! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

I am currently testing out TheBat! 1.49 and it is a great program.  I
previously tried TheBat! and it did not look that good at that time.
I guess I really did not look in to the program that well.  Because
the last two days I have been thoroughly analyzing the program and I
cannot find any con's to not to use it, except for a few minor con's.

In TheBat! 1.49 I am using the 'Full-height Account Tree' setting
(View | Split Mode | Full-height Account Tree) and the following for
message threading:

  View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
  View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
  View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
  View | View Threads by | References (Alt 1)

My Message Column Settings are:

  Subject, From, Received, Size, Attachments, Flagging, Priority

BUG:
I found one annoying bug.  In a message thread if you click on the
plus signs throughout the entire message thread, you will notice the
Message List Columns to the right will gradually move to the right.
If you do this through a long threaded message discussion, you will
see the remaining Message List Columns just goes to the far right
where you have to right scroll over to see them.

BUG:
Once you fully expand the message thread with the Message Column Lists
moving to the right, you can click on the minus signs to close the
message threads one by one.  I discovered when you click on a few
minus signs to collapse part of the message thread, you cannot click
on the remaining minus signs.  I can click on the first plus sign in
the message thread to expand that part of the thread, and then I can
continue clicking on the minus signs to close the remaining thread.
This occurs when you are about four or five levels deep in the message
thread.

I really like TheBat! 1.49.  However, I am hoping the above two BUGS
can quickly be fixed since this is a very big annoyance to me.  I am
evaluating this program since there are several other users that are
wanting to purchase this program (along with myself) if everything
works for what we need it for.  If the above two bugs are quickly
fixed, or a workaround is present, this will greatly entice us to
purchase the program.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Using The Bat! v1.49 on Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Nick Danger]

Subject: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading
   From: Mark Knipfer
  Dated:  Sun, 4 Feb 2001, 10:28:46 (9:28:46 AM Local)
~~
M> Because the last two days I have been thoroughly analyzing the
M> program and I cannot find any con's to not to use it, except for a
M> few minor con's.

< 8< -  snipped bug description ->

M> However, I am hoping the above two BUGS can quickly be fixed since
M> this is a very big annoyance to me. <--snip--> If the above two bugs are
M> quickly fixed, or a workaround is present, this will greatly entice
M> us to purchase the program.

Just me or are these two paragraphs contradictory?

Beyond that, I do agree however that the way TB! expands threads is
annoying.

-- 
   (,_,_,_,) ò¸ó Nick
   /|\`-._( )_.-'/|\  Danger
  / | \`'-/ \-'`/ | \
 /  |_.'-.\ /.-'._|  \  [MUA: TB! 1.49]
/_.-'  "  `-._\ [OS: Win98 4.10 1998]
"Get comfortable, we're playing this game till I win!"



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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Nick Andriash]

On February 4, 2001, at 7:28:46 AM, Mark Knipfer Wrote:

MK>  View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
MK>   View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
MK>   View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
MK>   View | View Threads by | References (Alt 1)

Mark, I have found that if you simply view threads by Subject, you won't
get the annoying movement of the message columns across the top of your
screen. Besides, the Re:[#'s] don't seem match up. By that, I mean you can
have 3 or 4 Re:[2]'s that are replies to different authors.

I've just found it easier and cleaner to view threads by Subject alone,
and not bother with the References.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.49c | PGP 7.0.3 | Win 98 SE ]
  Vancouver, B.C. Canada | PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE  
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

Nick Danger wrote:

ND> Subject: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading
ND>From: Mark Knipfer
ND>   Dated:  Sun, 4 Feb 2001, 10:28:46 (9:28:46 AM Local)
ND> ~~
M>> Because the last two days I have been thoroughly analyzing the
M>> program and I cannot find any con's to not to use it, except for a
M>> few minor con's.

ND> < 8< -  snipped bug description ->

M>> However, I am hoping the above two BUGS can quickly be fixed since
M>> this is a very big annoyance to me. <--snip--> If the above two bugs are
M>> quickly fixed, or a workaround is present, this will greatly entice
M>> us to purchase the program.

ND> Just me or are these two paragraphs contradictory?

No.  However, I did omit in the second BUG paragraph that the Message
Column Lists do adjust back to the left little by little as you
collapse the message thread.

ND> Beyond that, I do agree however that the way TB! expands threads is
ND> annoying.

