[Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question

[David]

I was thinking about adding a note that Roger could not play, but I thought that
would be rude.   Should have stuck with my instincts.

Yes, the correct answer is Gunnels Cave, about 7 miles south of the town
of Center in Shelby County.

The cave deserves to be some kind of preserve, but is so far away from any
cavers, that it would be difficult to manage.

It is an interesting cave, but has only been briefly mentioned in
caving literature.
The most in depth article was in the TSS publication entitled,
"Caves and Pseudokarst of East Texas."

Here is a group of potential spelunkers at the upstream entrance:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr62/decomaniac/Gunnels%20Cave/IMG012.jpg

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question

[caverarch]

I stick with my hunch - and I hadn't looked at the hint yet.


Roger




-Original Message-
From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:03 am
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question


Here is a hint:

Here is the western or downstream entrance looking out:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1316861930_b3f472a0a4.jpg

That is not a very good picture.

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Re: [Texascavers] Trivia cave question

[caverarch]

Gunnels?  If that's right, it's only because you led the trip I was on to it a 
decade or so ago.


Roger





-Original Message-
From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:58 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] Trivia cave question


The link below shows a photo of the eastern entrance, or the upstream entrance
to which Texas cave ?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1318273188_862bb28e5a.jpg

For scale, a 6 foot person could easily walk thru the entrance and out
the western
or downstream entrance.

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[Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question

[David]

Here is a hint:

Here is the western or downstream entrance looking out:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1316861930_b3f472a0a4.jpg

That is not a very good picture.

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[Texascavers] Trivia cave question

[David]

The link below shows a photo of the eastern entrance, or the upstream entrance
to which Texas cave ?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1318273188_862bb28e5a.jpg

For scale, a 6 foot person could easily walk thru the entrance and out
the western
or downstream entrance.

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[Texascavers] Re: Marking Stations

[Mark Minton]

For the last few years I have carried a bottle of White-Out 
(correction fluid) for marking stations.  The container has a little 
fiber brush that can mark on most surfaces, and it lasts remarkably 
well.  Seems to work better than a paint pen.  The only place it 
doesn't work well is an actively wet surface, like flowstone with 
active water flow over it.   Flagging tape marked with a sharpie is 
certainly good and conveys more information, and I use that often, 
although it is more prone to obliteration by flooding.  Another 
alternative is a shallow bolt hole, which will survive almost 
anything except being filled with mud during a flood.  If there is 
rigging left behind, a bolt and/or hanger makes a good station that 
will be there forever.


Mark Minton

At 03:00 PM 4/8/2010, Preston Forsythe wrote:
By the way IMHO the carbide light is still the best tool for making 
a survey station. Do we have any discussion on this Point?  Red 
flagging tape and a Sharpie?...The old plastic poker chip 
with a painted number and copper or stainless wire for key survey 
stations at major intersections?


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org  

[Texascavers] RE: a rigging question ?

[Mark Minton]

I have only rappelled on a single rope for pull-downs for 
several years.  The reason is that one cannot use a double rope with 
either a microrack (which I use) or a bobbin (Stop).  I used to tie a 
big stopper knot against the rig point, but there was always concern 
that the knot, no matter how large, could deform and slip through the 
maillon or whatever anchor point.  But there is a simpler way that 
does not involve using a carabiner.  One ties a figure eight with a 
loop in one side of the rope, and then passes the free end of the 
rope through the anchor and then through the loop of the knot.  You 
then rappel on the free end of the rope below the knot, which pulls 
the loop and knot up into the anchor as the stopper, and then pull 
down on the opposite line at the bottom, which frees the whole 
lot.  It's completely secure and involves only a single line rappel, 
so it works with any type of descender and any diameter of rope on 
the pull-down side.


At 04:34 PM 4/8/2010, Geary Schindel wrote:
Actually, there are a lot of advantages to rappelling on a single 
rope when doing a pull down.  This is now the preferred method used 
for pull downs for canyoneering (which I think is what the folks in 
the picture were doing) and becoming more popular for pull down 
caving trips.  For example, you can use a light weight cord for one 
half of the pull down cord which allows you to rappel twice as far 
or carry half the rope.  This also removes the possibility that you 
will repel on the wrong side of the rope since the pull down cord is 
thinner (unless you're a beginner or an idiot).  In addition, most 
caving ascending system works better on one rope in the event that 
you have to go back up.  Ascending with a single rope technique 
ascending system on two ropes doesn't work so well.  Also, since you 
don't have two ropes, you have less rope management and entanglement 
issues).  Also, you don't have to worry about making sure the two 
ends of the rope are of equal lengths.  There have been a couple of 
accidents of folks that didn't tie their rope ends together and 
didn't feed them out at the same rate.  They rappelled off the end 
of one side of the rope and then fell the rest of the 
drop.  Ascending an unblocked double rope system usually requires 
the use of two prusik knots which many people don't carry with 
them.  When using single rope techniques and a blocking system for a 
pull down rappel, you do need to make sure that you use a blocking 
knot on a carabiner and also make sure that you still tie a figure 
eight into the end of the rope you lowered down the drop and the end 
of the rope at the anchors.  You can tie your smaller cord to the 
figure eight at the top of the anchors for the pull down.  If you 
are the last one down, you need to make sure that you extend the 
smaller cord with you down the drop as you rappel.  If you remember, 
this is a variation of the cord technique which was popular some 
years ago that allowed you to explore deep caves with just one rope.


Geary

- Original Message -
From: Antonio AA
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the 
middle of the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.


> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
> Hey, David.
>
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope,
> leaving behind the maillons.
>
> - Fofo


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Louise Power]

Caving in Canada and some of the other states is beginning to sound more 
appealing.
 


From: brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com
To: fh...@townandcountryins.com; rod.g...@ieee.org; a...@gluesenkamp.com; 
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org; Texascavers@texascavers.com
CC: donarb...@mac.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:51:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel








There is a new tactic being used by the narcos.  Now if you come across a road 
block it could be either the military or the narcos.  The narcos have started 
putting up road blocks to protect their activates.  Thus if you come upon a 
road block and it is one of the naros you could be in jeopardy of getting 
caught in a shoot out.  They have used this tactic at numerous points at once 
across from the valley and this has also been utilized in Monterrey.
 
Thus if you hit a road block with a big backup or do not see soldiers my advice 
would be to turn around and get out of there ASAP.
 
Bruce

- Original Message - 
From: Fritz Holt 
To: 'Rod Goke' ; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com' ; 'Geary Schindel' ; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com 
Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel



 
Rod, 
 
Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can’t win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.  
 
Geezer
 




From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
 
In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

 

Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

 

>From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
>religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
>are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
>are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
>their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do 
>so.

