Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
> From: Charles Roques >Susanna MIller is given far too much credit for something she didn't do. >People were dancing that way long before she supposedly "popularized" it.> Personally, I think Susana Miller deserves all the credit she receives. Of course, she didn't invent milonguero style but, as far as I know, she was the first to teach it. At that time the milongueros didn't teach and Gustavo Naveira has written that when he first started dancing, "the milongueros wouldn't share their secrets." Susana Miller made milonguero style accessible to a new generation of dancers who were simply unable [or unwilling] to spend the amount of time on the dancefloor that the original milongueros did. Without her, and those who came afterwards, we might all be stuck with salon style. And if you think that you can learn salon style and then make an easy transistion to milonguero style, I know from personal experience that it's just not that easy. The techniques [and musicality] of milonguero style are very different to salon. Just my opinion. :-) Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
Tango in Bs.As. takes a wide variety of form. For those who know (I do not), how was tango danced in Bs.As. before the arrival of Susanna Miller, who popularized the so-called frontal style (frontal contact), suitable for crowded milongas? It was danced close just as it always was. Susanna MIller is given far too much credit for something she didn't do. People were dancing that way long before she supposedly "popularized" it. She is known outside Bs.As. mainly because she starting teaching it as a distinct style, when it is really just a variant of tango de salon. People in other countries who hadn't danced very long and were so distracted by nuevo styles, which were popular, didn't realize that people had never stopped dancing close in Buenos Aires. Yes, milonguero style with the arms in close and more frontal contact at the chest is a byproduct of crowded milongas, but she did not originate it or popularize it, especially not there. I and others I know danced with people from Bs. As. that way before we ever heard of Susanna Miller. To her credit she does not usually make the claim either. Charles ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
The fact is that before 1980, most people in Bs.As. danced the elegant tango Salon style, although the Milonguero style was danced as well in packed milongas. However, it is unlikely the milongas were as well attended as they are now. The style of Todaro, Mingo Pugliese, Julio Balmaceda and many others is danced in Buenos Aires to various degrees. It is the emphasis that changes. Good teaches make their students do lots of walking, to help train the body, with less emphasis on steps. That is how it was in Bs.As. However, today, even in Bs. As., instant gratification is often the norm. Tango in Bs.As. takes a wide variety of form. For those who know (I do not), how was tango danced in Bs.As. before the arrival of Susanna Miller, who popularized the so-called frontal style (frontal contact), suitable for crowded milongas? Gordon On 12/25/10 1:33 PM, Jack Dylan wrote: >> From: Charles Roques >> <> or >> teaches >> the style of Orlando Paiva anymore.>> >> >> Not true. I do and have for years, as also do others outside of Argentina.> >> > That's my point. To me, Tango is what is danced in BsAs. Sorry, but what's > done outside Argentina simply has no relevance to me. > > Jack > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
> From: Charles Roques > < or > teaches > the style of Orlando Paiva anymore.>> > > Not true. I do and have for years, as also do others outside of Argentina. > > That's my point. To me, Tango is what is danced in BsAs. Sorry, but what's done outside Argentina simply has no relevance to me. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
Charles Another thing I see is a lack of conviction when it comes to learning tango. They think they can watch you tube or take a group class from a second rate self-proclaimed wannabe “tango teacher” and 10 minutes later hit the floor and bust a move. That’s tango today quick and easy no dance skill required or respect for others or self. And on another note having to explain the difference in show tango and salon just proves their lack of training. David In a message dated 12/25/2010 9:48:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, c.roq...@mchsi.com writes: > Not true. I do and have for years, as also do others outside of Argentina. Admittedly and sadly in a minority nowadays but it depends on which circle you travel in. That is the problem on the Tango-L list; people arbitrarily use labels without a knowledge of the history and beginner dancers blindly accept those labels further spreading the confusion. Just because teachers describe and teach the style of Murat and Michelle as tango de salon does not make it correct. The real fault lies with the teachers spreading these labels around. The fact that someone can go to a classic traditional milonga such as Sin Rumbo and be surprised to see close-embrace dancing (something that has been common there for years) says more about their knowledge and experience than it does about the dancing at Sin Rumbo. Charles ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
<> Not true. I do and have for years, as also do others outside of Argentina. Admittedly and sadly in a minority nowadays but it depends on which circle you travel in. That is the problem on the Tango-L list; people arbitrarily use labels without a knowledge of the history and beginner dancers blindly accept those labels further spreading the confusion. Just because teachers describe and teach the style of Murat and Michelle as tango de salon does not make it correct. The real fault lies with the teachers spreading these labels around. The fact that someone can go to a classic traditional milonga such as Sin Rumbo and be surprised to see close-embrace dancing (something that has been common there for years) says more about their knowledge and experience than it does about the dancing at Sin Rumbo. Charles ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
I propose a different way of classifying salon or show tango - looking at what the woman is doing. Is she the one being shown off? Are her ornaments dominating the dance? I know when I perform, my ornaments are bigger. My partner allows me to make them bigger or encourages it. When I'm just doing social salon tango, I don't try to make them more visible. I have in mind Diego DiFalco and Carolina Zokalski who are teaching here on a regular basis. Someone told me that he wasn't going to take their workshops because he thought they were show tango. I explained that they don't do show tango, but salon tango at a really high level. Some of their performances are definitely show tango as they may come from shows that they've done. But you can tell which ones those are. Carolina rarely does big ornaments. In fact, she doesn't ornament much at all. Although she performs, Carolina doesn't consider herself a performance dancer. She's a social dancer. When women do big ornaments that are clearly meant for the audience, that's show tango. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
