Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Marek,

On Mon, 25 May 2009 23:13:02 +0200 GMT (26/May/09, 4:13 +0700 GMT),
Marek Mikus wrote:

M>>> But can you trust an antivirus that reports false positives?

>> Once again, this is not a false positive. The scanner engine detects
>> that it can't properly check an executable, and it is rightfully
>> reporting this failure to the user. There's nothing wrong on the part
>> of the scanner.

MM> removing file is not correct behaviour, if scanner can't check the file.

The correct way is to let the AV scan the file, so I agree with Alto.
And you cannot instruct the user how to set their AV if they want to
install an email-client.

MM> What will be next? Antivir will format drive if partition can't be
MM> checked?

AV software will be useless if developers choose to make their
software unscannable. Users will just stop using AV software or - more
likely - choose software that does not cause any problems with the AV
scanner.

Do you really expect the average user to tweak their computer and AV
scanner before installing The Bat!? Don't you think they will rather
choose another email software?

Do you think they will be happy to hear that it is their own fault if
TB! has been deleted after they updated their virus scaner?

Just asking. I wonder why you think this is acceptable.

-- 

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Marek Mikus
Hello all,
Monday, May 25, 2009, Alto Speckhardt wrote:

M>> But can you trust an antivirus that reports false positives?

> Once again, this is not a false positive. The scanner engine detects
> that it can't properly check an executable, and it is rightfully
> reporting this failure to the user. There's nothing wrong on the part
> of the scanner.

removing file is not correct behaviour, if scanner can't check the file.

What will be next? Antivir will format drive if partition can't be
checked?

-- 

Bye

Marek Mikus
Czech support of The Bat!
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Using the best The Bat! 4.1.14.1 (RC1)
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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Alto Speckhardt
Hi,


M> But can you trust an antivirus that reports false positives? 

Once again, this is not a false positive. The scanner engine detects
that it can't properly check an executable, and it is rightfully
reporting this failure to the user. There's nothing wrong on the part
of the scanner.

The fault lies entirely on RIT. They chose a certain strategy, and
this is the result.


-- 
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Alto Speckhardt
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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Marek Mikus
Hello all,
Monday, May 25, 2009, MAU wrote:

> You are right, at least partially. But can you trust an antivirus that
> reports false positives? I use NOD32 and never had this problem.

Miguel, every AV was and will be affected by false positives, NOD32 had
false positive in thebat.exe one year ago. BTW in this case, Adobe Acrobat
was incorrectly detected too...

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread MAU
Hello Thomas,

AF>> As written before: I put thebat.exe in the Exclusion List of Norman
AF>> Antivirus until next .exe or engine update.
>
> What a user-unfriendly thing to say something like that. People who
> download the software and have any kind of AV software running, will
> just abandon the attempt of trying TB!. People who are using TB! and
> suddenly get hit and lose their ability to access their mail, will not
> forget it.
>
> Not my problem, but Ritlabs'. It is really up to them to fix it, if
> they want. If they don't want to and make sufficient profit for their
> survival otherwise, it is up to them. Not my problem really, all we
> can do on this list is to report in order to help.

You are right, at least partially. But can you trust an antivirus that 
reports false positives? I use NOD32 and never had this problem.

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Axel,

On Mon, 25 May 2009 17:12:17 +0200 GMT (25/May/09, 22:12 +0700 GMT),
Axel Finger wrote:

Thanks for your top-posting.

AF> The new Scan Engine 6.01.05 from Norman also detects thebat.exe as a
AF> virus...

Too bad. Not for me, but for Ritlabs. They try to make a living out of
this software, I understand.

AF> As written before: I put thebat.exe in the Exclusion List of Norman
AF> Antivirus until next .exe or engine update.

What a user-unfriendly thing to say something like that. People who
download the software and have any kind of AV software running, will
just abandon the attempt of trying TB!. People who are using TB! and
suddenly get hit and lose their ability to access their mail, will not
forget it.

Not my problem, but Ritlabs'. It is really up to them to fix it, if
they want. If they don't want to and make sufficient profit for their
survival otherwise, it is up to them. Not my problem really, all we
can do on this list is to report in order to help.

-- 

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Thomas.

http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-25 Thread Axel Finger
The new Scan Engine 6.01.05 from Norman also detects thebat.exe as a
virus...

As written before: I put thebat.exe in the Exclusion List of Norman
Antivirus until next .exe or engine update.