 

The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide 
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare 
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain 
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, 
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing 
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture 
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the 
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we 
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

 

Rod
-Original Message- 
From: Fritz Holt 
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM 
To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "Texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel 



Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I see 
them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don’t fart until 
they’re gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old 
deer/elk hunters line? “I thought I heard an old bull snort”.
 
F.
 



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
 





Uhm, Fri

RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Geary Schindel]

Actually, there are a lot of advantages to rappelling on a single rope when 
doing a pull down.  This is now the preferred method used for pull downs for 
canyoneering (which I think is what the folks in the picture were doing) and 
becoming more popular for pull down caving trips.  For example, you can use a 
light weight cord for one half of the pull down cord which allows you to rappel 
twice as far or carry half the rope.  This also removes the possibility that 
you will repel on the wrong side of the rope since the pull down cord is 
thinner (unless you're a beginner or an idiot).  In addition, most caving 
ascending system works better on one rope in the event that you have to go back 
up.  Ascending with a single rope technique ascending system on two ropes 
doesn't work so well.  Also, since you don't have two ropes, you have less rope 
management and entanglement issues).  Also, you don't have to worry about 
making sure the two ends of the rope are of equal lengths.  There have been a 
couple of accidents of folks that didn't tie their rope ends together and 
didn't feed them out at the same rate.  They rappelled off the end of one side 
of the rope and then fell the rest of the drop.  Ascending an unblocked double 
rope system usually requires the use of two prusik knots which many people 
don't carry with them.  When using single rope techniques and a blocking system 
for a pull down rappel, you do need to make sure that you use a blocking knot 
on a carabiner and also make sure that you still tie a figure eight into the 
end of the rope you lowered down the drop and the end of the rope at the 
anchors.  You can tie your smaller cord to the figure eight at the top of the 
anchors for the pull down.  If you are the last one down, you need to make sure 
that you extend the smaller cord with you down the drop as you rappel.  If you 
remember, this is a variation of the cord technique which was popular some 
years ago that allowed you to explore deep caves with just one rope.

Geary





From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:pns_...@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 2:03 PM
To: Antonio AA; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

Yep, double rope pull down is what we do rock climbing.

Preston

- Original Message -
From: Antonio AA
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.
Sherppa




> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
> Hey, David.
>
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope,
> leaving behind the maillons.
>
> - Fofo
>
>

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with 
Hotmail. Get 
busy.

The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
Hotmail. Get 
busy.

Re: [Texascavers] Calling All Wanna Be Proofreaders and Past TC Editors!

[Charles Goldsmith]

Mark, I'll gladly help out with the perusing and double checking.
Will this be done after they've been scanned in?  Something I can do
while on break at work or waiting on dinner to cook?

Thanks
Charles

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 3:14 PM,   wrote:
>
>
> If you have a keen interest in perusing, reading, and proofreading ancient
> issues of The TEXAS CAVER, boy, do I have an offer for you!
>
>
>
> As you all may be aware, the TSA approved and moved to begin uploading all
> back issues of the TC to the TSA website for any and all inquiring minds to
> enjoy.
>
>
>
> Thus far, this is the list of back issues presently available:
>
>
>
>
>
> 2008 Quarter 4 (PDF) 18.3 MB
>
> 2008 Quarter 3 (PDF) 14.9 MB
>
> 2008 Quarter 2 (PDF) 12.8 MB
>
> 2008 Quarter 1 (PDF) 16.0 MB
>
>
>
> 2007 Quarter 4 (PDF) 37.4 MB
>
> 2007 Quarter 3 (PDF) 35.0 MB
>
> 2007 Quarter 2 (PDF) 30.4 MB
>
> 2007 Quarter 1 (PDF) 10.2 MB
>
>
>
> 2006 Quarter 4 (PDF) 12.2MB
>
>
>
> 2005 Quarter 2 (PDF) 6.9MB
>
>
>
> 2004 October (PDF) 3MB
>
>
>
> 2002 March (PDF) 1MB
>
>
>
> 2001 December (PDF) 1MB
>
>
>
>
>
> 2009 and the 1st Quarter 2010 issues are also available to all PAID members.
>
>
>
>
>
> Butch Fralia, George Veni, and I have begun rounding up back issues of the
> TC (George has the COMPLETE set).
>
>
>
> Logan McNatt was kind enough to place in my greedy little hands at the
> Spring Convention a CD containing back issues from 1955 and 1974 thru 1999.
>
>
>
> Cool!
>
>
>
> This is where YOU come in.
>
>
>
>
>
> What I’m looking to do and what I need YOU for is help in forming a Laundry
> Crew to go thru all of these back issues and to scrub clean any references
> to cave locations, maps to them, and landowner info.
>
>
>
> Just the straight skinny on the caves themselves, but, not on how to get to
> them or who owns them.
>
>
>
> This is the least we can do for all of the gracious landowners and ranchers
> who have been kind enough to allow cavers access over the years.
>
>
>
>
>
> If this is something you’d like to help out with, please contact me.
>
>
>
>
>
> Also:
>
>
>
>
>
> If you are a past editor and have the years 1956 thru 1973 in PDF format
> (yeah, right!) or 2000 thru 2007 in PDF format (hopefully, so!), please let
> me know.
>
>
>
> This would eliminate a lot of work for George and make uploading these back
> issues a lot easier.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Give me a shout if you’d like to help out, all the while peering into the
> dark and dim past of Texas caving and enjoying the exploits of some early
> trailblazing cavers you may have heard of and early explorations of some
> caves you may have already enjoyed!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Alman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
> This electronic mail transmission is confidential, may be privileged and
> should be read or retained only by the intended recipient. If you have
> received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender
> and delete it from your system.

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 20:21:23 -0000 Issue 1024

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 20:21:23 - Issue 1024

Topics (messages 14395 through 14403):

Aquifer related: BSEACD Aquifer Bulletin--Water Conservation Period
14395 by: Robin Gary

Mammut LED Headlight
14396 by: Preston Forsythe

Re: a rigging question ?
14397 by: Preston Forsythe
14398 by: Rod Goke
14399 by: Antonio AA
14400 by: Rod Goke
14401 by: Antonio AA
14403 by: Fritz Holt

Calling All Wanna Be Proofreaders and Past TC Editors!
14402 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys,

While this isn't entirely caving related... aquifers and caves go hand in
hand, so I thought I would pass this along.  The Barton Springs Aquifer
District's Water Conservation Period edition of the Aquifer Bulletin just
came out today.  Here's the announcement...

If you have any questions, the quickest way to reach me is rhg...@bseacd.org
.
Have a great one!
- Robin


**

*Hello Friends of the Aquifers!*



Spring is here!  And so is our Water Conservation Period edition of the
Aquifer Bulletin.  This newsletter is packed with information about the
Water Conservation Period that starts May 1st.



