Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 7:29 AM Alexey A.  wrote:
>
> In fact, the compression ratio is higher when same_pages is taken into 
> account:
> ```
>  orig_data_size   uncompressed size of data stored in this disk.
>  This excludes same-element-filled pages (same_pages) since
>  *no memory is allocated for them*.
>  same_pages   the number of same element filled pages written to this 
> disk.
>   *No memory is allocated for such pages*.
> ```
> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/blockdev/zram.txt
> Check `SwapTotal - SwapFree` instead of DATA if you want to check real 
> compression ratio.


Good to know! Thanks!


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-27 23:50, Chris Murphy wrote:
>
> DATA/COMPR is the actual compression ratio
> DATA/TOTAL is the effective compression ratio, which includes a bit of
> overhead and fragmentation of the zram device (the difference between
> COMPR and TOTAL)

Thanks.

>
> I suspect zram-fraction=0.75 also would have succeeded. But it's fine
> to leave it set to 1.0. And as these are VMs mainly for testing, you
> could even set it to 2.0, and see if you run into issues.

I did previously run with 0.75 and while it ran longer it did crash before 
completion.

I'll give 2.0 a try in the coming days.  If anything interesting occurs I'll 
post back.

> The other reason for caps for systems with more memory, is the zram
> device does have a bit of overhead. It's cheap and worth it if the
> zram device is being utilized. But it's a waste, however small, if the
> zram device isn't being used. In your case, it'd be used so you could
> test with a fraction anywhere between 0.5 and 2.0. If you don't want
> to test it, 1.0 is pretty safe.
>

OK.

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:10 AM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 2020-08-27 09:38, Chris Murphy wrote:
>
> [egreshko@localhost ~]$ zramctl
> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA  COMPR  TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 510.6M 159.7M 167.6M   1 [SWAP]
>
> Effective compression ratio is 3:1. Also, that's at the low end of
> what I regularly see. High end 4:1.
>
>
> I don't know how to interpret the above to come up with a compression ration.

DATA/COMPR is the actual compression ratio
DATA/TOTAL is the effective compression ratio, which includes a bit of
overhead and fragmentation of the zram device (the difference between
COMPR and TOTAL)


> [egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
>  17:50:18 up 0 min,  1 user,  load average: 1.89, 0.55, 0.19
> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G   4K   74B   12K   1 [SWAP]
>
> A bit later on I login from the console and start a gnome-terminal session
>
> [egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
>  17:56:13 up 6 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.63, 0.45, 0.23
> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE  DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G  137M 42.9M   46M   1 [SWAP]
>
> And after doing sudo dnf --refresh check-update later on, I now see
>
> [egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
>  18:09:41 up 20 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.07, 0.04, 0.09
> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 184.9M 61.4M 64.7M   1 [SWAP]
>

I suspect zram-fraction=0.75 also would have succeeded. But it's fine
to leave it set to 1.0. And as these are VMs mainly for testing, you
could even set it to 2.0, and see if you run into issues.

The other reason for caps for systems with more memory, is the zram
device does have a bit of overhead. It's cheap and worth it if the
zram device is being utilized. But it's a waste, however small, if the
zram device isn't being used. In your case, it'd be used so you could
test with a fraction anywhere between 0.5 and 2.0. If you don't want
to test it, 1.0 is pretty safe.

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-27 09:38, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> [egreshko@localhost ~]$ zramctl
>> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA  COMPR  TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
>> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 510.6M 159.7M 167.6M   1 [SWAP]
> Effective compression ratio is 3:1. Also, that's at the low end of
> what I regularly see. High end 4:1.

I don't know how to interpret the above to come up with a compression ration.

When I first boot the system with no GUI login I see below after an ssh to the 
system.

[egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
 17:50:18 up 0 min,  1 user,  load average: 1.89, 0.55, 0.19
NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
/dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G   4K   74B   12K   1 [SWAP]

A bit later on I login from the console and start a gnome-terminal session

[egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
 17:56:13 up 6 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.63, 0.45, 0.23
NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE  DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
/dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G  137M 42.9M   46M   1 [SWAP]

And after doing sudo dnf --refresh check-update later on, I now see

[egreshko@f33g ~]$ uptime ; zramctl
 18:09:41 up 20 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.07, 0.04, 0.09
NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA COMPR TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
/dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 184.9M 61.4M 64.7M   1 [SWAP]



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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:38 PM Chris Murphy  wrote:
>
> cc: Zbigniew and Alexey for opinions.



