Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On 09/12/2010 05:00 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > Actually, I suspect it's a result of this bug: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=630490 > > until the fix for that gets pushed, in F14, if you use systemd and > 'disable' NetworkManager.service, NM will still get started up by bus > activation, hence you'll get the bad behaviour. Well, I reported that bug. In that case, removing NM completely is a workaround. My problem is that I have a specific USB modem (Reliance) which doesn't work with NM. So I have to resort to using wvdial at home but prefer using NM at work and don't want to remove it. If you are not using NM at all, simply removing it is acceptable. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Fri, 2010-09-10 at 23:55 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 16:23:12 -0500, > John Morris wrote: > > On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 00:14 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, > > > John Morris wrote: > > > > > > > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. > Oh no, you can't > > > That is not the behavior I see. I run desktops without > NetworkManager > running (but installed) and there is no problem with firefox. > (I don't > use evolution or empathy.) > > Same observation here. I think if you leave NM enabled but it is not > connected yet for some reason, you will see the offline behavior > reported by John Morris. Otherwise his rant is inaccurate. Actually, I suspect it's a result of this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=630490 until the fix for that gets pushed, in F14, if you use systemd and 'disable' NetworkManager.service, NM will still get started up by bus activation, hence you'll get the bad behaviour. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 16:23:12 -0500, > John Morris wrote: > > On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 00:14 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, > > > John Morris wrote: > > > > > > > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you > can't > > That is not the behavior I see. I run desktops without NetworkManager > running (but installed) and there is no problem with firefox. (I don't > use evolution or empathy.) > Same observation here. I think if you leave NM enabled but it is not connected yet for some reason, you will see the offline behavior reported by John Morris. Otherwise his rant is inaccurate. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 16:23:12 -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 00:14 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, > > John Morris wrote: > > > > > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you can't > > > > You can still run the network service. You use chkconfig to turn it on. > > If you don't need wireless, turning off NetworkManager doesn't seem to > > be a problem, but it's also possible to run both at the same time. > > No it isn't. If NM isn't managing a connection to the Internet then > Firefox (fixable), Evolution, Empathy and almost certainly other apps go > into offline mode. You can still run a server without NetworkManager > but a desktop install now requires that it be installed and managing > your connection. Been there, tried that and have the t-shirt. That is not the behavior I see. I run desktops without NetworkManager running (but installed) and there is no problem with firefox. (I don't use evolution or empathy.) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 04:23:12PM -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 00:14 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, > > John Morris wrote: > > > > > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you can't > > > > You can still run the network service. You use chkconfig to turn it on. > > If you don't need wireless, turning off NetworkManager doesn't seem to > > be a problem, but it's also possible to run both at the same time. > > No it isn't. If NM isn't managing a connection to the Internet then > Firefox (fixable), Evolution, Empathy and almost certainly other apps go > into offline mode. Really? I do not know about Evolution or Empathy and surely not about "almost certainly other app" but this is from two different F13 installations: # chkconfig --list NetworkManager NetworkManager 0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off Both are running desktop and firefox did not require any fixes not to go into offline mode as long as network was active. Nor I have seen so far any other problems. It may help if you will make desired network interfaces explicitely not NM controlled as by default they are. Michal -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 00:14 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, > John Morris wrote: > > > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you can't > > You can still run the network service. You use chkconfig to turn it on. > If you don't need wireless, turning off NetworkManager doesn't seem to > be a problem, but it's also possible to run both at the same time. No it isn't. If NM isn't managing a connection to the Internet then Firefox (fixable), Evolution, Empathy and almost certainly other apps go into offline mode. You can still run a server without NetworkManager but a desktop install now requires that it be installed and managing your connection. Been there, tried that and have the t-shirt. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
