Re: Replt-To in mailing list (Was: mailto: in Signatures)

[Jast]

Morning Allie Martin,

> Undo is not very practical for all things. Abort ... fine. But how do
> you reverse the damages. I definitely support popup confirmations for
> potentially seriously damaging operations such as deleting accounts,
> folder contents etc. It's not everyday that you do it. I accidentally
> select it more often than I actually do it. Just me the human. :)

 Well I don't :-D
 However, even if I did it, that's what trashcans are for...

 Tell me which of the following situations you'd like to be in:

 - - - situation 1
 
  "Well, I shall delete this folder BECAUSE I CAN. Bwahaha!"
 
  "Wait you, have you thought this through?"
  "Yeah, sure."
  "Are you really, really sure?"
  "YES, now let me pass!"
  "Well, then, do you want to throw it in the recycle bin or really
  really burn it?"
 
 [a few minutes later]
  "Damn,  where  is this mail I wanted to read? In an action of anger I
  just threw away my stuff and now it's gone :-((("

 - - - situation 2
 
  "OoOops, I deleted something, and nobody asked me if I really wanted
  to do it!"

  "Fear not, for I logged your
  actions. All you need is right there, in the trash can!"

 


-- 
+--Jast
|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: DNS problem?

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Michael Heydekamp,

On  Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 19:38:28 [GMT +0100] your local time which was
Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:38:28 [GMT +0700] my local time, you told
to the list:

SH>> Other possibilities, my Name Server didn't receive broadcast from
SH>> your  new  DNS,  see below, the backup of our DNS Server indicate
SH>> different  setting  (perhaps  this  one  your old DNS) which will
SH>> refresh next 3 hours :

MH> [snip]

MH> This all doesn't say too much to me, but what I know is that the 3
MH> hours  you  mentioned above are over since 22 hours and that TBUDL
MH> mail is still coming in through the old server.

Sorry to post too technical before.
>From the data of my last posting mentioned as follow :

- My "cache" DNS Sever still refer your server to mail.airtraffic.de,
  and will refresh next 3 hours.
- Unfortunetely the cache mentioned that the Authorize DNS server for
  your  domain still refer to ns1.internetnamen.de, which will refresh
  next 18 hours, so the new data (still) refer to mail.airtraffic.de.
- After 24 hours (after last refreshing from ns1.internetnamen.de), my
  server  will  refresh  the data again, but (I believe) will refer to
  ecrc.de [141.1.1.1], so the MX record will refer to your new Server.

My  recommendation,  speak to your old ISP to set airtraffic.de domain
as  Non Autoretieve or delete that zone or  wait next 20 hours (I just
check), mailto : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
- syafril -


Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama 
Mailto  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
URL : www.dutaint.co.id  | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241  



I am using The Bat! 1.39 (reg) under
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 built 1381, Service Pack 6

Created : Thursday, January 20, 2000, 9:30:18 (GMT + 07:00)

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Re: DNS problem?

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Michael Heydekamp,

On  Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 19:32:08 [GMT +0100] your local time which was
Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:32:08 [GMT +0700] my local time, you told
to the list:

SH>> Normally,  if we moved domain zone from one Name Server to others
SH>> it  needs  7-days  to  be effective (this is default TTL for BIND
SH>> 8.x; for 4.x or NT DNS the default 3-days).

MH> 7 days? Both my old and my new ISP spoke about 24-48 hours. Why is
MH> it that long?

That's the default setting.
If someone want to move Authoritive DNS Resurce Record from one Server
to  others, generally he will setting down the TTL to (say) 1 hour (as
Steve mentioned), wait for a week than move there.

Other  trick  (to  speed up the process) : delete the domain zone from
old  DNS  Server or (better) set as Non Authoritive as soon as new DNS
Server  active,  so  any  DNS Query for that domain will refer to ROOT
Domain (InterNIC or Country-NIC).

MH> [snip]

SH>> - Name=airtraffic.de
SH>> Type=MX, Class=1, TTL=57194 (15 Hours 53 Minutes 14 Seconds), 
SH>> RDLENGTH=20
SH>> Preference=20, Mail Exchange=avalon.iks-jena.de
MH> ^^^
MH> This *is* my new provider!

SH>> Preference=10, Mail Exchange=excalibur.iks-jena.de
MH>^^^

MH> And this as well. Nonetheless, TBUDL mail (and TBUDL mail only) is still
MH> coming through the old one. Strange, isn't it?

MH> What to do about that?

Nothing,  wait  till DNS Server refresh the data (I can change the the
cache data manually, but it takes time, sorry ).


-- 
- syafril -


Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama 
Mailto  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
URL : www.dutaint.co.id  | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241  



I am using The Bat! 1.39 (reg) under
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 built 1381, Service Pack 6

Created : Thursday, January 20, 2000, 9:32:56 (GMT + 07:00)

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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Steve Lamb,

On  Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 07:10:10 [GMT -0800] your local time which was
Wednesday,  January  19,  2000 22:10:10 [GMT +0700] my local time, you
told to the list:

SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 9:15:28 PM, Syafril wrote:
>> It is take 2 step :-(.

SL> Uhm,  no,  it  doesn't. I bounced this message to myself. X-Sender
SL> was set to me. One step.

I just test again with TB! 1.39 :
Redirect  to  myself  or  any  [EMAIL PROTECTED], no problem and TB!
adding X-Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] as you mentioned.
But  redirect  to  external (internet) user, bounce by my Mail Server,
the snippet log as below :

Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] EHLO SYAFRIL
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] 250-dutaint.co.id Hello SYAFRIL, ESMTP hello!
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] 250-VRFY
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] 250-EXPN
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] 250-ETRN
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:21: [336:2] 250 SIZE
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:22: [336:2] MAIL FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:22: [336:2] 250 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sender accepted
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:22: [336:2] RCPT TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:22: [336:2] Can't accept or relay message.
Thu 2000-01-20 08:48:22: [336:2] Sender not from trusted domain or IP and recipient 
not a valid

And  TB!  error  message  says  :  Message  has  not been sent. Server
reply-<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Recipient unknown.

And this is snippet Server logs if I redirect using Eudora :

Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] HELO syafril
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 250 dutaint.co.id Hello syafril, pleased to meet you
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] RSET
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 250 RSET?  Well, OK.
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] MAIL FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 250 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sender accepted
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] RCPT TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 250 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Recipient ok
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] DATA
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] Storing 
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 354 Enter mail, end with .
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 250 Ok, message saved
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] QUIT
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] 221 See ya in cyberspace
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] SMTP session successful, 1259 bytes transferred.
Thu 2000-01-20 08:58:52: [324:1] Shuffling message(s) into proper queue(s)

Message   header   (from   TB!)   redirect  message  to  my  self  (or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]) :

Using The Bat! (bounce by my Serve):

Received: from SYAFRIL by dutaint.co.id with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.0.0.0k.R) for
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:11:40 +0700
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:11:26 +0700
From: Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.39)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Duta Integrasi Pratama - Indonesia
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Redirect (Bounce)
X-Sender: Support Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Eudora header (pass by my Server)

Received: from syafril by dutaint.co.id with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.0.0.0k.R) for
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:58:52 +0700
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:58:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (by way of Tester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)
Subject: Re: Redirect (Bounce)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It  seems Eudora also change the Reply-To: and X-Return-Path: address,
that's why my server pass through.

If recipient reply this redirect message :
- use The Bat : reply back to Redirector.
- use M$ mail Family : reply to Author (From: Address).

Which one better ?
Any thought ?

