Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com wrote: Fantastic. I downloaded the latest Nvidia 64 bit run file, booted Rawhide into text mode, ran the .run file and voila! my 9600GT shines forth in full resolution quiet 3d glory. Rawhide is now a graphics system. Please don't break it for a while. It isn't like people try to break it, but when adding changes nobody (rightfully) cares whether it breaks it or not, its NVIDIA's job to unbreak it. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 17:52 +0200, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com wrote: Fantastic. I downloaded the latest Nvidia 64 bit run file, booted Rawhide into text mode, ran the .run file and voila! my 9600GT shines forth in full resolution quiet 3d glory. Rawhide is now a graphics system. Please don't break it for a while. It isn't like people try to break it, but when adding changes nobody (rightfully) cares whether it breaks it or not, its NVIDIA's job to unbreak it. How do you boot into text mode. I have used linux a long time but I don't know how do that. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:09:21AM -0500, Jim Bennett wrote: Please don't break it for a while. It isn't like people try to break it, but when adding changes nobody (rightfully) cares whether it breaks it or not, its NVIDIA's job to unbreak it. I've never quite understood this logic. If it's working, there is a change in Fedora, and it doesn't work, this is NVidia's job to fix? (While agreeing, obviously, that people aren't deliberately attempting to break it.) I think Fedora needs NVidia support, as it probably has 30 percent of the market or so (pulling figures out of the air, but seems today's video cards are either ATI, NVidia, or Intel), more than NVidia needs Fedora. (A quick google indicates that for Q2 2010, it was Intel 54.3 percent, AMD 24.5 and NVidia with 19.8, which comes to 98.6. There has to be a pun here but all I can think of is a song that was out before most of you were born. (For those who use metric, i.e., most of the world, the pun has to do with the fact that 98.6 is body temperature in Farenheit.) How do you boot into text mode. I have used linux a long time but I don't know how do that. Change the runlevel to 3. I'm not sure if systemd will change this, but at present, edit /etc/inittab and find the line that says id:5:initdefault: Change that 5 to a 3. -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
SR == Scott Robbins scot...@nyc.rr.com writes: SR I've never quite understood this logic. If it's working, there is a SR change in Fedora, and it doesn't work, this is NVidia's job to fix? Yes, precisely. Their code is not open; we can't fix it. Who else's job could it possibly be but their when they are the only ones with the code? - J -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 13:17 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: It isn't like people try to break it, but when adding changes nobody (rightfully) cares whether it breaks it or not, its NVIDIA's job to unbreak it. I've never quite understood this logic. If it's working, there is a change in Fedora, and it doesn't work, this is NVidia's job to fix? Usually, yes, because the change is 'new version of X server' or something like that. We are not going to hold back F/OSS components because a proprietary vendor can't update its drivers in a timely fashion. If the change is a bug in Fedora then obviously it would be fixed in Fedora. I think Fedora needs NVidia support, as it probably has 30 percent of the market or so (pulling figures out of the air, but seems today's video cards are either ATI, NVidia, or Intel), more than NVidia needs Fedora. (A quick google indicates that for Q2 2010, it was Intel 54.3 percent, AMD 24.5 and NVidia with 19.8, which comes to 98.6. This is why we ship the nouveau driver, which provides support for NVIDIA hardware using code we can actually maintain. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 12:33 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: SR == Scott Robbins scot...@nyc.rr.com writes: SR I've never quite understood this logic. If it's working, there is a SR change in Fedora, and it doesn't work, this is NVidia's job to fix? Yes, precisely. Their code is not open; we can't fix it. Who else's job could it possibly be but their when they are the only ones with the code? Actually, this is an oversimplified view based on pure ideology - and exactly the one which causes issues between the OpenSource and other communities. It assumes that Fedora's code is perfect because it's open, and that because nVidia's code broke from a change in Fedora code that the problem must be nVidia's. History proves something different - that the real problem could be in either code base, and has been before. Since nVidia is not likely to open their code anytime soon, the issues of how to troubleshoot where the problems lie can't be completely collaborative. And this decision by nVidia means they wind up having to look at both code bases to find the problem, with little help from Fedora Project. They then either patch their own code, submit a patch to the Fedora Project team (which then has to go through Fedora's normal approval process), or perhaps do both. The conflict lies in that the Fedora everything must be OpenSource ideologues often cop a pretty nasty attitude towards proprietary vendors like nVidia, and that favor is, unfortunately, often returned. The pragmatic reality is that we will all be dealing with a mix of OpenSource and proprietary software for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not. Given that, it would help if all parties involved at least tried to hold out the proverbial olive branch and get along. That way, actual problems might get fixed without the various camps getting into pissing contests about who actually broke what and who is responsible, and true software choice is preserved for everyone... Cheers, Chris -- In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. --George Orwell -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:59:35 -0600, Christopher A. Williams chriswfed...