At least I know I am not the only one thinks this.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

Nick Andriash wrote:

NA> On February 4, 2001, at 7:28:46 AM, Mark Knipfer Wrote:

MK>>  View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
MK>>   View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
MK>>   View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
MK>>   View | View Threads by | References (Alt 1)

NA> Mark, I have found that if you simply view threads by Subject, you
NA> won't get the annoying movement of the message columns across the
NA> top of your screen. Besides, the Re:[#'s] don't seem match up. By
NA> that, I mean you can have 3 or 4 Re:[2]'s that are replies to
NA> different authors.

NA> I've just found it easier and cleaner to view threads by Subject
NA> alone, and not bother with the References.

I prefer to view the message threads by References rather than Subject
since I am used to viewing message threads by References.  If I view
threads by Subject, I may loose track of the discussion -- the order
of which the message are received and threaded.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 07:51:33 -0800, Nick thoughtfully wrote the
following:

 «--snip--»
NA> I've just found it easier and cleaner to view threads by Subject
NA> alone, and not bother with the References.

... The problem with this being that any minor alteration of the
subject breaks the thread and I've also noted that these subject
threads break up for no apparent reason as well, especially when the
threads are very long.

- --
@~@@~@
 |   A. Curtis Martin  [List Moderator TB(UDL|BETA|TECH)]   |
 | PGPKey: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey |
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:54:10 -0500, Mark contributed this to our
collective wisdom:

 «--snip--»
ND>> Beyond that, I do agree however that the way TB! expands threads
ND>> is annoying.

MK> At least I know I am not the only one thinks this.

This is a very old grouse among other users, myself included. I made
long posts on this issue, in the past, giving examples of, IMO, better
ways of threading. This was definitely more than a year ago. I don't
know if version 2 will introduce any 'improvements' in this regard but
I've more or less resigned myself to tolerating this implementation
(not bug).

- --
@~@@~@
 |   A. Curtis Martin  [List Moderator TB(UDL|BETA|TECH)]   |
 | PGPKey: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey |
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:58:54 -0500, Mark wrote these words of wisdom:

 «--snip--»
MK> I prefer to view the message threads by References rather than
MK> Subject since I am used to viewing message threads by References.
MK> If I view threads by Subject, I may loose track of the discussion
MK> -- the order of which the message are received and threaded.

If you sort using received time, it's remarkable how well you can
follow the discussion when threading using subject. It's just that the
thread breaks when the subject changes.

- --
@~@@~@
 |   A. Curtis Martin  [List Moderator TB(UDL|BETA|TECH)]   |
 | PGPKey: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey |
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Nick Andriash]

On February 4, 2001, at 8:00:08 AM, A. Curtis Martin Wrote:

ACM> ... The problem with this being that any minor alteration of the
ACM> subject breaks the thread and I've also noted that these subject
ACM> threads break up for no apparent reason as well, especially when the
ACM> threads are very long.

Yes, I've noticed that as well Allie, but to me it boils down to which is
the lesser of two evils. The constant shifting of my message columns off
the right side of my screen is too bothersome.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.49c | PGP 7.0.3 | Win 98 SE ]
  Vancouver, B.C. Canada | PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE  
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

A. Curtis Martin wrote:

MK>> I prefer to view the message threads by References rather than
MK>> Subject since I am used to viewing message threads by References.
MK>> If I view threads by Subject, I may loose track of the discussion
MK>> -- the order of which the message are received and threaded.

ACM> If you sort using received time, it's remarkable how well you can
ACM> follow the discussion when threading using subject.

I may try this setup:

  View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
  View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
  View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
  View | View Threads by | Subject (Alt 2)  <<-- change

Once I change TB! 1.49 to use this format, should I still experience
the Message Column Lists adjusting left/right when
collapsing/expanding the threads?

ACM> It's just that the thread breaks when the subject changes.

No problem there.  Actually, I like that when this happens.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 08:13:48 -0800, Nick thoughtfully wrote the
following:

ACM>> ... The problem with this being that any minor alteration of the
ACM>> subject breaks the thread and I've also noted that these subject
ACM>> threads break up for no apparent reason as well, especially when the
ACM>> threads are very long.

NA> Yes, I've noticed that as well Allie, but to me it boils down to
NA> which is the lesser of two evils. The constant shifting of my
NA> message columns off the right side of my screen is too bothersome.

There are a couple work arounds to the reference threading problem
that I use.