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> Freitag, 22. Mai 2009 at 19:42, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

>> I understand what you say, but for the user, Thunderbird, Eudora or
>> even Outlook don't have this problem that TB! has.

> Thunderbird is OpenSource
> Eudora i do not know - free for personal use?
> Outlook is included in Office

> But other Mailclients must have Software Protection against piracy.
> I do understand that, what i do not understand is, that Themida does
> not give their stuff to AV Vendors, that it is scanned to be ok.




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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Paul,

On Fri, 22 May 2009 13:57:13 -0400 GMT (23/May/09, 0:57 +0700 GMT),
Paul Van Noord wrote:

TF>> I understand what you say, but for the user, Thunderbird, Eudora or
TF>> even Outlook don't have this problem that TB! has. I can explain a
TF>> hundred times to him that it is not TB!'s fault, but he will still
TF>> choose to use another email client.

PVN> Why don't you educate him on the quality of AV programs. Send him
PVN> the link to see the list. It may be an eye opener.

Why would I do that? If installing and using TB! requires an education
in AV software first, Ritlabs should bundle that with the product.
However, I guarantee you that people will choose an email client that
does not require this additional hurdle.

PVN> Helping him to get away from McAfee would be a blessing for him
PVN> (and you?).

I'm not using McAffee. And I won't go into a battle which AV software
is better. It is Ritlabs' problem that some AV software labels TB! as
bad and deletes and quarantines it, so Ritlabs must deal with it if
they want. All we can do on this list is make them aware.

-- 

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Thomas.

http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Alto Speckhardt
Hi,


JF> But other Mailclients must have Software Protection against piracy.

It never ceases to amaze me that software companies make war against
their paying customers. Non-paying pirates don't have a problem with
software protection - there are ways. The paying customer does not
have these ways, and he has to suffer from the hostile mechanisms
applied by the developers.

It's as if the developers are actually trying to kill their own
business.

As a matter of fact, they are succeeding.


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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Axel Finger
This time no problem with Norman Antivirus.
But earlier Norman has put some versions of thebat.exe in
quarantine...

My solution:

Put thebat.exe in the Exclusion List of your AV Software until next
AV-update. Or for ever.

-- 
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Axel Finger
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> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

> -- 
> Dwight Corrin
> dcorrin at fastmail.fm
> http://dcorrin.smugmug.com
> http://dcorrin.aminus3.com




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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jens Franik

Freitag, 22. Mai 2009 at 19:42, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> I understand what you say, but for the user, Thunderbird, Eudora or
> even Outlook don't have this problem that TB! has.

Thunderbird is OpenSource
Eudora i do not know - free for personal use?
Outlook is included in Office

But other Mailclients must have Software Protection against piracy.
I do understand that, what i do not understand is, that Themida does
not give their stuff to AV Vendors, that it is scanned to be ok.

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jens Franik

Freitag, 22. Mai 2009 at 19:57, Paul Van Noord wrote:

> Why don't you educate him on the quality of AV programs. Send him the
> link to see the list. It may be an eye opener. Helping him to get away
> from McAfee would be a blessing for him (and you?).

Maybe try AVG?
http://www.grisoft.com

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Oleg Tofan
>  I can explain a
> hundred times to him that it is not TB!'s fault, but he will still
> choose to use another email client.

Of course, the easiest  way is .. Other news are not present?
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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Alto Speckhardt
Hi,


>> Well, not in this case. Redlining Themida is hardly indiscriminate.
>> Themida has a very bad reputation and should not be used by any
>> program.
JS> Does that apply to Inno Setup and NSIS, too? 

No, not that I know of. Both can freely be scanned by any scanning 
engine the user deems fit.


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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Friday, May 22, 2009, 20:45:08, Alto Speckhardt wrote:

> Well, not in this case. Redlining Themida is hardly indiscriminate.
> Themida has a very bad reputation and should not be used by any
> program.

Does that apply to Inno Setup and NSIS, too? Because they're frequent
targets of AV programs.

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Alto Speckhardt
Hi,


JS> AV vendors will sometimes indiscriminantely flag a whole class of
JS> programs as malware [...]

Well, not in this case. Redlining Themida is hardly indiscriminate.
Themida has a very bad reputation and should not be used by any
program.

Its use is another stone in the cargo hold of the sinking ship that
used to be TheBat.


