Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Yes, Jerry. I, too, remember Fieseler carrying a small handgun for snakes near cave entrances during a caving trip in west Texas back in the late 1980s. As best I can remember, the gun was a small revolver, probably a snub nose 38, loaded with some kind of ammo appropriate for shooting snakes at close range with minimal risk of ricochets or dangerous stray bullets. I don't remember exactly what kind of ammo he used, but wax bullets would seem reasonable for that.Another kind of ammo that some people carry for short range snake shooting with minimal risk is shot cartridges. These are available in some handgun calibers, and they work like miniature shotgun shells. Instead of a bullet, each cartridge contains many small pellets, which have very limited range, since they slow quickly when traveling through air (and even more quickly whenever they hit anything). Back during the late 1980s, I remember talking with a uniformed park ranger or law enforcement officer of some sort who openly carried a handgun (probably a regular size 38 revolver) in Pedernales Falls State Park. He said he kept it loaded with shot cartridges, primarily for snakes. Cartridges of this type, can be expected to have more effective range and more potential hazard than wax bullets, but not nearly as much as conventional bullets. Safety glasses would be a good precaution if any of this stuff is fired at close range, since some debris could fly back towards the shooter.The main reason I can seen for carrying a gun into a cave much past the entrance would be to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands if there is no secure place to leave it near the entrance. You would not want to leave it where it might be stolen by a criminal or discovered by children. A small handgun would not be prohibitively bulky or heavy to carry in a cave pack, and it would be a simple matter to unload it first to eliminate any danger of accidental discharge. I doubt that a Pelican Case would be necessary in most cases, but it would be a good idea to pack it in something that would provide some padding and would keep out the dirt and water.Rod-Original Message- From: jerryat...@aol.com Sent: Feb 21, 2010 10:41 PM To: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net, mmin...@illinoisalumni.org, texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns Back in the day, Ronnie Fieseler carried a handgun with special wax bullets to use in cave entrances in case he encountered the odd rattlesnake. Worked quite well as I remember. The bullets had a good bit of hitting power yet melted on impact into harmless liquid that wouldn't ricochet back at you. Jerry. In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:10:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, lkpa...@sbcglobal.net writes: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PMTo: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept.Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] foremost caver
I thought Foremost was pretty good milk. -WaV On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Mixon Bill wrote: > David, I actually followed one of your links. Nobody claimed the person was > _the_ state's "foremost caver." The article merely said he was _one of_ > Alaska's foremost cavers. That could mean anything, especially considering > how many cavers there are in Alaska. I could come up with names of dozens of > Texas "foremost cavers." -- Mixon > > All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast. > > You may "reply" to the address this message > came from, but for long-term use, save: > Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu > AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org > > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Well, actually I have seen a few rattlers in caves and they occasionally rattled me a bit. Reloaders know that you can substitute #9 shot for the single big bullet and make your own loads like Ronnie's wax bullets. (Commercial "Rat shot" in a .22 rimfire doesn't do much and only makes them mad.) I recall one large rattler (~6 feet +) that the rancher shot with his shotgun, not far from a tight crawl way crack we were digging one day in central TX. Another time "well back" into Powell's I crawled up a breakdown slope and backed off from a sleeping, coiled rattler. That snake was about 3" in diameter and we detoured our upstream exploration of the water passage through a nearby bypass where we had to belly through a low dig in the flowing water. Some caves are just snake dens and I can recall at least two that we never checked out because they were just too full of rattlers. We returned to one of those in the dead of winter and pitched in some stones to the tune of many rattles; we let the snakes keep their den. Alan mentioned the AZ folks like to "carry". Four of us from TX observed that as well when camping at a location not to speak of when several cans were "plugged" by the locals. Several times when we took scout groups to River Styx we were always very careful to scope out the upper entrance because more than once we found snakes just inside. One time when half the group was just inside the entrance and the other half was outside, a curious rattler (small, ~ 2 feet) crawled out to see if he heard dinner in his cave. We carefully boarded him up with sticks and small rocks while the rest of the scouts and leaders quietly crawled past the viper. We always enjoyed telling each group to watch for "Bubba", a six footer Butch Fralia had reported seeing numerous times not far from the entrance we were using. - Pete On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Mark Minton wrote: While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
I have been caving in Arizona with cavers who carried guns while caving. It seems that other cavers are not too friendly to cavers they find in those caves that no one speaks of. Hopefully Texas won't get that way. Um, actually, I have never been caving in Arizona because they have no caves! ;-) Allan