The first is to create an archive account in which I store older
messages. I then create read filters for discussion list messages that
move messages more than 4 days old to the archive folders. In this
way, I hardly ever encountered threads that sent my other message list
columns off the screen edge.

Another thing that I do ( I do this almost exclusively now), is to
read new messages from the tickers virtual folder. If I wish to read
related messages in a thread I just re-open the relevant message which
will open the folder view for the messages residing folder. I can then
read the related messages. Again, with this system I can enjoy
threading by references when reading the TB! discussion list messages
and not be annoyed by long threads sending columns out of view.

- --
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:21:44 -0500, Mark contributed this to our
collective wisdom:

MK> I may try this setup:

MK>   View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
MK>   View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
MK>   View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
MK>   View | View Threads by | Subject (Alt 2)  <<-- change

This is the exact settings I use for discussion lists where multiple
e-mail clients are being used, which makes threading by reference
headers only, quite messy.

MK> Once I change TB! 1.49 to use this format, should I still
MK> experience the Message Column Lists adjusting left/right when
MK> collapsing/expanding the threads?

No, since expanding a thread sorted by subject will lead to only one
extra level.

ACM>> It's just that the thread breaks when the subject changes.

MK> No problem there.  Actually, I like that when this happens.

This is annoying when a participant decides to correct a spelling
error or correct syntax errors within the subject header. Grrr!!  :=)

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 | PGPKey: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey |
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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

A. Curtis Martin wrote:

MK>> I may try this setup:

MK>>   View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
MK>>   View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
MK>>   View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
MK>>   View | View Threads by | Subject (Alt 2)  <<-- change

ACM> This is the exact settings I use for discussion lists where
ACM> multiple e-mail clients are being used, which makes threading by
ACM> reference headers only, quite messy.

MK>> Once I change TB! 1.49 to use this format, should I still
MK>> experience the Message Column Lists adjusting left/right when
MK>> collapsing/expanding the threads?

ACM> No, since expanding a thread sorted by subject will lead to only
ACM> one extra level.

This is why I prefer to thread by References.  Due to the effect
Subject Threading, I may not try this setup after all.

ACM>>> It's just that the thread breaks when the subject changes.

MK>> No problem there.  Actually, I like that when this happens.

ACM> This is annoying when a participant decides to correct a spelling
ACM> error or correct syntax errors within the subject header. Grrr!!  :=)

True.  I forgot about that.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Brian Clark]

Hello Mark, 

(MK == "Mark Knipfer") [EMAIL PROTECTED] etched:

Just a few alternatives:

MK>   View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)

You can also use Ctrl + *(on the num pad) to expand all threads, and
you can simply hit Esc to display all messages.

As for expanding and retracting threads, you can use the left and
right arrow keys as well.

--
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 Brian Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> PGP-KeyID: 0xE4D0C7C8
 Web Architect, Designer, and Programmer  Tel: 864.227.0750
 http://www.fusionwerks.com/  Fax: 864.942.7249
...
 TB! 1.49e, Windows 98 (SE) 4.10 Build  A



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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

Mark Knipfer wrote:

> In TheBat! 1.49 I am using the 'Full-height Account Tree' setting
> (View | Split Mode | Full-height Account Tree) and the following for
> message threading:

>   View | Display | All Messages (Ctrl =)
>   View | Sort by | Received Time (Ctrl 1)
>   View | Sort by | Descending Order (Ctrl 0)
>   View | View Threads by | References (Alt 1)

> My Message Column Settings are:

>   Subject, From, Received, Size, Attachments, Flagging, Priority

> BUG:
> I found one annoying bug.  In a message thread if you click on the
> plus signs throughout the entire message thread, you will notice the
> Message List Columns to the right will gradually move to the right.
> If you do this through a long threaded message discussion, you will
> see the remaining Message List Columns just goes to the far right
> where you have to right scroll over to see them.

This is becoming very annoying problem, especially when I am using
TheBat! much more now.

I have not received any word back from RIT Labs on this problem as I
submitted a bug report on it.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Mark,

On 05 February 2001 at  15:47:18 -0500 (which was 20:47 where I  live)
Mark Knipfer wrote and made these points:

>> .. If you do this through a long threaded message discussion, you will
>> see the remaining Message List Columns just goes to the far right
>> where you have to right scroll over to see them.

MK> This is becoming very annoying problem, especially when I am using
MK> TheBat! much more now.

MK> I have not received any word back from RIT Labs on this problem as
MK> I submitted a bug report on it.