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Re[2]: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Paul Van Noord
5/22/2009  1:54 PM

Hi Thomas,

On 5/22/2009 Thomas Fernandez wrote:

TF> Hello Jernej,

TF> On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:27:47 +0200 GMT (23/May/09, 0:27 +0700 GMT),
TF> Jernej Simončič wrote:

>>> If so, I must stop recommending TB!. It's just not acceptable.

JS>> This is antivirus' program - not TB's program. I'm a developer myself,
JS>> and I have to deal with this regularly - AV vendors will sometimes
JS>> indiscriminantely flag a whole class of programs as malware, and
JS>> there's little you can do about this, especially if you're not their
JS>> customer. Sadly, from my experience, no AV vendor is immune to this,
JS>> though some are worse than others.

TF> I understand what you say, but for the user, Thunderbird, Eudora or
TF> even Outlook don't have this problem that TB! has. I can explain a
TF> hundred times to him that it is not TB!'s fault, but he will still
TF> choose to use another email client.

Why don't you educate him on the quality of AV programs. Send him the
link to see the list. It may be an eye opener. Helping him to get away
from McAfee would be a blessing for him (and you?).
- --
Take Care,
Paul

Voyager v.4.0.34 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.0.2195
No IMAP  OTFE



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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Friday, May 22, 2009, 19:27:47, Jernej Simončič wrote:

> This is antivirus' program - not TB's program.

Grr, I meant problem there, not program...

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Jernej,

On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:27:47 +0200 GMT (23/May/09, 0:27 +0700 GMT),
Jernej Simončič wrote:

>> If so, I must stop recommending TB!. It's just not acceptable.

JS> This is antivirus' program - not TB's program. I'm a developer myself,
JS> and I have to deal with this regularly - AV vendors will sometimes
JS> indiscriminantely flag a whole class of programs as malware, and
JS> there's little you can do about this, especially if you're not their
JS> customer. Sadly, from my experience, no AV vendor is immune to this,
JS> though some are worse than others.

I understand what you say, but for the user, Thunderbird, Eudora or
even Outlook don't have this problem that TB! has. I can explain a
hundred times to him that it is not TB!'s fault, but he will still
choose to use another email client.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Henk M. de Bruijn
On Fri, 22 May 2009, at 17:29:48 [GMT +0200] (which was 17:29 where I
live) Jernej Simončič wrote:

>> McAfee

> Why am I not surprised?

I did not experience any problems with Norton Internet Security...

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Friday, May 22, 2009, 19:07:09, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> If so, I must stop recommending TB!. It's just not acceptable.

This is antivirus' program - not TB's program. I'm a developer myself,
and I have to deal with this regularly - AV vendors will sometimes
indiscriminantely flag a whole class of programs as malware, and
there's little you can do about this, especially if you're not their
customer. Sadly, from my experience, no AV vendor is immune to this,
though some are worse than others.

-- 
< Jernej Simončič ><><><><>< http://eternallybored.org/ >

[ The Bat! 4.1.11.27 on Windows Vista 6.0.6002.Service Pack 2 ]

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello Marek,

On Fri, 22 May 2009 18:55:59 +0200 GMT (22/May/09, 23:55 +0700 GMT),
Marek Mikus wrote:

>> How can this happen?

MM> because Themida protection

I see. My friend lost his TB! from the HD, it might have been this
problem. I reinstalled it for him.

Is this something one can expect when using TheBat!? Will his next
virus database update delete TB! again?

If so, I must stop recommending TB!. It's just not acceptable.

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Marek Mikus
Hello all,
Friday, May 22, 2009, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

m>> According to virustotal.com not only McAffee is affectetd, see report
m>> here:

m>> 
http://www.virustotal.com/de/analisis/d9a4c307c20fff9cf89a7ed81e15e5382900eefc45746f94c8df6116e2832005-1242982538

> How can this happen?

because Themida protection

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Thomas Fernandez
Hello mse,

On Fri, 22 May 2009 11:04:00 +0159 GMT (22/May/09, 16:05 +0700 GMT),
mse wrote:

>>> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
>>> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
>>> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
>>> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

>> what antivirus?

m> According to virustotal.com not only McAffee is affectetd, see report 
m> here:

m> 
http://www.virustotal.com/de/analisis/d9a4c307c20fff9cf89a7ed81e15e5382900eefc45746f94c8df6116e2832005-1242982538

How can this happen?

