Re: LinuxBat now!

[Christopher J. Trybowski]

Hello Arno,
On Saturday, April 15, 2000 you wrote:

> Opera Software, I agree, has been a bit - how am I going to put this
> politically  correct :-) - too enthousiatic when proclaiming version
> 4.0.

Yes,  I  have  tested beta1 and it displayed pages worse than 3.60. Of
course   some  of  them  were  displayed better, but in overall it was
terrible.  I  have  tested  b3  only for a few minutes and it seems no
better. I will send some info on Opera list soon.

> However, Opera is the leading browser on CSS technology and has been
> that ever since CSS made it's appearance.

More or less. It supports some attributes which aren't supported by IE
and  NN,  but on the other hand it doesn't support such a simple thing
as   (I have to use bgcolor=).
Of course this was about v. 3.60, I dunno about 4.

> It  helped  people working on low-power systems to surf the Web in a
> normal way. It's speed is overwhelming when compared to IE and NS.

I must agree with this. I had a 486dx4/100 with 16 MB RAM and I ran
win95 with Opera with no problems.

> It  has  all  kind of - for some people irrelevant, but very handy -
> features as
(...)

Turning off graphics in a one click. *That* is great!

> Your taskbar is not getting filled with tons of seperate windows, you
> can switch between different sites in an instant,

I feel the same.

> Opera 3.60 has hanged two times in one and a half year at my system.
> That extends the crashes of IE with thousands of percents.

Here  it  had hanged until I had enlarged my swap file to 50 MB. Later
it was working OK.

> It displays incorrect HTML incorrectly. As did Netscape in it's good
> days.

Not  really,  it fails to display many attributes which are correct in
HTML.  And  Netscape  now  displays  incorrectly  even  correct  HTML.
Seriously I must say, that I hate NN for this.

One  thing  that  really  sucks  in Opera is the lack of international
support. This is essential for many users. And implementing this isn't
complicated  at  all.  Opera  only  has  to select correct font script
(adequate  to  that  the  charset definition says) and make some small
transcriptions  (I'm writing about Latin-based languages, like Polish,
which requires only six characters to be changed upon displaying). One
of  Polish users even wrote a patch that replaces Opera's registration
procedure  with  the  one  that  replaces  these  six  characters (Iso
charset) with the ones from CP. But it only worked in ver. 3.60.

Of  course  I have heard about the plans to include Unicode support in
4.1, but this is a way around -- Unicode is much more complicated than
what I wrote above.

This off-topic has gotten quite large, sorry :). EOT ;)

-- 
Christopher J. Trybowski 
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Re: (OT) LinuxBat now!

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, April 15, 2000, 8:53:34 AM, Alexander wrote:
> Okay, my _own_ experience: AMD 5x86-133 CPU overclocked to 160 MHz,
> 16 Megs of RAM, Windows'95 OSR2 Russian (this is the system I had two 
> years ago). Netscape 4 worked just fine, Opera... well, it kinda worked;-))) 

K6-200, 64Mb RAM, Win95 OSR2 & Win98SE
Celeron-400, 128Mb RAM, Win98SE
PII-200, 128Mb RAM, WinNT 4SP5(?)

>> speed is overwhelming when compared to IE and NS.

> I cannot confirm this. Launching speed on slow systems -- yes, but only 
> _launching_ speed.

I see an overall speed boost.  I have Opera (Esp. 4.0 betas) displaying
the page well before the others do.  I find that I often will browse 5-7 pages
at a time with no problems.

>> Alexander>some versions also leak terribly.
>> 
>> Ah well, the spoiled-coffee spots on my desk are worse :-)

> Memory leaks can be fatal for the systems with low resources, at which 
> systems you say Opera is aimed at.

I've never seen Opera have a memory leak.  At work (WinNT system) Opera is
shut down only when WinNT is shut down (once a week, if that) because I never
shut any program down at night.  I come in, unlock my terminal, continue where
I left off.  Opera 4.0b2, up since last Wed, 9.8Mb according to task manager.
Shutdown, restart, 9.6Mb.  The page that I loaded up had less data on it (my
work status page, I've not done anything yet today so it is empty).  So even
being liberal and calling that 200kb a memory leak that is for 3 business days
worth of work and up for 5 straight days.

Let's compare.

NS 4.5, same page: 12Mb
IE 5, same page: 10.5Mb (but how much of that is hidden in the OS,
 *snort*)
NS 6PR1, same page: 26Mb

So, given 200k in 3 business days' usage, I'd need a good 5 days for it to
leak to IE's /reported/ level (which I don't trust), ~13 days to get to NS 4.5
level and 85 days to get to NS6PR1's level.  That is also just for one basic
page, not the 5-7 or more I get when reading /. or internal sites.  Let's not
forget to mention that IE and NS both leak as well.  Hmmm...