Please visit www.bseacd.org/outreach/newsletters and click on ‘Current
Newsletter’ for our Water Conservation Period edition.



Newsletter Topics include:

· Aquifer Status

· Water Conservation Period Overview

· User Drought Contingency Plans

· Home Self Irrigation Audits

· 2010 Austin Cave Festival Recap

· Dahlstrom Ranch Conservation Easement Update

· Election of District Directors

· Habitat Conservation Plan

· Drought Stages Overview



*Attention Teachers and Educators… *

Registration for The Groundwater To the Gulf: Summer Institute for Central
Texas Educators (June 22-24th) is now open!  This 3-day, hands-on, field
trip-based training is FREE and a wonderful opportunity to explore local
science issues!  Please visit www.bseacd.org/events/g2g for more
information.



*And Attention all Volunteers…*

We’re looking for help for our annual Creek Cleanup on May 15th.  This year
we’ll be working on a stretch of Williamson Creek.  We’ll provide a t-shirt,
drinks and lunch in exchange for help protecting the quality of water
recharging our aquifer.  For more information, visit:
www.bseacd.org/events/creek_cleanups



As always, if you have any questions feel free to contact me.  Thanks for
your help and interest in protecting our aquifers!

Enjoy the day,

-  Robin


-- 
sent from Robin's g-mail account
cell phone:  512-569-5659
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few months ago I recommended a new Mammut LED headlight. I now RETRACT 
that recommendation. The spotlight is too bright and the two low settings 
are Not bright enuf for me for going thru a cave. But, the burn times are 
incredible. Seven days or so on the spotlight, so I am keeping the light as 
a backup. Uses 3 AAA. Can you believe 7 days on 3 AAA? I need a spotlight 
and also a light with a setting similar to the good old carbide lite. I have 
a basement full of old lites!


By the way IMHO the carbide light is still the best tool for making a survey 
station. Do we have any discussion on this Point?  Red flagging tape and a 
Sharpie?...The old plastic poker chip with a painted number and 
copper or stainless wire for key survey stations at major intersections?



Preston in western KY

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, double rope pull down is what we do rock climbing.

Preston

  - Original Message - 
  From: Antonio AA 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?


  This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.


  Sherppa





  > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
  > From: gonza...@msu.edu
  > To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
  > 
  > Hey, David.
  > 
  > It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
  > so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
  > a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
  > confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
  > the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
  > leaving behind the maillons.
  > 
  > - Fofo
  > 
  > 


--
  The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with 
Hotmail.

RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Fritz Holt]

You guys are going to get in trouble with the word police. I should know.

F


From: Antonio AA [mailto:nelfas...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 3:13 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

lmao sorry...

< blushes...
Sherppa




List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:07:02 -0400
From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
To: nelfas...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
CC: texascavers@texascavers.com

Notice the ;-) at the end.

Rod
-Original Message-
From: Antonio AA
Sent: Apr 8, 2010 3:58 PM
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com"
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
Oo
Now I am confused.
As I know, there was no such accident. This pic is just one of many more where 
some guys are showing their last trip looking for caves in a long canyon in 
Mexico.
Sherppa




List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:20:14 -0400
From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
To: nelfas...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

That's the way these guys started out, except that instead of one climber 
rappelling on the double rope, two climbers of equal weight rappelled 
side-by-side, with one climber rappelling on each side of the double rope. This 
would have worked, except that one of the climbers was using a carabiner wrap 
rappel with the rope wrapped around the gate side of his carabiner. This caused 
the gate to open temporarily during the rappel, allowing the carabiner to 
disconnect from the climber's harness. As this unfortunate climber fell towards 
the pool below, the now unbalanced rope pulled through the anchor maillon until 
the 'biner wrap carabiner from the falling climber became jammed in the anchor 
maillon. This is the carabiner you see in the picture, with rope tangled around 
the carabiner gate. The climber in the picture remained attached to his side of 
the doubled rope, but experienced a rapid decent until the 'biner wrap 'biner 
banged into the anchor maillon. If you think this technique scares you, just 
think of how the guy with the 'biner wrap must have felt!

Rod
;-)
-Original Message-
From: Antonio AA
Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:15 PM
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com"
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.
Sherppa




> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
> Hey, David.
>
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope,
> leaving behind the maillons.
>
> - Fofo
>
>

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[Texascavers] Calling All Wanna Be Proofreaders and Past TC Editors!

[Mark . Alman]

 

If you have a keen interest in perusing, reading, and proofreading
ancient issues of The TEXAS CAVER, boy, do I have an offer for you!

 

As you all may be aware, the TSA approved and moved to begin uploading
all back issues of the TC to the TSA website for any and all inquiring
minds to enjoy.

 

Thus far, this is the list of back issues presently available:

 

 

2008 Quarter 4 (PDF) 18.3 MB
  

2008 Quarter 3 (PDF) 14.9 MB
  

2008 Quarter 2 (PDF) 12.8 MB
  

2008 Quarter 1 (PDF) 16.0 MB
  

 

2007 Quarter 4 (PDF) 37.4 MB
  

2007 Quarter 3 (PDF) 35.0 MB
  

2007 Quarter 2 (PDF) 30.4 MB
  

2007 Quarter 1 (PDF) 10.2 MB
  

 

2006 Quarter 4 (PDF) 12.2MB
  

 

2005 Quarter 2 (PDF) 6.9MB
  

 

2004 October (PDF) 3MB
  

 

2002 March (PDF) 1MB
  

 

2001 December (PDF) 1MB
  

 

 

2009 and the 1st Quarter 2010 issues are also available to all PAID
members.

 

 

Butch Fralia, George Veni, and I have begun rounding up back issues of
the TC (George has the COMPLETE set).

 

Logan McNatt was kind enough to place in my greedy little hands at the
Spring Convention a CD containing back issues from 1955 and 1974 thru
1999.

 

Cool!

 

This is where YOU come in.

 

 

What I'm looking to do and what I need YOU for is help in forming a
Laundry Crew to go thru all of these back issues and to scrub clean any
references to cave locations, maps to them, and landowner info.

 

Just the straight skinny on the caves themselves, but, not on how to get
to them or who owns them.

 

This is the least we can do for all of the gracious landowners and
ranchers who have been kind enough to allow cavers access over the
years.

 

 

If this is something you'd like to help out with, please contact me.

 

 

Also:

 

 

If you are a past editor and have the years 1956 thru 1973 in PDF format
(yeah, right!) or 2000 thru 2007 in PDF format (hopefully, so!), please
let me know.

 

This would eliminate a lot of work for George and make uploading these
back issues a lot easier.

 

 

 

Give me a shout if you'd like to help out, all the while peering into
the dark and dim past of Texas caving and enjoying the exploits of some
early trailblazing cavers you may have heard of and early explorations
of some caves you may have already enjoyed!

