date:20100525

Re: [Texascavers] interesting website of Sizes, grades, units, scales, calendars, chronologies; all things quantifiable quantified

2010-05-25 Thread Chris Vreeland


It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.


On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:


The list of shortest caves would be really long.

Gill Edigar wrote:
Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the  
World?  How

come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
--Ediger

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt  
lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:



Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to  
look at.
It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified  
claim, e.g.
under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but  
only the
largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and  
historic
measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in  
a far away

place, or time.

http://www.sizes.com/


































































































































































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RE: [Texascavers] Austin's Night of the Bat

2010-05-25 Thread Mark . Alman

Sounds like a cool event, Jim, and wish I could attend.

 

 

But, my son is getting married that weekend and it probably would be
best that I attend.

 

 

As a plus, my future daughter-in-law is a caver, so we pick up another
one in the family!

 

 

For those attending:

 

 

Please, please, take photos and think about writing a report.

 

 

This sounds like a lot of fun and the Batmobile and Adam West gracing
the pages of The TEXAS CAVER would be bat-tastic!

 

 

Holy cornball jokes, Batman!

 

 

I'll retreat to the Bat Cave now.

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 5:22 PM
To: CaveTex
Subject: [Texascavers] Austin's Night of the Bat

 

Cavers,

Check out www.nightofthebat.com http://www.nightofthebat.com , and
especially take a look at the poster (accessed by the link at the bottom
of the page).  On June 6, Austin is hosting a celebration of all things
batty, including a live appearance by Adam West and the 1966 Batmobile.
There will also be a showing of the 1966 Batman film (the one that
launched the popular TV series of my youth) at the Paramount Theater,
And a whole host of events will occur on the Congress Avenue Bridge,
which will be closed off from 2 to 10.  Naturally, Bat Conservation
International will be there in full force, having 2 informational and
sales tables at each end of the bridge.  But we need help!  If you are
available that afternoon and evening, we want to give you a free T-shirt
just to wander around the crowd, answer simple questions (if you know
the answers), and point people to the BCI tables.  I will be there at
one of them, answering what questions I can.  We would love to have a
really visible presence in the crowd, and hope to get 100-150 volunteers
wearing our shirts.  If you think you might be interested, send me your
name, address, telephone number(s), and email address, and I will pass
that information along to our development folks here who are organizing
the volunteer corps.  They will then get back to you with details.  Even
if you can't help, I hope you can still stop by this free and fun event.

Jim Crash Kennedy, BCI

[Texascavers] old Las Pozas (Xilitla) pics

2010-05-25 Thread Greg Passmore

All - I am working with an architect in Mexico City to restore Las  
Pozas.  If you have old photos or the place, we really need them for  
historical reference. There are several places where little archival  
material exists and there is ambiguity in how Edward James had it  
built.  A lot of Texas cavers visited there in the past (including  
myself) while caving in the Xilitla area. 
 


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[Texascavers] Naica on BBC

2010-05-25 Thread Mark Minton

This is a bit dated, but I don't remember hearing anything 
about it before.  Back in January BBC did a show on Naica and the 
giant gypsum 
crystals.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8466493.stm 
It is available on 
DVD:  http://www.bbcshop.com/History/How-Earth-Made-Us-DVD/invt/bbcdvd3147.


Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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RE: [Texascavers] Naica on BBC

2010-05-25 Thread Mark . Alman


Thanks for posting this video on one of the most remarkable caves I have
ever seen or read about, Mark!

It got me to thinking, though.


Has any Texas caver ever had the good fortune of being able to visit
this cave?


Now, THERE'S a trip report I'd like to read in the TC!!



Mark






-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:49 AM
To: nmca...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Naica on BBC


 This is a bit dated, but I don't remember hearing anything 
about it before.  Back in January BBC did a show on Naica and the 
giant gypsum 
crystals.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8466493.stm 
It is available on 
DVD:
http://www.bbcshop.com/History/How-Earth-Made-Us-DVD/invt/bbcdvd3147.

Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 


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[Texascavers] Fire at Carlsbad Cavers National Park

2010-05-25 Thread Robert B

Ok, so a bunch of us are headed to the High Guads to go underground this
weekend and this dern fire may just stop us. I got a call from folks at
Lincoln National Forest Guadalupe Ranger District to say that our caving
permits may be pulled due to fire. Its a wait and see how the fire
progresses and which way the wind blows.

I am actually pleased that I got such a call. It was very considerate of
them. They know we will be travelling a long way and just wanted us to be
aware of the situation and to keep calling for updates.

Goods folks at Guadalupe Ranger District in Carlsbad.

http://www.newswest9.com/Global/story.asp?S=1253

http://www.koat.com/news/23646314/detail.html

Rob

Re: [Texascavers] Fire at Carlsbad Cavers National Park

2010-05-25 Thread Charles Goldsmith

Robert, keep us updated please.

Charles

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Robert B robert.c.b1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ok, so a bunch of us are headed to the High Guads to go underground this
 weekend and this dern fire may just stop us. I got a call from folks at
 Lincoln National Forest Guadalupe Ranger District to say that our caving
 permits may be pulled due to fire. Its a wait and see how the fire
 progresses and which way the wind blows.

 I am actually pleased that I got such a call. It was very considerate of
 them. They know we will be travelling a long way and just wanted us to be
 aware of the situation and to keep calling for updates.

 Goods folks at Guadalupe Ranger District in Carlsbad.

 http://www.newswest9.com/Global/story.asp?S=1253

 http://www.koat.com/news/23646314/detail.html

 Rob

Re: [Texascavers] Fire at Carlsbad Cavers National Park

2010-05-25 Thread Joe Ranzau

http://nmfireinfo.wordpress.com/

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote:

 Robert, keep us updated please.