-- Forwarded message -
From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek 
Date: Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 1:44 AM

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 07:38:37PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 6:02 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
> >
> > On 2020-08-27 06:28, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > >>> We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
> > >>> helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
> > >>> never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.
> > >>>
> > >>> Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
> > >>> to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
> > >>> takes effect upon reboot.
> > >> I'll do this soon.  It may be delayed a day or so due to previous 
> > >> commitments.  Is that OK?
> > > Yeah no hurry.
> > >
> >
> > My morning unexpectedly opened up.
> >
> > Doing the above allowed the installation to complete with 1248mb of memory 
> > assigned to the VM.
> > The system booted and is running fine.
> >
> > [egreshko@localhost ~]$ zramctl
> > NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA  COMPR  TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> > /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 510.6M 159.7M 167.6M   1 [SWAP]

[I think this will be rejected from test@ because I'm not subscribed...]

> Effective compression ratio is 3:1. Also, that's at the low end of
> what I regularly see. High end 4:1.

Yes, that's what I see too. On my laptop: 0.27, on a VM here: 0.28, on
a rpi3 that's doing dnf upgrade: 0.32. And if we have usual ratios like
that, then we could crank up the zram partition size. With 1/3 * 0.5
we're really only using 1/6th of RAM for swap. We could crank it up to
1.4 and not exhaust all RAM.

(Controlling zram through the uncompressed size is not very
convenient. It'd be much easier to specify the compressed size,
i.e. the backing size. An RFE for the kernel people.)

I think we should ask people to report their compression fraction in
various scenarios and make a decision based on that.

> If we had more data, 1:1 might be the safer and more conservative
> option. Thing is, I don't know that. I can't prove it. But there's a
> lot of historical data suggesting swap should be 50% of RAM. It only
> became common to use 100% and higher, to support the hibernation use
> case.
>
> A compromise for F33 that has already been suggested, and is
> compelling, is bump the ratio to 75%. And the cap from 4G to 6G. We
> have so many use cases we don't know a ton about, on a variety of
> archs, is the main reluctance. Things have been going extremely
> smoothly so far.
>
> But if we were to change it, a Beta FE might be a good time to do it,
> so the new values are in beta. Because we could then back off for
> final.
>
> cc: Zbigniew and Alexey for opinions.

In general, I'm for increasing.

Zbyszek


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 6:02 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 2020-08-27 06:28, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >>> We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
> >>> helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
> >>> never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.
> >>>
> >>> Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
> >>> to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
> >>> takes effect upon reboot.
> >> I'll do this soon.  It may be delayed a day or so due to previous 
> >> commitments.  Is that OK?
> > Yeah no hurry.
> >
>
> My morning unexpectedly opened up.
>
> Doing the above allowed the installation to complete with 1248mb of memory 
> assigned to the VM.
> The system booted and is running fine.
>
> [egreshko@localhost ~]$ zramctl
> NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA  COMPR  TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
> /dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 510.6M 159.7M 167.6M   1 [SWAP]

Effective compression ratio is 3:1. Also, that's at the low end of
what I regularly see. High end 4:1.

If we had more data, 1:1 might be the safer and more conservative
option. Thing is, I don't know that. I can't prove it. But there's a
lot of historical data suggesting swap should be 50% of RAM. It only
became common to use 100% and higher, to support the hibernation use
case.

A compromise for F33 that has already been suggested, and is
compelling, is bump the ratio to 75%. And the cap from 4G to 6G. We
have so many use cases we don't know a ton about, on a variety of
archs, is the main reluctance. Things have been going extremely
smoothly so far.

But if we were to change it, a Beta FE might be a good time to do it,
so the new values are in beta. Because we could then back off for
final.

cc: Zbigniew and Alexey for opinions.

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-27 06:28, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
>>> helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
>>> never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.
>>>
>>> Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
>>> to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
>>> takes effect upon reboot.
>> I'll do this soon.  It may be delayed a day or so due to previous 
>> commitments.  Is that OK?
> Yeah no hurry.
>

My morning unexpectedly opened up.

Doing the above allowed the installation to complete with 1248mb of memory 
assigned to the VM.
The system booted and is running fine.