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

Mark Alman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

This electronic mail transmission is confidential, may be privileged and
should be read or retained only by the intended recipient. If you have
received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the
sender and delete it from your system.

RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Antonio AA]

lmao sorry...
< blushes...

Sherppa



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:07:02 -0400
From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
To: nelfas...@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
CC: texascavers@texascavers.com



Notice the ;-) at the end.
Rod

-Original Message-

From: Antonio AA 

Sent: Apr 8, 2010 3:58 PM

To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?








OoNow I am confused.As I know, there was no such accident. This pic is just one 
of many more where some guys are showing their last trip looking for caves in a 
long canyon in Mexico.

Sherppa



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:20:14 -0400
From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
To: nelfas...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?



That's the way these guys started out, except that instead of one climber 
rappelling on the double rope, two climbers of equal weight rappelled 
side-by-side, with one climber rappelling on each side of the double rope. This 
would have worked, except that one of the climbers was using a carabiner wrap 
rappel with the rope wrapped around the gate side of his carabiner. This caused 
the gate to open temporarily during the rappel, allowing the carabiner to 
disconnect from the climber's harness. As this unfortunate climber fell towards 
the pool below, the now unbalanced rope pulled through the anchor maillon until 
the 'biner wrap carabiner from the falling climber became jammed in the anchor 
maillon. This is the carabiner you see in the picture, with rope tangled around 
the carabiner gate. The climber in the picture remained attached to his side of 
the doubled rope, but experienced a rapid decent until the 'biner wrap 'biner 
banged into the anchor maillon. If you think this technique scares you, just 
think of how the guy with the 'biner wrap must have felt!
Rod ;-)

-Original Message-

From: Antonio AA 

Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:15 PM

To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?








This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.

Sherppa



> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
> 
> Hey, David.
> 
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
> leaving behind the maillons.
> 
>   - Fofo
> 
> 
  
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with 
Hotmail. Get busy.
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
Hotmail.  Get busy.


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RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Rod Goke]

Notice the ;-) at the end.Rod-Original Message-
From: Antonio AA 
Sent: Apr 8, 2010 3:58 PM
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?






OoNow I am confused.As I know, there was no such accident. This pic is just one of many more where some guys are showing their last trip looking for caves in a long canyon in Mexico.SherppaDate: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:20:14 -0400From: rod.g...@earthlink.netTo: nelfas...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

That's the way these guys started out, except that instead of one climber rappelling on the double rope, two climbers of equal weight rappelled side-by-side, with one climber rappelling on each side of the double rope. This would have worked, except that one of the climbers was using a carabiner wrap rappel with the rope wrapped around the gate side of his carabiner. This caused the gate to open temporarily during the rappel, allowing the carabiner to disconnect from the climber's harness. As this unfortunate climber fell towards the pool below, the now unbalanced rope pulled through the anchor maillon until the 'biner wrap carabiner from the falling climber became jammed in the anchor maillon. This is the carabiner you see in the picture, with rope tangled around the carabiner gate. The climber in the picture remained attached to his side of the doubled rope, but experienced a rapid decent until the 'biner wrap 'biner banged into the anchor maillon. If you think this technique scares you, just think of how the guy with the 'biner wrap must have felt!Rod ;-)-Original Message-
From: Antonio AA 
Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:15 PM
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?






This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.Sherppa> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700> From: gonza...@msu.edu> To: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?> > Hey, David.> > It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper > so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to > a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent > confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of > the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, > leaving behind the maillons.> >   - Fofo> >  		 	   		  The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy. 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.


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RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Antonio AA]

OoNow I am confused.As I know, there was no such accident. This pic is just one 
of many more where some guys are showing their last trip looking for caves in a 
long canyon in Mexico.

Sherppa



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:20:14 -0400
From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
To: nelfas...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?



That's the way these guys started out, except that instead of one climber 
rappelling on the double rope, two climbers of equal weight rappelled 
side-by-side, with one climber rappelling on each side of the double rope. This 
would have worked, except that one of the climbers was using a carabiner wrap 
rappel with the rope wrapped around the gate side of his carabiner. This caused 
the gate to open temporarily during the rappel, allowing the carabiner to 
disconnect from the climber's harness. As this unfortunate climber fell towards 
the pool below, the now unbalanced rope pulled through the anchor maillon until 
the 'biner wrap carabiner from the falling climber became jammed in the anchor 
maillon. This is the carabiner you see in the picture, with rope tangled around 
the carabiner gate. The climber in the picture remained attached to his side of 
the doubled rope, but experienced a rapid decent until the 'biner wrap 'biner 
banged into the anchor maillon. If you think this technique scares you, just 
think of how the guy with the 'biner wrap must have felt!
Rod ;-)

-Original Message-

From: Antonio AA 

Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:15 PM

To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?








This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.

Sherppa



> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
> 
> Hey, David.
> 
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
> leaving behind the maillons.
> 
>   - Fofo
> 
> 
  
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with 
Hotmail. Get busy.
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
Hotmail.  Get busy.


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RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Rod Goke]

That's the way these guys started out, except that instead of one climber rappelling on the double rope, two climbers of equal weight rappelled side-by-side, with one climber rappelling on each side of the double rope. This would have worked, except that one of the climbers was using a carabiner wrap rappel with the rope wrapped around the gate side of his carabiner. This caused the gate to open temporarily during the rappel, allowing the carabiner to disconnect from the climber's harness. As this unfortunate climber fell towards the pool below, the now unbalanced rope pulled through the anchor maillon until the 'biner wrap carabiner from the falling climber became jammed in the anchor maillon. This is the carabiner you see in the picture, with rope tangled around the carabiner gate. The climber in the picture remained attached to his side of the doubled rope, but experienced a rapid decent until the 'biner wrap 'biner banged into the anchor maillon. If you think this technique scares you, just think of how the guy with the 'biner wrap must have felt!Rod ;-)-Original Message-
From: Antonio AA 
Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:15 PM
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?






This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.Sherppa> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700> From: gonza...@msu.edu> To: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?> > Hey, David.> > It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper > so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to > a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent > confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of > the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, > leaving behind the maillons.> >   - Fofo> >  		 	   		  The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy. 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.


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Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Preston Forsythe]

Yep, double rope pull down is what we do rock climbing.

Preston

  - Original Message - 
  From: Antonio AA 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?


  This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.


  Sherppa





  > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
  > From: gonza...@msu.edu
  > To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
  > 
  > Hey, David.
  > 
  > It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
  > so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
  > a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
  > confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
  > the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
  > leaving behind the maillons.
  > 
  > - Fofo
  > 
  > 


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Hotmail. Get busy. 

--
  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
Hotmail. Get busy. 