IMHO you probably won't. RITl labs have a strict policy of only
responding to the first originator of a new bug report.

While it is agreed that this is a problem for many, it is, however,
the way TB is *designed* to work rather than a "bug". By strict
definition a bug is what happens when a program fails to work as
intended. You are having a problem with the way the program has been
designed to work.

The TB programmers will, no doubt, think of a better design for this
for v2 but it is a fact that they will not be making any such
substantial alterations to the design of v1 while they are working
hard to produce v2. As I say, this is a *design* problem, not an
operational error.

Why it does it this way has already been explained in fairly good
detail and, while I sympathize with the frustration you feel, I can't
suggest any other way to help. Having said that, Allie Martin
suggested a very good way of using TB which makes the problem so much
*less* "in your face" and hardly a problem at all. I, too, use TB as
he described. Perhaps you should try that?

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:19:36 +, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

> >> .. If you do this through a long threaded message discussion, you will
> >> see the remaining Message List Columns just goes to the far right
> >> where you have to right scroll over to see them.
> 
> MK> I have not received any word back from RIT Labs on this problem as
> MK> I submitted a bug report on it.
> 
> IMHO you probably won't. RITl labs have a strict policy of only
> responding to the first originator of a new bug report.

If this is true, then this may not provide other TB! users enough
initiative to report program bugs and problems since their effort, time,
and work is not worthwhile to RIT Labs.

> While it is agreed that this is a problem for many, it is, however,
> the way TB is *designed* to work rather than a "bug". By strict
> definition a bug is what happens when a program fails to work as
> intended. You are having a problem with the way the program has been
> designed to work.

I have never seen an e-mail client designed to adjust the message columns
based on the Subject thread expansion.  This is the first ever.  If this
is not a bug and it is a design, then this should be referred to a design
flaw.  This reminds me of the Microsoft saying, "it is not a bug, but a
feature."  :)

> The TB programmers will, no doubt, think of a better design for this
> for v2 but it is a fact that they will not be making any such
> substantial alterations to the design of v1 while they are working
> hard to produce v2. As I say, this is a *design* problem, not an
> operational error.

I keep reading general references about TB! v2 without any estimated time
of releases or what may be in this version.  As it is now, I purchased TB!
v1.49 based on the features and how it mostly worked.  After purchasing
TB!, I noticed the message columns kept adjusting when the message threads
expanded.

I encountered two other bugs (or designs) in TB! 1.49 that will definitely
crash TB! 1.49:

#1:
When I press Ctrl-* to expand the message threads, if I would accidently
or mistakenly press Ctrl-* twice or more, TB! would crash.  There were
other times where I could not get the message columns to adjust back
within the message list area.  After exiting and running TB! again, I was
able to drag the message columns back.  Sometimes the Subject column would
disappear from a mail folder and I would need to add it back.  I have the
'Use the account default columns settings' selected in all of the mail
folders properties.  I also keep seeing the column widths randomly
adjusting in a variety of widths -- very small to wide.

#2:
The second bug (or design) is where I clicked ">>" to add all message
columns to the Selected Items: section.  I always receive the following
error:

  The Bat!

(X) List index out of bounds.

 << OK >>

In the 'Available Items' section the following remains:

  Message ID, Parking, To, Total Messages, and Unread Messages

In the 'Selected Items' column the following is present:

  Subject, From, Received, Size, Flagging, Attachments, Priority, 
  Colour Group, Created, Folder, Memo, and Message Flags

I found a few other bugs (or designs) in TB! 1.49 that crashes TB!.  After
one TB! crash today I was unable to read any messages in any mail folder.
This way after experiencing the above two problems back to back.  After
exiting and running TB! several times, I was able to read messages in the
mail folders.

After reading your first part of this message, this gives me no ambition
and initiative to report these problems to RIT Labs since they will
probably ignore them.  To me this shows the lack of interest to possibly
solve some current problems where they company could keep or gain more
customers.

> Why it does it this way has already been explained in fairly good
> detail and, while I sympathize with the frustration you feel, I can't
> suggest any other way to help. Having said that, Allie Martin
> suggested a very good way of using TB which makes the problem so much
> *less* "in your face" and hardly a problem at all. I, too, use TB as
> he described. Perhaps you should try that?

I may not have been subscribed to this mailing list when the detailed
reason and explanation was sent.  Could you cite the message from the
TBUDL archives for me?  Because when I searched the mailing list archives
I did not find any messages explaining this situation.

