to a class first (many milongas have classes before the ball) so as to meet some people who is going to stay afterwards. This is a good way to be sure that somebody will ask you to dance/ accept your invitation. Best, María [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: My apologies, I just noticed that part of the quoted phrase was deleted from my posting. The phrase was "... it its really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs...typically if you are not well known by the local dancers." Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Los referentes más importantes en compra/venta de autos se juntaron: Demotores y Yahoo!.Ahora comprar o vender tu auto es más fácil. Visitá http://ar.autos.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I believe that was my wife's experience as well. That the cabeceo is actually a two way thing and really designed to ensure the woman is comfortable with their partner. The main difference I noticed is that women are expected to remain seated (hence their table position is critical) while we men are free to roam around like hungry wolves ;-). Actually that is for the benefit of the women as well, according to my wife, as it is murder standing in tango heels waiting for dances for any length of time apparently. Victor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of musette fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 5:31 AM To: Konstantin Zahariev; Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers I didn't feel at all "stuck" in BA by the cabaceo, on the contrary I felt free and much more in control of my own destiny. As you say, women can, um, encourage anyone they want to ask them with eye contact, and in the meantime they don't have to accept any dances at any time that they don't want to, for whatever reason. Terri --- Konstantin Zahariev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/15/07, Carol Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Seems to me that it's the > > women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them > > to ask anybody. > > Is this really true? It seems to me the cabeceo is more or less an > equal opportunity custom since both women and men can initiate an > 'invite' by staring at somebody. I realize the usual line is that only > men can invite but with cabeceo, this requires a fairly narrow > definition of 'invite'. Realistically, both women and men invite with > their eyes, though on the dance floor, after that negotiation, it may > appear as if the woman only accepts. > > Since in BA the cabeceo is used extensively, if not exclusively, I am > not yet convinced that women are more stuck than the men in getting > dances. > > With best regards, > > Konstantin > Victoria, Canada > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire
Janis, my comments are not intended to be a criticism. I also could only afford two weeks in BsAs on my first and only visit and probably wont get back there for some time. I had both good and bad nights there and on the bad nights certainly would have benefited from an arrangement like this one, so I can well understand the benefits and motivation. But I guess reading this sort of post raises all sorts of interesting issues in my mind. The milongueros hold a pretty special position in tango and if they (and potentially other experienced Argentinian dancers) start charging money on a more widespread basis for social dancing, what is that going to do to the Milonga scene over there in general? Secondly, why is it valid to pay them for social dances, but presumably not the many other experienced dancers around the world? I don't know the answers to these sorts of questions, but I do know what I feel, which is that tango (i.e. the social dancing part) must always be absolutely ! free! Its libertango after all, right :-). Victor Bennetts From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janis Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 10:28 AM To: Tango-L Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire Victor Bennetts wrote: ...it also makes me think that tango then becomes a bit like a fast food where you just order up your dance partner.> A trip to Buenos Aires is an investment of time and money. Few foreigners have the luxury of living six months in Buenos Aires--the time it takes to become known in the milongas. In the near future, there won't be any more milongueros. I can name a dozen who are in poor health and who no longer dance. Women who hire one of the many taxi dancers available have one partner for the afternoon or evening. The group of European women I mentioned had six different milongueros during four hours. They were all tall, slim women over 50 dancing with men 65-83. I saw smiles on all of their faces. I didn't have to ask if it was worth the money. They hired the same men for six nights. Their dancing probably improved as a result. They didn't have to deal with the cabeceo since the men were ready for every tanda. This week they will be going to the milongas alone and without arranged partners. I had to make five trips over three years before I danced with a milonguero. First-time visitors can hire a milonguero. Call it fast food or whatever you want. I call it the only way to dance with the best while they are still around. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire
Paying for dances is quite an interesting subject. I have heard that in Japan there are far more women than men who dance tango, so the Japanese women have to import men (Argentinians naturally) to dance with. I don't know if that is true, but that is what I have heard and if it is true it is a perfectly understandable reasonable solution to a local problem. Also in Argentina I saw a couple of foreign leaders who had been taking classes with me sitting at tables at Milongas with very attractive young Argentinian women who I presume were tango taxis. I know from personal experience that it is really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs (and sometimes in other places too!) typically if you are not well known by the local dancers. There is nothing worse than sitting through tanda after tanda of songs that you love not being able to get a dance (particularly if you have to watch other people you know getting dances), but I can't imagine ever paying someone to dance with me. I certainly don't want to criticise people who resort to this because I can understand the need all too well. However to me the whole point of tango and the joy (and pain) of it is trying to get someone onto the floor based on your own merits. So I always feel terrible if someone suggests they dance with me and I think it is out of obligation. Those are never my best dances or anywhere near my best. Whilst I can understand this sort of arrangement fills a legitimate need, it also makes me think that tango then becomes a bit like a fast food where you just order up your dance partner. Personally I would prefer to spend a year in front of a mirror alone doing exercises until my dance improved. I don't think you can dance at your best unless you are a bit hungry. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janis Kenyon Sent: Monday, 15 October 2007 2:28 PM To: Tango-L Subject: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire Sunday night I went to dance at my favorite club de barrio. I was pleasantly surprised to see several men arrive who I know from the downtown milongas. It's unusual to see any tourists at this club, but a group of eight women and two men showed up and were seated at tables near them. When the first tanda began, all of the milongueros were dancing with the foreign women. The two foreign men had two local women for dance partners. It was obvious that arrangements had been made for the group to have some of the best dancers in Buenos Aires for the night. I knew I wasn't going to get one tanda with any of the men. They danced nonstop with the group of women. During my eight years in Buenos Aires, I have never seen six milongueros dancing four hours with a group of tourists. The women were delighted. I met one of the women in the ladies' room. She told me that this is her first visit to Buenos Aires for two weeks. She lives in Switzerland. Others in the group were from other countries. Two teachers made arrangements for the women to have regular tandas on two weekends (Fri/Sat/Sun) with these men. I told her if she was here alone, she could wait hours to be invited to dance, and none of the men in the group would dance with her. She had tandas with all six of the men and danced as much as she wanted. It goes without saying that the milongueros were being paid for their services. If this kind of arrangement is made more often for tourists, it will give the young, inexperienced taxi dancers some competition. The quarterly guide on everything to do with tango that accompanies the magazine B.A. Tango, Buenos Aires Tango, edited by Tito Palumbo, added taxi dancers one year ago with five listings; now there are three times that number of listings. However, they don't include any milongueros. The milongueras/os hired were Adela Galeazzi, Elba Biscay, Antonio (placed 9th in the Campeonato Metropolitano 2006), Abel Peralta, Jorge Uzunian, Ricardo Suarez, Jorge Orellana, and Alberto Dassieu. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from
Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
Ron wrote: > Imagine telling a beginner man... My wife and I were lucky enough to do a class recently with Fabian Peralta and Virginia Pandolfi and they said leading is like driving a car. At first you think it is impossible to concentrate on follower, music, navigation, posture, connection etc all at once, but after a while it will just become second nature. They certainly make it look easy :-). Victor Bennetts From: Tango Society of Central Illinois [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2007 1:08 PM To: Jay Rabe Cc: Victor Bennetts; tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas] On 10/11/07, Jay Rabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Victor wrote:> Its not unusual for a follower to do something you don't expect. Amen. In fact, if you get right down to it, it's pretty UNusual for a follower, no matter how experienced, to do EXACTLY what you expect, in terms of her step speed, direction, or timing. IMO one of the goals of a leader is to accommodate the variability of his follower's responses. Like Gavito said, "I lead, but I follow." The leader cannot afford to "expect," to count on, a specific response. He must wait for her to start moving, pay enough attention to her that he can see/feel what she's doing, and adjust his step and body mechanics accordingly. Sssh. Don't tell anyone this. This is a secret. Imagine telling a beginner man he has to learn to find the rhythm of the music, watch out for navigational hazards on the dance floor, develop a strategy on the spot for dealing with them choosing from a repertoire of movements he has learned, then lead the woman to move in the intended direction with the intended speed while maintaining the connection, and THEN ... HE HAS TO FOLLOW THE WOMAN'S REPSONSE TO HIS LEAD TO DETERMINE HIS NEXT MOVE ?? (within a millisecond, after all, this is not chess), and take responsibility for whatever goes wrong. And we wonder why there aren't enough men in tango. Yet the surviving men keep trying. It must be that the rewards of tango are greater than its obstacles. Ron CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to changepartners.