[Texascavers] Mammut LED Headlight

[Preston Forsythe]

A few months ago I recommended a new Mammut LED headlight. I now RETRACT 
that recommendation. The spotlight is too bright and the two low settings 
are Not bright enuf for me for going thru a cave. But, the burn times are 
incredible. Seven days or so on the spotlight, so I am keeping the light as 
a backup. Uses 3 AAA. Can you believe 7 days on 3 AAA? I need a spotlight 
and also a light with a setting similar to the good old carbide lite. I have 
a basement full of old lites!


By the way IMHO the carbide light is still the best tool for making a survey 
station. Do we have any discussion on this Point?  Red flagging tape and a 
Sharpie?...The old plastic poker chip with a painted number and 
copper or stainless wire for key survey stations at major intersections?



Preston in western KY


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[Texascavers] Aquifer related: BSEACD Aquifer Bulletin--Water Conservation Period

[Robin Gary]

Hi guys,

While this isn't entirely caving related... aquifers and caves go hand in
hand, so I thought I would pass this along.  The Barton Springs Aquifer
District's Water Conservation Period edition of the Aquifer Bulletin just
came out today.  Here's the announcement...

If you have any questions, the quickest way to reach me is rhg...@bseacd.org
.
Have a great one!
- Robin


**

*Hello Friends of the Aquifers!*



Spring is here!  And so is our Water Conservation Period edition of the
Aquifer Bulletin.  This newsletter is packed with information about the
Water Conservation Period that starts May 1st.



Please visit www.bseacd.org/outreach/newsletters and click on ‘Current
Newsletter’ for our Water Conservation Period edition.



Newsletter Topics include:

· Aquifer Status

· Water Conservation Period Overview

· User Drought Contingency Plans

· Home Self Irrigation Audits

· 2010 Austin Cave Festival Recap

· Dahlstrom Ranch Conservation Easement Update

· Election of District Directors

· Habitat Conservation Plan

· Drought Stages Overview



*Attention Teachers and Educators… *

Registration for The Groundwater To the Gulf: Summer Institute for Central
Texas Educators (June 22-24th) is now open!  This 3-day, hands-on, field
trip-based training is FREE and a wonderful opportunity to explore local
science issues!  Please visit www.bseacd.org/events/g2g for more
information.



*And Attention all Volunteers…*

We’re looking for help for our annual Creek Cleanup on May 15th.  This year
we’ll be working on a stretch of Williamson Creek.  We’ll provide a t-shirt,
drinks and lunch in exchange for help protecting the quality of water
recharging our aquifer.  For more information, visit:
www.bseacd.org/events/creek_cleanups



As always, if you have any questions feel free to contact me.  Thanks for
your help and interest in protecting our aquifers!

Enjoy the day,

-  Robin


-- 
sent from Robin's g-mail account
cell phone:  512-569-5659

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 17:50:57 -0000 Issue 1023

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 17:50:57 - Issue 1023

Topics (messages 14389 through 14394):

Re: TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location TBA
14389 by: John.Schneider

Re: Mexican Travel
14390 by: Greg Passmore
14393 by: Bruce Anderson
14394 by: Bruce Anderson

Re: a rigging question ?
14391 by: Antonio AA

LED Technology Booming- 900 Lumens for 90 bucks
14392 by: zachrbroussard.neo.tamu.edu

Administrivia:

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--
--- Begin Message ---
I agree.  I can remember OTR's (that's what the TCR was called then) that were 
so hot that one could not sleep comfortably.

John
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kurt L. Menking 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 4:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location 
TBA


  Back when we had TCR in Sept we had several years in a row that were impacted 
by hurricanes so they moved it to mid October.  We still get the occasional 
heavy rain event at TCR, but all in all I think the Mid October date is working 
well.

   

  Kurt

   

  From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:04 PM
  To: 'ellie :)'; texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location 
TBA

   

  Hey Ellie,

   

  We promise not to shoot the messenger. That's because she did such a great 
job with the TSA convention and we want more.

   

  Any chance that the board would consider moving this fun event up a week or 
two in the future for possibly better swimming weather? 

   

  Fritz

   


--

  From: ellie :) [mailto:ellie.tho...@gmail.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:50 PM
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location TBA

   

  Texas Caver Reunion

  Save the date for October 15-17th, 2010 - Location to be announced

  The BIGGEST Caver Party in the state of TEXAS

  http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TCR/index.html

  (I am only the messenger)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our film crew has made about 6 trips over the last two years to  
Mexico.  We are unfortunately very visible and a good target.  Much of  
our travel have in "hot zones".  Despite this, we have never had any  
problems. That being said, we also do not film in border towns.   Last  
trip, it might be worth mentioning however, we did hit a LOT of time  
consuming road blocks from the military.  They were always very polite.


On another note... El Abra is definitely closed for now.  We spent  
quite a bit of energy trying to talk the owner into letting us go into  
the cave.  He reported that they had problems with drug parties mixed  
with firearms in the cave.  A nearby mining company is also eyeing his  
land.  As such, he is concerned that the government will take his  
property (seizure due to drugs or mining company making a case for  
valuable minerals).  It's all a bit complicated because technically  
the government owns all the caves in Mexico and the land owners are  
supposed to provide access... but like most things in Mexico, it is a  
bit more involved.  Things are changing in Mexico.  A lot more fences,  
a lot more private ownership issues. 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,

Yesterday two men tried to hyjack a Ford F-250 from a couple of snowbirds.  
They were not successful but the couple was pretty shookup.  One of the 
hyjackers actually was in the cab.

In December there was a shoot out on the southside of Progresso.  that is the 
only trouble that I have heard of in Progresso but keep in mind its proximity 
to Rio Bravo which is a Zeta hang out.

Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 
  To: Bruce Anderson 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:07 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


  Hi, Bruce!

   

   

  My in-laws live in Weslaco and used to go into Mexico at Progresso.

   

  Have you heard of any trouble or incidents near their area?

   

   

  Thanks,

   

  Mark

   

   

   

  From: Bruce Anderson [mailto:brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:31 AM
  To: Fritz Holt; 'Rod Goke'; a...@gluesenkamp.com; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

  I live in McAllen and our house sits about 14 miles from Mexico.  I still do 
a lot of business in Mexico on a regular basis.  With all of this said the only 
border town that I have been comfortable in the past year was Mexicali.  Of 
course now they have had an earthquake.  I have been through several minor ones 

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Bruce Anderson]

There is a new tactic being used by the narcos.  Now if you come across a road 
block it could be either the military or the narcos.  The narcos have started 
putting up road blocks to protect their activates.  Thus if you come upon a 
road block and it is one of the naros you could be in jeopardy of getting 
caught in a shoot out.  They have used this tactic at numerous points at once 
across from the valley and this has also been utilized in Monterrey.