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: Re: LinuxBat now!

[Arno van Stralen]

Leif,

Saturday, April 15, 2000, 7:32:36 PM, schreef je:

Leif> 

AvS>> There's nothing better than off-topic discussions :-)

Leif> Yeah, but we do try to keep them to a minimum. Please take this
Leif> discussion off-list.

I fully understand that and the remark was solely meant as a joke; not
as a serious request for hundereds of off-topic discussions.

I'll keep it to the bats from now on. :-)

-- 

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 Arnomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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OT: Re: LinuxBat now!

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Arno, 

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 at 16:44:14 [GMT +0200], you wrote:


AvS> There's nothing better than off-topic discussions :-)

Yeah, but we do try to keep them to a minimum. Please take this
discussion off-list. Especially since a good number of subscribers to
TBUDL pay for their Internet connection on a bandwidth basis as
opposed to a flat monthly fee.

Thank you.


Leif Gregory 

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Re: LinuxBat now!

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 15 Apr 00, at 16:44, Arno van Stralen wrote
about "Re[2]: LinuxBat now!":

> Opera Software, I agree, has been a bit - how am I going to put this
> politically correct :-) - too enthousiatic when proclaiming version
> 4.0. However, Opera is the leading browser on CSS technology and has
> been that ever since CSS made it's appearance. It helped people
> working on low-power systems to surf the Web in a normal way. 

Okay, my _own_ experience: AMD 5x86-133 CPU overclocked to 160 MHz, 
16 Megs of RAM, Windows'95 OSR2 Russian (this is the system I had two 
years ago). Netscape 4 worked just fine, Opera... well, it kinda worked;-))) 

> speed is overwhelming when compared to IE and NS. 

I cannot confirm this. Launching speed on slow systems -- yes, but only 
_launching_ speed.



> Opera 3.60 has hanged two times in one and a half year at my system.
> That extends the crashes of IE with thousands of percents.

Did you ever install it on _localized_ Windows system?;-)

> Alexander> , it GPFs (the ONLY triple GPF I've seen this month was Opera's),
> 
> It does WHAT? :-)

Exactly what I have written;-)

> Alexander>some versions also leak terribly.
> 
> Ah well, the spoiled-coffee spots on my desk are worse :-)

Memory leaks can be fatal for the systems with low resources, at which 
systems you say Opera is aimed at.

> 
> 
> You've got a choice! If you haven't experienced our competitors' products,
> this may be the right time to do it. We believe that in order to appreciate
> the size and speed of Opera you need to see them first, but we warn you of
> extremely large file size, extensive download times, as well as hard disk and
> processor requirements. The rest we leave up to you to judge. 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen that on microsoft.com of Netcenter?

Thanks to god, no. It's a good example of "comparative advertisement", 
which's forbidden in Russia by our laws.

> There's nothing better than off-topic discussions :-)

I'd suggest returning to TB-related issues though;-)

-- 
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Re[2]: LinuxBat now!

[Christian Dysthe]

Hello Alexander,

Saturday, April 15, 2000, 8:34:56 AM, you wrote:

AVK> Hi there!

AVK> On 14 Apr 00, at 22:44, Christian Dysthe wrote
AVK>     about "LinuxBat now!":

>>   I prefer Linux, I NEED The Bat! for my work. How do we make this
>>   port happen? I mean, I work for Opera Software, we are doing a Linux
>>   port of our browser because we see a market there.

AVK> 

AVK> I _really_ hope there will be no market for Opera;-) I've installed Opera five 
AVK> (!!!) times here, starting with I believe 3.something, ending with 4/beta. I 
AVK> _fully_ support the loud voices I hear these days: "They told they've done a 
AVK> _real_ browser, but did absolutely nothing". It hangs, it fails to display HTML 
AVK> correctly, it GPFs (the ONLY triple GPF I've seen this month was Opera's), 
AVK> some versions also leak terribly.  

AVK> IMO, Opera's success has an exact nature of M$'s one: the clever marketing 
AVK> policy claiming that it's "a new type of the browser: less bloated, but only 
AVK> _slightly_ less-functional, really user-friendly". It's a lie! It's like M$'s 
AVK> marketing, only reversed: exploiting people's _dislike_ towards M$-like 
AVK> applications. But the plain ugly truth is that it's only a marketing slogan and 
AVK> _nothing_ else. 