> > So now I lost the only kernel package where everything worked. And of > > course Fedora doesn't have it anymore. You can pick the original > > package or the current update. Triple crap! If anyone has a pointer > > to kernel-2.6.31.12-174.222.x86_64.rpm I'd really appreciate it! > > Google, rpmfind, etc. all come up blank as did manually poking around > > on the Fedora mirrors. > > You mean this one: > http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=157491 Thanks! Was really hoping those old updates were still somewhere out there. Really hate self inflicted wounds, nice to know it wasn't terminal. Especially since someone else just joined my bug with the bad news that F13 does have the same problem. Looks like I'm going to be stuck with F12 and that one working kernel for a while yet. Not sure what the plan is when the next major security problem pops after F12 goes unsupported but there is still a couple of months until that problem becomes acute. > I hoped venting helped you, but this is not the way to move > things forward. I'd suggest more help testing, good bug reports.. Dunno, reported this one in March and it is still in NEW state. Reported #563417 in Feb and it is also in the NEW state. Thankfully I could work around it by binding a script to CTRL-F7 to fire blindly that looks at the state of the dock and manually launches some xrandr commands to force things into shape. The panel picks up on dynamic changes in screen geometry just fine so force it down to 1024x768, wait a second or two for it to reappear then resize to the current attached primary panel's size. Not ready for Grandma but that one doesn't bother me as much as some of the things I was ranting about because it is a bug in something that is clearly a new feature. The agility of xrandr has been amazing to watch over the last few years. Hopefully all the other bits like the panel will catch up in another rev or two. And maybe the system will even get smart enough to remember where you put the displays and restore that when the same external monitor is reattached. Closer to my original rant is the snarky observation that the Gnomes probably won't ever get around to fixing such a minor problem because they are too busy ripping and replacing the whole desktop with an entirely new set of bugs to care about fixing the few bugs in the current code that is set to get tossed out anyway. The problem I was ranting about is more about a growing fear of upgrading, or heck, even taking patches for fear the bug being fixed (which most of the time isn't actually biting ya) or feature improvement (which you probably don't need) will also break your system. What if a critical mass of users decide that once they manage to get their system working that the only safe course of action is to then disable all updates. If a bug does start biting hard check to see if that one package can be updated without dragging in lot of deps, otherwise stay put until hardware replacement time. Where does that leave things? If normal users stop taking even the updates how does wide scale testing happen? I have 'beater' machines, I have QEMU, etc. You probably have similar. Most people don't. This isn't just a thought experiment; Microsoft already faced the same problem and got around it by making Windows Update (all but) mandatory. How many people are still on XP? How many IE6 hits are in your server logs? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Wed, Sep 08, 2010 at 23:18:00 -0500, John Morris wrote: > > And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you can't You can still run the network service. You use chkconfig to turn it on. If you don't need wireless, turning off NetworkManager doesn't seem to be a problem, but it's also possible to run both at the same time. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:18:00 -0500 John Morris wrote: > On Mon, 2010-09-06 at 23:05 -0400, Chuck Ebbert wrote: > > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 18:23:01 -0500 > > John Morris wrote: > > > > > In my case I reported #573135 back in March and stopped taking > > > kernel updates. In another month or so I'll boot a live USB stick > > > of F14 and see if the bug was fixed and just didn't get closed. > > > Then it is either suck it up and run without security fixes or > > > jump distros. > > > > > > > And in the meantime these patches went into the F12 kernel via > > 2.6.32-stable, but you weren't even checking the updates: > > Sorry everyone, time to vent. > > Bah. This is why I just blocked kernel updates in the first place. > Tried updating now things are worse due to a bad combination of > Fedora policy multiplied by my own stupidity. I KNEW you were > supposed to make darned sure you were running your favorite kernel > before letting yum loose. (Don't ask, long story) That was mistake > number one. Number two came when I looked to the backup server and > found to my horror I fumbled that too, / and /home safely backed up > but no /boot! Double crap! > > So now I lost the only kernel package where everything worked. And of > course Fedora doesn't have it anymore. You can pick the original > package or the current update. Triple crap! If anyone has a pointer > to kernel-2.6.31.12-174.222.x86_64.rpm I'd really appreciate it! > Google, rpmfind, etc. all come up blank as did manually poking around > on the Fedora mirrors. You mean this one: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=157491 ? ...snip screed... I'm sorry, I hoped venting helped you, but this is not the way to move things forward. I'd suggest more help testing, good bug reports... get involved. Long rambling rant posts are not likely to help... kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 23:18 -0500, John Morris wrote: > Sorry everyone, time to vent. > > Bah. This is why I just blocked kernel updates in the first place. > Tried updating now things are worse due to a bad combination of > Fedora policy multiplied by my own stupidity. I KNEW you were supposed > to make darned sure you were running your favorite kernel before letting > yum loose. (Don't ask, long story) That was mistake number one. Number > two came when I looked to the backup server and found to my horror I > fumbled that too, / and /home safely backed up but no /boot! Double > crap! > > So now I lost the only kernel package where everything worked. And of > course Fedora doesn't have it anymore. You can pick the original > package or the current update. Triple crap! If anyone has a pointer > to kernel-2.6.31.12-174.222.x86_64.rpm I'd really appreciate it! > Google, rpmfind, etc. all come up blank as did manually poking around on > the Fedora mirrors. yum install yum-plugin-local then every pkg you install or update on your system will be saved to a local repo and will be available to you via that repo. it sucks the disk space up, obviously but you can clean it up at your leisure. -sv -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Why was a kernel-2.6.34 pushed to updates that had un-addressed bugs. / Every OS sucks!