Thus if you hit a road block with a big backup or do not see soldiers my advice 
would be to turn around and get out of there ASAP.

Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  To: 'Rod Goke' ; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com' ; 'Geary Schindel' ; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


   

  Rod, 

   

  Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.  

   

  Geezer

   


--

  From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
  To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

  In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

   

  Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

   

  From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do so.

   

  The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide 
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare 
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain 
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, 
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing 
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture 
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the 
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we 
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

   

  Rod

  -Original Message- 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM 
  To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , 
"Texascavers@texascavers.com" 
  Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel 




  Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I 
see them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don't fart 
until they're gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old 
deer/elk hunters line? "I thought I heard an old bull snort".

   

  F.

   


--

  From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
  To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed than 
all of us combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last 
year.  They 

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Bruce Anderson]

Mark,

Yesterday two men tried to hyjack a Ford F-250 from a couple of snowbirds.  
They were not successful but the couple was pretty shookup.  One of the 
hyjackers actually was in the cab.

In December there was a shoot out on the southside of Progresso.  that is the 
only trouble that I have heard of in Progresso but keep in mind its proximity 
to Rio Bravo which is a Zeta hang out.

Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 
  To: Bruce Anderson 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:07 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


  Hi, Bruce!

   

   

  My in-laws live in Weslaco and used to go into Mexico at Progresso.

   

  Have you heard of any trouble or incidents near their area?

   

   

  Thanks,

   

  Mark

   

   

   

  From: Bruce Anderson [mailto:brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:31 AM
  To: Fritz Holt; 'Rod Goke'; a...@gluesenkamp.com; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

  I live in McAllen and our house sits about 14 miles from Mexico.  I still do 
a lot of business in Mexico on a regular basis.  With all of this said the only 
border town that I have been comfortable in the past year was Mexicali.  Of 
course now they have had an earthquake.  I have been through several minor ones 
there.  Actually friends of mine tell me that the damage was not that severe.

   

  Anyhow back to the point, things have deteriorated badly in the Texas valley 
along the border.  If you come across any of the Narcos, you can figure that 
they are probably better armed than you are going to be.  That said, I do carry 
as I have decided I will not go down without a fight.  Obviously while in 
Mexico I would not be carrying anything unless you want to see the inside of a 
Mexican jail.  Not pretty..  In the past week there have been about 30 
killed along the Rio Grand Valley border.  While most were involved in the drug 
business not all were.  There were a couple of kids killed over by Falcon Lake 
caught in the cross fire.

   

  The problem is that bullets just fly.  If you get caught in the cross fire or 
are behind the line of fire, you are in real danger.  If you are driving a Ford 
F-250 or a Suburban, you are in real danger as they are the Narcos favorite 
vehicles.  For about 5 or 6 weeks now every night on the local news there is 
something about killings, kidnapping or theft that has to do with the border 
drug business.  Tell anyone around here that there is not yet spill over into 
the US and they will know that you are full of it.  

   

  My mode of operation is to always be fully aware of my surroundings whether 
in Mexico or the US.  In the US, I am always armed either on my person or in my 
truck.  Driving in and out of the valley is also a concern.  As long as you are 
moving it is no problem.  If you have car trouble you are SOL between the 
border and George West.  There is plenty of drugs and people movement through 
this area.

   

  I guess there are some in our community that feel guns are not necessary.  
They probably are not if you never come across a problem.  I just do not feel 
that I am going down without a fight.  Rest assured if you come across some of 
the Naros on this side of the border you are in serious trouble and are in 
great jeopardy of being killed.  They just do not care.

   

  Bruce 

- Original Message - 

From: Fritz Holt 

To: 'Rod Goke' ; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com' ; 'Geary Schindel' ; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Cc: 'Don Arburn' 

Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

 

 

Rod, 

 

Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in 
the use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all 
but you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from 
the beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged 
perps seem to like groups of potential victims.  

 

Geezer

 




From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

 

In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often 
remain competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have 
diminished. Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the 
predators, otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running 
from a hostile dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

 

Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he 
may be deterred from attacking by the thought 

[Texascavers] LED Technology Booming- 900 Lumens for 90 bucks

[zachrbroussard]

Howdy,

There is a relatively new light called the Magicshine made for night biking 
that produces 900 lumens (per manufacturer) that will only cost you $90. The 
actual output for this light is said to be around 700 lumens on high based on 
reviews. With the included battery pack, the light will last for around three 
hours on high. The step up from the 900 lumen model claims 1400 lumens (the 900 
lumen light with two 250 lumen lights attached) and can be stepped from 5%-100% 
with the battery lasting for 250 hours at 5% (5% of 1400= 70 lumens for 250 
hours!) Of course actual light output and battery life won't be quite as good 
as stated by the manufacturer. However, for $90 for the 900 lumen model and 
$130 for the 1400 lumen model, even if the light output is 50% of what is 
claimed, it is well worth the price.

As the light is made for biking, it probably is not made to caving standards. 
It is water resistant however and with a few DIY improvements can be made 
nearly water proof. I am uncertain of the durability of the light. I tried 
finding someone online who had tried the light out of caving but I have only 
found it to be used by bikers so far.

The light is manufactured in Hong Kong but can be bought from a U.S. dealer at 
www.geomangear.com.

Even if this light is not quite constructed well enough for caving, it is 
evidence that LED technology is vastly improving and I'm sure it won't be long 
until a cave ready, 900 lumen, $100 light can be had.



Zach Broussard
Aggie Speleological Society

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RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Antonio AA]

This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of 
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.

Sherppa



> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
> 
> Hey, David.
> 
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
> leaving behind the maillons.
> 
>   - Fofo
> 
> 
  
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with 
Hotmail. Get busy.
_
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
Hotmail. 
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5

RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Greg Passmore]

Our film crew has made about 6 trips over the last two years to  
Mexico.  We are unfortunately very visible and a good target.  Much of  
our travel have in "hot zones".  Despite this, we have never had any  
problems. That being said, we also do not film in border towns.   Last  
trip, it might be worth mentioning however, we did hit a LOT of time  
consuming road blocks from the military.  They were always very polite.


On another note... El Abra is definitely closed for now.  We spent  
quite a bit of energy trying to talk the owner into letting us go into  
the cave.  He reported that they had problems with drug parties mixed  
with firearms in the cave.  A nearby mining company is also eyeing his  
land.  As such, he is concerned that the government will take his  
property (seizure due to drugs or mining company making a case for  
valuable minerals).  It's all a bit complicated because technically  
the government owns all the caves in Mexico and the land owners are  
supposed to provide access... but like most things in Mexico, it is a  
bit more involved.  Things are changing in Mexico.  A lot more fences,  
a lot more private ownership issues. 