 Charles


 On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Robert B robert.c.b1...@gmail.comwrote:

 Ok, so a bunch of us are headed to the High Guads to go underground this
 weekend and this dern fire may just stop us. I got a call from folks at
 Lincoln National Forest Guadalupe Ranger District to say that our caving
 permits may be pulled due to fire. Its a wait and see how the fire
 progresses and which way the wind blows.

 I am actually pleased that I got such a call. It was very considerate of
 them. They know we will be travelling a long way and just wanted us to be
 aware of the situation and to keep calling for updates.

 Goods folks at Guadalupe Ranger District in Carlsbad.

 http://www.newswest9.com/Global/story.asp?S=1253

 http://www.koat.com/news/23646314/detail.html

 Rob

[Texascavers] crystals video

2010-05-25 Thread Mixon Bill

There's a much longer video on the Cave of the Crystals at www.naicafilm.com 
. --Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
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texascavers Digest 25 May 2010 19:19:25 -0000 Issue 1057

2010-05-25 Thread texascavers-digest-help


texascavers Digest 25 May 2010 19:19:25 - Issue 1057

Topics (messages 14834 through 14858):

depth of Midnight Cave in Austin
14834 by: Mixon Bill

Austin's Night of the Bat
14835 by: Jim Kennedy
14840 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

interesting website of Sizes, grades, units, scales, calendars, chronologies; 
all things quantifiable quantified
14836 by: Logan McNatt
14837 by: Gill Edigar
14838 by: Logan McNatt
14839 by: Chris Vreeland

WRKW Cave (Krizak Kave)
14841 by: Ron Ralph

old Las Pozas (Xilitla) pics
14842 by: Greg Passmore

Naica on BBC
14843 by: Mark Minton
14847 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: Shortest Caves
14844 by: Mark Minton
14845 by: Stefan Creaser

52 Ways to Die in a Cave
14846 by: Mark Minton
14848 by: Allan B. Cobb
14854 by: Diana Tomchick
14855 by: Bruce Anderson

1st Annual East Texas Caver's Cook-out - Report 1
14849 by: David

Fire at Carlsbad Cavers National Park
14850 by: Robert B
14851 by: Charles Goldsmith
14852 by: Joe Ranzau

crystals video
14853 by: Mixon Bill

dumb list
14856 by: Mixon Bill
14857 by: Geary Schindel
14858 by: Charles Goldsmith

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
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--
---BeginMessage---

Recent mention of laser rangefinders such as Distos reminds me:

The UT Grotto recently had a vertical training night at Midnight Cave.  
I stopped by to see what was going on and mentioned that some time I  
hoped to get there with a tape and see what the depth of the drop  
really is. It is often spoken of as 60 feet or even more. My  
recollection from previous visits was that is was more like 35. Well,  
Jim Kennedy went to get his Disto out of his car and measured it. It  
is 44 to 47 feet, depending on whether you measure from the top of the  
sink or from the ledge where people actually start their rappels. --  
Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org

---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
Cavers,

Check out www.nightofthebat.com, and especially take a look at the
poster (accessed by the link at the bottom of the page).  On June 6,
Austin is hosting a celebration of all things batty, including a live
appearance by Adam West and the 1966 Batmobile.  There will also be a
showing of the 1966 Batman film (the one that launched the popular TV
series of my youth) at the Paramount Theater,  And a whole host of
events will occur on the Congress Avenue Bridge, which will be closed
off from 2 to 10.  Naturally, Bat Conservation International will be
there in full force, having 2 informational and sales tables at each end
of the bridge.  But we need help!  If you are available that afternoon
and evening, we want to give you a free T-shirt just to wander around
the crowd, answer simple questions (if you know the answers), and point
people to the BCI tables.  I will be there at one of them, answering
what questions I can.  We would love to have a really visible presence
in the crowd, and hope to get 100-150 volunteers wearing our shirts.  If
you think you might be interested, send me your name, address, telephone
number(s), and email address, and I will pass that information along to
our development folks here who are organizing the volunteer corps.  They
will then get back to you with details.  Even if you can't help, I hope
you can still stop by this free and fun event.

Jim Crash Kennedy, BCI
---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
Sounds like a cool event, Jim, and wish I could attend.

 

 

But, my son is getting married that weekend and it probably would be
best that I attend.

 

 

As a plus, my future daughter-in-law is a caver, so we pick up another
one in the family!

 

 

For those attending:

 

 

Please, please, take photos and think about writing a report.

 

 

This sounds like a lot of fun and the Batmobile and Adam West gracing
the pages of The TEXAS CAVER would be bat-tastic!

 

 

Holy cornball jokes, Batman!

 

 

I'll retreat to the Bat Cave now.

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 5:22 PM
To: CaveTex
Subject: [Texascavers] Austin's Night of the Bat

 

Cavers,

Check out www.nightofthebat.com http://www.nightofthebat.com , and
especially take a look at the poster (accessed by the link at the bottom
of the page).  On June 6, Austin

[Texascavers] fire in national park

2010-05-25 Thread Mixon Bill

If that fire was started by natural causes in a national park, why is  
it being fought at all? Your million dollars at work -- Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] fire in national park

2010-05-25 Thread Joe Ranzau

Just got off the phone with NPS folks.  They said it was only being fought
to direct it away from the main visitor's center and other important
structures.  Otherwise they are using it for much needed burning.

Now, they may be using man power to confine and guide it.