@cawllc.com wrote: The pragmatic reality is that we will all be dealing with a mix of OpenSource and proprietary software for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not. Given that, it would help if all parties involved at least tried to hold out the proverbial olive branch and get along. That way, actual problems might get fixed without the various camps getting into pissing contests about who actually broke what and who is responsible, and true software choice is preserved for everyone... Fedora isn't the distro to use if you have that expectation. There other distros that would be better if you need to use nVidia's drivers and can't afford to manage your updates to prevent kernel updates from causing problems. If you use Fedora the expectations are that you use nouveau, that Fedora packagers aren't responsible for debugging packages that aren't in our repos, and that Fedora packagers shouldn't have to slow down development because some third party is dragging their feet. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 13:17 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:09:21AM -0500, Jim Bennett wrote: How do you boot into text mode. I have used linux a long time but I don't know how do that. Change the runlevel to 3. I'm not sure if systemd will change this, but at present, edit /etc/inittab and find the line that says id:5:initdefault: Change that 5 to a 3. Or to boot into text mode just once: * Press ESC to interrupt grub boot-up * Arrow to the kernel of your choice (usually the top one) * Press E to edit that stanza * Arrow down to the kernel ... line * Press E to edit that line * Append 3 (that's space-3 without the dash or quotes) to the line * Press ENTER to quit edit mode * Press B to resume the boot. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
Nice commentary on this subject, Chris. And dead on. --Xaphir --- On Fri, 10/15/10, Christopher A. Williams chriswfed...@cawllc.com wrote: From: Christopher A. Williams chriswfed...@cawllc.com Subject: Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!! To: For testers of Fedora development releases test@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 1:59 PM On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 12:33 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: SR == Scott Robbins scot...@nyc.rr.com writes: SR I've never quite understood this logic. If it's working, there is a SR change in Fedora, and it doesn't work, this is NVidia's job to fix? Yes, precisely. Their code is not open; we can't fix it. Who else's job could it possibly be but their when they are the only ones with the code? Actually, this is an oversimplified view based on pure ideology - and exactly the one which causes issues between the OpenSource and other communities. It assumes that Fedora's code is perfect because it's open, and that because nVidia's code broke from a change in Fedora code that the problem must be nVidia's. History proves something different - that the real problem could be in either code base, and has been before. Since nVidia is not likely to open their code anytime soon, the issues of how to troubleshoot where the problems lie can't be completely collaborative. And this decision by nVidia means they wind up having to look at both code bases to find the problem, with little help from Fedora Project. They then either patch their own code, submit a patch to the Fedora Project team (which then has to go through Fedora's normal approval process), or perhaps do both. The conflict lies in that the Fedora everything must be OpenSource ideologues often cop a pretty nasty attitude towards proprietary vendors like nVidia, and that favor is, unfortunately, often returned. The pragmatic reality is that we will all be dealing with a mix of OpenSource and proprietary software for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not. Given that, it would help if all parties involved at least tried to hold out the proverbial olive branch and get along. That way, actual problems might get fixed without the various camps getting into pissing contests about who actually broke what and who is responsible, and true software choice is preserved for everyone... Cheers, Chris -- In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. --George Orwell -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 13:33 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:59:35 -0600, Christopher A. Williams chriswfed...@cawllc.com wrote: The pragmatic reality is that we will all be dealing with a mix of OpenSource and proprietary software for the foreseeable future, whether we like it or not. Given that, it would help if all parties involved at least tried to hold out the proverbial olive branch and get along. That way, actual problems might get fixed without the various camps getting into pissing contests about who actually broke what and who is responsible, and true software choice is preserved for everyone... Fedora isn't the distro to use if you have that expectation. There other distros that would be better if you need to use nVidia's drivers and can't afford to manage your updates to prevent kernel updates from causing problems. ...Ummm Not necessarily. Perhaps that works for you, but I find that my current combo of Fedora and nVidia (via RPM Fusion), and a mix of several other OpenSource and proprietary tools, works quite nicely, thank you very