[egreshko@localhost ~]$ zramctl
NAME   ALGORITHM DISKSIZE   DATA  COMPR  TOTAL STREAMS MOUNTPOINT
/dev/zram0 lzo-rle   1.2G 510.6M 159.7M 167.6M   1 [SWAP]


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-27 06:28, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:00 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> On 2020-08-27 01:13, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:55 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
 I performed the above after assigning 1248mb and the install completed 
 fine.
>>> (a) create a swap partition in Custom partitioning
>>> (b) create a custom /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf file that uses
>>> zram-fraction=1.0, and restart the zram swap service as previously
>>> described.
>> Just to be clear, you want both a 1248mb swap partition and custom zram.
>> Then do the install.
> Nope. Just create the zram.generator.conf with zram-fraction=1.0 and
> do an automatic install (no swap partition)

OK.  Since I already had done "a" I was confused.



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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:00 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 2020-08-27 01:13, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:55 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
> >> I performed the above after assigning 1248mb and the install completed 
> >> fine.
> > (a) create a swap partition in Custom partitioning
> > (b) create a custom /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf file that uses
> > zram-fraction=1.0, and restart the zram swap service as previously
> > described.
>
> Just to be clear, you want both a 1248mb swap partition and custom zram.
> Then do the install.

Nope. Just create the zram.generator.conf with zram-fraction=1.0 and
do an automatic install (no swap partition)

>
> > We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
> > helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
> > never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.
> >
> > Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
> > to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
> > takes effect upon reboot.
>
> I'll do this soon.  It may be delayed a day or so due to previous 
> commitments.  Is that OK?

Yeah no hurry.



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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-27 01:13, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:55 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> I performed the above after assigning 1248mb and the install completed fine.
> (a) create a swap partition in Custom partitioning
> (b) create a custom /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf file that uses
> zram-fraction=1.0, and restart the zram swap service as previously
> described.

Just to be clear, you want both a 1248mb swap partition and custom zram. 
Then do the install.

> We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
> helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
> never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.
>
> Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
> to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
> takes effect upon reboot.

I'll do this soon.  It may be delayed a day or so due to previous commitments.  
Is that OK?

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 08:39 -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> On 8/25/20 8:57 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > So the 'official' doc on this, AFAIK, is
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/release-notes/welcome/Hardware_Overview/
> > which still cites 1GB as the minimum for "the default installation"
> > (which is of course a fairly vague term).
> 
> 
> 1GB hasn't been enough to run an install for quite a while.

It's enough to run some installs. The amount of RAM needed varies quite
a lot depending on what installer you're using and what package set
you're installing.
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:55 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> I performed the above after assigning 1248mb and the install completed fine.

(a) create a swap partition in Custom partitioning
(b) create a custom /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf file that uses
zram-fraction=1.0, and restart the zram swap service as previously
described.

We are considering bumping the default size for swaponzram. So (b) is
helpful to see if there are any negative side effects long term. I
never saw any, but I am not a sufficient sample size.

Once the installation is finished,  you can copy that same .conf file
to /mnt/sysimage/etc/systemd/ in the installation environment, so it
takes effect upon reboot.


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Kamil Paral]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:15 PM Richard Ryniker  wrote:

> However, it is unsatisfactory for installation to fail without some
> explanation of what may be wrong.  Cannot anaconda attempt to verify the
> installation environment provides at least the recommended memory
> resources to install Fedora?  If not, produce a warning that memory may
> be inadequate, and provide a URL to a page that discusses the recommended
> environment and what might be done (network install, additional page
> space, minimal image) to be successful with less resources.
>

Sure, it would be nice. You can file an RFE in bugzilla against anaconda.
But I'm quite sure anaconda folks will not want to maintain the actual
recommended values and web guides, somebody would need to take care of
maintaining it and sending them updated values if they change.
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 8/25/20 8:57 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

So the 'official' doc on this, AFAIK, is
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/release-notes/welcome/Hardware_Overview/
which still cites 1GB as the minimum for "the default installation"
(which is of course a fairly vague term).



1GB hasn't been enough to run an install for quite a while.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1278260
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Kamil Paral]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:06 AM Ed Greshko  wrote:

> My suggestion would be that if the install process could detect/know that
> it is below the limits
> needed it would notify the user and not proceed.  That is, not just crash.
>

Knowing memory requirements in advance for an ever-changing codebase across
different system architectures. If you can find a solution, you might win
some prize and recognition in the theoretical informatics field ;-)

The best that we could possibly do is to regularly test all the different
types of images on different architectures, find a reasonable lower limit,
and then hardcode the limit in anaconda (which would need to reliably
detect the environment it is running in) and inform the user if the free
memory is too low (not just total memory, because the user can start a few
programs in the live environment before starting the installer, and you
suddenly have much less memory available). Repeat the testing at least once
per cycle, ideally multiple times. If that sounds like a lot of work, it
sounds correct. That's why a note in the system requirements section on the
download page is usually how everybody deals with this.
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-26 02:27, Chris Murphy wrote:
> It's getting clobbered by earlyoom. It really doesn't have enough
> memory if it's swapping out 892M. If that were on disk, it'd be kindof
> a dreadful experience performance wise, but yeah it would eventually
> succeed if big enough.