AVK> 

>>   The Bat! would wipe the competition away on that platform in a week,
>>   and people would pay. I would, a lot would because most e-mail
>>   software on Linux...ummm...sucks? :)

AVK> The Bat is a Delphi product and as such it will be ported to Linux _after_ 
AVK> Corel/Inprise finishes the port of Delphi.


I am not going to take this discussion here, I suggest Alexander uses
Opera's news groups and mailing list for this. We would love to hear
his comments there!

However, basing ones view on software solely on ones own experience is
totally allowed, but shouldn't lead to a dismissal of the software and
it's potential success. It takes more than one unhappy user to created a
software failure.

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 Christianmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ICQ: 3945810

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Re[2]: LinuxBat now!

[Arno van Stralen]

Alexander,

Saturday, April 15, 2000, 3:34:56 PM, schreef je:

Alexander> 

Alexander> I _really_ hope there will be no market for Opera;-) I've installed Opera 
five 
Alexander> (!!!) times here, starting with I believe 3.something, ending with 4/beta. 
I 
Alexander> _fully_ support the loud voices I hear these days: "They told they've done 
a 
Alexander> _real_ browser, but did absolutely nothing".

Opera Software, I agree, has been a bit - how am I going to put this
politically correct :-) - too enthousiatic when proclaiming version
4.0. However, Opera is the leading browser on CSS technology and has
been that ever since CSS made it's appearance. It helped people
working on low-power systems to surf the Web in a normal way. It's
speed is overwhelming when compared to IE and NS. It has all kind of
- for some people irrelevant, but very handy - features as displaying your "waiting 
line
position", the Hotlist idea, extremely well keyboard navigation
possibilities, automatic domain completion (e.g. you can type
grafix/help , which redirects you to http://www.grafix.nl/help or .com
or .net or whatever extensions you have told Opera to look for).
Your taskbar is not getting filled with tons of seperate windows, you
can switch between different sites in an instant, it gives a beautiful
listing of files you are retrieving (which comes out handy when you
have a cable connection :-) et cetera et cetera. The list of small but
valueable features is way, way, way too long to write down in a
mailing list about The Bat!, though.

However, the main goal of a browser still is displaying HTML in an
understandable way. I must confess Opera is not useful for extremely
multimedia-orientated sites. It's absolutely not worse than IE and NS
for 99% of the sites, though.

Alexander>  It hangs

Opera 3.60 has hanged two times in one and a half year at my system.
That extends the crashes of IE with thousands of percents.

Alexander> , it fails to display HTML 
Alexander> correctly

It displays incorrect HTML incorrectly. As did Netscape in it's good
days.

Alexander> , it GPFs (the ONLY triple GPF I've seen this month was Opera's),

It does WHAT? :-)

Alexander>some versions also leak terribly.

Ah well, the spoiled-coffee spots on my desk are worse :-)

Alexander> IMO, Opera's success has an exact nature of M$'s one: the clever marketing 
Alexander> policy claiming that it's "a new type of the browser: less bloated, but 
only 
Alexander> _slightly_ less-functional, really user-friendly". It's a lie! It's like 
M$'s 
Alexander> marketing, only reversed: exploiting people's _dislike_ towards M$-like 
Alexander> applications. But the plain ugly truth is that it's only a marketing slogan 
and 
Alexander> _nothing_ else.

opera.com, download page:



You've got a choice!
If you haven't experienced our competitors' products, this may be the right time to do 
it. We believe that in order 
to appreciate the size and speed of Opera you need to see them first, but we warn you 
of extremely large file size,
extensive download times, as well as hard disk and processor requirements. The rest we 
leave up to you to judge.



Have you seen that on microsoft.com of Netcenter?

Alexander> 

There's nothing better than off-topic discussions :-)

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 Arnomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: LinuxBat now!

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 14 Apr 00, at 22:44, Christian Dysthe wrote
about "LinuxBat now!":

>   I prefer Linux, I NEED The Bat! for my work. How do we make this
>   port happen? I mean, I work for Opera Software, we are doing a Linux
>   port of our browser because we see a market there.



I _really_ hope there will be no market for Opera;-) I've installed Opera five 
(!!!) times here, starting with I believe 3.something, ending with 4/beta. I 
_fully_ support the loud voices I hear these days: "They told they've done a 
_real_ browser, but did absolutely nothing". It hangs, it fails to display HTML 
correctly, it GPFs (the ONLY triple GPF I've seen this month was Opera's), 
some versions also leak terribly.  

