Re: OT : Bahasa [ was Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...]

[Thomas]

Hallo Syafril,

On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:14:10 +0700 GMT (21/01/2001, 04:14 +0800 GMT),
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:

>>> According to my Kamus, the word "challenge" is "tantangan" in Bahasa.

SH> No,  Thomas  correct with his Kamus (Thomas, you surprise me with your
SH> word  ).

I have travelled in Indonesia and Malaysia and remembered the name of
my little helper. ;-) Anyway, I looked the word "challenge" up under
www.yourdictionary.com

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.
Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste.

-Love is blind but like is just too freaked out to see straight. 

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Syafril,

On  20  January  2001 at 03:14:46 +0700 (which was 20:14 where I live)
Syafril Hermansyah wrote and made these points:

>>> As  for  the  footer,  it  is necessary, as most people (including
>>> myself)  don't  always  look  at  the  header,  but  "where is the
>>> archive"  is  one  of  those  questions  that  come  up  too often
>>> otherwise.

U>> Couldn't  an alternative for that be to skip the footer and instead
U>> send   a   message  containing  "where  is  the  archive"  kind  of
U>> information once a week?

SH> That's not bad idea, I can do this automatically (using NT
SH> scheduler) if List Owner wish :-)

I  would  rather  exclude the headers. The footer is a lot smaller now
and  includes  the unsubscribe link and a reference to TBTECH. I don't
think  that the "you are subscribed as" line makes a lot of difference
either.  Those  that  are  going  to  try unsubscribing from the wrong
address  don't pay any attention to it anyway, so it serves no purpose
IMHO.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Urban,

On  Sat, 20 Jan 2001 at 20:06:21 GMT +0100(which was 1/21/2001 2:06 AM
where you think I live) you told to the list :

>> As  for  the  footer,  it  is  necessary, as most people (including
>> myself) don't always look at the header, but "where is the archive"
>> is one of those questions that come up too often otherwise.

U> Couldn't  an alternative for that be to skip the footer and instead
U> send   a   message  containing  "where  is  the  archive"  kind  of
U> information once a week?

That's  not bad idea, I can do this automatically (using NT scheduler)
if List Owner wish :-)

--
Best regards,

- Syafril -
..Opinion expressed are only mine
*
Name  : Syafril Hermansyah  |Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama
Mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
FAXto : (62)(21)351-9241 key:000FAX |URL : 
*
Created : Sunday, January 21, 2001, 3:06:08 AM GMT +0700

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OT : Bahasa [ was Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...]

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello solid snake,

On  Sat, 20 Jan 2001 at 17:01:09 GMT +0700(which was 1/21/2001 5:01 PM
where you think I live) you told to Thomas on this list :

>> According to my Kamus, the word "challenge" is "tantangan" in Bahasa.

ss> You mean in "Bahasa Indonesia" ? Bahasa means "Languange"

No,  Thomas  correct with his Kamus (Thomas, you surprise me with your
word  ).  "Bahasa"  refer  to "Bahasa Melayu" who currently used by
Indonesian, Malaysian and some of Singapore people. On Singapore or
Malaysia, this language commonly said as "Bahasa".

--
Best regards,

- Syafril -
..Opinion expressed are only mine
*
Name  : Syafril Hermansyah  |Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama
Mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
FAXto : (62)(21)351-9241 key:000FAX |URL : 
*
Created : Sunday, January 21, 2001, 3:08:44 AM GMT +0700

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello Marck D. Pearlstone,

On  Sat, 20 Jan 2001 at 11:37:31 GMT +(which was 1/21/2001 6:37 PM
where you think I live) you told to the list :

[ ... ]

MDP> I  believe  that  Lija's point is that these headers are somewhat
MDP> verbose,  redundant  and  represent a theft of bandwidth, whether
MDP> they  are visible or not. And, do you know, I actually agree with
MDP> (him?).

BC>> I suspect Marck will be shooting this horse very soon.

MDP> I  am shooting the horse indeed, but only on TBUDL and not before
MDP> saying  that  Lija  has my full sympathy and I will be discussing
MDP> the  removal of these headers with Syafril as soon as he emerges.
MDP> Their purpose is moot since TB doesn't support these list traffic
MDP> headers.

I  just  on-line (sorry in normal I was not on-line on Saturday/Sunday
unless my pager beep due Server problem or Marck Wake Up me).