much. If you use Fedora the expectations are that you use nouveau, that Fedora packagers aren't responsible for debugging packages that aren't in our repos, and that Fedora packagers shouldn't have to slow down development because some third party is dragging their feet. And no again. Those might be _your_ expectations, but they are not _my_ expectations. And since I'm the one who gets to decide what software I run on _my_ computer, your expectations don't apply. Oh, and I've used and contributed to Fedora since version 1.0 (and, before that, its Red Hat Linux predecessor since the Halloween release). Besides, You implied some things about my motivations that I never wrote or implied. Such as: 1) You implied, if not almost stated outright, that I have an expectation Fedora should fix and debug nVidia packages. That's false. I never even remotely went there. I have an expectation that Fedora will fix their own bugs, nVidia will fix their own bugs, and the two parties will kindly figure out how to work together under the circumstances that exist like adults instead of tantrum throwing children. Specifically, in the case of nVidia, that means I have an expectation they will have to compensate somewhat in working with OpenSource providers in helping to find and fix problems. That's the price they pay for wanting to keep their stuff closed. ...In the meantime I'll continue to play around with and provide feedback on Nouveau, and if it eventually suits my needs better than nVidia, I'll switch. 2) You imply and try to make the case that running Fedora means I have to buy fully into the ultimate in OpenSource Only ideology. That's also false. No, I don't have to. I can run Fedora any way I want to, in combination with any other software I want to, as long as I follow the applicable licenses (in Fedora's case, the GPL). I find it amazing that people who cry out loudest for OpenSource and software choice somehow seem to be the same group to get upset when that software choice includes a mix of FOSS and proprietary products. If you take that position, aren't you becoming exactly what it is you are so passionately standing up against? I choose, instead, to promote, encourage, and advocate OpenSource software, but will always promote software choice as a part of that. As such I will also refuse to boycott proprietary software. OpenSource can - and should - be allowed to compete and win on its business and technological merits, as opposed to because someone crammed it down my throat. If the 2nd is where we're going, we might as well be Microsoft. Chris -- The wise man questions the wisdom of others because he questions his own, the foolish man, because it is different from his own. --Leo Stein, American Art Collector -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: CAW == Christopher A Williams chriswfed...@cawllc.com writes: CAW Actually, this is an oversimplified view based on pure ideology - CAW and exactly the one which causes issues between the OpenSource and CAW other communities. I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, but the simple fact is that we can't fix what we can't work on. Indeed. Nobody (well at least not me) is asking Fedora Project to fix nVidia's proprietary code. That should, appropriately, be nVidia's job. But the two camps can - and should - at least be expected to play nicely with each other. The rules of engagement between the two could be similar to when two proprietary software companies collaborate while each keeps their own code closed from the other. -- General notions are generally wrong. --Lady Mary Whortley Montagu, British Aristocrat and Writer -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
Christopher A. Williams wrote: But the two camps can - and should - at least be expected to play nicely with each other. The rules of engagement between the two could be similar to when two proprietary software companies collaborate while each keeps their own code closed from the other. From what I have seen there is good interaction between the X.org group and NVIDIA so I am not losing any sleep over the lack of collaboration. I'm sure if the suits at NVIDIA could be convinced they wouldn't lose money from producing an open source driver, we would have one. P.S. Good discussion, Christopher. I agree with all of your points. P.P.S. The X group also helped fix a VBE bug in F14 that affected many projects, including VirtualBox. Some debugging that helped pinpoint the issue came from Frank @ Sun (Oracle). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: !! NVIDIA WORKS !!!
On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 16:49 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Christopher A. Williams wrote: But the two camps can - and should - at least be expected to play nicely with each other. The rules of engagement between the two could be similar to when two proprietary software companies collaborate while each keeps their own code closed from the other. From what I have seen there is good interaction between the X.org group and NVIDIA so I am not losing any sleep over the lack of collaboration. I'm sure if the suits at NVIDIA could be convinced they wouldn't lose money from producing an open source driver, we would have one. P.S. Good discussion, Christopher. I agree with all of your points. P.P.S. The X group also helped fix a VBE bug in F14 that affected many projects, including VirtualBox. Some debugging that helped pinpoint the issue came from Frank @ Sun (Oracle). Thanks! And I wasn't aware of those gems of info. Nice to know some of us are working together quite well. Chris -- The most effective way to do it is to do it. --Amelia Earhart, American Aviation Pioneer -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