I went to a very similar teacher in BsAs. But on this occasion there were so many more women than men that the teacher just left the leaders in one half of the room with half of the followers and took the other half of the women down to the other half of the room for him to dance with one after another. Oh and did I mention they were all the youngest followers wearing the least clothes :-). Needless to say the leaders got very little attention for the rest of the class... Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacob Eggers Sent: Friday, 12 October 2007 5:05 AM To: Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to changepartners. One teacher down in Buenos Aires had a technique that really worked for both gender ballance and getting people to switch partners. He would let people practice for a few songs during which he was almost continually taking followers by the hand and placing them with their next partners. In this way, no one was waiting to practice for more than 30 seconds, even though there was a large gender imballance. The behavior also fit his personality, I don´t think that this would work for every teacher. On 10/11/07, Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ok, no one knows how to grow a good ( I mean excellent ! ) man-dancer. > GOOD ! > > Now, much more practical question. > > When one has 4 couples who do not change partners per, say, other 6-7 > couples, it is a real disaster. > These people just dump the energy ( not to speak that they needed it most > ). > Especially if the class is more difficult than average, and if there are > some extra women. > > What to do with it? > > I am ready to tell them to leave if they do not start to change partners. > > I already used all persuasion power I know of, telling stories that it is > good for them, bla-bla-bla, and for forth.. > > Can anyone help me with an advice how it works in practice? > > Note: all students are of the same level. Actually those who change are > better, and they do not mind practicing with less advanced stubborn > not-changing students. > > Or may be I am wrong? Should I dump those who are without a partner? > > Igor Polk > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
Its not unusual for a follower to do something you don't expect. I try not to put it down to either poor leading or poor following, but it doesn't make me give up or not want to dance with a particular follower. They all have their good points :-), but some followers just need a little more assistance with certain steps than others. If I don't have the skills to give them more assistance then that is something I would need to work on. So generally if something has not worked I just lead the same step again, but a little more firmly. And if it still doesn't work maybe a third time. If it doesn't work at that stage then there are two possibilities. The follower may have a certain way of doing a certain step. You can still have a nice dance if you just lead that one step the way the follower is expecting. But I find that pretty rare. In my experience usually the problem is I only led a particular step with people 'expecting' it before. In that case I get help from a more experienced dancer. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Sent: Friday, 12 October 2007 3:50 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas] Of course, Jeff, I'm sure the reason couldn't possibly be your poor leading. Personally, I've never had a woman ... "automatically resolve into an ocho". If you want something different, Jeff, lead something different. And if you can't - don't blame the woman. Keith, HK On Thu Oct 11 22:05 , Jeff Gaynor sent: >I actually don't really know many figures at all. I am referring to attempting >to get, e.g., a clockwise turn that the woman doesn't automatically resolve >into an ocho. Heck last week I had one so bad I actually tried letting go of >her in the middle of it and she *still* did a solo ocho. I could have been >across the room for all I could influence her. > >How do you politely indicate to >someone like that they need to actually pay attention to the lead for a >change? Women talk about a man's delicate ego but forget they have one too. >I see tango as an interaction: I offer something and then follow how she >resolves it. >If there are only a couple of resolutions women seem to know or at least >bother practicing >up to any level of fluency, what to do? I'm starting to think like Manuel and >just avoid >certain women on the floor. > >Jeff G > >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How?
Ron, you have put it so well. I know exactly the sort of 5 great male dancers Deby is talking about. Really they don't exist anywhere else in the world other than BsAs. When I first got to BsAs and was desperate to get dances I was really furious that some women only seemed to want to dance with these old guys. After a few milongas and a few dances with experienced followers (20 years plus) I started to realise that this is a really silly attitude to have. Just to take one example, the way these followers would embrace you is so totally different to anything else I had experienced in tango I was amazed. There is such a concentrated seriousness and tenderness in the simple embrace, a beautiful thing and you have not even taken a step! So I imagine for followers it is the same deal except ten times more so when they dance with one of these guys who has been dancing for decades. Of course, these 'milongueros' are not all great. I also saw and experienced some truly appallingly bad dancing there as well from experienced Argentinians :-). So I think visiting BsAs is really important for a leader's development, but there are also great leaders and teachers outside of BsAs. Really most of the things that I observed there were the same things my teachers had been going on about for the last three years back in Australia like lead with the chest, stay connected, listen to the music. It just makes a difference to see how far it can really be taken and what beautiful results you can get when you do actually nail it. I was talking to one of these old guys lamenting the fact I had so much to learn and he looked at me with a wry smile and said, yes but you are young (hehe I love being called that at my age) and have years to perfect your dance. So I guess the bottom line for a middle order leader like me is that there might be a long hard road ahead but provided we concentrate on the things that are really important, then unlike many other things in life we will just get better with age :-). I find that a very encouraging thought. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tango Society of Central Illinois Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2007 5:15 AM To: Igor Polk Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Growing up an excellent man-dancer. How? On 10/10/07, Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So, my question is how to bring up those excellent tango dancers: > > How to retain promising beginners, how to provide a guidance of great > dancing, how to motivate men not to stop in the middle. What workshops are > possible to train great man-dancers? > > The situtation Deby is talking about is Buenos Aires. The men she is talking about are probably milongueros in the 60s or older. They have been dancing for decades, perhaps as long as 40 or 50 years. It would be safe to say most, if not all of them, did not take tango classes. They grew up enveloped in tango, its music, its customs. They learned by observation and by practice, the tango they found inside themselves developed, individual yet always in harmony with the environment and culture in which tango lived. There has been some comment about the quality of men dancing in the US. Yes, there are quite a few men who have acquired a great deal of skill in excecuting a wide variety of tango steps, leading women to follow a wide variety of tango steps, mostly on an open dance floor. However, put them on the crowded dance floors in Buenos Aires milongas and even the best American tangueros cannot compare to the best Argentine milongueros. How can one expect them to be as good? Very few men in the US have been dancing more than 10 years, although some who have been dancing less than 5 are hired as experts to teach at tango festivals. What I see as missing in American tangueros (myself included) that is present in Argentine milongueros is a way of interpreting the music which such precision, with such subtlety, with such passion (and that doesn't even do it justice) that only someone who has tango music circulating in their blood, beating with their heart, breathing with their lungs, and riding the waves of their nerves and muscles can do. It is so obviously different and it is so difficult to emulate. So, while tango classes taken from fellow countrymen who have mastered the dance in 5 years may help you in setting you on your journey of producing a good male tango dancers (provided it doesn't send you up some irrelevant alley or off some tango-destructive cliff), in order to produce a better American tanguero, you need to send him to Buenos Aires to observe the best male dancers. He needs to dance a lot on crowded milonga floors. Any progress will take some time. It will take repeated visits. Even then, the best will still be apparent only as works-in-progress. It has taken a lifetime to produce these milongueros.
Re: [Tango-L] D.. Novitz, the good life in buenos aires milongas
All good, and according to my wife it is really important for women to have tables or at least enough chairs to sit at. Standing in heels is murder apparently. Men can roam around but there is something really nice and civilized about walking across the floor to collect a woman from a table then escorting them back to the table after the tanda. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tango Society of Central Illinois Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2007 4:24 AM To: Nussbaum, Martin Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] D.. Novitz, the good life in buenos aires milongas On 10/9/07, Nussbaum, Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Here's a suggestion for all US milonga hosts: > > 1. Have enough lighting to make cabaceo possible. 2. Play a cortina > between tandas long enough for the dance floor to clear. 3. Do not > start the next tanda before the floor clears. 4. Announce this policy > in advance. > > Martin Yes! Yes! Yes! Great ideas. Milonga organizers, please listen. Ron ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Jungle and Women's Tricky Tricks
Something I don't think anyone has mentioned about Argentina is that once you have someone you want to dance with actually on the floor and the first dance is done(a difficult and stressful endeavour), the whole spell of not being able to talk to them is broken and it is quite acceptable (indeed almost compulsory) to let them know that you really love the way they dance to Biagi, for instance, and you would treasure such a dance with them the way you treasure every moment of your life ... etc etc :-) Argentinians really make an art form of compliments from what I observed. It is a bit shallow I know but I was chuffed on the rare occasions between dances when followers said things to me like 'I was looking at you for ages, why did it take you so long to look in my direction?'. I don't know if these sort of things are sincere, but you certainly remember that follower and are pretty quick to single them out for a dance at the next milonga. So now I have let the secret out about! how easily manipulated men are with our fragile egos, you can probably see that it is pretty easy to patch up a rejection if you really want to dance with someone. Just tell them how great their vals is. I mean, you want to dance a vals with them because you do think they do that one well, right? And I will put money on them asking you for the next vals tanda that comes up :-) Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: Carol Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 6 October 2007 12:29 AM To: Victor Bennetts Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Jungle and Women's Tricky Tricks Hey, sometimes our feet *are* sore and we really need to rest! Have you ever worn tango shoes? ;) This is a bigger problem in the tango world than in other dance styles, because of the difference in customs. In other