Some  part  of  the  header  for MTA Recipient purpose (especially for
Postmaster)  and me as List Manager just in case the delivering of the
messages  failed.  When  the message from the listserver distribute to
final recipient, not always going stright to final MTA, sometimes goes
first to Relayer (for example bigfoot account do like this).

Some  MTA  tend  to  truncated  the  message content while the message
header  keep  intact  for  further analysis or tracing who responsible
when  Delivery  of  message failed and to whom address the mail to fix
the problem, if not they will treat the message came from the spammer
(UCE) and make blocking (from ListServer POV, blocking is waste the
bandwith resources :-().

Other part of headers is for our (ListServer) purpose.

I  can  truncate  some  headers, such as Original Sender Route to this
listserver  such  EZMLM  ListServer  did,  but  the  weakness  of this
approach,  if  there is problem on message Delivery or others (such as
Message  Duplicating  by  Open Relay MTA etc), I the only one can find
out  the real problem (by reading ListServer logs), it's very hurt due
the  logs size sometimes more than 200 MB size/day and I am not always
online.  With current conditions, all list member can help me or Marck
to find out what's the real problem.

MDP> Having  said  that,  they are part of a standard. I'm not sure if
MDP> it's RFC - anyone know? If so, please reply on TBTECH only.

RFC-2369, we discussed this long time ago on TBBETA list.

Unfortunately  our  TB not supported this RFC yet, so TB can't utilize
those  kind  of  header  (Pegasus  is  one  of the mailer that support
RFC-2369,  if member of this list using Pegasus 3.x, he/she knows what
I meant).

--
Best regards,

- Syafril -
..Opinion expressed are only mine
*
Name  : Syafril Hermansyah  |Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama
Mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |Voice   : (62) (21) 385-1600
FAXto : (62)(21)351-9241 key:000FAX |URL : 
*
Created : Sunday, January 21, 2001, 3:00:43 AM AM GMT +0700

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Urban]

Saturday, January 20, 2001, Thomas wrote:

> As for the footer, it is necessary, as most people (including myself)
> don't always look at the header, but "where is the archive" is one of
> those questions that come up too often otherwise.

Couldn't an alternative for that be to skip the footer and instead send
a message containing "where is the archive" kind of information once a
week?

-- 
 Urban
 
 I may still be on Windows 95 B, but that doesn't stop me from running TB! 1.49



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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Peter,

On  20  January  2001 at 13:35:17 +0100 (which was 12:35 where I live)
Peter Steiner wrote and made these points:

PS> ... a moderator declares a _thread_ to be a dead horse. In no case
PS> Brian meant that _you_ were a horse!

Thanks  Peter  -  I missed that. You are quite right. This thread *is*
dead here on the UDL but can continue on TBTECH.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Peter Steiner]

Hello Lija and other batters

(Sorry Marck to reply to this thread declared closed by you, but I
think it's necessary)

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:29:43 +0100, Lija wrote:

BC>> I suspect Marck will be shooting this horse very soon.

L> H, it is very sad to hear something like this in non-political forum
L> I thought we Serbs were the worst nation on the Earth, but now... I feel relief.
L> Thank you Brian very much. Your primer will be my reminder. Thank you again!

Your comment makes me wonder if you understood what Brain meant with
shooting a horse. As you are pretty new to this list, you may not have
encountered these long threads, where the same arguments return in
circles and then a moderator declares a _thread_ to be a dead horse.
In no case Brian meant that _you_ were a horse!

Have a nice day

Peter
-- 
Peter Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Brian,

On  20  January  2001 at 05:58:47 -0500 (which was 10:58 where I live)
Brian Clark wrote and made these points:

L>> Oh Jesus... here we go again:

BC> SooOOOoo hostile. ;-) You sound like someone I know on another list.

Okay folks - let's veer away from the "personal" here please.

L>> A bit of mess, right? :)

BC> Yes. And the funny thing is, I don't see ANY of that unless I press
BC> Ctrl+Shift+K

I  believe  that  Lija's  point  is  that  these  headers are somewhat
verbose,  redundant  and  represent a theft of bandwidth, whether they
are visible or not. And, do you know, I actually agree with (him?).

BC> I suspect Marck will be shooting this horse very soon.

I  am  shooting  the  horse  indeed,  but only on TBUDL and not before
saying  that  Lija  has  my full sympathy and I will be discussing the
removal  of  these  headers  with Syafril as soon as he emerges. Their
purpose is moot since TB doesn't support these list traffic headers.

Having  said  that,  they are part of a standard. I'm not sure if it's
RFC - anyone know? If so, please reply on TBTECH only.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA / TBTECH
 
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[Any opinions are my own and not those of RIT labs   ]

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Gerd Ewald]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello solid snake !