On Mon, 2010-09-06 at 23:05 -0400, Chuck Ebbert wrote: > On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 18:23:01 -0500 > John Morris wrote: > > > In my case I reported #573135 back in March and stopped taking kernel > > updates. In another month or so I'll boot a live USB stick of F14 and > > see if the bug was fixed and just didn't get closed. Then it is either > > suck it up and run without security fixes or jump distros. > > > > And in the meantime these patches went into the F12 kernel via > 2.6.32-stable, but you weren't even checking the updates: Sorry everyone, time to vent. Bah. This is why I just blocked kernel updates in the first place. Tried updating now things are worse due to a bad combination of Fedora policy multiplied by my own stupidity. I KNEW you were supposed to make darned sure you were running your favorite kernel before letting yum loose. (Don't ask, long story) That was mistake number one. Number two came when I looked to the backup server and found to my horror I fumbled that too, / and /home safely backed up but no /boot! Double crap! So now I lost the only kernel package where everything worked. And of course Fedora doesn't have it anymore. You can pick the original package or the current update. Triple crap! If anyone has a pointer to kernel-2.6.31.12-174.222.x86_64.rpm I'd really appreciate it! Google, rpmfind, etc. all come up blank as did manually poking around on the Fedora mirrors. Ya would think there could be ONE site where someone could find old packages. Figuring out exactly where an unnoticed regression appeared would be a lot easier with a complete archive of updates. Ban direct access by yum using the user-agent string to prevent people from abusing it if needed. Seriously, if there really isn't any complete archive of Fedora updates I'd be willing to host it. Assuming the wizards who wear red headgear even have a complete dataset. With the current kernel package the ACPI error is gone but it still doesn't survive a suspend/resume so apparently there is more than one regression involved. The only kernel package I can still find that sorta suspends breaks Network-Manager so that after resume a manual kick of it is usually required. At least I think that is what is happening, it might have been an update to NM a couple days before because I think I remember having to kickstart NM once before I tried the kernel update. Now for the ranting part. Not so much about the above bug, it is after all a fairly exotic one involving power management. But about the rising misfeature problem in general. And of course Network-Manager isn't optional anymore. Oh no, you can't just revert to the original networking subsystem that actually worked, years ago, better for everything except WiFi. Onwards into the glorious future! And no Citizen, totally replacing the networking subsystem was easier than adding WPA/WPA2 support to the old one. Never question the developers! Yes it has been several years now and NM still doesn't do bridging (well if at all) multiple static IPs per interface or PPPoA but we know what is best for you. So you obviously didn't need those features. What? Virtualization really needs bridging you say? Fie on you! Some days lately I actually consider just saying screw it, boot the Win7 partition and try the Cygwin path to UNIX happiness. That multiplatform OpenSource migration path goes both ways... Folks say OO.o, FF, Putty and The Gimp are pretty stable on Windows lately.. which is more than I can say for FF on Fedora. Is there a replacement for XMMS? The last Windows I used for more than a hundred hours was Win95 so really don't know what it is like now. Want to follow the GNU Testament but the Linux desktop has been becoming less stable over the last few years and everyone says Win7 is actually getting fairly reliable at long last. But I have booted it a couple of times on this Thinkpad... enough to know the multi-monitor support in Win7 is as dodgy as Fedora's and that unlike Fedora I can't fix the breakage with a bash script bound to a hotkey. When Windows breaks you are just outta luck. No bugzilla.microsoft.com. Is this why so much malevolent glowing fruit at conferences? Is it a warning sign when so many open source devels stop eating the dog food? And to make this more than just a Fedora vs Windows rant spent this afternoon helping a coworker try Ubuntu only to discover the automounter has apparently been broke for months; the discussion on the bug has, after months, come really close to a solution but no actual update has issued yet. Really? The automounter known to be 100% broken for MONTHS? Not broken in certain corner cases, not broken for some users, 100% broken for 100% of users. Or check this one. Debian's dial up networking support is currently busted. Ok, not a lot of people still use it (Except for the 299 Windows using library patrons who dialed into our Portmasters in August.) and I might just be going senile