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Hi Mark,

On 06 February 2001 at  21:56:07 -0500 (which was 02:56 where I  live)
Mark Knipfer wrote and made these points:

>> IMHO you probably won't. RITl labs have a strict policy of only
>> responding to the first originator of a new bug report.

MK> If this is true, then this may not provide other TB! users enough
MK> initiative to report program bugs and problems since their effort,
MK> time, and work is not worthwhile to RIT Labs.

While this is absolutely true and not acceptable for a large and fully
staffed software house, those of us that are more used to the lack of
response from the less well endowed labs accept that they are busy
guys and submit bug reports wherever we can to make their job easier,
with or without feedback ;-).

To be fair, "Showstopper" bugs that are "every time" issues are
usually fixed with a few days (if that long). There aren't many bugs
like that left in TB. For the most part, it's pretty stable software.
What's more, it does the job it's supposed to do *extremely* well
IMHO.

>> .. You are having a problem with the way the program has been
>> designed to work.

MK> I have never seen an e-mail client designed to adjust the message
MK> columns based on the Subject thread expansion.

Nor have I. I didn't say that it was a *good* design. Actually, the
consensus (even from me) is that it isn't. I'm just trying to say that
*this* issue (shifting subject when expanding threads) is down to an
incorrect design decision that we're kind of stuck with right now.

MK> This is the first ever. If this is not a bug and it is a design,
MK> then this should be referred to a design flaw.

Agreed.

MK> This reminds me of the Microsoft saying, "it is not a bug, but a
MK> feature." :)

LOL. Understood, but disagreed for the current context .

MK> I keep reading general references about TB! v2 without any
MK> estimated time of releases or what may be in this version.

That's because all we have to go on are the published intentions of
RIT labs as specified in an interview last year and a trust that, once
the work has been done, we will be given the dates and schedules we're
all waiting for. It is the only opportunity we will see for
fundamental design flaws to be readdressed.

MK> I encountered two other bugs (or designs) in TB! 1.49 that will
MK> definitely crash TB! 1.49:

These are bugs for sure, not designs.

MK> #1:



I can't confirm this one :-(.

MK> #2:

MK> (X) List index out of bounds.

Confirmed!

MK> ... After exiting and running TB! several times, I was able to
MK> read messages in the mail folders.

Pass. I've not seen this happen and don't know how to make it happen
from your description.

MK> After reading your first part of this message, this gives me no
MK> ambition and initiative to report these problems to RIT Labs since
MK> they will probably ignore them.

Don't get me wrong. I said "don't expect a response". I didn't say
"you'll be ignored". There's quite a bit of difference. They certainly
read them all and, if 1) the problem description is sufficient to
allow them to reproduce it and 2) if the fix isn't going to break
anything else or take an inordinate amount of time for the improvement
in functionality then they will try to make the repair.



>> Why it does it this way has already been explained in fairly good
>> detail ...

MK> ... Could you cite the message from the TBUDL archives for me?

There have been several places where this behaviour has been
discussed. Firstly with TB v1.36

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:11:16 -0500
From: Ali Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Message list comments.

... and the ensuing thread. This was a very early conversation on
exactly the same point as you are making. You can see by this how far
back the issue has been complained about - and there has not been a
single defender of this design.

Then there was this thread...

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:46:34 +0200
From: Oliver Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Column width with threading

...and especially...

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:36:40 -0700
From: Ming-Li <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Column width with threading

... and an entire related thread.

Then, very recently ...

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:26:38 +1100
From: John Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Old Bat bug!

... and the ensuing explanations.

HTH.

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[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

TB! v1.49e S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 1

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:40:44 +, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:

> MK> If this is true, then this may not provide other TB! users enough
> MK> initiative to report program bugs and problems since their effort,
> MK> time, and work is not worthwhile to RIT Labs.
> 
> While this is absolutely true and not acceptable for a large and fully
> staffed software house, those of us that are more used to the lack of
> response from the less well endowed labs accept that they are busy
> guys and submit bug reports wherever we can to make their job easier,
> with or without feedback ;-).

I hate spending time analyzing, testing, and duplicating problems in a
program and sending them to the software company where they end up in the
Trash folder or /dev/null.  If I know my message(s) containing bug
reports, or design flaws :), will be hopefully acknowledge where the
problem will be fixed in the program, this is more initiative to send
those bug reports to RIT Labs.