I'm not concerned with performance.  The F32 installs took time too.  But it 
isn't as if
I was in a hurry.  These VM's are mostly only used to duplicate issues others 
are having
on the users list.  So, install time and user experience are irrelevant, to me.

> Another test would be to use Custom partitioning to create disk-based
> swap equal to the amount of memory. To do that: keep the btrfs scheme
> and have it create the layout for you, then reduce the Btrfs partition
> (click on / or /home, and on the right side UI find 'Volume' and click
> the Modify button, use fixed size and set a value - now you can create
> swap same size as RAM).

I performed the above after assigning 1248mb and the install completed fine.

My suggestion would be that if the install process could detect/know that it is 
below the limits
needed it would notify the user and not proceed.  That is, not just crash.

> I'm curious how much swap it ends up using but it'll probably be more
> than 800M in which case, it's just seriously under resourced.
>
> Still another test, you can keep increasing the zram device size up to
> 2x memory, i.e. ' zram-fraction=2.0' That has its own consequences but
> will still be way faster than disk based swap.

Speed isn't the issue, for me.  It is crashing v.s. not crashing


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:32 AM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> On 2020-08-25 13:58, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
> >> With F32 and previous versions I've been able to install Workstation and 
> >> other spins in a QEMU VM
> >> with about 1200MB~1248MB of memory.  With F33 the install process crashes 
> >> during the "installing software"
> >> phase.
> >>
> >> Is this expected?
> >>
> >> FWIW, the "Everything-netinst" install of a KDE system did install just 
> >> fine with 1248MB assigned.
> >>
> >> Currently using...
> >>
> >> Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> >> Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> >> Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> > Are there any hints why it crashed in the journal? That is pretty
> > tight memory wise. Minimum RAM 2G is what's listed on getfedora.org,
> > and 4G i s recommended. The biggest difference memory wise I can think
> > of between F32 and F33 is no disk based swap by default. It uses zram
> > based swap. And in such a tight case, only 50% may not be enough.
> >
> > Even before the zram change though, I'd see ~250M of swap used with a
> > 2G VM. So that means it's already under provisioned, and walking on
> > thin ice.
> >
> > But we should make sure we have a complete explanation before making
> > adjustments. You could see if zram set to 75% and 100% help, just as
> > an extra data point. Create /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf and edit
> > to include
> >
> > [zram0]
> > zram-fraction=0.75
> >
> > and then 'systemctl restart swap-create@zram0'
> >
> > confirm with swapon and/or zramctl that its size is 75% that of totalmemory
> >
> > You can do this prior to beginning the installation.
> >
>
> OK, doing the above still resulted in a crash.  But, it happened later in the 
> process.  The
> journal did show
>
> Aug 25 02:27:15 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: stderr:
> Aug 25 02:27:14 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: Running... umount 
> /run/install/source
> Aug 25 02:27:13 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: sending SIGTERM to process 
> 2042 uid 0 "anaconda": ba
> dness 77, VmRSS 55 MiB
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: low memory! at or below 
> SIGTERM limits: mem  4.00%,
> swap 10.00%
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: mem avail:44 of  1191 MiB 
> ( 3.77%), swap free:
>   0 of  892 MiB ( 0.00%)
>
> So, it would seem, zram based swap is less forgiving than disk based swap.

It's getting clobbered by earlyoom. It really doesn't have enough
memory if it's swapping out 892M. If that were on disk, it'd be kindof
a dreadful experience performance wise, but yeah it would eventually
succeed if big enough.

Another test would be to use Custom partitioning to create disk-based
swap equal to the amount of memory. To do that: keep the btrfs scheme
and have it create the layout for you, then reduce the Btrfs partition
(click on / or /home, and on the right side UI find 'Volume' and click
the Modify button, use fixed size and set a value - now you can create
swap same size as RAM).

I'm curious how much swap it ends up using but it'll probably be more
than 800M in which case, it's just seriously under resourced.