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Re: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location TBA

[John.Schneider]

I agree.  I can remember OTR's (that's what the TCR was called then) that were 
so hot that one could not sleep comfortably.

John
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kurt L. Menking 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 4:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location 
TBA


  Back when we had TCR in Sept we had several years in a row that were impacted 
by hurricanes so they moved it to mid October.  We still get the occasional 
heavy rain event at TCR, but all in all I think the Mid October date is working 
well.

   

  Kurt

   

  From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:04 PM
  To: 'ellie :)'; texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location 
TBA

   

  Hey Ellie,

   

  We promise not to shoot the messenger. That's because she did such a great 
job with the TSA convention and we want more.

   

  Any chance that the board would consider moving this fun event up a week or 
two in the future for possibly better swimming weather? 

   

  Fritz

   


--

  From: ellie :) [mailto:ellie.tho...@gmail.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:50 PM
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] TCR-SAVE THE DATE-October 15-17th, 2010-Location TBA

   

  Texas Caver Reunion

  Save the date for October 15-17th, 2010 - Location to be announced

  The BIGGEST Caver Party in the state of TEXAS

  http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TCR/index.html

  (I am only the messenger)

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 16:31:03 -0000 Issue 1022

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 16:31:03 - Issue 1022

Topics (messages 14376 through 14388):

a caving video
14376 by: David
14380 by: Josh Rubinstein

Unimog on e-Bay
14377 by: David
14378 by: Rod Goke
14379 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: Mexican Travel
14381 by: Rod Goke
14382 by: Rod Goke
14386 by: Fritz Holt
14388 by: Bruce Anderson

a rigging question ?
14383 by: David
14385 by: Fofo
14387 by: Rod Goke

the mine rescue
14384 by: David

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


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To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a caving video made about 2 weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWU1yDkbe7w

It shows a newly discovered cave passage in southern
Indiana.

These cavers have been putting caving videos on YouTube
for at least 4 years.

Note the caver with the Stenlight, and the back-up ceiling
burner, and the 2 side-mounted smaller lights.   That is
a nice set-up for a cold wet cave.   I think that is Ty Spatta.

It looks like 2 of the cavers are using walking sticks, but the yellow one
is actually a big crow bar.

2 of the cavers are wearing cotton.

Note how in one scene, a caver above helps the caver below with his
pack, while the caver is climbing up thru a tight spot.   I like that.

Note they had to lug a heavy sledge hammer all the way
to the lead.

It is a good video, considering it was a survey trip, and a cold
wet cave with a lot of crawling.

Sometimes I wish I was born and raised in southern Indiana.

David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,

Thanks for turning us on to a great video.

They are wearing wetsuits.  The coveralls, cotton or otherwise, are used to
protect the suit.

Josh

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:44 AM, David  wrote:

> Here is a caving video made about 2 weeks ago.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWU1yDkbe7w
>
> It shows a newly discovered cave passage in southern
> Indiana.
>
> These cavers have been putting caving videos on YouTube
> for at least 4 years.
>
> Note the caver with the Stenlight, and the back-up ceiling
> burner, and the 2 side-mounted smaller lights.   That is
> a nice set-up for a cold wet cave.   I think that is Ty Spatta.
>
> It looks like 2 of the cavers are using walking sticks, but the yellow one
> is actually a big crow bar.
>
> 2 of the cavers are wearing cotton.
>
> Note how in one scene, a caver above helps the caver below with his
> pack, while the caver is climbing up thru a tight spot.   I like that.
>
> Note they had to lug a heavy sledge hammer all the way
> to the lead.
>
> It is a good video, considering it was a survey trip, and a cold
> wet cave with a lot of crawling.
>
> Sometimes I wish I was born and raised in southern Indiana.
>
> David Locklear
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36

Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?


-Original Message-
>From: David 
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM
>To: Cavers Texas 
>Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
>
>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
>
>-
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Hydraulic lines for the house jacks.TApr 8, 2010 05:12:26 AM, rod.g...@ieee.org wrote:What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?-Original Message->From: David >Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM>To: Cavers Texas >Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36>>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.>>->Visit our website: http://texascavers.com>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>---

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Bruce Anderson]

I live in McAllen and our house sits about 14 miles from Mexico.  I still do a 
lot of business in Mexico on a regular basis.  With all of this said the only 
border town that I have been comfortable in the past year was Mexicali.  Of 
course now they have had an earthquake.  I have been through several minor ones 
there.  Actually friends of mine tell me that the damage was not that severe.

Anyhow back to the point, things have deteriorated badly in the Texas valley 
along the border.  If you come across any of the Narcos, you can figure that 
they are probably better armed than you are going to be.  That said, I do carry 
as I have decided I will not go down without a fight.  Obviously while in 
Mexico I would not be carrying anything unless you want to see the inside of a 
Mexican jail.  Not pretty..  In the past week there have been about 30 
killed along the Rio Grand Valley border.  While most were involved in the drug 
business not all were.  There were a couple of kids killed over by Falcon Lake 
caught in the cross fire.

The problem is that bullets just fly.  If you get caught in the cross fire or 
are behind the line of fire, you are in real danger.  If you are driving a Ford 
F-250 or a Suburban, you are in real danger as they are the Narcos favorite 
vehicles.  For about 5 or 6 weeks now every night on the local news there is 
something about killings, kidnapping or theft that has to do with the border 
drug business.  Tell anyone around here that there is not yet spill over into 
the US and they will know that you are full of it.  

My mode of operation is to always be fully aware of my surroundings whether in 
Mexico or the US.  In the US, I am always armed either on my person or in my 
truck.  Driving in and out of the valley is also a concern.  As long as you are 
moving it is no problem.  If you have car trouble you are SOL between the 
border and George West.  There is plenty of drugs and people movement through 
this area.

I guess there are some in our community that feel guns are not necessary.  They 
probably are not if you never come across a problem.  I just do not feel that I 
am going down without a fight.  Rest assured if you come across some of the 
Naros on this side of the border you are in serious trouble and are in great 
jeopardy of being killed.  They just do not care.

Bruce 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  To: 'Rod Goke' ; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com' ; 'Geary Schindel' ; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


   

  Rod, 

   

  Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.  

   

  Geezer

   


--

  From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
  To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

  In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

   

  Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

   

  From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do so.

   

  The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel o

Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Rod Goke]

Sure, David. The upper bolt supports the entire weight of the climber. The 
lower bolt helps to keep the rope parallel to the rock surface such that it 
does not pull the upper bolt out from the rock. The lower bolt also provides 
somewhat of a backup to the upper bolt, in case the upper bolt should fail, but 
I'd hate to rely on this. The locking carabiner with rope tangled around it is 
all that remains of the previous climber, who attempted to do a carabiner wrap 
rappel. Notice that rope is wrapped around the gate of this carabiner, which is 
why the gate temporarily opened, dropping the unfortunate climber into the pool 
below. The climber in the photo is looking down, trying to figure out where the 
previous climber landed. During all this excitement, no one thought to check 
the rigging.