> To be fair, "Showstopper" bugs that are "every time" issues are
> usually fixed with a few days (if that long). There aren't many bugs
> like that left in TB.

Hopefully RIT Labs can correct the Ctrl-* bug, what I refer to a bug since
it is easily reproducible here on several computers running Windows 2000,
and prevent TB! from crashing.  

> For the most part, it's pretty stable software.
> What's more, it does the job it's supposed to do *extremely* well
> IMHO.

TB! is a fabulous e-mail client.  If I did not experience the adjusting
message columns problem with enduring the Ctrl-* problem/bug too, I would
probably make TB! my primary e-mail client to use.  TB! runs fast and
seems to be very reliable.  However, there are few minor tasks that I do
in TB! that makes it crash.


> MK> I have never seen an e-mail client designed to adjust the message
> MK> columns based on the Subject thread expansion.
> 
> Nor have I. I didn't say that it was a *good* design. Actually, the
> consensus (even from me) is that it isn't. I'm just trying to say that
> *this* issue (shifting subject when expanding threads) is down to an
> incorrect design decision that we're kind of stuck with right now.

I thought you were first agreeing that the adjusting message columns when
expanding the message threads is a correct design.  I see now that you
agree and basically stating how it just works in TB!.  I cannot stand
threading messages by subject since I have always used threading by
references.  Once you attain yourself to a particular message reading
method, it is very hard to break the method.

> MK> This is the first ever. If this is not a bug and it is a design,
> MK> then this should be referred to a design flaw.
> 
> Agreed.

Wow!  We agree on something!  :)

> MK> This reminds me of the Microsoft saying, "it is not a bug, but a
> MK> feature." :)
> 
> LOL. Understood, but disagreed for the current context .

That was meant to be an aside remark.


> MK> I encountered two other bugs (or designs) in TB! 1.49 that will
> MK> definitely crash TB! 1.49:
> 
> These are bugs for sure, not designs.
> 
> MK> #1:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't confirm this one :-(.

I kept experience this bug where it about drove me crazy.  This is one of
the reasons why I am using Agent 1.8 right now rather than TB!.

> MK> #2:
> 
> MK> (X) List index out of bounds.
> 
> Confirmed!

What a bug.  :)


> MK> ... After exiting and running TB! several times, I was able to
> MK> read messages in the mail folders.
> 
> Pass. I've not seen this happen and don't know how to make it happen
> from your description.

I do not know how to make it happen again, but I experience this problem
twice today alone with unintentionally experiencing the problem.

> MK> After reading your first part of this message, this gives me no
> MK> ambition and initiative to report these problems to RIT Labs since
> MK> they will probably ignore them.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I said "don't expect a response". I didn't say
> "you'll be ignored". There's quite a bit of difference. They certainly
> read them all and, if 1) the problem description is sufficient to
> allow them to reproduce it and 2) if the fix isn't going to break
> anything else or take an inordinate amount of time for the improvement
> in functionality then they will try to make the repair.

It is hard not to have the feeling of being ignored when you receive no
response(s) back.  I am not talking about any automated or canned
responses, but a real response from a real human with insight to the
problem(s)/bug(s).

> MK> ... Could you cite the message from the TBUDL archives for me?
> 
> There have been several places where this behaviour has been
> discussed. Firstly with TB v1.36
> 
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:11:16 -0500
> From: Ali Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Message list comments.
> 
> ... and the ensuing thread. This was a very early conversation on
> exactly the same point as you are making. You can see by this how far
> ba

Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On 08 February 2001 at  19:36:33 -0500 (which was 00:36 where I  live)
Mark Knipfer wrote and made these points:

>> I would very much like to learn, what you think could be a
>> better solution.

MK> This question alone shows the lack of experience you have with other
MK> e-mail clients.

WADR it shows that Jannik would be interested to hear a constructive
view from you as to what could adequately replace the current design
and still satisfy the users who already find the current design more
than acceptable; users who might see retrograde aspects in copying
some of the other solutions which may better suit your expectations.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.


It is not acceptable for you to make a judgement call on what Jannik's
experience may or may not be. That constitutes a derogatory personal
remark (albeit politely put) and is expressly against the rules of
these lists.



I have twice tried to move this thread to TBTECH. On the TBUDL list, I
now pronounce the horse dead.


- --
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[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

Mark Knipfer wrote:

MK>> This question alone shows the lack of experience you have with
MK>> other e-mail clients.