-- 
- syafril -


Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama 
Mailto  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
URL : www.dutaint.co.id  | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241  



I am using The Bat! 1.39 (reg) under
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 built 1381, Service Pack 6

Created : Thursday, January 20, 2000, 8:52:08 (GMT + 07:00)

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Re[2]: disableling auto-bcc

[Roel]

 \\\|///
 / ~ _ \
(- O o -)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo---
Hello dMb,

d> When you click on the address button in the editor, there will be a
d> little check box at the bottom that says: Add Secondary Addresses to
d> BCC.  Mine is not selected so it doesn't happen.

i noticed that too... but it only works when selecting contacts from
the editor...

if you select them direct from the adress-book, you don't have that
option...

thanks anyway :-)

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 I was the next door kid's imaginary friend.

 Using The Bat! 1.39 on Windows 98 4.10 build  A 
 with a Intel p200-MMX @ 64 MB & 21Gb Hd

 .oooO
 (   )   Oooo.  
--\ ((   )
   \_)) /
 (_/ 

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Re: disableling auto-bcc

[dMb]

Roel wrote:

> Hello Everybody,

>   when you've got a contact with 2 (or more) email-adresses, everytime
>   you create a new message using the adress-book, the mail is
>   auto-bcc'ed to the second address...

>   how can i disable this?

When you click on the address button in the editor, there will be a
little check box at the bottom that says: Add Secondary Addresses to
BCC.  Mine is not selected so it doesn't happen.

Not sure if this is where you turn it off globally or not, but I don't
have a problem with this as it's never been selected.

HTH,

Derek


-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -'95 Concours
DoD #1359  COG #2103  SR #772  AEE #036025  ASHRAE #5106329  
PADI NRA LF-FL A (American Association Against Acronym Abuse)

Born to be Wild. Sentenced to Sedation.



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Re[2]: Redirect (Bounce)

[Tom Plunket]

SL> Yes, that is the point of bounces.  Further, call the things bounces.
SL> Call kludges headers.  Use , to separate addresses in the header fields, not
SL> ;.

I am SO glad I'm not the only one who thinks these things.

"Kluge" means "hack."  "Kludge" is a misspelling of that word (in its
original hacker definition), but can also be seen as an archaic form
of something that essentially means "hack".  "Kludge" does not, and
never has, meant "header" on the internet.

-tom!

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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Tom Plunket]

DH> Have you tried Alt-J?

Personally can't stand all of the weird spacing, but that has nothing
to do with virtual space:

DH> I use TB for correspondence in both English and Spanish. Spanish
DH> text is generally justified. You can justify any paragraph "de
DH> volada" (on the fly) simply by doing that. This explains the
DH> virtual space issue. You need the blank line to separate
DH> paragraphs.

I can't understand how these two issues would be related in even the
most obtuse way.

However, I would like to be able to configure two spaces after a
period, and I would like the editor to not auto-wrap my current line
until I actually type a non-whitespace character.  To each their own,
but if a period falls in column 69, I hit two spaces and end up one
space into the next line.  Then I hit backspace and sometimes end up
going to the previous line  Some weird things, even when
auto-format is turned off.

DH> Calypso's spell mono-lingual spell checker is as big a joke as
DH> their tech support - when in doubt...

Thanks for the Calypso comments, btw.  I don't care about spell
checkers (never use them), but if you can't get support when you have
problems, well, that's bad.

DH> But: From how many accounts can Calypso send or download from at once?
DH> It's sequential. Not TB! And TB's stable.

ick.

TP Well, you two aren't typical Windows users. As it goes, virtual
TP space has some people who like it and others who don't.

DH> You may have noticed that most TB users and supporters (i.e. AEV) on
DH> TBUDL *aren't your* "typical Windows users", don't share the typical
DH> assumptions held by US "Windows users" and are not even in the U.S.
DH> Welcome to TB!, a refreshing approach to email.

Am I correct in assuming that people think I said that most The Bat!
users are typical Windows users, or that it should most appeal to
these people?  Please, someone, if I did cite me now and then shoot
me, and then drop the freakin' thing because I was only pointing out
that different people had different needs, ESPECIALLY in the target
audience of this software.

TP>> Plus I've never managed to get Emacs to run on this PC.

DH> Does Emacs do what TB! does?

TP>> What else?  Well, it has everything that TB has, but more of it.

DH> Including email?

We were talking about editors, please keep context in mind.

Emacs does do email, fwiw.  Haven't looked at it since 1991, but it
was the most feature-rich mailer at the time that was installed on the
computers that I used.  Can't comment on its current state.

DH> I happen to agree about the key strokes. Ctrl-V in Calypso is
DH> Shift-Ctrl-K in TB! (which takes no more energy for me then the
DH> first), plus you've got Shift-Ctrl-H. I can live with this. TB! is
DH> worth learning. And as stated, key configurations will be optional in
DH> v. 2.

If you were to come to get carpal tunnel syndrome (which has been
extending its talons into me recently), you'll come to appreciate the
difference between pressing ^] for next message vs. 'n' or .

I am so happy someone pointed out that you can use the space bar when
the focus is in the message list pane.  If only there was a way to go back
in the message...  Also noticed that the mousewheel works in the
message view pane even if the focus is not there.  Very trick.  (why
isn't this in any of the documentation that I read?)

DH> but while many of your comments may be helpful, I strongly suggest
DH> you suspend your assumptions to a greater degree and try to
DH> assimilate the approach TB takes to windows email.

In other words "shut the hell up 'til you've been accepted as a long
time user of this program.

I have four words I could say to that, but I won't.  What I will say
is that I will speak what I know and what I feel, and these are things
that WOULD increase The Bat!'s (narrow) market appeal, and I will not
make such outrageous suggestions as adding a file manager or news
reader to the software.  All I want is something that is good at
handling mail, both incoming and outgoing, both reading and writing.

-tom!

-- 
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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Pasquale J. Festa Sr.]

Hello Grant,

January 18, 2000, 8:10:22 AM, you wrote:

GB> I'm a long time user of Agent, and have to admit that this is the
GB> first program to come along in _years_ that turned my head at all! I
GB> really like the functionality of the Bat. However, mail is probably
GB> only 1/4 of my needs. The other 3/4 is newsgroups. Are there any plans
GB> to add newsgroup functionality to the Bat? Is there a timeframe? TIA

GB> grant



Like you, I have been using Agent for news and mail and in all honesty
if  it  rendered HTML that would be all I need I would keep the Bat as
is,  and use Agent just for news.The only time I use Agent for mail is
when  I  send  large attachments (the bat seems to go nuts and hang my
computer).

-- 
Best regards,
 Pasqualemailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Proxy/firewall pass-through?

[Dieter Hummel]

Hello Listmembers,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 13:50:57 [GMT -0900] Hogland, Thomas E. wrote:

> Perhaps  I'm  not  understanding, or didn't ask clearly. Situation is,
> I'm  at  work  behind  firewall.  Trying  to get to my personal e-mail
> account  at my ISP. Ports are open (110, 25, 8080, 23) to use, but I'm
> not  sure  if  this can be configured to use these ports. For example,
> can TB be configured to use an HTTP proxy? Or 110/25? I've tried pine,
> Pegasus, etc and none seem to be able to do this...

Are  you  behind  a _firewall_ or a _proxy_? If you're behind a firewall
with  ports  110  +  25 open for _out_going connex you should be able to
connect  to  your  remote  mailserver.  Anyway it depends on the kind of
firewall  or  proxy  how  to  handle these requests. Try to contact your
sysadmin  or try to get hold on the manuals. There's no general rule how
to  manage  access.  The  mentioned ports represent POP3, SMTP, HTTP and
Telnet - guess configured for _out_going packets.

If  there's a firewall, is it hardware (blackbox), sw based on filtering
at application or packet level - there are several choices :-)

BTW:  I'm  using  a  private LAN with an internal mailserver, a personal
firewall (@Guard) _and_ a proxy (WinGate) - all on one machine and never
had any problems after configuration was done.

Regards
Dieter


|Running TheBat! 1.39 [reg] on  |
|Windows NT v4 Build 1381 Service Pack 6|

Since there's no reason to hide behind an alias in this list, all messages 
originated from a sender w/o a valid realname will be victimized by TB killfilters.

-- 
Dieter Hummel FRA/GER 65931EMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Key: 
http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD93DC23F 

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RE: Proxy/firewall pass-through?

[Hogland, Thomas E.]

I asked:
> > I've checked the FAQ and help and such and can't find this mentioned
> > anyplace. I'm behind a corporate firewall and would like to access an
> > outside mail server. The proxy/firewall does have telnet/http access
> > available, so I'm wondering if there's a way to set TB to use these. 
> 
Dieter replied:
> When  the proxy is properly configured there's no problem (port mapping:
> e.g. POPin 1110/POPout remote serverport 110, SMTPin 1025/SMTPout remote
> server port 25). You should _not_ connect to the remote server directly,
> use  the  proxy's  address  for  that  purpose. Configuration of account
> depends on proxy. Read manual.
> 
Perhaps I'm not understanding, or didn't ask clearly. Situation is, I'm at
work behind firewall. Trying to get to my personal e-mail account at my ISP.
Ports are open (110, 25, 8080, 23) to use, but I'm not sure if this can be
configured to use these ports. For example, can TB be configured to use an
HTTP proxy? Or 110/25? I've tried pine, Pegasus, etc and none seem to be
able to do this... 

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Re: Proxy/firewall pass-through?

[Dieter Hummel]

Hello Listmembers,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 08:46:38 [GMT -0900] Hogland, Thomas E. wrote:

> I've checked the FAQ and help and such and can't find this mentioned
> anyplace. I'm behind a corporate firewall and would like to access an
> outside mail server. The proxy/firewall does have telnet/http access
> available, so I'm wondering if there's a way to set TB to use these. 

When  the proxy is properly configured there's no problem (port mapping:
e.g. POPin 1110/POPout remote serverport 110, SMTPin 1025/SMTPout remote
server port 25). You should _not_ connect to the remote server directly,
use  the  proxy's  address  for  that  purpose. Configuration of account
depends on proxy. Read manual.

Regards
Dieter


|Running TheBat! 1.39 [reg] on |
|Windows NT v4 Build 1381 Service Pack 6|

Since there's no reason to hide behind an alias in this list, all messages 
originated from a sender w/o a valid realname will be victimized by TB killfilters.

-- 
Dieter Hummel FRA/GER 65931EMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Key: 
http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD93DC23F 

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export function problem

[István Szendrő]

Hello fellow TBUDL members,

When using the EXPORT function some of my mailboxes don't get exported
correctly (some or all messages missing in the export).

I get this irrespective of export type (MSG files or UNIX mailboxes).

Also executing the same command singly or as part of a batch yields
different results for the same mailbox.

Selecting a mailbox and exporting it from the menu works fine.

All commands in the batch use this syntax:

/EXPORTU="";F="";DIR=""

The batch is called from a shortcut that looks like this:

"" /NOLOGO /MINIMIZE /BATCH:"" /SMARTEXIT

Any help greatly appreciated.

-- 
Best regards,
 István

Using The Bat! v1.39
on Windows 98 v4.10 Build 1998

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Re: Possible filter bug?

[Dieter Hummel]

Hello Listmembers,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 09:27:28 [GMT +0100] Ralf Buschmann wrote:

> I have set up a filter that is supposed to move undeliverable mails that
> bounce back to me to a special folder. The filter is on top of my filter
> list. The only filter rule I have set up for this filter is

In  general  you  should  use  such  kinda  filters at the _end_ of your
filterlist. I've set up ~70 (incoming) filter rules and the last catches
all  (unwanted)  mail  which  is  left over - and trashes them. It works
perfectly.

Regards
Dieter


|Running TheBat! 1.39 [reg] on  |
|Windows NT v4 Build 1381 Service Pack 6|

Since there's no reason to hide behind an alias in this list, all messages 
originated from a sender w/o a valid realname will be victimized by TB killfilters.

-- 
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PGP Key: 
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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 19 Jan 00, at 22:54, Thomas Fernandez wrote
about "Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 In":


> With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
> messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the
> messages into the folders where you want to store them. Virtual
> folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

Relax and wait for ver. 2;-) Virtual folders _will_ be there... At least, Stefan has 
told me so last Saturday;-)) Frankly, I've exploited again my advantage over all 
of you (native Russian-speaking;-))) Stef said "wow, seems it was *me* who 
first invented the TEMP panel and implemented it in DN many years ago!" (in 
my own somewhat shortened translation)...



-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
  substance.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
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Re: adress-book memo-field

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 19 Jan 00, at 16:53, Roel wrote
about "adress-book memo-field":

>   in my adress-book, a few of my contact (not all, that makes it so
>   strange) have this in the other -> memo-field:
> 
>   
Binary

> 
>   anyone got any idea what this is & how it got there?

It's been there since you imported the addressbook. TB didn't recognize *all* 
of the information your previous MUA had put there, and all it didn't recognize 
it has put to the Memo;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  History repeats itself. That's one of the things wrong with
  history.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 


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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 11:41:45 AM, Wolfgang wrote:
> IMO the term 'external editor' is a little misleading.

Nope.  Is it external to TB!?  Then it is an external editor.

> It is possible to integrate such a component written by another company
> quite smoothly, as Acrobat shows with its reader. If the editor is provided
> e.g. as a DLL, it could appear as integral part of TB.

Now do that with an editor that is multiplatofmr.

> That's the way I would like to see it.

Not me.  Severely limits your choices as to what you can use.  Maybe on
BeOS where they encourage such things, but not in Windows.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi Steve,

SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:40:09 AM, Marck wrote:
>> Of course the external editor option looks more attractive all the time.

SL> OF course it does.

IMO the term 'external editor' is a little misleading.
It is possible to integrate such a component written
by another company quite smoothly, as Acrobat shows
with its reader. If the editor is provided e.g. as a
DLL, it could appear as integral part of TB.

That's the way I would like to see it.

-- 
Regards,
Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.39 under Windows 95 4.0 Build   B
in Darmstadt, Germany,
on a 166Mhz Cyrix, 128MB SDRAM, half SCSI system ;-)

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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:40:46 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> I don't know what *virtually* viewing messages means. I always
> *really* view my messages. 

When you use the search facility to run search across all accounts, it
displays all the matches in it's viewer. You are able to read the messages
right there, reply to them, forward them, move them etc., and yet, they
are still all very much in their original locations and have not been
moved to one spot. A virtual folder is similar. It allows you to view and
manage messages, which are in different locations, from a central point
without actually moving them there.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list" From Thomas 
Fernandez:

TF> With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
TF> messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the
TF> messages into the folders where you want to store them. Virtual
TF> folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

What you describe here is possible now.

-- 
- Nick

Nick Danger's Complimentary Curse <(©¿©)>:
May 1,000 erudite cleaners forget to wipe in your pituitary gland.

Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re: DNS problem?

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Michael,

On  19 January 2000  at  19:38:28 GMT +0100 (which was 18:38 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

>>>This is last info from our DNS (who the List refer to).

SH>> Other possibilities, my Name Server didn't receive broadcast from
SH>> your new DNS, see below, the backup of our DNS Server indicate
SH>> different setting (perhaps this one your old DNS) which will refresh
SH>> next 3 hours :

MH> [snip]

MH> This all doesn't say too much to me, but what I know is that the 3 hours
MH> you mentioned above are over since 22 hours and that TBUDL mail is still
MH> coming in through the old server.


Well,   I   just   dived  in  and  removed  the  IP  cache  entry  for
airtraffic.de, which still had 21 hours to live (out of about 7 days).
Shall we see if that sorts out the problem?

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 
-
Using The Bat! 1.39
under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  

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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:17:07 +0100, Jast wrote:

>> Ah, you mean the same as the "virtual folders" discussed earlier, with
>> the option "show all new messages here".

>  Well, the mail ticker can do it, but I don't like it :-(

Your car will move 2 tons of sand from a to b .. (after 20 trips).

*in the same breath*

The mail ticker will do it. :)

>  Actually,  the  sense  of  virtual  folders would be that you *don't*
>  have to filter  your  messages when they are read but instead you do it
>  the other way around:  Filter  the messages when they come in, and then
>  look at them in one place, while storing them in another.

Exactly.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
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--†-
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Re: Replt-To in mailing list (Was: mailto: in Signatures)

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:14:24 +0100, Jast wrote:

[..snip..]

>  Bleh. I don't like these confirmation popup boxes. They "never saved my
>  ass". What  I  do  like  though is the option to undo and abort
>  operations.

Undo is not very practical for all things. Abort ... fine. But how do
you reverse the damages. I definitely support popup confirmations for
potentially seriously damaging operations such as deleting accounts,
folder contents etc. It's not everyday that you do it. I accidentally
select it more often than I actually do it. Just me the human. :)

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
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--†-
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Re: DNS problem?

[Michael Heydekamp]

Dear Syafril,

on Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 21:10, you wrote:

>>This is last info from our DNS (who the List refer to).

SH> Other possibilities, my Name Server didn't receive broadcast from
SH> your new DNS, see below, the backup of our DNS Server indicate
SH> different setting (perhaps this one your old DNS) which will refresh
SH> next 3 hours :

[snip]

This all doesn't say too much to me, but what I know is that the 3 hours
you mentioned above are over since 22 hours and that TBUDL mail is still
coming in through the old server.


Best regards,

-- 
Michael Heydekamp
AIR TRAFFIC Euro Charter GmbH
eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.airtraffic.de

*--*
  Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 
  on a PIII/450, 128MB RAM, 10GB Harddisk
  in a NetWare 3.12 network environment
*--*

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Re: DNS problem?

[Michael Heydekamp]

Dear Syafril,

on Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 20:26, you wrote:

SH> Normally, if we moved domain zone from one Name Server to others it
SH> needs 7-days to be effective (this is default TTL for BIND 8.x; for
SH> 4.x or NT DNS the default 3-days).

7 days?  Both my old and my new ISP spoke about 24-48 hours.  Why is it
that long?

SH> Our server will check to *Authorize* DNS for your domain, and will
SH> refresh as mentioned on TTL setting of that DNS.

SH> This is last info from our DNS (who the List refer to).

[snip]

SH> - Name=airtraffic.de
SH> Type=MX, Class=1, TTL=57194 (15 Hours 53 Minutes 14 Seconds), 
SH> RDLENGTH=20
SH> Preference=20, Mail Exchange=avalon.iks-jena.de
^^^
This *is* my new provider!

SH> Preference=10, Mail Exchange=excalibur.iks-jena.de
   ^^^

And this as well. Nonetheless, TBUDL mail (and TBUDL mail only) is still
coming through the old one. Strange, isn't it?

What to do about that?


Best regards,

-- 
Michael Heydekamp
AIR TRAFFIC Euro Charter GmbH
eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.airtraffic.de

*--*
  Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 
  on a PIII/450, 128MB RAM, 10GB Harddisk
  in a NetWare 3.12 network environment
*--*

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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:54:17 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote:

[..snip..]

> With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
> messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the
> messages into the folders where you want to store them. Virtual
> folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

Uhm no. Virtual folders are just that  virtual. You can't
physically filter messages and/or store messages in a virtual folder. If
you could then it would no longer be virtual.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:13:30 -0600, Douglas Hinds wrote:

[..snip..]

> You may have noticed that most TB users and supporters (i.e. AEV) on
> TBUDL *aren't your* "typical Windows users", don't share the typical
> assumptions held by US "Windows users" and are not even in the U.S.
> Welcome to TB!, a refreshing approach to email.

I give that two thumbs up. 

-- 
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--†-
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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 9:03:46 AM, Thomas wrote:
> No. Constructive means you tell them what to do instead, ranging from
> "you'd better step back" to "this doesn't solve your problems - you'd
> rather see a shrink".

"Don't step off that cliff" is telling them what to do instead.  "Don't
use by way of" is telling them what to do instead.  IE, don't do it is the
something else.  How hard is that to grasp?

SL>> Do *NOT* do it.  That is constructive.

> 

See above.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Proxy/firewall pass-through?

[Hogland, Thomas E.]

I've checked the FAQ and help and such and can't find this mentioned
anyplace. I'm behind a corporate firewall and would like to access an
outside mail server. The proxy/firewall does have telnet/http access
available, so I'm wondering if there's a way to set TB to use these. 

TIA
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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Jast]

Morning Thomas Fernandez,

> Ah, you mean the same as the "virtual folders" discussed earlier, with
> the option "show all new messages here".

 Well, the mail ticker can do it, but I don't like it :-(

> With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
> messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the messages
> into the folders where you want to store them.

 Actually,  the  sense  of  virtual  folders would be that you *don't* have to
 filter  your  messages when they are read but instead you do it the other way
 around:  Filter  the messages when they come in, and then look at them in one
 place, while storing them in another.

> Virtual folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

 YES. I WANT VIRTUAL FOLDERS
 Oops, sorry :-)

-- 
+--Jast
|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: Replt-To in mailing list (Was: mailto: in Signatures)

[Jast]

Morning Allie Martin,

> Er. *Allie clears his throat* Objection sire :-D
> 
> That pop-up confirmation has saved my ass on many an occasion when I
> accidentally hit the delete key or selected the wrong menu option with
> both keyboard and mouse.

 Bleh. I don't like these confirmation popup boxes. They "never saved my ass".
 What  I  do  like  though is the option to undo and abort operations. This is
 completely unobtrusive and more effective. Instead of confirmations, I'd like
 all  delete  dialogs killed and replaced by an undo option in TB. It works in
 general Windows... (Recycle Bin|Properties|Display Delete confirmation dialog
 box in case you didn't know)


-- 
+--Jast
|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Thomas,

On  19 January 2000  at  01:03:46 GMT +0800 (which was 17:03 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

TF> (We're OT again. Marck is selecting the knife to kill the horse.)

Still  allowing a few final breaths to see if there *is* a forthcoming
"constructive"  work-around  suggestion  (like e.g. manually or via QT
modifying  the subject to reflect the routing) before wielding the big
old cull-hammer.

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 
-
Using The Bat! 1.39
under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  

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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Steve,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:07:52 -0800 GMT (19.01.2000, 23:07 +0800 GMT),
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> No. Constructive means you have an idea what to "do", not what to "not
>> do".

SL> No.  Constructive means pointing out when people are about to step off a
SL> cliff and fall a great distance to very large and sharp rocks at the bottom..

No. Constructive means you tell them what to do instead, ranging from
"you'd better step back" to "this doesn't solve your problems - you'd
rather see a shrink". If memory serves right (and it has been a few
years): Construere, construvi, constructum (lat.) = to build. A
building, an idea, a perspective; something "new" as output, if you so
want, not just halting the current process. :-P

(We're OT again. Marck is selecting the knife to kill the horse.)

SL> Further, call the things bounces. Call kludges headers. Use , to
SL> separate addresses in the header fields, not ;.

No disagremeent here. I used Redirect in the subject line, as this is
the word I hear most often; I also put the word Bounce in there, as I
know it is the correct term.

>> So, if you don't like "by way of", please make a constructive
>> suggestion.

SL> Do *NOT* do it.  That is constructive.



SL> Don't like it, read the effing RFCs. Amazingly, a lot of the
SL> problems you're grappling with have been solved for decades now.

This one hasn't: I need the final recipient to know that it was me who
bounced the msg to him. Considering that he doesn't see the X-Sender
header (In the test I just conducted, I couldn't find the "Resent-"
header as mentioned in the RFC), how would he know? Maybe this wasn't
considered 18 years ago.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Douglas,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:57:20 -0600 GMT (19.01.2000, 23:57 +0800 GMT),
Douglas Hinds wrote:

TF While reading mail: I switch accounts with the mouse.

DH> You have to look for it.

And you don't have to look at a pop-up window?

TF>> I hope you don't mean something *always* visable.

DH> I do.

My sincere objection. ;-)

-- 

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Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
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Re[2]: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Thomas & all fellow TBUDL members,

Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 8:54:17 AM, Thomas wrote in response to
my saying:

DH>> Right. One for each account. Then you need macros for each and
DH>> every signature / active account combination.

TF> Actually, if you click on "share with other accounts", you can use
TF> QT's across all accounts. You will need one per sig, of course.

Of course. I will have to do that.  I'm working on accepting my having
to doing it and am very close to that.

TF>>> If you mean at time of creation, try Option/Active Account in the
TF>>> editor window.

Right.

TF>>> While reading mail: I switch accounts with the mouse.
TF>>> ;-)

You have to look for it.

DH>> This doesn't compare with the speed and ease of what I'm suggesting,
DH>> which is also something VISABLE.

TF> To change the active account now requires three mouseclicks. ...
TF> Big difference? Or are you asking for a shortcut to Options/Active
TF> Account?

Right. A visible window. Same goes for a global filter manager and a
global ticker manager. All the focus on separate folders w/ no way to
get to them except by navigating the accounts pane is very time
consuming, particularly when the inboxes are rather full. TBUDL is
filtered actively in to a folder that now has 4,110 messages, 3,346 of
which are unread. The result is that lots of days I don't even open it
(no time).

TF> I hope you don't mean something *always* visable.

I do. It's a very small window and appropriately placed, is is the
signature window which you can give names for.

TF>>> I don't know what *virtually* viewing messages means. I always
TF>>> *really* view my messages. 

DH>> Try doing a search on all accounts for something found in several. The
DH>> search results show what "*virtually* viewing messages means". This
DH>> could be available for all incoming messages if an "account" column
DH>> was added as an option (all columns are now selectable as is)

TF> Ah, you mean the same as the "virtual folders" discussed earlier, with
TF> the option "show all new messages here".

I dunno, cause I haven't been able to keep up up with TBUDL - sounds
like it though.

TF> With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
TF> messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the
TF> messages into the folders where you want to store them. Virtual
TF> folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

Correctisimo. The rest of it is installing the windows in the part of
my brain that deals with TB and changing them to unseen windows
activated by commands, unless RITlabs picks up the concept first.


Best regards,

Douglas

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Claude]

à  : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
de : Claude (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
le 18/01/2000, 23:36:39, heure française.
Objet : suggestion- / wish-list

Bonjour TBUDL,

En réponse à  message du 18/01/2000, 


SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:40:09 AM, Marck wrote:
>> Of course the external editor option looks more attractive all the time.

SL> OF course it does.  You'd think with Unix folks building on pushing 30
SL> years of computing experience they'd get a few things right.  I still find it
SL> amusing that a lot of the things that Microsoft and Mac are dealing with now
SL> the 'nix crowd solved a good decade ago.

SL> And people wonder why I say those two, especially Microsoft, harm
SL> consumers.  ;)

SL>>> I  believe you're missing the point of having total control.

>> Perhaps, but it's not the point I was making.

SL> The point you made wasn't relevant.  ;)

>> With virtual space the four spaces are virtually there anytime you want.

SL> Nope.

SL> *Steve bounced on the END key until his keyboard breaks, darned thing
SL> doesn't go out the 4 spaces.*

>> (Okay, I accept that use of the End key for positioning to the point
>> beyond the four spaces has now been killed and that part of your original
>> intent has been wrecked - but those of us with multiple tentacles can reach
>> for the mouse and be blissfully unaware that the four spaces ever went
>> anywhere).

SL> *Steve then points out that in some editors that isn't needed since it
SL> retains the column that the cursor was last in, even on short lines, even if
SL> it positions the cursor on column 1 for the one line between.*  :)

>> OTOH, at least they're not cluttering bandwidth when you accidently forget
>> to go back to add what it was you were adding when you remembered something
>> else further back... etc.

SL> Feh.

SL> :%s/[^-- ]\s+$//g
SL> (If memory serves)




-- 
Cordialement,

Claude.
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

La pensée du jour :
Who rules the rules ? - Maître Claude.


==
Message d'origine :

le 18/01/2000, à 21:39 :
Objet : suggestion- / wish-list



SL> ==

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adress-book memo-field

[Roel]

Hello Everybody,

  in my adress-book, a few of my contact (not all, that makes it so
  strange) have this in the other -> memo-field:

  
Binary


  anyone got any idea what this is & how it got there?
  (i've never used the memo-field untill now, so tb! must have putted
  it there...)
  or is it some kind of bug?
  
-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 Welcome to the Church of the Holy Cabbage. Lettuce pray

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Re[2]: disableling auto-bcc

[Roel]

 \\\|///
 / ~ _ \
(- O o -)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo---
Hello Jast,

J>  If sending only to the first is what you want, put the other addresses in the
J>  Memo field of the Other tab.

good idea :-)
didn't think of that...

J>  What  I'd  want  is  making  the addresses selectable individually. or making
J>  auto-bcc an option for every entry... :-)

same here...

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roel  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ** Speelplein Aboe http://surf.to/aboe **

 System halted. There is NOTHING you can do.

 Using The Bat! 1.39 on Windows 98 4.10 build  A 
 with a Intel p200-MMX @ 64 MB & 21Gb Hd

 .oooO
 (   )   Oooo.  
--\ ((   )
   \_)) /
 (_/ 

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Re: Error Messages

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 6:14:29 AM, Thomas wrote:
> Just thought of something: would it help if I telnet into that account
> and type QUIT at the unix prompt? (This may sound like a silly
> question)

No, different connection.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 11:14:54 PM, Oleg wrote:
> Ïîæèâåì  --  óâèäèì.  We'll live -- we'll see. Real life is not always
> what  a  child  of  5 will grasp. I have strong doubts that this ideal
> scheme is implementable in real life.

No, it isn't.  But then considering the concept, this is one case when it
is.  As for the ideal why not?  It has already been implemented several times.
Both Pine and PMMail come to mind.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:46:30 PM, Thomas wrote:
> What's the standard: If redirecting, does the X-Sender have to stay
> intact? RFC#? In that case, Outlook is non-standard and this problem
> is not a TB problem. Otherwise, if - as Syafril wished - the X-Sender
> can be changed, there is no point in knowing.

No.  X-Sender does not stay intact.  It is a X header, there is no
standard governing X headers AFAIK, other than 822 stating that X headers are
unregulated.  ;)

X-Sender has traditionally been the last person or entity to send the
message.  So me sending to the list would have X-Sender set to me.  From the
list to everyone else has X-Sender set to the list.

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: disableling auto-bcc

[Jast]

Morning Roel,

> too bad: that only creates massive overheads in the adressbook...
> also: keeping info up to date can be hell...
> 
> oh well, i'll live :-)

 If sending only to the first is what you want, put the other addresses in the
 Memo field of the Other tab.

 What  I'd  want  is  making  the addresses selectable individually. or making
 auto-bcc an option for every entry... :-)


-- 
+--Jast
|on Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
:with The Bat! 1.39



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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:22:56 PM, Allie wrote:
> Steve quite rightfully said that it's a bad idea. The message header could
> become filled with 'by way of's ... ' in a message repeatedly redirected.

Not could, does.  At my work nearly everyone uses Eudora.  We bounce
messages from common departmental mailboxes to individual mailboxes and so on.
I get the damnedable by way of on everything.  Furthermore it is, rightfully,
not removed upon reply so when you reply to someone they know they've been
handed off and how many times unless you remember to manually remove it.  I've
also had messages go from websupport (department box) to webservices
(department box) to me (private) to a coworker in a different department
(private) to one of his coworkers (private) to get done.  We don't need 5 "by
way of's" cluttering up the headers.  Also, at that length, you're running the
risk of hitting the limit on header length.  We do this on a daily basis
because aside from the by way of, it is a perfectly serviceable system.

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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 9:15:28 PM, Syafril wrote:
> It is take 2 step :-(.

Uhm, no, it doesn't.  I bounced this message to myself.  X-Sender was set
to me.  One step.

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Re: Redirect (Bounce)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 8:11:29 PM, Thomas wrote:
> No. Constructive means you have an idea what to "do", not what to "not
> do".

No.  Constructive means pointing out when people are about to step off a
cliff and fall a great distance to very large and sharp rocks at the bottom..
IE, pointing out when they are clearly going to do something wrong and
preventing them from doing so means you are preventing harm and, thus,
suggesting something good.

> our suggestion for redirect behaviour would be to just leave the from addr
> intact?

Yes, that is the point of bounces.  Further, call the things bounces.
Call kludges headers.  Use , to separate addresses in the header fields, not
;.

> So you actually want to hide the fact that you are the one who
> actually sent this mail to the final recipient?

*sigh*

RFC822, published in 1982, section 4.2

 4.2.  FORWARDING

  Some systems permit mail recipients to  forward  a  message,
 retaining  the original headers, by adding some new fields.  This
 standard supports such a service, through the "Resent-" prefix to
 field names.

  Whenever the string "Resent-" begins a field name, the field
 has  the  same  semantics as a field whose name does not have the
 prefix.  However, the message is assumed to have  been  forwarded
 by  an original recipient who attached the "Resent-" field.  This
 new field is treated as being more recent  than  the  equivalent,
 original  field.   For  example, the "Resent-From", indicates the
 person that forwarded the message, whereas the "From" field indi-
 cates the original author.

  Use of such precedence  information  depends  upon  partici-
 pants'  communication needs.  For example, this standard does not
 dictate when a "Resent-From:" address should receive replies,  in
 lieu of sending them to the "From:" address.

 Note:  In general, the "Resent-" fields should be treated as con-
taining  a  set  of information that is independent of the
set of original fields.  Information for  one  set  should
not  automatically be taken from the other.  The interpre-
tation of multiple "Resent-" fields, of the same type,  is
undefined.

  In the remainder of this specification, occurrence of  legal
 "Resent-"  fields  are treated identically with the occurrence of
 fields whose names do not contain this prefix.

Please not that in the first paragraph it says "retaining the original
headers".  This has become known as bouncing (*NOT* "redirecting which is a
Eudora abomination) while forwarding means the headers change and the body of
the message contains the original message with an optional note attached.

Do I mean to bounce a message without an indication of where it came from?
No.  Am I saying do it the way the 18 year old RFC states and has been done by
damn near every other client *EXCEPT* for the broken Eudora during those 18
years?  Yes.

I didn't think I'd have to point this out considering the mailer should be
RFC compliant in the first place.  That implies the authors have actually read
the RFCs.

> So, if you don't like "by way of", please make a constructive
> suggestion.

Do *NOT* do it.  That is constructive.  Don't like it, read the effing
RFCs.  Amazingly, a lot of the problems you're grappling with have been solved
for decades now.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Douglas,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:36:11 -0600 GMT (19.01.2000, 22:36 +0800 GMT),
Douglas Hinds wrote:

TF>> You can do that with quick templates.

DH> Right. One for each account. Then you need macros for each and every
DH> signature / active account combination. Are you kidding?

Actually, if you click on "share with other accounts", you can use
QT's across all accounts. You will need one per sig, of course.

TF>> If you mean at time of creation, try Option/Active Account in the
TF>> editor window. While reading mail: I switch accounts with the mouse.
TF>> ;-)

DH> This doesn't compare with the speed and ease of what I'm suggesting,
DH> which is also something VISABLE.

To change the active account now requires three mouseclicks. Given the
fact that I use it rather seldomly, that's easy. If you want a pop-up
window, that would mean one key-combo to bring up the window, and one
mouseclick to choose. Big difference? Or are you asking for a shortcut
to Options/Active Account?

I hope you don't mean something *always* visable.

TF>> I don't know what *virtually* viewing messages means. I always
TF>> *really* view my messages. 

DH> Try doing a search on all accounts for something found in several. The
DH> search results show what "*virtually* viewing messages means". This
DH> could be available for all incoming messages if an "account" column
DH> was added as an option (all columns are now selectable as is)

Ah, you mean the same as the "virtual folders" discussed earlier, with
the option "show all new messages here".

With virtuals folder (if we get them), you could filter all incoming
messages into one. The you could have "read"-filters sorting the
messages into the folders where you want to store them. Virtual
folders should be in the wishlist, I think.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 7:48:38 PM, Thomas wrote:
> As a programmer, I don't understand why you would not appreciate the
> virual space

Sure, space over to where I want, go up, add code in another block, drop
back down, spaces are gone.  :)

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re[2]: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Thomas & all fellow TBUDL members,

Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 7:40:46 AM, Thomas wrote in response to
my saying:

DH>> .. when composing I do want the multiple signatures available
DH>> from a pop up window,

TF> You can do that with quick templates.

Right. One for each account. Then you need macros for each and every
signature / active account combination. Are you kidding?

DH>> the active account also available from a pop up window

TF> If you mean at time of creation, try Option/Active Account in the
TF> editor window. While reading mail: I switch accounts with the mouse.
TF> ;-)

This doesn't compare with the speed and ease of what I'm suggesting,
which is also something VISABLE.

DH>> and an optional "account column" available in the message list
DH>> pane so messages from all accounts can be *virtually" viewed on
DH>> arrival, regardless of their home folder.

TF> I don't know what *virtually* viewing messages means. I always
TF> *really* view my messages. 

Try doing a search on all accounts for something found in several. The
search results show what "*virtually* viewing messages means". This
could be available for all incoming messages if an "account" column
was added as an option (all columns are now selectable as is)

DH>> TB needs an online off line button, to activate / deactivate the get
DH>> mail every x minutes option.

TF> I support this wish. ;-)

OK, I'm glad we agree. I am not trashing TB, but TB can be improved
w/o losing it's basic strengths and qualities. (i.e I am happy with
*current* html support, although I would like to edit and highlight
passages in incoming mail sometimes).

DH>> I just went up and modified the subject header. Tab brought me right
DH>> back to this line.  That's TB.

TB rules.

Saludos.

Douglas

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Re: Error Messages

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Oleg,

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:13:21 +0400 GMT (18.01.2000, 19:13 +0800 GMT),
Oleg Zalyalov wrote:

TF>> However, how do I send this QUIT command to the server.

OZ> No  way  in  this  case.  You  have to wait those 10 minutes. No other
OZ> solution possible.

Just thought of something: would it help if I telnet into that account
and type QUIT at the unix prompt? (This may sound like a silly
question)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Right Click Menu Oddity

[Nick Danger]

Not sure if this really classifies as a bug or more an abnormality but
I noticed the right click C&P menu is available in normal template
editing but unavailable in quick template editing.

While it's no big deal as the keyboard commands still work just
thought I'd bring it up.  (better that then lunch, eh?)

-- 
- Nick

Nick Danger's Complimentary Curse <(©¿©)>:
May an infinite number of anorexic winos seek refuge between your teeth.

Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re: Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Douglas,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:13:30 -0600 GMT (19.01.2000, 21:13 +0800 GMT),
Douglas Hinds wrote:

DH> On the other hand, when composing I do want the multiple signatures
DH> available from a pop up window,

You can do that with quick templates.

DH> the active account also available from a pop up window

If you mean at time of creation, try Option/Active Account in the
editor window. While reading mail: I switch accounts with the mouse.
;-)

DH> and an optional "account column" available in the message list
DH> pane so messages from all accounts can be *virtually" viewed on
DH> arrival, regardless of their home folder.

I don't know what *virtually* viewing messages means. I always
*really* view my messages. 

DH> TB needs an online off line button, to activate / deactivate the get
DH> mail every x minutes option.

I support this wish. ;-)

DH> I just went up and modified the subject header. Tab brought me right
DH> back to this line.  That's TB.

:-))

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366 Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Internal Editor + TB! v 1.39 Installation & wish list

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Tom & all other fellow TBUDL members,

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 2:20:10 PM, Tom wrote in response to Mark's saying:

MDP (it's only one additional keystroke after all.

TP> I'm getting used to The Bat!'s virtual space, I still don't like it.

First of All: *Does upgrading from v. 1.38e to v. 1.39 involve more
than switching the .exe file? (as in the last 2 previous upgrades - the
last of which also had a new help file if I remember correctly). OK,
I'll check the readme as soon as I unzip it.

Now - On to the "virtual space" issue:

As a Calypso purple heart refugee I miss a few of it's slick tricks
BUT, aside from the 1000%+ better support available from both Ritlabs
and TBUDL (mcsdallas will just look at, if not insult you - their
support people are as ignorant as they come), notice that I left a
black line between the "On to the "virtual space* issue:" and this
one. That's because I understand, accept and appreciate the paradigm
shift. Why? read on:

TP> I keep using, and I like, the reformat option, Alt-L.

Have you tried Alt-J? I use TB for correspondence in both English and
Spanish. Spanish text is generally justified. You can justify any
paragraph "de volada" (on the fly) simply by doing that. This explains
the virtual space issue. You need the blank line to separate
paragraphs. More that one space between words within a paragraph will
be added or removed automatically, depending on the block
configuration you choose (If you've tried Alt+L or J on a multi-line
signature you know what I mean).

Calypso's spell mono-lingual spell checker is as big a joke as their
tech support - when in doubt, I had to copy & paste to a WP or
Netscape Messenger. TB!'s spell checker I would kill for - botjh the
English and the Spanish dictionaries are quite good, easily updatable
(i.e. you can add words easily) and it let's you know what's happening
at a glance, as you go - it's not obtrusive and it let's you keep
working, but you KNOW the word's not in the dic.

On the other hand, when composing I do want the multiple signatures
available from a pop up window, the active account also available from
a pop up window and an optional "account column" available in the
message list pane so messages from all accounts can be *virtually"
viewed on arrival, regardless of their home folder.

TB needs an online off line button, to activate / deactivate the get
mail every x minutes option.

Ability to edit incoming mail is sorely needed, as is a scaleable
priority flag &/or color applicable to incoming mail

Filters that are selectable on an individual, folder or global basis
are also needed.

And the standard windows paragraph jumping Ctrl- up and down key
commands should be supported.

But: From how many accounts can Calypso send or download from at once?
It's sequential. Not TB! And TB's stable.

And if for some reason you are unable to open your password encoded
Calypso mailbox (i.e if Calypso won't stay open after installing a
minor upgrade - a true life story), you will find that you will be
unable to access your email (50 mb of it, in my case). Don't expect any
help from mcsdallas beyond telling you to install every damn windows
update that ever came out. May they burn forever in Windows hell and
thank god for some of the good willed people on this list.

I just went up and modified the subject header. Tab brought me right
back to this line.  That's TB.

TP>>> Well, you two aren't typical Windows users. As it goes, virtual
TP>>> space has some people who like it and others who don't.

You may have noticed that most TB users and supporters (i.e. AEV) on
TBUDL *aren't your* "typical Windows users", don't share the typical
assumptions held by US "Windows users" and are not even in the U.S.
Welcome to TB!, a refreshing approach to email.

TP> Plus I've never managed to get Emacs to run on this PC.

Does Emacs do what TB! does? (It *would* be nice if TB! would come out
with a Linux version soon though).

TP> What else?  Well, it has everything that TB has, but more of it.

Including email?

TP> As I  mentioned above, the text reformatting is way more powerful, but at
TP> the same time it can be trickier to use and it takes longer to set up
TP> (not to mention, it's three keystrokes, esc-q-w, rather than just
TP> alt-l)...  It's a tradeoff that I would take.

I happen to agree about the key strokes. Ctrl-V in Calypso is
Shift-Ctrl-K in TB! (which takes no more energy for me then the
first), plus you've got Shift-Ctrl-H. I can live with this. TB! is
worth learning. And as stated, key configurations will be optional in
v. 2.

I have no problem with anyone using whatever external apps they choose
in addition to TB. And I agree with some of your observations as well
as recognize the depth of the familiarity you show with the things you
know; but while many of your comments may be helpful, I strongly
suggest you suspend your assumptions to a greater degree and try to
assimilate the approach TB takes to windows email.

Doug

Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:18:32 -0800, Nick Andriash wrote:

[..snip..]

> I have the same feelings toward Agent, and although I haven't tried
> X-News as yet, I am currently trying Gravity 2.2. It configures multiple
> servers easily, and has scoring as well. Have you tried this Program yet
> Allie?

Yes, but considering that I have to pay for the damn thing, the editor
is UTTERLY unacceptable. How can you create a popup message saying
that the flow of text is too long and that some readers may have problems
reading the message without providing a solution?!! X-News gives a
reformat facility. Agent says nothing on the matter. :) You cannot paste
as quote and you cannot configure the editors color scheme. I can't
imagine how the editor can be like this and there is no facility (unless
it's hidden) to use an external editor.  When I copy and paste text to
'message cleaner' it's done in a buggy fashion as well (that's
unbelievable. I didn't know such a thing could happen). I therefore
ditched it without hesitation. X-News is better IMHO and it's free.

-- 
-=Allie=- | Using The Bat! v1.39
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
--†-
[ Ever stop to think, and forget to start again? ]


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Re: Newsreading with Bat?