Joe


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:

 If that fire was started by natural causes in a national park, why is it
 being fought at all? Your million dollars at work -- Mixon
 
 Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
 
 You may reply to the address this message
 came from, but for long-term use, save:
 Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
 AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] Caver's Cook-out - Report 2

2010-05-25 Thread Ron Ralph

The cookout was a great success. Several Houstonians, some from Austin,
Manchaca and Garfield not to mention the Aggie contingent and David's
mother-in-law from Monterrey sat around the campfire all day swilling
beverages and telling caver tales. The meal was truly remarkable for both
flavor and ease of preparation. The pool, bike rides and general ambiance
were notable along with the giant oaks and nature trails. One could not ask
for a better place to view cavers in-action.

 

I cannot wait to set up sales for the Texas Speleological Survey at the next
festival.

 

Ron Ralph, TSS

 

-Original Message-
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:12 PM
Caver's Cook-out - Report 1

 

The Cookout was a success.  snip

[Texascavers] job opening

2010-05-25 Thread Jim Kennedy

TPWD just posted an announcement for the Park Superintendent position at
Devils River SNA.  This remote (VERY remote!) state natural area covers
19,988 acres of karst, including Fawcetts Cave.  Rob Bissett is starting
a once-a-year Project trip out there to document new caves.  To see the
job announcement, go to
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/jobs/postings/?page=10_39_243

-- Crash

[Texascavers] 1st Annual East Texas Caver's Cook-out - Report 1

2010-05-25 Thread David

The Cookout was a success.

Every attendee had a good time at the Cookout.

At least 1 person had the best time of their life, and 2 or 3 others had
a wonderful time.

The grilled squash was the best I have ever tasted.

A wide variety of people attended, including real cavers, and
well known prominent people in the caving community who are
held in great respect.

Peak attendance during the dinner was around 40.

The weather during the dinner was great.

The show put on by the moonglow through the clouds over the camp
Saturday night, was the best I had ever seen on a camping trip.

The wine was good.

The watermelon was cold and juicy.

The deviled eggs were scrumpious.

The kids loved the portable swimming pool.

The family bicycle ride on Sunday on Happy Hollow Rd, turned out
better than expected.

A few people took pictures of the dinner, but not the rest of the event.

The showers in the bath house put out a refreshing blast of water,
much better than
any other campground I have stayed at in the past 45 years.

My mother-in-law enjoyed her stay in the cabin there.

The hand-made guacamole was good.

There was an abundance of lawn chairs set up.  ( 2 picnic tables in the shade
didn't even get used. )

The weather was so good, that we never even used the picnic pavilion.

I would like to thank Colin Nelson of England for going the extra mile
to help make this
event far better than it would have been had he not been there.I
would like to thank
Fritz Holt for purchasing the meat.And to Lyndon Tiu for
purchasing other food items
used in the dinner. I would like to thank my wife who gave me a
ride back to Brenham
to turn in the U-haul truck.  ( I was planning on a 13 mile bike ride,
otherwise ).Nearly
every caver that attended either made a small donation or provided a
food item.So I
nearly broke even on the cost of the food, ( I still have enough
canned food left over for another
huge event. )

Mark your calendars:   2011 thru 2021 May 21, 22  23.
[ a 3 day caver gathering that is
held always the weekend before Memorial Day Weekend at Camp Happy
Hollow, Brenham, TX]

The 2010 event was the beta version for next year, which will probably
be more like an
alpha version for 2012 and beyond.  The problems I had putting
this event together
were too many to list, but many of them can be easily resolved now
that this event
has proven to be a success.

I will post more later in Report 2, but someone else can post
something and call it
Report 2.

David Locklear
host of the Cookout


P.S.

If anyone would like to make a direct donation to Camp Happy Hollow:
( be sure to mention from cavers in your donation )

 Camp Happy Hollow
 Post Office Box 528
 Burton, Texas 77835

If anyone would like to make a direct donation to the camp manager for
( for enduring 5 months of my e-mails ):

 John W. Keienburg
 Post Office Box 528
 Burton, Texas 77835

If anybody would like to help me with some of the expenses that I incurred:

 David Locklear
 10219 Antelope Alley
 Missouri City, Texas  77459

If anybody would like to help me finance the 2011 Cookout:

 David Locklear
 10219 Antelope Alley
 Missouri City, Texas  77459

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Re: [Texascavers] 1st Annual East Texas Caver's Cook-out - Report 1

2010-05-25 Thread Jon

David,
Congratulations on the success of the shindig.
I'm sorry I had to miss it.
I know you put a lot of time and thought into doing this and it sounds like it 
payed off.
You may have gotten yourself into something you can't shake lose of.
 
Jon
 

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:


From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com
Subject: [Texascavers] 1st Annual East Texas Caver's Cook-out - Report 1
To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com, Colin Nelson 
nelson.co...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 1:11 PM


The Cookout was a success.

Every attendee had a good time at the Cookout.

At least 1 person had the best time of their life, and 2 or 3 others had
a wonderful time.

The grilled squash was the best I have ever tasted.

A wide variety of people attended, including real cavers, and
well known prominent people in the caving community who are
held in great respect.

Peak attendance during the dinner was around 40.

The weather during the dinner was great.

The show put on by the moonglow through the clouds over the camp
Saturday night, was the best I had ever seen on a camping trip.

The wine was good.

The watermelon was cold and juicy.

The deviled eggs were scrumpious.

The kids loved the portable swimming pool.

The family bicycle ride on Sunday on Happy Hollow Rd, turned out
better than expected.

A few people took pictures of the dinner, but not the rest of the event.

The showers in the bath house put out a refreshing blast of water,
much better than
any other campground I have stayed at in the past 45 years.

My mother-in-law enjoyed her stay in the cabin there.

The hand-made guacamole was good.

There was an abundance of lawn chairs set up.  ( 2 picnic tables in the shade
didn't even get used. )

The weather was so good, that we never even used the picnic pavilion.