dances I can say to the guy "when I'm done resting, I'll come over and ask you." Obviously in tango this is mostly not done. So, if you really *do* have sore feet, how do you reconnect without violating the code? Another problem -- I do want to dance with a guy, but not a milonga, I would rather dance a tango. I say, "Can we not dance to this, but dance to a tango instead?" They walk away, and don't come back, because they feel rejected. Can I go over to them and ask them to dance the tango? I don't think so. How can I reconnect in that situation as well. Inquiring minds want to know. C PS - those who say you shouldn't dance after you have turned someone down, are absolutely right. It's very socially rude. I think some women are getting sloppy with this because of the tanda structure. Turning down one dance means sitting out the rest of the whole tanda, so they throw away the rule. Too bad. Victor Bennetts wrote: > As my wife and I both dance I get to see this issue from both sides. Remember > it is generally no easier for women than men at a Milonga and generally if > there is an oversupply of women as is often the case it is a lot harder for > them. So you really have to respect them if they don't want to dance with > you. Having said that, it is a social dance and a little kindness goes a long > way mujeres :-). > > After initially really resenting the cabaceo in my brief and only stint in > Argentina I must say I ended up liking it a lot. I was really down on it > until my wife pointed out that it was just a lovely means to allow the woman > to choose who she wants to dance with. For instance, in Australia, if you go > up to a follower and they want to turn you down for a dance usually they give > you some sorry excuse like they have sore feet or need to rest. So in > Argentina you avoid all that and furthermore once you get someone to smile > and nod at you then you start to feel really special actually. Already you > feel like you have shared something and she has chosen you and something > great is about to start. I don't want to make it sound like some perfect > solution because there are all sorts of cabaceo disasters and difficulties, > but when it works it does seem to work beautifully. However I could not > imagine doing it in Australia (and I imagine the rest of the world is pretty > much the same), i t! > would probably just be ridiculous and forced out of context. > > Victor Bennetts > > -Original Message- > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com protection * registration * liability * enforcement CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy,
Re: [Tango-L] The Jungle and Women's Tricky Tricks
As my wife and I both dance I get to see this issue from both sides. Remember it is generally no easier for women than men at a Milonga and generally if there is an oversupply of women as is often the case it is a lot harder for them. So you really have to respect them if they don't want to dance with you. Having said that, it is a social dance and a little kindness goes a long way mujeres :-). After initially really resenting the cabaceo in my brief and only stint in Argentina I must say I ended up liking it a lot. I was really down on it until my wife pointed out that it was just a lovely means to allow the woman to choose who she wants to dance with. For instance, in Australia, if you go up to a follower and they want to turn you down for a dance usually they give you some sorry excuse like they have sore feet or need to rest. So in Argentina you avoid all that and furthermore once you get someone to smile and nod at you then you start to feel really special actually. Already you feel like you have shared something and she has chosen you and something great is about to start. I don't want to make it sound like some perfect solution because there are all sorts of cabaceo disasters and difficulties, but when it works it does seem to work beautifully. However I could not imagine doing it in Australia (and I imagine the rest of the world is pretty much the same), it! would probably just be ridiculous and forced out of context. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of musette fan Sent: Friday, 5 October 2007 4:18 PM To: Tango Society of Central Illinois; Michael Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Jungle and Women's Tricky Tricks Thank you Ron. As a woman who strongly believes in the civility created by the use of the cabaceo, I was preparing quite the response to these issues, but you said it much more succinctly! Terri --- Tango Society of Central Illinois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/4/07, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On top of that, women sit together and spend so much time talking they > > give the impression they would rather talk than dance. That's their > > prerogative after all, milonga means gathering. It's just difficult to > > figure out if they want to dance. Daniel Trenner once said it's rude to > > intrude on a woman talking with her friends because it puts her on the spot > > to decide to dance -- or abandon her friend(s) in mid-sentence. > > > > Michael > > Washington, DC > > I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango > > > > A lot of these problems would be lessened if the cabeceo were used more > outside Buenos Aires. > > This prevents men from being embarrassed about approaching a woman and being > refused a dance. > > It protects women from the social obligation of dancing with someone who > asks you but with whom you do not want to dance. > > It allows women to invite men to dance. > > Ron > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:41 PM > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Jungle and Women's Tricky Tricks > > > > > > I think what turns many guys off is not the music but the too many women > > who > > think they are too beautiful or too good to dance with one of the plain > > joes. > > The worst ones are the ones that turn a guy down claiming they are resting > > and > > then instantly pop up and start dancing with a younger or better looking > > guy. > > > > > > ___ > > Tango-L mailing list > > Tango-L@mit.edu > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys
