Re[2]: Happy99/SKA virus/worm fix from moderator was - Re: Network Problems

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

>>> That's OK, because most people will save it before running it.
>>> Question  :  what  happen  if  you  try  to  run it directly from mail
>>> attachment (without saving it first) ?

KB>> Still  catches it because it has to be decoded first before it can
KB>> do anything.

> Good, you're lucky.

It was interesting too, because it was at work that I downloaded it and NAV
caught it.  At work I don't have messages deleted from the server so I can
still download them from home.  I wanted to download it at home to see if
McAfee would catch it, but when I got home and downloaded messages, the
message wasn't there, so Compuserve must have detected it in the mean time
and deleted it.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.38 Beta/5
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Re[2]: Happy99/SKA virus/worm fix from moderator was - Re: Network Problems

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

KB>> NAV  picked  up  on  it  as  soon  as  I tried to save it out to a
KB>> directory.

> That's OK, because most people will save it before running it.
> Question  :  what  happen  if  you  try  to  run it directly from mail
> attachment (without saving it first) ?

Still catches it because it has to be decoded first before it can do
anything.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.38 Beta/5
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Re[2]: Happy99/SKA virus/worm fix from moderator was - Re: Network Problems

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> Sorry Leif, I have other opinion. AFAIK   Happy99.exe   is  a  Trojan
> Virus (Hoax ?), which infected to mailer  with MAPI capable such
> Outlook97/98/2000, Outlook Express 4/5, Exchange  Client.  Luckyly The
> Bat! not MAPI capable, yet; in the next version if The Bat! have MAPI
> capability, we also must aware with this kind  of  viruses (Mike not use
> The Bat! at the first time sending msg with Happy99.exe)

> Trojan  or  hoax viruses can't be detected by "common anti virus" such
> McAfee or NAV, just like "macro viruses" it's need special treatment.

NAV picked up on it as soon as I tried to save it out to a directory.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



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Re[5]: Activating only certain filters

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi Jason,

> I hadn't noticed that before. I'll try adding that to the filter and
> seeing if it works.

Remember not to ADD it to the filter as then the filter will check for all
of the strings you have in there.  That should be the only string that is
being checked.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



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Re[3]: Activating only certain filters

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> OK. As far as I can tell, this is the only list I'm trying to filter that
> doesn't have an "easy" filter criteria (all the others I can filter based
> on either the from, to, or something standardized in the subject line.)
> This one doesn't seem to have any of that - as you pointed out, the only
> way apparently to filter this is based on what's in the headers, because
> the to is just to me, the from is from whoever sent it (which is
> different than all of my other lists I am filtering in that on those the
> from is the list address), and there's no standardized subject line.

I'm a little confused from what everyone is saying here.  Maybe I missed
part of the discussion, but for me, just filtering on TBUDL alone in the
Recipient field works just fine.  All messages come in with someones name
in the recipient field but the email address there always is
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

For instance doesn't the To: field in this message as you have received it
look like "Jason Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" (without the quotes)?

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: (No Subject)

[Kevin Boylan]

> Given the two choices of bosses, I'd rather take the one who knows
> what he is doing and is a little rough around the edges than the one
> who doesn't know what he is doing, makes my life and job hell, but,
> damn, can he state it politely.

I wouldn't prefer either boss if the one who knows what he is doing is
rude, talks down to everyone, and has an oversized ego.  He's no
better than the other because he's not going to get anything
accomplished either. The ones that truly impress me are the ones that
know what they are doing AND have some social skills to go along with
that. I've actually had bosses that know nothing technically, but they
were great bosses because they knew it.  They handled the political
side and let me handle the technical side.

> Personally, I think politeness at the expense of accuracy of thought
> and communication is a detriment.  It throws up illusions that
> everything is hunky-dory when, in fact, it is not.  When the party
> in the grips of the illusion realizes that, it is far, FAR worse
> than just coming out, up front, and stating the case instead of
> pussy-footing around.

But politeness doesn't have to be at the expense of accuracy of
thought.  And more often than not, rudeness detracts from those
accurate thoughts. You can be direct and to the point without
including rudeness.

> Society has gotten a little *too* polite and it is time for it to
> change.

If there's one thing I don't like it's all the Political Correctness
stuff these days, and I THINK that's what you are aluding to because I
really don't think the world is becoming more polite, it seems to
becoming less polite. But politeness and PC are two different things.
It really is possible to be polite and get a point across at the same
time.  I noticed that everyone listened to and learned from your great
description of MUA etc, myself included.  :-)

Thanks,

Kevin



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Limits on # of addresses for one email

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

Can someone tell me if there are any limits (either in number or in
characters) on how much can end up in a message for recipient
addresses imposed by either internet standards and/or by The Bat?
Seems like I remember seeing somewhere that there is a character limit
as to how long the To: or the CC: or BCC: fields can be.  Is that
true?

Do I need to break a large group list into smaller groups at some
point?

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[4]: Update

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> Thats why killfilters exist
> he is on mine...

I couldn't find anything in the help file on these.  Does a kill filter
delete the message from the server without even downloading it, or does it
download it and just delete it off of your local workstation?

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36
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Re[2]: Filter: "delete from server if message is larger......."

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi Ali,

> Actually the option says, "Delete *received* messages from server",
> which would imply that, if checked, only downloaded messages and not
> the large message that was not downloaded will be deleted from the
> server.

This is what I thought too, but it does indeed delete the big message
from the server.

> Does TB! announce/indicate whenever it leaves messages on the server
> because of their size?

I hope this is what they will have it do in the future.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

>> Probably, but I wouldn't make my choice of OS at home based on
>> that. :-)

> No, but it is about as valid a reason as any other.  IE... not all
> that valid.

No, not as valid a reason as "I don't want to work in two different
word processors, I want to be able to transfer stuff from work to
home", etc.  So it's not as valid a reason as any others.

>> I would tend to disagree. If you live, eat, and breath computers
>> all day, every day like some of us do, it becomes easy at some
>> point to instinctively understand things and know what's going on
>> behind the scenes.

> No, all it takes is a little common sense.

You really believe that?  You really believe all those years of
experience mean nothing when it comes to being able to figure out why
things are happening?   You think common sense alone will make someone
that is not technically oriented, be able to understand all that
technically oriented stuff?  OK.  :-\

>> Now... you guessed it, they complain because they have to wade
>> through so many hits.  They want only the hits that they can use
>> right then and they and want the software to weed out the rest, but
>> how in the &*#^ is the software supposed to know?

> Exactly.  And people wonder why I prefer Yahoo! to Altavista or
> Excite. 35,000 hits looks impressive but it is exactly as useful as
> 0 hits.  Try telling that to a lot of people, however.

We agree there.  The difference here is that we're talking about
people that want computers to do all of THEIR job for them.  They
think computers should make it so they don't have to think or do
anything anymore and that ain't right.

>> So, we try to modify and enhance software, not necessarily to coddle these
>> people, but maybe to make life easier for those of us who have to do the
>> support.

> No, it is coddling, plain and simple.  Call it what it is.

I call it reality.  You're not going to change the users.  They don't
care what you expect of them and they are paying the bills.

>> If we gets calls about something enough times, we figure we'd get less calls
>> if we make a change (if it makes sense). Now I guess M$ has tried to do this
>> but they seem to have made a mess when they did it. That doesn't mean that
>> everyone has to make a mess when they do it though.

> No, it does.  By playing that game, by catering to every little
> newbie whim you end up with a system that is not internally
> consistent and is annoying to the majority of people.

No it doesn't, not if you do it right.  I'm not talking about catering
to every little newbie whim... read the (if it makes sense). If
everyone asks for something different, everything doesn't get put in.
A little intelligence and judgement goes into what actually ends up
going in.

> This isn't just M$, it is M$ and Mac and, as you pointed out,
> yourself.

I don't think I pointed that out at all.

>> Those developers that finally do it the right way... maybe by
>> having good judgement and not trying to put in everything including
>> the kitchen sink, but, instead, putting in the things that make the
>> most sense... are the ones that have the best software.

> Amazingly enough, that best software happens to be the ones that
> started this whole discussion.  The ones that are "hard to learn"
> and "cryptic."

This is YOUR opinion and is typically the case for a lot of power
users, not for occasional users. Most users are the latter.  Again,
they don't care if the support guy expects them to read up on things.
There's nothing that's going to make them.

> I can boil down this down to a statement I heard a while ago. "NT is
> designed so an idiot can administer the server.  Make it so an idiot
> can do that and only idiot's will."

Bashing NT has nothing to do with this mailing list or what this
thread started out about (though about 90% of your messages seem to
end up going in that direction). What it was about is people asking
for a new feature here and there which is certainly normal. Some
should go in, some shouldn't and it ends up being the choice of the
developers and that goes according to who they see their users as. If
they add a new feature, convenience or not, doesn't mean The Bat! will
all of a sudden turn into NT, or Oriffice, or anything else M$ as long
as they do it right.

> Tough, you need to learn a little bit.

That's just it.  They don't HAVE to, so they probably never will.  The
idiots rule.

Kevin



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

>> machine at home that they do at work for obvious reasons. (Yes I know
>> that is technically a choice, but it wouldn't be a good choice to use
>> totally different OS's and applications at work and home in most cases)

> Actually, it would be better to have a variety.  Makes viruses kind of
> hard to propagate, doesn't it?

Probably, but I wouldn't make my choice of OS at home based on that. :-)

> I make my living off of Unix, not Windows.  My training and experience on
> Windows is self-taught, 100%.  I've not read any of the books nor have I
> read the manuals.  Most of my formal training and experience is on the
> Unix (and variants) platform.

I would *guess*, that most of what you know about Unix too, you learned
through experience, not though formal training.

> I expect people to have the same basic understanding of Windows I do.  In
> fact, maybe more so since supposedly the dummies series of books is so damned
> popular.  While my experience and knowledge may be vast, I do not think that
> people need even a fraction of it to use computers in a sensible manner.  They
> just need some common sense, which, despite its name, isn't very common.

I would tend to disagree.  If you live, eat, and breath computers all day,
every day like some of us do, it becomes easy at some point to
instinctively understand things and know what's going on behind the scenes.
Even across computer types and OS's.  It's also easy to forget how foreign
the behind-the-scenes stuff is to the general user, especially when it
changes so much so fast.

> I'd love it if people would attempt to understand what they are reading
> instead of pull a hamster and just call tech support when the smallest thing
> breaks.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you totally about those users
(and software designers for that matter) that seem to think software should
read their minds and be so intuitive that it should give them exactly what
they want all the time even if they've never used it before. For instance,
we recently designed a search engine for a project that, at first, everyone
complained that they seemed to be missing too many hits because they could
find documents on their own that had what they believed should be hits. So,
we re-configured the way they wanted, to find synonyms, misspellings, etc.
Now... you guessed it, they complain because they have to wade through so
many hits.  They want only the hits that they can use right then and they
and want the software to weed out the rest, but how in the &*#^ is the
software supposed to know?

But, there will always be new users, and users that don't use the computer
enough to avoid making mistakes, and there will always be LOTS of them.  So
while it would be nice if they would all have to get a license to drive a
computer first, it ain't gonna happen.  So, we try to modify and enhance
software, not necessarily to coddle these people, but maybe to make life
easier for those of us who have to do the support.  If we gets calls about
something enough times, we figure we'd get less calls if we make a change
(if it makes sense). Now I guess M$ has tried to do this but they seem to
have made a mess when they did it. That doesn't mean that everyone has to
make a mess when they do it though. Those developers that finally do it the
right way... maybe by having good judgement and not trying to put in
everything including the kitchen sink, but, instead, putting in the things
that make the most sense... are the ones that have the best software.

Kevin



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:33:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
>> OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice.

> Isn't that a little high given the amount of home PCs and number of
> businesses that do allow users to chose?

No, I don't think so.  In businesses not very many allow you to chose on
your own anymore and most people I know want to have the same type of
machine at home that they do at work for obvious reasons. (Yes I know that
is technically a choice, but it wouldn't be a good choice to use totally
different OS's and applications at work and home in most cases)

>> And yes it does become a problem FOR them. But I think the point was that it
>> isn't the fault of the "end user" that experiences the crash in many to most
>> of the situations.

> I still do not think that is the case.  If it were the case then I would
> be experiencing constant problems on the many Windows machines I have used
> both at work and at home.  Simply put, I do not experience even remotely the
> amount of problems I hear others complaining about.

> Now, given the numerous machines and flavors of Windows I've used on those
> machines I think we can rule out "luck" as a factor.  What is left is that,
> clearly, I am doing something right and they are doing something wrong.

There are many degrees of "knowing what you are doing" and so I would hope
that you, being an expert, would know how to *avoid* the problems that
others might experience. But surely you can't possibly expect everyone to
have the same amount of training and experience as yourself when you earn a
living off of "knowing".

Kevin Boylan



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

Oops, answered the wrong message... sorry about that.  Don't mean to sound
like I'm talking to myself!  :-)
 
> Wednesday, November 03, 1999, 9:06:50 AM, Kevin wrote:
>>> They chose to use it, didn't they?

>> I honestly don't know very many people who have a choice of what OS they
>> use in their jobs.

> I honestly don't know of very many IT managers that don't have a choice.
> It is still a (l)user's problem.

OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice.  And yes it does become a
problem FOR them.  But I think the point was that it isn't the fault of the
"end user" that experiences the crash in many to most of the situations.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



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Re[3]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

>>> Exactly. It's windows. It's therefore not the users fault when that
>>> frustrating crash occurs. :)

>> They chose to use it, didn't they?

> I honestly don't know very many people who have a choice of what OS they
> use in their jobs.

OK, so 99.9% of the people don't have a choice.  And yes it does become a
problem FOR them.  But I think the point was that it isn't the fault of the
"end user" that experiences the crash in many to most of the situations.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

>> Exactly. It's windows. It's therefore not the users fault when that
>> frustrating crash occurs. :)

> They chose to use it, didn't they?

I honestly don't know very many people who have a choice of what OS they
use in their jobs.

Kevin



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Re[2]: OT: Computer Philosophy (was: Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> Sunday, October 31, 1999, 10:09:38 AM, Paula wrote:
>> a computer with a problem, which wants to waste my time trying to
>> interpret its pouting silence or irritatingly cryptic outbursts. Rather
>> like men.

> Rather like women, actually.  Most of the men I know will state flat out
> what the problem is.  Women, on the other hand, are the ones who go silent,
> pout and pull out that lovely line, "You know what's wrong!"  Sure, uh-huh.

In *my* experience,  A larger percentage of women aren't as savvy with
operating systems and their problems but tend to know the applications
pretty well. They listen to what you say and appreciate your help. A larger
percentage of men have some idea what they are doing with the OS, but they
won't listen as closely and they try to act like they know more than they
do.

The real headache for tech support seems to be those guys that think they
are guru's and know more about network, LAN, and mainframe support than the
experts, when their only real experience is on their own PC's. They get
torqued at things that don't happen the way they think they should (I'm not
talking about real problems) and constantly complain and try to TELL you
how things should be done.

The clueless people actually are *usually* no big problem to help because
they typically have easy problems to fix.  It's just that they do tend to
call you more often.  But they do tend make for some funny stories to tell
among the other techs and keep life interesting.  :-)

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



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Re: Receiving Mail

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi Nick,

>  If I have, under Mail Management, Delete received messages from
> server *and* Receive header only if message size greater than X -
> both checked, and a "larger than" message comes in does it.

> A. Download the header and keep the message on the server
> or
> B. Download the header only and deletes the message off the server?

> Thanks for any light you can shed.

Unfortunately it's B.  I found out the hard way.  This is not what I
had expected at all because other software packages I've used let me
know that the message was there without downloading it and let me
download, delete it, or ignore it on another run.

I'm not sure if deleting it is the way it was meant to work or not.

Thanks,

Kevin
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.bigfoot.com/~boylank

Re: Cant change my email address

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

Well I think I finally figured out why this problem was happening.  It
appears that my account specific templates are overriding the personal
templates for specific address book entries.  This isn't the way is's
supposed to happen is it?

Thanks,

Kevin

> Has anyone reported this one, or does anyone else get this behavior from
> 1.36?

> 1) When I change my email address for an account in the account properties
>(both normal and return address) it doesn't change.  When I create a
>new email or reply and the old address is still showing up in the FROM,
>REPLYTO and other fields.  I even shut down The Bat! and started it up
>again and it is still remembering the old email address.

> 2) I know this worked in 1.35 but I can't seem to get it to work in 1.36. I
>have, for instance, a template with the following:

>%Cursor

>%FROM=""
>%REPLYTO=""
>%FROM="different-email-address"
>%REPLYTO="different-email-address"
>%RETURNPATH="different-email-address"

>But this isn't overriding the old email address either.

> Thanks,

> Kevin Boylan

> 

> Using The Bat! 1.36
> Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 


Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



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Re: Cant change my email address

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

> 1) When I change my email address for an account in the account properties
>(both normal and return address) it doesn't change.  When I create a
>new email or reply and the old address is still showing up in the FROM,
>REPLYTO and other fields.  I even shut down The Bat! and started it up
>again and it is still remembering the old email address.

Slight change to the above description... It's working ok with replies, but
new emails are still remembering the old email address.  Any ideas why?

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 

Cant change my email address

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

Has anyone reported this one, or does anyone else get this behavior from
1.36?

1) When I change my email address for an account in the account properties
   (both normal and return address) it doesn't change.  When I create a
   new email or reply and the old address is still showing up in the FROM,
   REPLYTO and other fields.  I even shut down The Bat! and started it up
   again and it is still remembering the old email address.

2) I know this worked in 1.35 but I can't seem to get it to work in 1.36. I
   have, for instance, a template with the following:

   %Cursor

   %FROM=""
   %REPLYTO=""
   %FROM="different-email-address"
   %REPLYTO="different-email-address"
   %RETURNPATH="different-email-address"

   But this isn't overriding the old email address either.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 

Re: Compuserve2000 again...

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi Andreas,

 
> Hi.
> Has no one any idea how to check Compuserve2000 email with The Bat
> 1.34a?

I use Compuserve, not Compuserve 2000 which is supposed to be a whole
separate network.  But for regular compuserve the settings are:

  POP3: pop.site1.csi.com
  SMTP: smtp.site1.csi.com

I'm not sure if they'd be the same or not for CIS2000.

Kevin



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The Bat! - suggestions

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

New feature request:

PLEASE, PLEASE, make it an option as to whether the Message Management
option to "Download header only if message size is greater than" deletes
the message on the server or not.  I would like to be notified that there
is a large message on the server so that I can download it when I have
time, but the way it is right now, (at least the way it appears to work)
the message gets deleted from the server all together.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 



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Re[2]: Log of Filters

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

PG>>   Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 8:34:14 AM :   - n messages refiltered to
PG>>   stkilda\tbudl   - m messages refiltered to douance\faq   etc.

> I absolutely support this idea. I often get the info "x messages"
> refiltered" but don't know where to. Due to overlapping filters, I
> have to look around.

Something that would be nice that is sort of related to this... The e-mail
software I previously used, had a folder called "ALL" which didn't
physically store messages, but listed ALL messages in the account from all
of the folders. Something like this would be nice, a folder that lists ALL
messages and what folder they are in.  There isn't already a way in The
Bat! to get the same thing is there?

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 



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Re[3]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>>> A kind of frivolous suggestion I guess, but as you can tell from my
>>> previous post, I have a hard time remembering to enter a subject
>>> sometimes. I think it would be worthwhile to have a warning message
>>> when we press the send or queue button if we haven't entered a subject.

> You wouldn't believe it: I sent this suggestion already one year ago, and
> others did as well. But nothing has happened BTW Microsoft Outlook
> has this feature.

I hate to compare The Bat! to Outlook, which I hate, but I've used several
email packages that have this option.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> While you certainly don't want to go to the extreme where it makes
>> the user unproductive, any software developer wouldn't last long if
>> they didn't include some code to help the user avoid mistakes.

> This is extreme as there is no technical reason to do the check.  It makes
> the user unproductive because it causes them to jump through one more hoop to
> do what they want.

No hoops to jump through if options have to be turned on to use them.

> I'd rather lose the files the one time I screw up than to have
> to confirm the few thousand+ times I don't.

You may rather lose the files, but there are lots of paranoid people
out there that wouldn't.  Their jobs may depend on it.  Besides that's
what the "Yes to All" buttons are for.  :-)

> I'd rather send out one message without a subject and didn't mean it than
> to have to confirm the few hundred or thousand times I do.

If you only forgot one subject, then you'd only have gotten one
confirmation message.

> Mistakes happen, deal with it, don't dumb it down to where it causes extra
> work.

No extra work at all if all options have to be "turned on" to be used.

>> I agree with you here, but you are stating an extreme case, where they
>> went to the point of making things unproductive IMO.  Software should
>> be flexible and provide options.

> It is not an extreme case.

It's an extreme case in that they overdo the confirmations. I'm not
asking for anything like that.  Just a simple option that lets me know
if I didn't add a subject, that wouldn't affect you if you didn't turn
the option on.

> Let's put checks on emptying the trash, on parked messages in the
> trash, on deleting messages, on exiting existing messages, on
> deleting addresses from the to line, the cc line, the bcc line,
> deleting the subject, changing the templates, changing the quick
> templates, stopping a search.  What other button presses haven't I
> mentioned yet?  Now, let's make them all optional.  I just named 11
> options so far off the top of my head which all fall in the same
> "idiot-proof" catagory and if I decided to sit here and really go
> through TB and catalog all that I could think of I could fill 2-3
> pages on a normal tabbed option display.

I don't want checks on any of the things you listed either, but if
they were options that I had to turn ON if I wanted them I wouldn't
have a problem with it.  No extra work unless you WANT the option. But
the flexibility would be there if I needed it.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> If The Bat! (or any software for that matter) only included things
>> that were technically required to get mail from here to there, then
>> it wouldn't sell many copies.

> Furthermore, you don't know that it won't sell copies.

I said *many* copies.  There's plenty of mail packages out there that
only do the bare minimum that don't sell.

>> So what?  Set all the defaults so that the idiot proof messages
>> DON'T come up.

> Sure, please, let me set 50-60 different check boxes or whatever off.  I
> really appreciate that.

If they are all, by default, set so checking doesn't happen then you'd
never have to see or care about them.

>> I'd rather have more options than I'll ever use than to be
>> frustrated because I have none at all.

> Then why are you using Windows?

Same reason as you I guess.  You were the one that brought up Window's
inexcusableness.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> Except that a subject is something that you almost never want to
>> leave blank and a default subject is no better than no subject.  If
>> you never forget to enter a subject then you never see the 'idiot
>> light' that us idiots seem to need.  :-)

> Operative term is almost.  Quick notes to my relatives, however, I rarely
> put subjects on.  Software isn't there to prevent the user from making
> mistakes.

Huh?  Software is definitely there to keep us from making mistakes.
While you certainly don't want to go to the extreme where it makes the
user unproductive, any software developer wouldn't last long if they
didn't include some code to help the user avoid mistakes.

> Assumptions like that only decrease software's usability, not
> increases it.  I'd rather make the mistakes than have to confirm
> everything.

> Look at it another way, deleting files in Windows is impossible now
> without having at least one and possibly up to 3 different confirmation boxes.
> I find that inexcusable.

I agree with you here, but you are stating an extreme case, where they
went to the point of making things unproductive IMO.  Software should
be flexible and provide options.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> That's true. It's good netiquette to always include a subject
>> header.

> But not a technical requirement.

If The Bat! (or any software for that matter) only included things
that were technically required to get mail from here to there, then it
wouldn't sell many copies.  When I compared The Bat! to other software
packages I chose it because of where it went above and beyond the bare
minimum.