I would like to thank Colin Nelson of England for going the extra mile
to help make this
event far better than it would have been had he not been there.    I
would like to thank
Fritz Holt for purchasing the meat.    And to Lyndon Tiu for
purchasing other food items
used in the dinner.     I would like to thank my wife who gave me a
ride back to Brenham
to turn in the U-haul truck.  ( I was planning on a 13 mile bike ride,
otherwise ).    Nearly
every caver that attended either made a small donation or provided a
food item.    So I
nearly broke even on the cost of the food, ( I still have enough
canned food left over for another
huge event. )

Mark your calendars:   2011 thru 2021     May 21, 22  23.
[ a 3 day caver gathering that is
held always the weekend before Memorial Day Weekend at Camp Happy
Hollow, Brenham, TX]

The 2010 event was the beta version for next year, which will probably
be more like an
alpha version for 2012 and beyond.      The problems I had putting
this event together
were too many to list, but many of them can be easily resolved now
that this event
has proven to be a success.

I will post more later in Report 2, but someone else can post
something and call it
Report 2.

David Locklear
host of the Cookout


P.S.

If anyone would like to make a direct donation to Camp Happy Hollow:
( be sure to mention from cavers in your donation )

     Camp Happy Hollow
     Post Office Box 528
     Burton, Texas 77835

If anyone would like to make a direct donation to the camp manager for
( for enduring 5 months of my e-mails ):

     John W. Keienburg
     Post Office Box 528
     Burton, Texas 77835

If anybody would like to help me with some of the expenses that I incurred:

     David Locklear
     10219 Antelope Alley
     Missouri City, Texas  77459

If anybody would like to help me finance the 2011 Cookout:

     David Locklear
     10219 Antelope Alley
     Missouri City, Texas  77459

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texascavers Digest 25 May 2010 21:13:52 -0000 Issue 1058

2010-05-25 Thread texascavers-digest-help


texascavers Digest 25 May 2010 21:13:52 - Issue 1058

Topics (messages 14859 through 14871):

Re: dumb list
14859 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
14860 by: Geary Schindel
14863 by: Nikki Green
14864 by: Geary Schindel

fire in national park
14861 by: Mixon Bill
14865 by: Joe Ranzau

Re: 52 Ways to Die in a Cave
14862 by: Nico Escamilla
14871 by: ryan monjaras

Re: Shortest Caves
14866 by: Gill Edigar
14867 by: Josh Rubinstein

Caver's Cook-out - Report 2
14868 by: Ron Ralph

job opening
14869 by: Jim Kennedy

Re: 1st Annual East Texas Caver's Cook-out - Report 1
14870 by: Jon

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
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--
---BeginMessage---
I dunno, Bill.  I once caught a bandana in my rack about 1/3 of the way down 
Golondrinas.  Death was so close, I could smell his aftershave.
 
Andy
ps  48-52 are on the second page.

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:


From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list
To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 2:08 PM


That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair caught in 
a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the others. Then of course 
the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
If you respond by cutting your hair out of a rack with a knife, then it is a 
very real possibility of cutting the rope and that gets you back on the list of 
52 ways to die in a cave.

The times when I knife is a solution to a problem in vertical caving is very 
rare.  You can almost always find a technical solution using the tools you have 
on you - most importantly - your experience and your brain.

Geary

From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:19 PM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: Mixon Bill; Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would sting...  a whole pony 
tail worth of hair would be very painful


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel 
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.orgmailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org wrote:
Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.  Getting your hair 
caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the hurts like Hell category.

Geary



-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill 
[mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.commailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon
---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
I was on a TAG trip a couple years ago and my good friend got her  
entire ponytail of hair stuck in her rack while she was rappelling in  
a waterfall. We got her out without injury but if we hadn't of had a  
second rope she could have drowned on rope before we got to her. I  
think it is possible to die from
 getting you hair stuck but only in combination with other extreme  
conditions.


Nikki Green
Sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair  
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the  
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 --  
Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
Folks,

Getting something caught in your rack such as hair, tissue, clothes, etc should 
not be a major emergency.  Escaping from this problem using your safety 
ascender should be well practiced and relatively routine.  Otherwise, a simple 
mistake with an easy solution can result in that cascading effect of mounting 
problems that can result in a less than desirable outcome.

I one time got my hair caught

[Texascavers] East Texas Caver's Cookout photos 1

2010-05-25 Thread David

Here are 5 photos from Sunday after most of the attendees had left.

http://www.showmebendigo.info/webupload/slideshow/58_twkCU

( Disclaimer:   I do not do much photo sharing on the web, and
have never used that web-site before )

Photos taken by Colin Nelson.

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[Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Mark Minton

How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it 
have a minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every 
overhang, tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might 
qualify.  Besides, who would care, other than Gill?  ;-)


Mark Minton

At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:

It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.

On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:


The list of shortest caves would be really long.

Gill Edigar wrote:

Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
World?  How
come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
--Ediger

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:


Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
look at.
It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified
claim, e.g.
under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but
only the
largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and
historic
measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in
a far away
place, or time.

http://www.sizes.com/


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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RE: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Stefan Creaser

I thought to be considered as a cave a hole had to be at least 15ft from
entrance to end?

-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:04 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

 How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it 
have a minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every 
overhang, tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might 
qualify.  Besides, who would care, other than Gill?  ;-)

Mark Minton

At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:
It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.

On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:

The list of shortest caves would be really long.

Gill Edigar wrote:
Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
World?  How
come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
--Ediger

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:

Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
look at.
It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified
claim, e.g.
under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but
only the
largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and
historic
measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in
a far away
place, or time.

http://www.sizes.com/

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

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-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Gill Edigar

Well, they have this book about All Things Quantifiable Quantified. If we
can include the longest caves why not the shortest ones, too. I'm waiting
for somebody to claim they're not quantifiable. Just trying to cover all the
bases here--in the interest of thoroughness.
--Ediger

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Mark Minton mminton@caet wrote:

How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it have a
 minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every overhang,
 tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might qualify.  Besides, who would
 care, other than Gill?  ;-)

 Mark Minton

 At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:

 It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.