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Back in the day, Ronnie Fieseler carried a handgun with special wax bullets to use in cave entrances in case he encountered the odd rattlesnake. Worked quite well as I remember. The bullets had a good bit of hitting power yet melted on impact into harmless liquid that wouldn't ricochet back at you. Jerry. In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:10:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, lkpa...@sbcglobal.net writes: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Where the Sun Dont Shine by Fred L. Wefer Don's iPhone. On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:10 PM, Linda Palit wrote: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Hmm, this is a good chance for mentioning this. A California caver just published a book that, yup, involves a gun in a cave. You can find it in Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/ygvllxr (and you'll see Bill Mixon's review of it at the page in Amazon) - Fofo Linda Palit wrote, on 21/2/10 19:10: Might make a good mystery/shoot-�em-up book. *From:* Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] *Sent:* Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Might make a good mystery/shoot-'em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear
[Texascavers] Re: cave guns
While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear
Re: [Texascavers] cave guns
Though not a surprise to anyone who knows me. I definitely would not have a problem with someone carrying a gun with them to a cave. Would I? Probably not mainly from a logistical problem. I don't think as many cavers as you think have problems with guns. I mean just this weekend at See my shovel I brought out a small arsenal of weapons( of course with the land owners blessing) and most of the cavers there had a blast(pun intended) with them. It was a nice after caving, pre-campfire, activity. Guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns, knives, cars, and airplanes. Matt Turner "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that."- Norman Vincent Peale From: David To: Cavers Texas Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside almost all federally owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state you are caving in accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in that state. So what size gun do you pack? A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are all packing heat. You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your guns in the entrance? What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding your guns at you? So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to defend in a situation. I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a "federally-owned" cave. But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] foremost caver
David, I actually followed one of your links. Nobody claimed the person was _the_ state's "foremost caver." The article merely said he was _one of_ Alaska's foremost cavers. That could mean anything, especially considering how many cavers there are in Alaska. I could come up with names of dozens of Texas "foremost cavers." -- Mixon All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 21 Feb 2010 19:41:35 -0000 Issue 979
texascavers Digest 21 Feb 2010 19:41:35 - Issue 979 Topics (messages 13758 through 13783): Re: Lemons Ranch Cave 13758 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 13762 by: Brian Riordan Bad air caves 13759 by: David 13760 by: Brian Riordan 13761 by: Stefan Creaser 13766 by: Gill Edigar 13767 by: Scott Boyd 13770 by: Rod Goke 13771 by: Gill Edigar 13772 by: John Brooks October, 2007 Bat Killings at Carter Caves State Park, KY Result of "Ignorance" 13763 by: Preston Forsythe Re: a new camera 13764 by: Pete Lindsley 13765 by: Pete Lindsley Web site melt down 13768 by: Bill Bentley Histo related 13769 by: David cave guns 13773 by: David 3D cave-diving movie 13774 by: David cave conservation related 13775 by: David a caver in the news 13776 by: David 13780 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com 13782 by: Barb Coons (Capocy) 13783 by: Nico Escamilla Government Canyon related 13777 by: David interesting Malaysian article 13778 by: David karst zoning ? 13779 by: David Honey Creek Cave trips March 13 and April 3 13781 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- What were we talking about?! aMrk From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] Sent: Fri 2/19/2010 1:20 PM To: Andy Zenker; mark gee Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things. G --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- So far I've escaped most of the adverse effects of bad air caving- knock on wood. Ooh! I think someones at the door, excuse me. -Brain On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:24 PM, wrote: > What were we talking about?! > > > aMrk > > -- > *From:* Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] > *Sent:* Fri 2/19/2010 1:20 PM > *To:* Andy Zenker; mark gee > *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com > *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave > > > > > > High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things. > > > > G > -- Brian Riordan 979-218-8009 (Mobile) riordan.br...@gmail.com --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses. But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing mask? Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this? Or is it better to use some kind of industrial apparatus like they use cleaning chemical tanks? Or what about what the Mt. Everest climbers use to breath? I think some of them carry small tanks made out of Kevlar? I think caver's entering known bad air caves should carry a bottle of Spare Air. http://www.spareair.com/images1/underwater.jpg Some may call this a Pony Bottle. Right? What is a good size of bottle to carry?20 cubic feet? Smaller tanks are available in 6, 8, and 13 cubic feet. The link below shows a solution: http://www.scuba.com/shop/display.asp_id_043133 Can anyone purchase these tanks from a scuba store? Or do you have to show a certification? These kind of things are not mentioned in caving books. Someone could write a good article for a caving magazine. Back in the 80's, there was an article about some Texas cavers surveying Skull Cave, and wearing oxygen tanks. I think that was considered "extreme caving," back in those days. Ref: http://www.ehso.com/RespProtection_Glos.htm David Locklear P.S.On a semi-related note, if anyone would like a geology book on the Ellenburger limestone, I found an original copy of the 1946 UT Austin publication at 1/2 Price Books for $ 30.It briefly mentions Gorman Cave, and has a thorough geology of the area. I haven't bought it yet. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_cylinder --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- SCUBA certifications are only really useful for companies that run guide and boat services, for insurance sake. You'll have no problem buying whatever equipment you want from a SCUBA shop. I worked on a human-powered submarine in college which operated fully flooded. The pilot had a SCUBA tank for his primary oxygen supply, but had a 6 minute supply of air (at shallow depths) that came with a mouth piece and was strapped to his forearm as a contingency- very light. Not quite as cool as what Obi-wan used in that travesty of a movie "The Phantom Menace", but pretty slick regardless. -B On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:49 PM, David wrote: > Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses. > > But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing > mask? > > Also, is regular
Re: [Texascavers] a caver in the news
Amen! On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:22 AM, wrote: > >> So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" << > > My guess would be by actually going in caves and not just talking about it. > > Bill > > > David wrote: > > This news article is from Saturday: > > > >http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html > > > > So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" > > > > By the number of caver Facebook friends they have? > > > > If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas. > > > > I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award, > > to be considered, "the state's foremost caver." I can name at > > least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that. > > > > - > > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > > > > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >
Re: [Texascavers] a caver in the news
Hey David, Thanks!! Steve is a great friend of ours and indeed, an awesome caver (as is his wife Rachel). We've been missing them this season in Hawaii - they normally come on our for a few weeks to map lava tubes but this year things got a little quirky. Barb Coons -- Original Message -- From: David To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] a caver in the news List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 00:56:57 -0600 This news article is from Saturday: http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" By the number of caver Facebook friends they have? If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas. I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award, to be considered, "the state's foremost caver." I can name at least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Senior Assisted Living Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=gnbhizlp0JMYp5m8F6bAYQAAJ1DVBztsEY32apQvj1KtvBv_AAYAAADNAAASUQA= - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Honey Creek Cave trips March 13 and April 3
Good morning, Texas cavers, On February 13 we had a great turnout of properly equipped and spirited cavers to help deliver cave diving gear to the upstream HS sump, six hours of travel from the shaft entrance, of our state's longest cave. Thanks again to everyone who was there. However, we aborted the trip just an hour into it because the water was higher than expected. We have rescheduled the trip for March 13, with a second trip to be held on April 3, to retrieve the dive gear. This is orginal exporation you will be supporting. Cave divers Jean "Creature" Krecja and James Brown will do a dive on March 20th through the 1,435 foot HS Sump, traverse about 1,000 feet of air-filler passage only they have seen and mapped, and dive a second sump, which has not been entered yet. We need more people for the March 13 and April 3 trips. You will need a wetsuit, which can be rented from a scuba store. Here's who I have down so far. My apologies if someone is planning to be there and you're not on my list. I've been travelling a lot with my job lately, and I may have failed to get someone on the list who has contacted me. MARCH 13 James Brown Sandi Calhoun Jared Fuller Gerry Geletzke Kristina Hager Jean "Creature" Krecja Bill Steele Ellie Thoene Diana Tomchick (Would like to have 24 cavers, so have 13 to go) APRIL 3 James Brown Sandi Calhoun Michael Cicherski Ben Hutchins Creature Niki Lake Ellie Thoene Drew Wendeborn (14 to go) If you're an able caver, this the trip for you. If you're worried about getting cold, you won't, because you won't be waiting on the divers. You will go there, turn around, and head back to the entrance. The trips will be around 12 hours long. Join us, Bill Steele Irving, Texas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] a caver in the news
>> So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" << My guess would be by actually going in caves and not just talking about it. Bill David wrote: > This news article is from Saturday: > >http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html > > So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" > > By the number of caver Facebook friends they have? > > If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas. > > I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award, > to be considered, "the state's foremost caver." I can name at > least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that. > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