[Nick Andriash]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 2:02:43 PM, Allie Martin wrote:

>  Yes, I used the Agent
> combo for sometime myself but realized that Agent failed quite
> substantially on the e-mail side. It also fails quite markedly on the news
> side as well with it's inability to support multiple servers without
> having to run multiple instances . enter X-News. :)

I have the same feelings toward Agent, and although I haven't tried
X-News as yet, I am currently trying Gravity 2.2. It configures multiple
servers easily, and has scoring as well. Have you tried this Program yet
Allie?

Nick


-- 
-=Nick Andriash=-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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PGP Keys available from KeyServers
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Re: Possible filter bug?

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Ralf Buschmann,

On  Wed, 19 Jan 2000 at 09:27:28 [GMT +0100] your local time which was
Wednesday,  January  19,  2000 15:27:28 [GMT +0700] my local time, you
told to the list:

RB> I  have  set  up  a  filter that is supposed to move undeliverable
RB> mails that bounce back to me to a special folder. The filter is on
RB> top of my filter list. The only filter rule I have set up for this
RB> filter is

RB> StringsLocation Presence
RB> -++--
RB> mailer-daemon|postmaster | Sender | Yes

RB> No  alternatives  or  other  options. Now the filter works fine so
RB> far,  but  it  regularly  filters  messages  from a newsletter I'm
RB> subscribed  to although the sender address of this newsletter does
RB> neither contain the string "mailer-daemon" nor "postmaster".

RB> Yes,  there  is the string "postmaster" in some header fields, but
RB> not in the "From:" field. So what other headers The Bat! treats as
RB> a "Sender" header?

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Subject: Must Know Resources & Links From BrainBuzz.com
>> From: "BrainBuzz.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ^^
   perhaps this.
   


RB> Thanks!

RB> Ralf.



-- 
- syafril -


Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama 
Mailto  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
URL : www.dutaint.co.id  | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241  



I am using The Bat! 1.39 (reg) under
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 built 1381, Service Pack 6

Created : Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 15:45:43 (GMT + 07:00)

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Tom,

On  19 January 2000  at  17:38:48 GMT -0800 (which was 01:38 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

TP> I started programming 18 years ago. All of the editors I used did,
TP> indeed, have what we could call virtual space.

...  and when I started 10 years before that, my editing was done with
a  hole  punch.  With  punched  paper tape there was no virtual space.
Imagine  my  joy  when  I  discovered the punched card and the virtual
space  inherent  in  that. Perhaps that transition is the source of my
addiction to the facility. Who knows.

TP> If  something  is trying to be a full-fledged email solution, then
TP> it should be configurable to the user's content.

I think that's a fine summation point. Let's leave this topic there.

TP> what  are  your  thoughts  of  adding  NNTP  support  to The Bat!?

:-((

I  argued  against  HTML  reading  and  many other OT features - to no
avail.  I  haven't  voiced  my  opinion in the NNTP debate because the
anti-bloat  stalwarts  are presenting heaps of bandwidth on my behalf.
FWIW,  I  object  and  don't  want it. I'm happy with Agent as my news
reader  -  not  that I've had a chance to use it in a while. Currently
the  weight  of traffic on TBUDL and the inflow from another 2 lists I
have to scan for working purposes is actually keeping me from doing my
real job!

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 
-
Using The Bat! 1.39
under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  

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Re: Possible filter bug?

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Ralf,

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:27:28 +0100GMT (19/01/2000, 16:27 +0800GMT),
Ralf Buschmann wrote:

RB> Yes, there is the string "postmaster" in some header fields, but not in
RB> the "From:" field. So what other headers The Bat! treats as a "Sender"
RB> header?

I don't know that. Lacking and X-Sender, maybe Reply-To? Or anything
that has the word "from" in front of it?

But if you have another filter for this newsletter (so that messages
from this list are fitlered into the dedicated folder), mark it
"override existing filters".

Alternatively, put the folder for the newsletter first, before the
"bounce" filter.

Alternatively, "add" another condition to your 'bounce' filter:

String location  presence
postmastergeneral.com  kludges   no

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re[4]: External editor (was:Re: suggestion- / wish-list)

[tracer]

Hello Oleg Zalyalov,
On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:32:52 +0400 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 19, 2000, 2:32:52 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Oleg Zalyalov wrote:

Oleg> Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Oleg> Wednesday, January 19, 2000, tracer wrote to Nick Danger about
Oleg> External editor (was:Re: suggestion- / wish-list):

> I  don't need excellent editor for editing mail. I am quite happy with
> mediocre one. The main thing I want from it -- speed.

SL That is you.  You're not me and, well, the other 6 billion people on this
SL planet.
Oleg> You  are  not  me  and not the other 6 billion people either. Yes, the
Oleg> majority  is  on  your  side  on  this matter -- they prefer the fancy
Oleg> colors of M$ shit to the speed and efficiency.

t>> If the speed difference is visible, what about a hardware
t>> upgrade/ram???

Oleg> Come here, tell it to my boss.
If he/she pays my consultancy/travel fee, why not(g).
Anyway, leaving that aside, last time I saw a wordprocessor being
outtyped was in the xt period.
Now to avoid getting stuck on the wrong side of the fence, I like
buildin slim and nice/fast working editors.I donot mind what gets added as
long as it doesnt interfere with that but if someone really wants
fancyful addons, only thing I can see working well is an external
editor.
Anyone wanting those bells and whistles has to undergo the
consequences.
Anyway gettting back to my remark about hardware upgrade,
proper defragmentation, adding some ram can result in a speed increase
you wouldnt believe.
If you think extra ram produces significant speed increases, ask a
shop if they can SHOW that to your boss and convince him to look when
to do.
I never lost a sale on ram sofar, they always want to keep it...
Anyway, this is asuming you got a bottleneck there but most people do.


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
using FireTalk: 321338



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Possible filter bug?

[Ralf Buschmann]

Hi all,

I have set up a filter that is supposed to move undeliverable mails that
bounce back to me to a special folder. The filter is on top of my filter
list. The only filter rule I have set up for this filter is


StringsLocation Presence
-++--
mailer-daemon|postmaster | Sender | Yes


No alternatives or other options. Now the filter works fine so far, but
it regularly filters messages from a newsletter I'm subscribed to
although the sender address of this newsletter does neither contain the
string "mailer-daemon" nor "postmaster".

Here is the header of one of those messages:


> Received: from postmastergeneral.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[192.41.38.170]) by
> backmagic.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20481 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 19 
>Jan 2000
> 04:09:15 +0100 (CET)
> Received: (from postmast@localhost) by postmastergeneral.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id 
>TAA07176 for
> 
>:include:/usr/home/frontpag/usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-data/pmg/users/eclinks/delivery/946407278.29107/rblk.13;
> Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:05:50 -0800 (PST)
> Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 19:05:02 PST
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Subject: Must Know Resources & Links From BrainBuzz.com
> From: "BrainBuzz.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-Mailer: MindShare Design's PostMaster General -- http://www.postmastergeneral.com
> X-Info: This service does not permit Unsolicited Commercial Email.
> X-Info: To report abuse, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-PMG-Userid: eclinks
> X-PMG-Msgid: 946407278.29107
> X-PMG-Recipient: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-UIDL: 9aa62c5ddb606618ab16b8987ad782aa


Yes, there is the string "postmaster" in some header fields, but not in
the "From:" field. So what other headers The Bat! treats as a "Sender"
header?

Thanks!

Ralf.
-- 
BackMagic: Disaster Recovery & Cloning für Windows 9x
http://www.backmagic.de



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