Still another test, you can keep increasing the zram device size up to
2x memory, i.e. ' zram-fraction=2.0' That has its own consequences but
will still be way faster than disk based swap.

--
Chris Murphy
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2020-08-25 at 13:30 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> With F32 and previous versions I've been able to install Workstation and 
> other spins in a QEMU VM
> with about 1200MB~1248MB of memory.  With F33 the install process crashes 
> during the "installing software"
> phase.
> 
> Is this expected?
> 
> FWIW, the "Everything-netinst" install of a KDE system did install just fine 
> with 1248MB assigned.
> 
> Currently using...
> 
> Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso

So the 'official' doc on this, AFAIK, is
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/release-notes/welcome/Hardware_Overview/
which still cites 1GB as the minimum for "the default installation"
(which is of course a fairly vague term).

We don't really do any checking/validation of low memory configs,
though, so when this changes we don't necessarily notice. openQA
install tests use 2GB RAM, so we would notice if things stopped working
with 2GB, but we don't test below that.

Running Workstation with less than 2GB is really not gonna give you a
great experience, though. If anything, I'd actually think we should
update the docs to specify 2GB minimum for GNOME and KDE.

Bottom line it's entirely possible this changed, but I don't think we'd
treat it as a significant issue because I suspect we wouldn't really
want to stand behind the experience of running Workstation or KDE in
less than 2GB of RAM anyway.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-25 22:35, Kamil Paral wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:33 AM Ed Greshko  > wrote:
>
> Aug 25 02:27:15 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: stderr:
> Aug 25 02:27:14 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: Running... umount 
> /run/install/source
> Aug 25 02:27:13 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: sending SIGTERM to process 
> 2042 uid 0 "anaconda": ba
> dness 77, VmRSS 55 MiB
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: low memory! at or below 
> SIGTERM limits: mem  4.00%,
> swap 10.00%
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: mem avail:    44 of  1191 
> MiB ( 3.77%), swap free: 
>   0 of  892 MiB ( 0.00%)
>
> So, it would seem, zram based swap is less forgiving than disk based swap.
>
>
> It's not "less forgiving", it's just smaller. The log shows you're out of 
> memory and out of swap space. If you absolutely need to install on a system 
> with so little memory, configure a disk-based swap of appropriate size to 
> compensate for low available memory. Or you can also try to use a netinst 
> image which has lower memory requirements than a Live desktop image.
>

Right.  In my case I simply increased the memory allocated to the VM for the 
install process and then
lowered it for the running system.  These are just "test" VMs and won't have 
much of a workload.
I just need to be able to run multiple VMs at the same time on a host with 6GB.

I simply hadn't had an issue before.  Being a "long time" user I tend not to 
read release notes. (Shame, shame)
And even then I don't think there are F33 release notes available.

I feel the documentation of the F33 equivalent of
 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/f32/release-notes/welcome/Hardware_Overview/

should be more explicit in pointing out installs will fail on systems with less 
than 2GB.

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-25 22:38, Kamil Paral wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:08 AM Ed Greshko  > wrote:
>
> On reflection, I don't think that previous installs without zram used any 
> swap.
>
>
> That seems hardly possible, according to your logs. Anything is possible, but 
> it is very improbable that previously you'd be able to finish the 
> installation without using the disk swap. It's easy to test it. Take Fedora 
> 32 image of the same kind, and run an installation, but remove all swap-based 
> partitions in custom disk partitioning first. You'll see if it can finish or 
> not.
>

You're most likely correct.  I had not thought about that. 


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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:08 AM Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On reflection, I don't think that previous installs without zram used any
> swap.
>

That seems hardly possible, according to your logs. Anything is possible,
but it is very improbable that previously you'd be able to finish the
installation without using the disk swap. It's easy to test it. Take Fedora
32 image of the same kind, and run an installation, but remove all
swap-based partitions in custom disk partitioning first. You'll see if it
can finish or not.
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:33 AM Ed Greshko  wrote:

> Aug 25 02:27:15 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: stderr:
> Aug 25 02:27:14 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: Running... umount
> /run/install/source
> Aug 25 02:27:13 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: sending SIGTERM to process
> 2042 uid 0 "anaconda": ba
> dness 77, VmRSS 55 MiB
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: low memory! at or below
> SIGTERM limits: mem  4.00%,
> swap 10.00%
> Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: mem avail:44 of  1191
> MiB ( 3.77%), swap free:
>   0 of  892 MiB ( 0.00%)
>
> So, it would seem, zram based swap is less forgiving than disk based swap.
>

It's not "less forgiving", it's just smaller. The log shows you're out of
memory and out of swap space. If you absolutely need to install on a system
with so little memory, configure a disk-based swap of appropriate size to
compensate for low available memory. Or you can also try to use a netinst
image which has lower memory requirements than a Live desktop image.
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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-25 14:32, Ed Greshko wrote:
> So, it would seem, zram based swap is less forgiving than disk based swap.