You had to ask.

Rod  ;-)


-Original Message-
>From: David 
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 11:16 AM
>To: Cavers Texas 
>Subject: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
>Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?
>
>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg
>
>I would not have clipped on to that.
>
>-
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RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Fritz Holt]

Rod,

Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.

Geezer


From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

>From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
>religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
>are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
>are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
>their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do 
>so.

The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide 
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare 
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain 
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, 
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing 
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture 
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the 
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we 
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

Rod
-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM
To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "Texascavers@texascavers.com"
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I see 
them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don't fart until 
they're gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old 
deer/elk hunters line? "I thought I heard an old bull snort".

F.


From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed than all of us 
combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last year.  They 
all had guns too but nothing like the gear the bad guys had.  This whole 
Mexican border violence thing makes me wonder:
How's the caving in Canada these days?

Andy


Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz Holt  wrote:

From: Fritz Holt 
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
To: "'Geary Schindel'" , 
"Texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Cc: "'Don Arburn'" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM
Thanks, Geary.

I'm sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to "safe" caving areas in 
Mexico but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be one of 
them.

I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and Punkin are 
allowed to be armed during their visit, "just in case".
The border patrol check point is located on my good friend's 8,000 acre deer 
lease where I dove hunt each year and is eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. I 
will be armed come September 1st.

Geezer who wants to remain one.

Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[Fofo]

Hey, David.

It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper 
so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to 
a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent 
confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of 
the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, 
leaving behind the maillons.


 - Fofo

David wrote, on 8/4/10 8:16 :

Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg

I would not have clipped on to that.

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[Texascavers] the mine rescue

[David]

Associated Press reporters wrote today:

"Rescuers had to turn back..

they were trying to see through total darkness with only a cap lamp to
light the way."


On a related note,

would rebreathers help mine rescuers, or would the dangerous gases
still be a problem?

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[Texascavers] a rigging question ?

[David]

Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg

I would not have clipped on to that.

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RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

[Rod Goke]

In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do so.The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.Rod-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt 
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM
To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "Texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel



























Well, I have had my three score and ten
plus five but want a few more. If I see them coming first, maybe I can hide in
the bushes and hope I don’t fart until they’re gone. That would be
a preview of things to come. What is the old deer/elk hunters line? “I
thought I heard an old bull snort”.

 

F.

 







From: Andy Gluesenkamp
[mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010
11:47 AM
To: 'Geary
 Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE:
Mexican Travel

 


 
  
  
  Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed
  than all of us combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got
  hassled last year.  They all had guns too but nothing like the gear
  the bad guys had.  This whole Mexican border violence thing makes
  me wonder:
  
  
  How's the caving in Canada these days?
  
  
   
  
  
  Andy
  
  
   
  
  
  
  Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
  (512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com
  
  --- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz
   Holt 
  wrote:
  
  
  
  From: Fritz Holt
  
  Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
  To: "'Geary Schindel'"
  , "Texascavers@texascavers.com"
  
  Cc: "'Don Arburn'" 
  Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM
  
  
  Thanks, Geary.
  
   
  
  I’m sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to
  “safe” caving areas in Mexico
  but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be one of
  them.
  
   
  I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and
  Punkin are allowed to be armed during their visit, “just in
  case”.
  
  The border patrol check point is located on my good
  friend’s 8,000 acre deer lease where I dove hunt each year and is
  eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. I will be armed come September 1st.
  
   
  Geezer who wants to remain one.
   
   
  
 


 








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Re: [Texascavers] Mexican Travel

[Rod Goke]

Gill might be right about most cavers not having much the Zetas would want when they are looking for robbery victims; but according to Geary Schindel's message April 6, the Zetas are now looking for Americans they can publicly torture and kill as a show of defiance. You don't have to have much in the way of possessions to be vulnerable to torture and death.Rod-Original Message-
From: flea56 
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Gill Edigar 
Cc: Cavers Texas 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mexican Travel

The advice Gil gives comes from the man who was shot rafting. Lightning may not strike twice though.On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:

-Original Message-
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 

I was in the border town of Reynosa for 19 hours yesterday.   I was down there on Thursday and was told that both the old Reynosa bridge and the Pharr bridge were closed for a few hours on Tuesday or Wednesday while the street department cleaned up some blood and brass following a little dispute. It didn't happen at the bridges but in a colonia that lies sorta in between the two, so they didn't want people turistaing around in the area 'til the fracas settled down.  

At any rate, we are all small fish in a big ocean. Most of us don't have anything the Zetas want--they have more money, more drugs, more cars & pickups, and more big guns than all cavers put together. There's always a chance that we could encounter some of them by accident--just like getting struck by lightening, run over by a semi, or becoming voluntarily victims of errant fear mongers. You're probably in no more danger crossing the Pharr bridge than watching the news on Fox cable.

--Ediger



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Re: [Texascavers] a caving video

[Josh Rubinstein]

David,

Thanks for turning us on to a great video.

They are wearing wetsuits.  The coveralls, cotton or otherwise, are used to
protect the suit.

Josh

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:44 AM, David  wrote:

> Here is a caving video made about 2 weeks ago.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWU1yDkbe7w
>
> It shows a newly discovered cave passage in southern
> Indiana.
>
> These cavers have been putting caving videos on YouTube
> for at least 4 years.
>
> Note the caver with the Stenlight, and the back-up ceiling
> burner, and the 2 side-mounted smaller lights.   That is
> a nice set-up for a cold wet cave.   I think that is Ty Spatta.
>
> It looks like 2 of the cavers are using walking sticks, but the yellow one
> is actually a big crow bar.
>
> 2 of the cavers are wearing cotton.
>
> Note how in one scene, a caver above helps the caver below with his
> pack, while the caver is climbing up thru a tight spot.   I like that.
>
> Note they had to lug a heavy sledge hammer all the way
> to the lead.
>
> It is a good video, considering it was a survey trip, and a cold
> wet cave with a lot of crawling.
>
> Sometimes I wish I was born and raised in southern Indiana.
>
> David Locklear
>
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>

Re: Re: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay

[tbsamsel]

Hydraulic lines for the house jacks.TApr 8, 2010 05:12:26 AM, rod.g...@ieee.org wrote:What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?-Original Message->From: David >Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM>To: Cavers Texas >Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36>>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.>>->Visit our website: http://texascavers.com>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>-Visit our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comFor additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

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Re: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay

[Rod Goke]

What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?


-Original Message-
>From: David 
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM
>To: Cavers Texas 
>Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
>
>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
>
>-
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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