On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:01:09 +0700 GMT your local time,
which was 20.01.2001, 11:01 (GMT+0100) where I live, you wrote:

>  FYI,
For Your Information
>  CMIIW
Correct Me If I'm Wrong
>  IMO
In My Opinion
>  IMHO
In My Humble Opinion

AFAIK
As Far As I Know

AFAICS
As Far As I Can See



- --
Best regards,
 Gerd
==
Using The Bat! Version 1.49
PGP-Keys on request mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=send_key
- 
Erwerbsregel #191
Ein Ferengi wartet mit dem Bieten, bis seine Gegner sich selbst erschöpft haben.

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Brian Clark]

Hello Lija, 

(L == "Lija") [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

L> Oh Jesus... here we go again:

SooOOOoo hostile. ;-) You sound like someone I know on another list.





L> Does this look like From/Reply-To/Subject etc. fields:

No, it doesn't.

L> --
L> X-MDMailing-List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
L> X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
L> X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
L> List-Hosted-by: Duta Integrasi Pratama - Indonesia
L> List-Help: 
L> List-Unsubscribe: 
L> List-Subscribe: 
L> List-Post: 
L> List-Owner: 
L> List-Administrator: 
L> List-Archive: 



L> A bit of mess, right? :)

Yes. And the funny thing is, I don't see ANY of that unless I press
Ctrl+Shift+K

The footer has already been explained.

BC>> If you somehow enabled the viewing of RFC-822 headers, and you're
BC>> seeing that with every message you open, sure, I can understand
BC>> what you mean by annoying -- especially on TBUDL, because you'd
BC>> have to scroll 3 feet.

L> Indeed my friend, indeed...

Then press Ctrl+Shift+K, or uncheck: View \ RFC-822 Headers

I suspect Marck will be shooting this horse very soon.

*Brian goes to sleepy land*

G'night,
--
...
 Brian Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> PGP-KeyID: 0xE4D0C7C8
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 http://www.fusionwerks.com/  Fax: 864.942.7249
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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Brian Clark]

Hello Lija, 

(L == "Lija") [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

L> For newbies it is not useless, sure, but it BECOMES very useless
L> and ANNOYING when you have to read it in every post.

By any chance do you have RFC-822 Headers checked in the view menu? is
this what you mean? If so, you can uncheck it (or Ctrl+Shift+K) to
turn it off.

If not, I don't see anything annoying about From, Reply-to, To,
and Subject (I have Created enabled too, because I prefer not to view
it in its own column, but I need to see it sometimes).

If you somehow enabled the viewing of RFC-822 headers, and you're
seeing that with every message you open, sure, I can understand what
you mean by annoying -- especially on TBUDL, because you'd have to
scroll 3 feet.

--
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 Brian Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> PGP-KeyID: 0xE4D0C7C8
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 http://www.fusionwerks.com/  Fax: 864.942.7249
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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Thomas]

Hi solid,

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:14:28 +0700GMT (20/01/2001, 16:14 +0800GMT),
solid snake wrote:

>> 
>> Set me straight then! Convince me! (On TBOT if need be.)
>> 
>   ..Thomas said.
 
>  What this word mean ? It's look like he use HTML mail, please don't
>  use HTML mail..!

According to my Kamus, the word "challenge" is "tantangan" in Bahasa.

I challenge Nick to convince me. If he succeeds, I'll sign my messages
on this list, and I'll buy him a beer.

It is not HTML, but it is made to look like HTML. It is actually plain
text, and I say the challange starts at this point, and ends at the
other. You can put anything you want into the HTML-like delimiters, for
example:


...some text...


which makes sense only to humans but not to computers. Understand?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Co-Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Anmeldung unter:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.49c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Brian Clark]

Hello solid, 

(ss == "solid snake") [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>> 
>> Set me straight then! Convince me! (On TBOT if need be.)
>> 
ss>   ..Thomas said.
 
ss>  What this word mean ? It's look like he use HTML mail, please don't
ss>  use HTML mail..!

Heheh, no no. He was just using pseudo-HTML to enclose a `thought.'

What Thomas did is harmless, and most certainly not HTML. :)

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 http://www.fusionwerks.com/  Fax: 864.942.7249
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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[solid snake]

Sabtu, pagi agak siang,
[..in milis thebat!..]
 « ..rest snipped »
> ... and PGP data... and large quotes... grmpf ;(( ...

> Why do you have to make it this way? Please forgive me for my misunderstanding,
> but these messages are bunch of USELESS data (well, 90% of them:)...
  ..Lija said.
 
 yeah..he's right.
 Is better to make one week info about unsubscribe or other info..!
 
-- "Squeal Boy, squeal"
SS, yang nulis siang siang
solid snake mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Thomas]

Hi Nick,

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:04:43 -0800GMT (20/01/2001, 15:04 +0800GMT),
Nick Andriash wrote:

T>> And the PGP sigs... some people are afraid that others will impersonate
T>> them or change their postings on this list.

> Thomas, you are destroying my image of you! :o(  I thought you were more
> forward thinking than that sentence indicates.


Set me straight then! Convince me! (On TBOT if need be.)


Here is my opinion, as expressed a few months ago in another thread,
either here or on TBBETA:

1.) I said that general postings to mailing lists should not be
signed. It's a waste of bandwidth. Remember, I said: "I would be
honoured if someone wanted to impersonate me", after which somebody
promptly did, causing me to LOL. By now, I don't mind if postings are
PGP signed. (My average download speed has also improved by 50% from
1Kb/s to 1.5Kb/s. And: I *will* get a cable modem come April. Checking
ISP's currently. Speeds with cable modems are rumoured to be up to
700Kb/s, even here. :-)

2.) I think the moderators should PGP sign their postings (at least
when they are posting in a moderator's capacity, but it would be
tedious to turn PGP-sing on and off).

3.) For private mail, PGP is a good idea. Both signing and
encrypting. There is absolute agreement here.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Co-Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Anmeldung unter:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.49c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Nick Andriash]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On January 19, 2001, at 8:54:51 PM, Lija Wrote:

L> All of you probably know this, but take a look at it again:

So some of the headers are redundant, so what? If you don't want to view
them, uncheck the item under View.

L> 11 useless rows in ALL message headers here in TBUDL... plus the
L> "signature":

The footer has a lot of valuable information in it, and not everyone has the
view RFC-822 Headers checked.

L> ... and PGP data...

They are called PGP Signatures.

L> and large quotes... grmpf ;(( ...

With that, I'll agree...

L> Why do you have to make it this way? Please forgive me for my
L> misunderstanding, but these messages are bunch of USELESS data (well, 90%
L> of them:)...

If, as you state, you have this misunderstanding, why then do you refer to
it as "useless" data when you apparently have not cleared up that
misunderstanding?  Perhaps you should pay attention to some of that "useless
data", and direct your message to:

List-Administrator: 

You know, for a new person, you don't seem to be too happy here on TBUDL
with either the way the messages are presented, nor the people who write
them. Funny attitude for someone new to the List.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.49c | PGP 7.0.3 | Win 98 SE ]
 Vancouver, B.C. Canada | PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE  


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.0.3
Comment: Join PGP-Basics: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Nick Andriash]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On January 19, 2001, at 10:23:50 PM, Thomas Wrote:

T> And the PGP sigs... some people are afraid that others will impersonate
T> them or change their postings on this list.

Thomas, you are destroying my image of you! :o(  I thought you were more
forward thinking than that sentence indicates.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.49c | PGP 7.0.3 | Win 98 SE ]
 Vancouver, B.C. Canada | PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE  


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.0.3
Comment: Join PGP-Basics: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

iQA/AwUBOmk4fsUChHR7o/3OEQJrhgCggaQ8MW2pjmJQPGw2/yGQXk5QNqQAoM5Z
ZgYiFyjEw29AhnktDBI3Z3WN
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Re: Big useless TBUDL headers and messages...

[Thomas]

Hi Lija,

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:54:51 +0100GMT (20/01/2001, 12:54 +0800GMT),
Lija wrote:

> 11 useless rows in ALL message headers here in TBUDL... plus the "signature":

Not that useless. Some mailers read the "List-" headers and you can pop
up a window. We are hoping for this to be included in The Bat at some
time. Well, at least this is how I remember it to be when this large
header was included.

As for the footer, it is necessary, as most people (including myself)
don't always look at the header, but "where is the archive" is one of
those questions that come up too often otherwise.

And the PGP sigs... some people are afraid that others will
impersonate them or change their postings on this list. I don't think
the PGP sig is necessary for anybody but the moderators, but it was
discussed at length - most people disagreed with me - but at least
S/Mime sigs (which are much bigger) were banned. Please see the
archives for more details.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Co-Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Anmeldung unter:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.49c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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