> WADR

What does WADR mean?  I have no idea what the acronym means.

> it shows that Jannik would be interested to hear a constructive view
> from you as to what could adequately replace the current design and
> still satisfy the users who already find the current design more
> than acceptable; users who might see retrograde aspects in copying
> some of the other solutions which may better suit your expectations.

I currently do not have the time to write a constructive view.

> You can't please all of the people all of the time.

I deal with these situations daily.

> 
> It is not acceptable for you to make a judgement call on what
> Jannik's experience may or may not be. That constitutes a derogatory
> personal remark (albeit politely put) and is expressly against the
> rules of these lists.
> 

My remarks were not intended to be derogatory, nor to belittle
Jannik.  If Jannik and others read my remarks in that tone, I
apologize.

> 
> I have twice tried to move this thread to TBTECH. On the TBUDL list,
> I now pronounce the horse dead.
> 

I did not read your message about moving the discussion to the other
list until I responded to the message.  Only after I read your message
that I knew you moved the discussion to the TBTECH list.

-- 
Mark Knipfer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Marek Mikus]

Hello all,
Tuesday, February 06, 2001, Mark Knipfer wrote:

>> While this is absolutely true and not acceptable for a large and fully
>> staffed software house, those of us that are more used to the lack of
>> response from the less well endowed labs accept that they are busy
>> guys and submit bug reports wherever we can to make their job easier,
>> with or without feedback ;-).

> I hate spending time analyzing, testing, and duplicating problems in a
> program and sending them to the software company where they end up in the
> Trash folder or /dev/null.

As I know, Stefan spends '6'!!! hours daily for mail support. If they
will answer each bugreport and suggestion, when will they create code
for TB? Nevermind!

-- 

Bye

Marek Mikus

Using the best The Bat! 1.49e
under the worst Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
Intel Celeron 266 MHz, 96 MB RAM

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Re[2]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Jan Rifkinson]

Hello Mark,

On Monday, February 05, 2001 21:56:07 [ -0500 GMT], you wrote the
following in regards to '! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the
right, message threading':

Mark> [...] no ambition and initiative to report these problems to RIT
Mark> Labs since they will probably ignore them. To me this shows the
Mark> lack of interest to possibly solve some current problems where
Mark> they company could keep or gain more customers. [...]

  IMO this comment speaks to your own personal frustration about a
  known problem which you've generalized by assuming that "they will
  probably ignore them [bug reports, suggestions].

  From my personal experience I can tell you that I have rcvd a
  personal response from one of the programmers *every* time I have
  reported a problem or offered a suggestion. My conclusion: they
  don't ignore these msgs; they answer those that they can resolve
  quickly, be it "you're right, we have to fix that" to "this is how
  you solve your problem".

  IMO they ignore those problems that are more cosmetic (albeit
  annoying) so they can focus on v2. Its a matter of triage or
  priority. We all have little issues here & there as we would with
  *any* piece of software, but my bet is, as a group, we'd rather see
  that small band @ RIT Labs focus on v2 & all its promised to be,
  rather than using valuable resources to fix what are generally
  considered non-essential issues.

-- 
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Using TB! v1.49
ICQ 41116329



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Re[2]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Jannik Lindquist]

Hello Mark and other TBUDL's,

On Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:47:18 GMT -0500 Mark Knipfer wrote on "!
1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading":

>> BUG: I found one annoying bug.  In a message thread if you click on the plus
>> signs throughout the entire message thread, you will notice the Message List
>> Columns to the right will gradually move to the right. If you do this through
>> a long threaded message discussion, you will see the remaining Message List
>> Columns just goes to the far right where you have to right scroll over to see
>> them.

MK> This is becoming very annoying problem, especially when I am using
MK> TheBat! much more now.

I would very much like to learn, what you think could be a better solution. It
seems to me that you are asking the impossible, if you want TB to solve all
threading problems on the amount of space that your split-mode allows. IMHO, it
is better to think of the threading-possibilities in the list-view as a generous
bonus - and then do serious thread-reading in the folder-view. When this is
said, I will the first to admit, that the folder-view can be a bit cumbersome,
as well. At present, I have expanded the "Message List"-view (in the
folder-view) to almost full screen and then toggles this "Message List"-view on
and off (using Alt+V+M). This works great for me - but it would be nice with
more advanced options for toggling the message list-view on and off (full
screen/half screen/off).