> "Make it an option" I hear people thinking.  Great, so how many
> idiot-proofing things are we going to make optional?  Trust me, we
> can put so many in that we'd have 2-3 screens of options just to
> control the idiot-proofing.

So what?  Set all the defaults so that the idiot proof messages DON'T
come up.  I personally prefer software that gives me some kind of
control over things.  I'd rather have more options than I'll ever use
than to be frustrated because I have none at all.

> Mistakes happen.  Unless there is a technical reason to issue a warning,
> please, don't issue a warning.

See above.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

KB>> A kind of frivolous suggestion I guess, but as you can tell from my
KB>> previous post, I have a hard time remembering to enter a subject
KB>> sometimes. I think it would be worthwhile to have a warning message
KB>> when we press the send or queue button if we haven't entered a
KB>> subject.

> Personally, I find those "idiot light" type warnings irritating as all
> heck. I'm always thinking "If I wanted a damn subject I would have put a
> damn subject" as I press the OK button. Just add a default to your
> template and then change it if needed, at least you'll have something
> there. Like - "This would be different if I didn't forget to change it".

Except that a subject is something that you almost never want to leave
blank and a default subject is no better than no subject.  If you never
forget to enter a subject then you never see the 'idiot light' that us
idiots seem to need.  :-)

Thanks,

Kevin



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Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

A kind of frivolous suggestion I guess, but as you can tell from my
previous post, I have a hard time remembering to enter a subject sometimes.
I think it would be worthwhile to have a warning message when we press the
send or queue button if we haven't entered a subject.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.36 Beta/10
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 



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(No Subject)

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

When I checked the option to only download headers if the message is above
a certain size, I was surprised when The Bat! deleted the actual message
from the server.

Is there a way to get The Bat! to let us know that there is a large message
on the server without downloading it or deleting it?  I know that I can run
Dispatch on the Mail Server, but I don't really want to do this every time
before downloading messages.  I'd rather be notified about large messages
and given an option at that time as to what to do with it.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Many accounts - only one address book?

[Kevin Boylan]

Hi,

>> I am using The Bat! 1.36 and I have 4 other users (accounts). One thing
>> is there wrong, because all the users have common address book. What I
>> want is a separate AB for every user. How to do that? It looks simple...
>> - just create a new address book - but what I want is that other people
>> couldn't see others address books... Is it possible?

> No, for this time. Maybe in version 2 of The Bat!, which can be post
> at december 1999 :-)))

Speaking of multiple users, I tried setting this up so that someone else
could see and use their own accounts.  I wanted to remain a super user so
that I could do network settings and such, so after setting everything up:

1) I could see the other persons account, which is no big problem (though
I'd rather not) except that I didn't want to download their email everytime
I did a "download for all accounts".  So I set their account for "ignore
download all".  But this made it so that when they used their account, they
couldn't do a "download for all accounts".  Is there a way around this?

2) The other user, not being a supervisor user could not see the dialup
monitor so they had no way of stopping the dialup, or see what progress was
being made during the dialup.  Is there a reason for this?

In version 2 will it be possible to create user accounts first and then let
accounts be defined for them instead of the other way around?  There seems
to be a lot of intermingling of user/account information right now.

Thanks,

Kevin Boylan



Using The Bat! 1.38 Beta/1
Under Windows NT4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 3 



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Re[2]: (No Subject)

[Kevin Boylan]

> Beginners shouldn't really be making suggestions.  Furthermore
> everyone is a beginner exactly once.  I don't like things that are
> geared for beginners at the exclusion of those who aren't because of
> that.

I was waiting for this.  So now you get your way around here only due
to seniority.  Cute.

You know, most people get over the "I know more than everybody else"
stage sometime in their teens.

> Yes, they did.  Normally, though, such ideas aren't ones that are rehashed
> and argued over every time a new person comes into the forum.  For example...

You've been on enough mailing lists to know what to expect.

> These things, among others, are what makes it hard for the experienced
> users to stay on this, and other, lists.  They are topics that keep coming up
> ever 3-6 weeks with the new people.

So I just hope it gets harder.

Time for a Steve Lamb kill filter.

Bye,

Kevin



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