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Friday, May 22, 2009, 8:50:19, Олег Тофан wrote:

> McAfee

Why am I not surprised?

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jens Franik

Freitag, 22. Mai 2009 at 07:41, Dwight A Corrin wrote:

> W32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected

No Problem here with actual AVG Antivirus (registered), no TBplugin
but Personal Email Scanner activated.

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Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Jens Franik

Freitag, 22. Mai 2009 at 10:07, Dwight Corrin wrote:

> My encounter with their tech support was so absurd, I decided to dump 
>  it, and install something else, as they advised. 
   
That let me remember other companies which also told their customers
to get another better product, if they are not satisfied.

Gosh! I do not remember that companies name...

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Jens Franik
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 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread mse
Hello Marek,

>> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
>> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
>> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
>> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

> what antivirus?

According to virustotal.com not only McAffee is affectetd, see report 
here:

http://www.virustotal.com/de/analisis/d9a4c307c20fff9cf89a7ed81e15e5382900eefc45746f94c8df6116e2832005-1242982538

-- 
Best regards,
mse

Using The Bat! v4.1.14.1 (RC1) on Windows XP 5.1 Build  2600 Service Pack 3






 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Dwight Corrin
 On Friday, May 22, 2009, 3:03:25 AM, Paul R. Zwiers wrote:
  
 > Same here, still using the official latest release of TheBat, no beta. Matter
> of time before McAfee releases a "new" new version of the DAT files. They have
> a reputation to uphold when it comes to false negatives after updating :-)
 
  
 My encounter with their tech support was so absurd, I decided to dump 
 it, and install something else, as they advised. 
  
 --  
 Dwight A. Corrin 
 316.303.9385  phone ahead to fax 
 dcorrin at fastmail.fm 
 photo galleries at http://dcorrin.smugmug.com 
 photo blog at http://dcorrin.aminus3.com 
   http://photos.vfxy.com/photoblogs/5882 
 Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.1.14.1 (RC1) on Windows Vista version 6,0 (Service 
Pack 1)



 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Paul R. Zwiers
Hello Dwight,

Friday, May 22, 2009, 7:41:57 AM, you wrote:

> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

Same here, still using the official latest release of TheBat, no beta. Matter 
of time before McAfee releases a "new" new version of the DAT files. They have 
a reputation to uphold when it comes to false negatives after updating :-)

-- 
Best regards,
 Paulmailto:p...@zeco.nl



 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Dwight Corrin
 On Friday, May 22, 2009, 1:19:57 AM, Marek Mikus wrote:
  
 > what antivirus? 
  
 mcafee 
  
 --  
 Dwight A. Corrin 
 316.303.9385  phone ahead to fax 
 dcorrin at fastmail.fm 
 photo galleries at http://dcorrin.smugmug.com 
 photo blog at http://dcorrin.aminus3.com 
   http://photos.vfxy.com/photoblogs/5882 
 Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.1.14.1 (RC1) on Windows Vista version 6,0 (Service 
Pack 1)



 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Zygmunt Wereszczyński
"Dwight A Corrin" wrote:

> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

I have the same problem with last version of The Bat! and MacAfee antivirus 
software version 3.6.0.603.

--
Best regards,
Zygmunt Wereszczynski



 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-22 Thread Олег Тофан
McAfee
 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


Re: lost tb as virus

2009-05-21 Thread Marek Mikus
Hello all,
Friday, May 22, 2009, Dwight A Corrin wrote:

> Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
> TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
> that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
> the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

what antivirus?

-- 

Bye

Marek Mikus
Czech support of The Bat!
http://www.thebat.cz

Using the best The Bat! 4.1.14.1 (RC1)
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3
with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, AntispamSniper v 3.2.0.6
Notebook Toshiba, Core2 Duo 1.83 GHz, 4 GB RAM


 




 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html


lost tb as virus

2009-05-21 Thread Dwight A Corrin
Evidently my antivirus has auto upgraded, because when I tried to open
TB it had vanished, and when I extracted the latest version, I was told
that it was removed becauseW32/IRCbot.gen.z had been detected. I had
the same problem when I tried to move back to 41141.

-- 
Dwight Corrin
dcorrin at fastmail.fm
http://dcorrin.smugmug.com
http://dcorrin.aminus3.com

-- 
  Dwight A Corrin
  dcor...@fastmail.fm



 Current beta is 4.1.14.1 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html