I agree Jack, that almost no one teaches the style of Orlando Paiva anymore, except his sun Orlando Jr. perhaps. However, that style is a very particular type of Salon. I would place the following teachers in the same category: Javier Rodriguez, Jorge Dispari, Mimi Santapa, Ney Melo. While they may have differences in terms of technique and emphasis, they seem more concerned with body rather than steps. I only have personal experience with Mimi and Ney, however, so perhaps I am mistaken. These teachers almost never lift the feet off the ground for example, which is mainly how I distinguish dancing suitable to the Milonga from dancing suitable for stage. For me, Salon versus milonguero is not the distinguishing factor. Gordon On 12/25/10 12:19 PM, Jack Dylan wrote: > I agree with all that you say. But the point is that almost no one dances or > teaches > the style of Orlando Paiva anymore. > > The dance of Murat and Michelle, on the other hand, is the style that is > danced > by many of today's teachers who describe their style as 'Salon'. > > You're correct ... "It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not intended to > be > danced at a social milonga." But it's being taught as "Social Tango" - > especially > > outside of Argentina and that's the problem. > > Jack > > > >> From: "hbboog...@aol.com" >> >> For those of you that don’t seem to be able to separate salon tango from >> performance tango here are two videos that clearly show the difference. The >> first video is Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland. Orlando was the master >> of smooth elegant tango. Balance, axis, timing and connection. The >> definition of Salon tango is to dance closed and open embrace within the >> music. >> >> Notice how they start off in closed embrace and walk then he gently releases >> her to execute a figure, you barely notice her arm slip from his shoulder to >> his arm and then back again. Their feet are always in contact with the >> floor, they don’t look down at the floor…..blah,blah,blah….the point is if >> you can dance salon tango you now have the skill to effortlessly dance close >> embrace or milonguero tango or whatever you wish to call it. >> >> In the second video Murat and Michelle perform a show tango. With no >> disrespect to Murat and Michelle a large number of tango dancers are taught >> a >> lot of the moves you see in this video. You can see the same open and closed >> embrace being danced but that’s pretty much the only thing the two styles >> have in common. It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not intended to be >> danced at a social milonga. >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in8rG2BHnwo >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrhlyM-_yos >> > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
I agree with all that you say. But the point is that almost no one dances or teaches the style of Orlando Paiva anymore. The dance of Murat and Michelle, on the other hand, is the style that is danced by many of today's teachers who describe their style as 'Salon'. You're correct ... "It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not intended to be danced at a social milonga." But it's being taught as "Social Tango" - especially outside of Argentina and that's the problem. Jack > From: "hbboog...@aol.com" > > For those of you that don’t seem to be able to separate salon tango from > performance tango here are two videos that clearly show the difference. The > first video is Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland. Orlando was the master > of smooth elegant tango. Balance, axis, timing and connection. The > definition of Salon tango is to dance closed and open embrace within the >music. > > Notice how they start off in closed embrace and walk then he gently releases > her to execute a figure, you barely notice her arm slip from his shoulder to > his arm and then back again. Their feet are always in contact with the > floor, they don’t look down at the floor…..blah,blah,blah….the point is if > you can dance salon tango you now have the skill to effortlessly dance close > embrace or milonguero tango or whatever you wish to call it. > > In the second video Murat and Michelle perform a show tango. With no > disrespect to Murat and Michelle a large number of tango dancers are taught > a > lot of the moves you see in this video. You can see the same open and closed > embrace being danced but that’s pretty much the only thing the two styles > have in common. It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not intended to be > danced at a social milonga. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in8rG2BHnwo > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrhlyM-_yos > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
Notice also the following differences between the two videos: in the second, there is the need of cramming in as many different types of steps as possible within the duration of the song. That in itself is not a characteristic of show tango, but is a characteristic of many dancers of the current generation. The older generation execute man variations on a small number of fundamental steps, thus leading to elegance, and continuity. Gordon - Original Message - From: hbboog...@aol.com Date: Saturday, December 25, 2010 10:30 am Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ? To: sopel...@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu > For those of you that don’t seem to be able to separate salon > tango from > performance tango here are two videos that clearly show the > difference. The > first video is Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland. Orlando was > the master > of smooth elegant tango. Balance, axis, timing and connection. The > definition of Salon tango is to dance closed and open embrace > within the music. > Notice how they start off in closed embrace and walk then he > gently releases > her to execute a figure, you barely notice her arm slip from his > shoulder to > his arm and then back again. Their feet are always in contact with > the > floor, they don’t look down at the floor…..blah,blah,blah….the > point is if > you can dance salon tango you now have the skill to effortlessly > dance close > embrace or milonguero tango or whatever you wish to call it. > > In the second video Murat and Michelle perform a show tango. With > no > disrespect to Murat and Michelle a large number of tango dancers > are taught a > lot of the moves you see in this video. You can see the same open > and closed > embrace being danced but that’s pretty much the only thing the two > styles > have in common. It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not > intended to be > danced at a social milonga. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in8rG2BHnwo > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrhlyM-_yos > > > In a message dated 12/25/2010 6:51:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > sopel...@yahoo.com writes: > > Hi David, yes i have lots of opinionsand probably don't > 'know' much > about classes...but im trying to distiguish between what goes on > in a > social > dance and what goes on in a class..they seem to be different.. > like the > 'class' > is about a different dance. > I agree that the leader here pretty much dictates the follow but > there is > a > deadliness to their > > dance that is very disappointing to me...if i were hoping for such > mastery > , > I'd > > quit because I'm simply not interested in this dance. > whereas watching videos from tango and chaos simply AMAZES me! .. > sure, > theyve > been dancing umpteen million years..but can't WE go for expression > and > individuality too? or just cookie cutter dullness... one has to > start > somewhere... maybe im being too harsh but if you read Bora's > blog..it > seems to > me that, she is going > > down the performance path without even knowing it... i say that > 'salon' is > performance..it is only danced in performance dances that i have > ever > seen... > where else is 'salon' danced? ok its a word for the general dance > floor > dance > but i say it is already co opted ...that the non-Nuevo performers > have > already > slipped in their palative > covert- performance dance as THE authentic one..calling it > SALON...it is > NOT the > Social dance... > I want to champion the SOCIAL DANCE as it is danced socially...no > one > seems to > be interested in this. > I was just talking the other day to the wife of Ricardo Bellozo > (of > AbreTango) > they are preparing to return > to BsAs instead of continuing to live and teach in Italy because > stage > tango has > usurped the interest in the social dance there. We are witnessing > the > demise of > the social dance everywhere except in BsAsso far. > sincerely M.. > > ... > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=734224171 > www.youtube.com/user/nacotete > www.tangoandchaos.org > www.theopendoorway.org/audiovisual.html > "The music makes you dance. It is so simple when one gets it. > Connect with > my > partner and then connect with the music, let the music tell me how > to move > my > body rather than me tell my body how to move to the music. With the > right > music > and right partner, I am contented to have jus
Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango Salon or Show ?
For those of you that don’t seem to be able to separate salon tango from performance tango here are two videos that clearly show the difference. The first video is Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland. Orlando was the master of smooth elegant tango. Balance, axis, timing and connection. The definition of Salon tango is to dance closed and open embrace within the music. Notice how they start off in closed embrace and walk then he gently releases her to execute a figure, you barely notice her arm slip from his shoulder to his arm and then back again. Their feet are always in contact with the floor, they don’t look down at the floor…..blah,blah,blah….the point is if you can dance salon tango you now have the skill to effortlessly dance close embrace or milonguero tango or whatever you wish to call it. In the second video Murat and Michelle perform a show tango. With no disrespect to Murat and Michelle a large number of tango dancers are taught a lot of the moves you see in this video. You can see the same open and closed embrace being danced but that’s pretty much the only thing the two styles have in common. It’s Show or Performance tango and it’s not intended to be danced at a social milonga. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in8rG2BHnwo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrhlyM-_yos In a message dated 12/25/2010 6:51:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sopel...@yahoo.com writes: Hi David, yes i have lots of opinionsand probably don't 'know' much about classes...but im trying to distiguish between what goes on in a social dance and what goes on in a class..they seem to be different.. like the 'class' is about a different dance. I agree that the leader here pretty much dictates the follow but there is a deadliness to their dance that is very disappointing to me...if i were hoping for such mastery , I'd quit because I'm simply not interested in this dance. whereas watching videos from tango and chaos simply AMAZES me! .. sure, theyve been dancing umpteen million years..but can't WE go for expression and individuality too? or just cookie cutter dullness... one has to start somewhere... maybe im being too harsh but if you read Bora's blog..it seems to me that, she is going down the performance path without even knowing it... i say that 'salon' is performance..it is only danced in performance dances that i have ever seen... where else is 'salon' danced? ok its a word for the general dance floor dance but i say it is already co opted ...that the non-Nuevo performers have already slipped in their palative covert- performance dance as THE authentic one..calling it SALON...it is NOT the Social dance... I want to champion the SOCIAL DANCE as it is danced socially...no one seems to be interested in this. I was just talking the other day to the wife of Ricardo Bellozo (of AbreTango) they are preparing to return to BsAs instead of continuing to live and teach in Italy because stage tango has usurped the interest in the social dance there. We are witnessing the demise of the social dance everywhere except in BsAsso far. sincerely M.. ... http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=734224171 www.youtube.com/user/nacotete www.tangoandchaos.org www.theopendoorway.org/audiovisual.html "The music makes you dance. It is so simple when one gets it. Connect with my partner and then connect with the music, let the music tell me how to move my body rather than me tell my body how to move to the music. With the right music and right partner, I am contented to have just one tanda a night" -Pedro Sanchez ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