 On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:

  The list of shortest caves would be really long.

 Gill Edigar wrote:

 Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
 World?  How
 come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
 --Ediger

 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:

  Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
 look at.
 It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified
 claim, e.g.
 under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but
 only the
 largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and
 historic
 measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in
 a far away
 place, or time.

 http://www.sizes.com/


 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org



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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Josh Rubinstein

One of my favorite short caves is Herblink Cave in Pennsylvania. They
measured the cave by employing one of their team.  I don't remember how tall
Herb was, but it is three and half of him to the back of the cave.

Now, there is a use for the fourth member of a survey team.

Josh

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote:

 Well, they have this book about All Things Quantifiable Quantified. If we
 can include the longest caves why not the shortest ones, too. I'm waiting
 for somebody to claim they're not quantifiable. Just trying to cover all the
 bases here--in the interest of thoroughness.
 --Ediger

 On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Mark Minton mminton@caet wrote:

How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it have a
 minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every overhang,
 tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might qualify.  Besides, who would
 care, other than Gill?  ;-)

 Mark Minton

 At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:

 It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.

 On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:

 The list of shortest caves would be really long.

 Gill Edigar wrote:

 Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
 World?  How
 come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
 --Ediger

 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:

 Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
 look at.
 It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified
 claim, e.g.
 under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but
 only the
 largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and
 historic
 measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in
 a far away
 place, or time.

 http://www.sizes.com/


 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org



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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Mimi Alex

There is a very nice little cave named Mushroom Cave (if my mind doesn't
fail me). Its a quick repel into an upside-down-mushroom shaped hole, which
extends in all directions for a short distance. Although I don't know many
small caves, that's my favorite.

~Mimi

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Josh Rubinstein kars...@gmail.com wrote:

 One of my favorite short caves is Herblink Cave in Pennsylvania. They
 measured the cave by employing one of their team.  I don't remember how tall
 Herb was, but it is three and half of him to the back of the cave.

 Now, there is a use for the fourth member of a survey team.

 Josh

 On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote:

 Well, they have this book about All Things Quantifiable Quantified. If
 we can include the longest caves why not the shortest ones, too. I'm waiting
 for somebody to claim they're not quantifiable. Just trying to cover all the
 bases here--in the interest of thoroughness.
 --Ediger

 On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Mark Minton mminton@caet wrote:

How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it have a
 minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every overhang,
 tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might qualify.  Besides, who would
 care, other than Gill?  ;-)

 Mark Minton

 At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:

 It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.

 On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:

 The list of shortest caves would be really long.

 Gill Edigar wrote:

 Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
 World?  How
 come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
 --Ediger

 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:

 Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
 look at.
 It does not live up to the all things quantifiable quantified
 claim, e.g.
 under Natural World I didn't find Caves.  It does haveBats, but
 only the
 largest and smallest.  Some of the categories include foreign and
 historic
 measures which can come in handy when you find yourself caving in
 a far away
 place, or time.

 http://www.sizes.com/


 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org



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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread wa5pok

How 'bout:
min - sun can't touch you from sunrise to sunset
max - gotta use un-natural light when natural light doesn' work 
anymore.

~F~

  How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it
 have a minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every
 overhang, tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might qualify. 
 Besides, who would care, other than Gill?  ;-)
 
 Mark Minton
 
 At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:
 It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.
 
 On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:
 
 The list of shortest caves would be really long.
 
 Gill Edigar wrote:
 Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
 World?  How come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
 --Ediger
 
 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:
 
 Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
 look at. It does not live up to the all things quantifiable
 quantified claim, e.g. under Natural World I didn't find Caves. 
 It does haveBats, but only the largest and smallest.  Some of the
 categories include foreign and historic measures which can come in
 handy when you find yourself caving in a far away place, or time.
 
 http://www.sizes.com/
 
 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 
 
 
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 Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
 texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands,
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

2010-05-25 Thread Rod Goke

The classical standard is that for a cavity to qualify as a cave, as opposed to 
merely a rock shelter or a pit, a caver must be able to reach some location 
inside the cavity where no sunlight is visible, even when the sun is shining 
brightly outside the cavity.

When searching for the shortest cave by this definition, it may be useful to 
have at least one large diameter caver on the survey team, since this may help 
to qualify certain cavities that are less than one body length long. The caver 
enters the cavity head first. Once he squeezes in far enough for his body to 
plug the entrance, sunlight will no longer be visible from his location, and, 
hence, the cavity will qualify as a cave, even if it is too short to accept the 
caver's entire body. Therefore, the next time you go cave hunting for tiny 
caves, invite an extra large caver, and you might make a discovery worthy of 
Gill's record book.

;-)

Rod


-Original Message-
From: wa5...@peoplepc.com
Sent: May 25, 2010 10:55 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Shortest Caves

How 'bout:
min - sun can't touch you from sunrise to sunset
max - gotta use un-natural light when natural light doesn' work 
anymore.

~F~

  How would you even define what a short cave was?  Would it
 have a minimum length as well as a maximum.  Without a minimum every
 overhang, tinaja, and gopher hole under a rock might qualify. 
 Besides, who would care, other than Gill?  ;-)
 
 Mark Minton
 
 At 07:38 AM 5/25/2010, Chris Vreeland wrote:
 It may, in fact, be the longest list of caves.
 
 On May 24, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:
 
 The list of shortest caves would be really long.
 