As you probably know, the news reader Agent solves all these problems by

1) putting a limit on how many follow up-levels there can be in a thread

and

2) allowing control of the degree of indentation of the follow-ups

In my opinion, 1) is a very poor solution and is one of the main reasons, I gave
up Agent as an e-mail reader (and became a TB-user :-)). Is it really something
like this, that you want for TB?


--
Best regards,
Jannik Lindquist

The Bat! Ver. 1.49
Windows 98 4 10   A 

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Re[3]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[John Phillips]

Hello

Tuesday, February 06, 2001, 8:48:09 AM, someone claiming to be 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> As you probably know, the news reader Agent solves all these
> problems by

> 1) putting a limit on how many follow up-levels there can be in a thread

> and

> 2) allowing control of the degree of indentation of the follow-ups

> In my opinion, 1) is a very poor solution and is one of the main reasons, I gave
> up Agent as an e-mail reader (and became a TB-user :-)). Is it really something
> like this, that you want for TB?

Personally I do.  I have no problems with the way Agent threads, and
IMHO is much more useful than Bat!  Gravity News Reader also threads
this way, and if the Bat! developers have time, they may wish to look
to Gravity re keeping topics in the correct threads.  Even if someone
changes a topic in reply (just to be clever, for example), Gravity
still threads correctly.

-- 
Regards
John Phillips Sydney, Australia
Bat! 1.49 Windows 98 4.10 Build   ASony Vaio Notebook PCG-505TS Pentium 300 
64meg ram

-=( Revolt against awkward/ugly software. )=-

(This was a random thread, but quite appropriate!)



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Re: Re[2]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:54:59 +0100, Marek Mikus wrote:

> As I know, Stefan spends '6'!!! hours daily for mail support. If they
> will answer each bugreport and suggestion, when will they create code
> for TB? Nevermind!

I agree.  A programmer's time is better spent coding rather than answering
e-mail.  I know this very well since I do work for a software company, I
am their technical solutionist.


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Re: Re[2]: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading

[Mark Knipfer]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:48:09 +0100, Jannik Lindquist wrote:

> I would very much like to learn, what you think could be a 
> better solution.

This question alone shows the lack of experience you have with other
e-mail clients.

> It seems to me that you are asking the impossible, if you want TB to 
> solve all threading problems on the amount of space that your split-
> mode allows.

The problem is where the Subject: columns suddenly moves to the right.
Did you read my initial messages that explained this?  I detailed what
occurs, the design flaw, and it supposedly did not do this in earlier TB1
releases.  Thus, this seems like a bug (or design flaw) that will
hopefully fixed.

> IMHO, it is better to think of the threading-possibilities in the 
> list-view as a generous bonus - and then do serious thread-reading in 
> the folder-view. 

Huh?

> When this is said, I will the first to admit, that the folder-view 
> can be a bit cumbersome, as well. At present, I have expanded the 
> "Message List"-view (in the folder-view) to almost full screen and 
> then toggles this "Message List"-view on and off (using Alt+V+M). 
> This works great for me - but it would be nice with more advanced 
> options for toggling the message list-view on and off (full
> screen/half screen/off).
> 
> As you probably know, the news reader Agent solves all these 
> problems by
> 
> 1) putting a limit on how many follow up-levels there can be in a thread
> 
> and
> 
> 2) allowing control of the degree of indentation of the follow-ups

There is no maximum per se, but there is a maximum threading level where
it will display messages in a thread.  In Agent 1.8 if you set the
'Follow-Up Indentation:' to 3 and 'Maximum Follow-Up Level:' to 15, this
helps makes more messages properly thread.  However, the limitation to
message threading still exists.

**
> In my opinion, 1) is a very poor solution and is one of the main 
> reasons, I gave up Agent as an e-mail reader (and became a TB-user :-)).
> Is it really something like this, that you want for TB?

You did not understand my problem in my message.  I am not suggesting any
threading limitations or such implementations.  If you use Netscape
Communicator 4.x and other threading e-mail clients that do threading on
References and Message-ID's, you will see what I am referring to.  Message
threading itself in TB! is good, however, the constant adjusting of the
Subject message column is not.

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DEAD HORSE (was Re: ! 1.49: Message Column Lists moves to the right, message threading)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On 08 February 2001 at  21:01:38 -0500 (which was 02:01 where I  live)
Mark Knipfer wrote and made these points:

>> WADR

MK> What does WADR mean?  I have no idea what the acronym means.

"With all due respect".

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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