IMO, Opera's success has an exact nature of M$'s one: the clever marketing 
policy claiming that it's "a new type of the browser: less bloated, but only 
_slightly_ less-functional, really user-friendly". It's a lie! It's like M$'s 
marketing, only reversed: exploiting people's _dislike_ towards M$-like 
applications. But the plain ugly truth is that it's only a marketing slogan and 
_nothing_ else. 



>   The Bat! would wipe the competition away on that platform in a week,
>   and people would pay. I would, a lot would because most e-mail
>   software on Linux...ummm...sucks? :)

The Bat is a Delphi product and as such it will be ported to Linux _after_ 
Corel/Inprise finishes the port of Delphi.

-- 
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Re[2]: LinuxBat now!

[Christian Dysthe]

Hello Patrick,

Saturday, April 15, 2000, 2:10:46 AM, you wrote:

PE> hallo Christian!


PE> so do the following: talk to the guys at ritlab, help them porting,
PE> throw away (i mean FAR away) that kind of mail-client you wrote for
PE> opera (and throw that newsreader-part even further beyond the edge of
PE> this world), loosely integrate the bat into opera (no Steve, not
PE> integrate, i mean establish a connectivity interface which works in
PE> linux too (in windows it is already implemented as we know), but do
PE> so, that if you like you can tightly integrate it for set-top-boxes
PE> and you are done..

PE> do the same with xnews (the windows one http://xnews.3dnews.net/ (you
PE> see steve, i didn't attach the file! ;)

PE> but all this isn't possible with the manpower opera has. IMHO opera
PE> lacks a chief designer... they have good coders, but i cannot see a
PE> direction in interface and a vision for this browser...

PE> i did it again... please beware of the off-topic trap when
PE> answering... thanks,

Funny, there are millions of Windows programs and only a very very few
programs that really shine. The Bat! does, Xnews does, Notetab Pro
does, Irfanview does and a couple of others).

A Bat/Opera/Xnews "bundle" would be a killer. The problem we have is
that we do not get acceptance as a browser without integrated mail and
news. The word "browser" today means a program that does all this. We
have heard this from press people over and over, so to even be
considered for high ratings when software is reviewed we needed these
services (and it worked, ZDnet gave us 5 stars for the first time this
week because of added mail and news, NS 6 got 4!)

You might want to look into removing the mail dll from the Opera directory
and voila! mail is gone and The Bat! can reign alone. So you see, we
have been thinking modular.

In a perfect world the secondary services in a browser widely be optional.
We might make that happen in the final Opera 4.00 because we know that for
mail there are killer apps out there like...yes The Bat! which is
widely in use at Opera Software both in Oslo and in the US.

Slight "off topicness" here also. Bear with me! :)


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 Christianmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ICQ: 3945810

 "I'm not tense, just terribly terribly alert!"

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Re: LinuxBat now!

[Patrick Erler]

hallo Christian!

on Saturday, April 15, 2000, 5:44:29 AM, you wrote:

CD> Hello TBUDL,

CD>   I prefer Linux, I NEED The Bat! for my work. How do we make this
CD>   port happen? I mean, I work for Opera Software, we are doing a Linux
CD>   port of our browser because we see a market there.

CD>   The Bat! would wipe the competition away on that platform in a week,
CD>   and people would pay. I would, a lot would because most e-mail
CD>   software on Linux...ummm...sucks? :)
so do the following: talk to the guys at ritlab, help them porting,
throw away (i mean FAR away) that kind of mail-client you wrote for
opera (and throw that newsreader-part even further beyond the edge of
this world), loosely integrate the bat into opera (no Steve, not
integrate, i mean establish a connectivity interface which works in
linux too (in windows it is already implemented as we know), but do
so, that if you like you can tightly integrate it for set-top-boxes
and you are done..

do the same with xnews (the windows one http://xnews.3dnews.net/ (you
see steve, i didn't attach the file! ;)

but all this isn't possible with the manpower opera has. IMHO opera
lacks a chief designer... they have good coders, but i cannot see a
direction in interface and a vision for this browser...

i did it again... please beware of the off-topic trap when
answering... thanks,



PAT
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LinuxBat now!

[Christian Dysthe]

Hello TBUDL,

  I prefer Linux, I NEED The Bat! for my work. How do we make this
  port happen? I mean, I work for Opera Software, we are doing a Linux
  port of our browser because we see a market there.

  The Bat! would wipe the competition away on that platform in a week,
  and people would pay. I would, a lot would because most e-mail
  software on Linux...ummm...sucks? :)


-- 
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 Christian  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ICQ: 3945810

 "I'm not tense, just terribly terribly alert!"


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