 Gill Edigar wrote:
 Well, can't you send them the lists of Deep  Long caves of the
 World?  How come nobody keeps a list of the shortest caves?
 --Ediger
 
 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Logan McNatt
 lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote:
 
 Found an interesting website today that some of you might want to
 look at. It does not live up to the all things quantifiable
 quantified claim, e.g. under Natural World I didn't find Caves. 
 It does haveBats, but only the largest and smallest.  Some of the
 categories include foreign and historic measures which can come in
 handy when you find yourself caving in a far away place, or time.
 
 http://www.sizes.com/
 
 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 
 
 
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 Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
 texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands,
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[Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Mark Minton


Forwarded from another list for your contemplation.

Mark Minton


http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/20/52-ways-to-die-in-a.html

Some upbeat reading for your coffee and donut time.

A couple of weeks ago, I read Blind Descent, a 
book about speleologists exploring the some of 
the deepest caves* on Earth. One of the things 
that struck me about the story was just how 
frequently potentially deadly accidents 
happened. Towards the end, it got to the point 
where somebody was cheating the Reaper every 
other page or so. But, really, that's kind of 
the whole deal with deep cave explorationwhen 
the surface is a multi-day trek away, through 
constricting passages and up sheer cliffs, just 
about any injury can quickly become life-threatening.


In fact, author James Tabor was able to come up 
with a list of 52 different ways deep caving 
could kill youand that's with lumping all 
incapacitating injuries into one entry.


*Deep in this case means depth from top to 
bottom of the cave, not depth below sea level. 
These were journeys into the Earth, but they 
tended to start up a mountain and end at the 
bottom of a river valley, rather than in the 
land of the mole-people. That distinction 
confused me through the first few chapters, and 
left me still wanting to know about caves that 
go deep below the surface of the Earth, as 
opposed to caves that are just deep.


The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Allan B. Cobb


The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave


I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

(I've been close to these.)

There are other ways too.

56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel racks.  (I've 
contemplated that a few times.) 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date: 05/25/10 
06:26:00
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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Diana Tomchick


How about

57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

Diana

On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:


The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave


I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

(I've been close to these.)

There are other ways too.

56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel  
racks.  (I've contemplated that a few times.)


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date:  
05/25/10 06:26:00

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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Bruce Anderson

#58   Getting flat rocked by someone in the group.
- Original Message - 
From: Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu

To: Allan B. Cobb a...@oztotl.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

How about

57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

Diana

On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:

The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave

I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

(I've been close to these.)

There are other ways too.

56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel  
racks.  (I've contemplated that a few times.)

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date:  
05/25/10 06:26:00

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B 
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. 
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu

214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)

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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Nico Escamilla

59. heart attack from carrying too many rocks in your cave pack

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bruce Anderson brewskyj...@rgv.rr.comwrote:

 #58   Getting flat rocked by someone in the group.
 - Original Message - From: Diana Tomchick
 diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
 To: Allan B. Cobb a...@oztotl.com
 Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
 Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

 How about

 57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

 Diana

 On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:

  The 52 Ways list is here:

 http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave

 I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

 53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
 54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
 55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

 (I've been close to these.)

 There are other ways too.

 56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel  racks.
  (I've contemplated that a few times.)

 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date:  05/25/10
 06:26:00
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 Diana R. Tomchick
 Associate Professor
 University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
 Department of Biochemistry
 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
 Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email:
 diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
 214-645-6383 (phone)
 214-645-6353 (fax)

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RE: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread ryan monjaras


60. touching a live wire for lights (thankfully it was low voltage and i only 
got shocked)

Semper Exploro Ryan MonjarasMaverick GrottoCowtown GrottoDFW 
Grotto(832)754-5778



From: pitboun...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:31:40 -0500
To: brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com
CC: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu; a...@oztotl.com; 
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

59. heart attack from carrying too many rocks in your cave pack


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bruce Anderson brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com wrote:

#58   Getting flat rocked by someone in the group.
- Original Message - From: Diana Tomchick 
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu


To: Allan B. Cobb a...@oztotl.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:59 PM


Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave 






How about

57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

Diana



On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:



The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave



I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts



(I've been close to these.)

There are other ways too.

56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel  racks.  (I've 
contemplated that a few times.)

No virus found in this outgoing message.


Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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06:26:00
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Diana R. Tomchick


Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: 
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)


214-645-6353 (fax)


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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Diana Tomchick


61. Rock paranoia, will destroy ya...

Diana

On May 25, 2010, at 4:13 PM, ryan monjaras wrote:

60. touching a live wire for lights (thankfully it was low voltage  
and i only got shocked)


Semper Exploro
Ryan Monjaras
Maverick Grotto
Cowtown Grotto
DFW Grotto
(832)754-5778




From: pitboun...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:31:40 -0500
To: brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com
CC: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu; a...@oztotl.com; 
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

59. heart attack from carrying too many rocks in your cave pack

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bruce Anderson brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com 
 wrote:

#58   Getting flat rocked by someone in the group.
- Original Message - From: Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 


To: Allan B. Cobb a...@oztotl.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave



How about

57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

Diana

On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:

The 52 Ways list is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave

I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

(I've been close to these.)

There are other ways too.

56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel   
racks.  (I've contemplated that a few times.)


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date:   
05/25/10 06:26:00

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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: 
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

2010-05-25 Thread Terri Sprouse

Thanks, but no thanks, guys. 