That may have been silly statement. 

On reflection, I don't think that previous installs without zram used any swap.

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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

On 2020-08-25 13:58, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>> With F32 and previous versions I've been able to install Workstation and 
>> other spins in a QEMU VM
>> with about 1200MB~1248MB of memory.  With F33 the install process crashes 
>> during the "installing software"
>> phase.
>>
>> Is this expected?
>>
>> FWIW, the "Everything-netinst" install of a KDE system did install just fine 
>> with 1248MB assigned.
>>
>> Currently using...
>>
>> Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
>> Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
>> Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> Are there any hints why it crashed in the journal? That is pretty
> tight memory wise. Minimum RAM 2G is what's listed on getfedora.org,
> and 4G i s recommended. The biggest difference memory wise I can think
> of between F32 and F33 is no disk based swap by default. It uses zram
> based swap. And in such a tight case, only 50% may not be enough.
>
> Even before the zram change though, I'd see ~250M of swap used with a
> 2G VM. So that means it's already under provisioned, and walking on
> thin ice.
>
> But we should make sure we have a complete explanation before making
> adjustments. You could see if zram set to 75% and 100% help, just as
> an extra data point. Create /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf and edit
> to include
>
> [zram0]
> zram-fraction=0.75
>
> and then 'systemctl restart swap-create@zram0'
>
> confirm with swapon and/or zramctl that its size is 75% that of totalmemory
>
> You can do this prior to beginning the installation.
>

OK, doing the above still resulted in a crash.  But, it happened later in the 
process.  The
journal did show

Aug 25 02:27:15 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: stderr:
Aug 25 02:27:14 localhost-live anaconda[2042]: program: Running... umount 
/run/install/source
Aug 25 02:27:13 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: sending SIGTERM to process 2042 
uid 0 "anaconda": ba
dness 77, VmRSS 55 MiB
Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: low memory! at or below SIGTERM 
limits: mem  4.00%,
swap 10.00%
Aug 25 02:27:12 localhost-live earlyoom[1015]: mem avail:    44 of  1191 MiB ( 
3.77%), swap free: 
  0 of  892 MiB ( 0.00%)

So, it would seem, zram based swap is less forgiving than disk based swap.



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Re: F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Chris Murphy]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
> With F32 and previous versions I've been able to install Workstation and 
> other spins in a QEMU VM
> with about 1200MB~1248MB of memory.  With F33 the install process crashes 
> during the "installing software"
> phase.
>
> Is this expected?
>
> FWIW, the "Everything-netinst" install of a KDE system did install just fine 
> with 1248MB assigned.
>
> Currently using...
>
> Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
> Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso

Are there any hints why it crashed in the journal? That is pretty
tight memory wise. Minimum RAM 2G is what's listed on getfedora.org,
and 4G i s recommended. The biggest difference memory wise I can think
of between F32 and F33 is no disk based swap by default. It uses zram
based swap. And in such a tight case, only 50% may not be enough.

Even before the zram change though, I'd see ~250M of swap used with a
2G VM. So that means it's already under provisioned, and walking on
thin ice.

But we should make sure we have a complete explanation before making
adjustments. You could see if zram set to 75% and 100% help, just as
an extra data point. Create /etc/systemd/zram-generator.conf and edit
to include

[zram0]
zram-fraction=0.75

and then 'systemctl restart swap-create@zram0'

confirm with swapon and/or zramctl that its size is 75% that of totalmemory

You can do this prior to beginning the installation.


-- 
Chris Murphy
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F33 install minimum memory requirements?

[Ed Greshko]

With F32 and previous versions I've been able to install Workstation and other 
spins in a QEMU VM
with about 1200MB~1248MB of memory.  With F33 the install process crashes 
during the "installing software"
phase.

Is this expected?

FWIW, the "Everything-netinst" install of a KDE system did install just fine 
with 1248MB assigned.

Currently using...

Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso
Fedora-KDE-Live-x86_64-33-20200824.n.0.iso

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