- Original Message 
From: Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
To: Cave Tex texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 4:38:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

61. Rock paranoia, will destroy ya...

Diana

On May 25, 2010, at 4:13 PM, ryan monjaras wrote:

 60. touching a live wire for lights (thankfully it was low voltage  
 and i only got shocked)

 Semper Exploro
 Ryan Monjaras
 Maverick Grotto
 Cowtown Grotto
 DFW Grotto
 (832)754-5778

 From: pitboun...@gmail.com
 Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:31:40 -0500
 To: brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com
 CC: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu; a...@oztotl.com; 
 texascavers@texascavers.com
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

 59. heart attack from carrying too many rocks in your cave pack

 On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bruce Anderson brewskyj...@rgv.rr.com 
  wrote:
 #58   Getting flat rocked by someone in the group.
 - Original Message - From: Diana Tomchick 
 diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 

 To: Allan B. Cobb a...@oztotl.com
 Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
 Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 52 Ways to Die in a Cave

 How about

 57. Getting Puppied at the shaft entrance of Honey Creek.

 Diana

 On May 25, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Allan B. Cobb wrote:

 The 52 Ways list is here:

 http://www.scribd.com/doc/31358060/52-Ways-to-Die-in-a-Cave

 I can think of many more ways.  Caving here in Belize I can add:

 53.  Getting eaten by a jaguar
 54. Being ripped apart by a gibnut (or tepescuintle) in a crawlway
 55. Interupting looters while they are looting Maya artifacts

 (I've been close to these.)

 There are other ways too.

 56. Being blugeoned to death by your fellow cavers with rappel  
 racks.  (I've contemplated that a few times.)

 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2895 - Release Date:  
 05/25/10 06:26:00
 -
 Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
 For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 Diana R. Tomchick
 Associate Professor
 University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
 Department of Biochemistry
 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
 Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: 
 diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
 214-645-6383 (phone)
 214-645-6353 (fax)

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Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)

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[Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Mixon Bill

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair  
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the  
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Geary Schindel

Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.  Getting your hair 
caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the hurts like Hell category.

Geary



-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair  
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the  
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Charles Goldsmith

Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would sting...  a whole
pony tail worth of hair would be very painful



On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel 
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org wrote:

 Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.  Getting your hair
 caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the hurts like Hell
 category.

 Geary



 -Original Message-
 From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
 To: Cavers Texas
 Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

 That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair
 caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the
 others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Andy Gluesenkamp

I dunno, Bill.  I once caught a bandana in my rack about 1/3 of the way down 
Golondrinas.  Death was so close, I could smell his aftershave.
 
Andy
ps  48-52 are on the second page.

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:


From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list
To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 2:08 PM


That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair caught in 
a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the others. Then of course 
the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Geary Schindel

If you respond by cutting your hair out of a rack with a knife, then it is a 
very real possibility of cutting the rope and that gets you back on the list of 
52 ways to die in a cave.

The times when I knife is a solution to a problem in vertical caving is very 
rare.  You can almost always find a technical solution using the tools you have 
on you - most importantly - your experience and your brain.

Geary

From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:19 PM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: Mixon Bill; Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would sting...  a whole pony 
tail worth of hair would be very painful


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel 
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.orgmailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org wrote:
Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.  Getting your hair 
caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the hurts like Hell category.

Geary



-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill 
[mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.commailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Nikki Green

I was on a TAG trip a couple years ago and my good friend got her  
entire ponytail of hair stuck in her rack while she was rappelling in  
a waterfall. We got her out without injury but if we hadn't of had a  
second rope she could have drowned on rope before we got to her. I  
think it is possible to die from
 getting you hair stuck but only in combination with other extreme  
conditions.


Nikki Green
Sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair  
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the  
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 --  
Mixon


Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Geary Schindel

Folks,

Getting something caught in your rack such as hair, tissue, clothes, etc should 
not be a major emergency.  Escaping from this problem using your safety 
ascender should be well practiced and relatively routine.  Otherwise, a simple 
mistake with an easy solution can result in that cascading effect of mounting 
problems that can result in a less than desirable outcome.

I one time got my hair caught in my rack in Fantastic Pit in Ellisons, Georgia 
(no, it is not the reason I'm bald in front).  I was about 400 feet off the 
floor and the last one down.  It was not a big deal.  I used my safety ascender 
and clipped in to the rope, pulled some slack through may rack.  Pulled out the 
hair, changed back over to rappel using a girth hitch on the rope, and headed 
back on rappel.  What if I had pulled out a knife and accidently cut the rope. 
I and the rope would have fallen 400 feet and would probably have broken an 
ankle or something.  In addition, we would have had to wait a couple of days to 
be rescued.  That would have been even more embarrassing  LOL.  Andy is right, 
having an ascending system ready to go is a good practice.

Geary

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:23 PM
To: Cavers Texas; Mixon Bill
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

I dunno, Bill.  I once caught a bandana in my rack about 1/3 of the way down 
Golondrinas.  Death was so close, I could smell his aftershave.

Andy
ps  48-52 are on the second page.

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:

From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list
To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 2:08 PM
That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair caught in 
a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the others. Then of course 
the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Rod Goke

Unfortunately, this kind of rope cutting is more than just a hypothetical possibility. A very serious accident of this type actually happen to a caver in the Colorado Grotto during the time that I was a member there before moving to Austin. He was rappelling down a cliff during a ropework practice and training session with a group of cavers, when his rain poncho got caught in his rack. He attempted to cut the poncho free with a knife, accidently cut his rope instead, and took a long fall onto the rocks below. The accident was not fatal, but it easily could have been if he had landed differently or if the falling distance had been a little longer. He did receive multiple fractures in the leg and hip and, even after many months of recovery, had to use a cane when walking.Like most of the serious accidents involving cavers I have known, this one did not happen to some novice caver who didn't know what he was doing. Instead, it happened to a very experienced caver who fully understood what he was doing. In fact this caver had been involved many times with teaching vertical techniques to new cavers, including the standard warnings about not using knives or other sharp objects near the climbing rope. Some people even recalled one or more earlier training sessions when this caver had done rope cutting demonstrations to show new cavers how easily a rope could be cut when it was under tension. He clearly understood the potential risk, but apparently was overly confident about his ability to cut only what he intended to cut while doing what he and other experienced cavers routinely warned new cavers not to do.In retrospect, it was easy to see multiple ways that this accident could have been avoided. If he had used an extra ascender or rappel safety device above his rack to temporarily relieve rope tension in the rack, then he probably could have removed the poncho from the rack with no cutting. If he did not have the equipment with him to do this, then other cavers nearby could have lowered extra equipment to him on another rope. If no equipment of this type had been available, they could have lowered a second rope to him, so that he could have attached the second rope to his harness like a belay to relieve tension on the rack. In fact, there was already a second climbing rope rigged near the one this caver was using, so, if necessary, another caver could have gone to his aid on the second rope. Of course, a poncho is not the best type of clothing to wear while rappelling, either, even if it is raining.The primary lesson from this incident is not so much that cavers need the equipment and knowhow to do things safely (which, of course, they do), but rather that they need to be diligent about actually using the safety equipment and knowledge they have instead of letting overconfidence tempt them into risky shortcuts.Rod-Original Message-
From: Geary Schindel 
Sent: May 25, 2010 2:23 PM
To: Charles Goldsmith 
Cc: Mixon Bill , Cavers Texas 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

If you respond by cutting your hair out of a rack with a knife,
then it is a very real possibility of cutting the rope and that gets you back
on the list of 52 ways to die in a cave.

The times when I knife is a solution to a problem in vertical
caving is very rare. You can almost always find a technical solution using the
tools you have on you – most importantly – your experience and your brain.

Geary

From: Charles Goldsmith
[mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:19 PM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: Mixon Bill; Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list

Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would
sting... a whole pony tail worth of hair would be very painful

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
wrote:

Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.
Getting your hair caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the
"hurts like Hell" category.

Geary

-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon

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RE: [Texascavers] dumb list

2010-05-25 Thread Geary Schindel

Rod,
 
Well said and a very nice post.  There is a lot to learn from case
histories.
 
Geary
 
-Original Message-
From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:53 PM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] dumb list
 
Unfortunately, this kind of rope cutting is more than just a
hypothetical possibility. A very serious accident of this type actually
happen to a caver in the Colorado Grotto during the time that I was a
member there before moving to Austin. He was rappelling down a cliff
during a ropework practice and training session with a group of cavers,
when his rain poncho got caught in his rack. He attempted to cut the
poncho free with a knife, accidently cut his rope instead, and took a
long fall onto the rocks below. The accident was not fatal, but it
easily could have been if he had landed differently or if the falling
distance had been a little longer. He did receive multiple fractures in
the leg and hip and, even after many months of recovery, had to use a
cane when walking.
 
Like most of the serious accidents involving cavers I have known, this
one did not happen to some novice caver who didn't know what he was
doing. Instead, it happened to a very experienced caver who fully
understood what he was doing. In fact this caver had been involved many
times with teaching vertical techniques to new cavers, including the
standard warnings about not using knives or other sharp objects near the
climbing rope. Some people even recalled one or more earlier training
sessions when this caver had done rope cutting demonstrations to show
new cavers how easily a rope could be cut when it was under tension. He
clearly understood the potential risk, but apparently was overly
confident about his ability to cut only what he intended to cut while
doing what he and other experienced cavers routinely warned new cavers
not to do.
 
In retrospect, it was easy to see multiple ways that this accident could
have been avoided. If he had used an extra ascender or rappel safety
device above his rack to temporarily relieve rope tension in the rack,
then he probably could have removed the poncho from the rack with no
cutting. If he did not have the equipment with him to do this, then
other cavers nearby could have lowered extra equipment to him on another
rope. If no equipment of this type had been available, they could have
lowered a second rope to him, so that he could have attached the second
rope to his harness like a belay to relieve tension on the rack. In
fact, there was already a second climbing rope rigged near the one this
caver was using, so, if necessary, another caver could have gone to his
aid on the second rope. Of course, a poncho is not the best type of
clothing to wear while rappelling, either, even if it is raining.
 
The primary lesson from this incident is not so much that cavers need
the equipment and knowhow to do things safely (which, of course, they
do), but rather that they need to be diligent about actually using the
safety equipment and knowledge they have instead of letting
overconfidence tempt them into risky shortcuts.
 
Rod
 
-Original Message- 
From: Geary Schindel 
Sent: May 25, 2010 2:23 PM 
To: Charles Goldsmith 
Cc: Mixon Bill , Cavers Texas 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] dumb list 



If you respond by cutting your hair out of a rack with a knife, then it
is a very real possibility of cutting the rope and that gets you back on
the list of 52 ways to die in a cave.
 
The times when I knife is a solution to a problem in vertical caving is
very rare.  You can almost always find a technical solution using the
tools you have on you - most importantly - your experience and your
brain.
 
Geary
 
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:19 PM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: Mixon Bill; Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list
 
Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would sting...  a
whole pony tail worth of hair would be very painful
 
 
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org wrote:
Remember, what doesn't kill you usually hurts like Hell.  Getting your
hair caught in a rack usually ranks right up there in the hurts like
Hell category.

Geary



-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:08 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] dumb list

That's a pretty silly list of 52 ways to die in a cave. Getting hair
caught in a rack isn't likely to be fatal. Ditto for a lot of the
others. Then of course the list actually only goes up to 47 -- Mixon
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[Texascavers] WRKW Cave (Krizak Kave)

2010-05-25 Thread Ron Ralph

Cavers,

 

I would like to thank all who came caving yesterday to welcome William back
underground. In attendance were:

Ron Ralph

William Russell

Julie Jenkins

John Tirums

David McKenzie

Louis Krizak, landowner

 

We were able to clean the surface of prickly pear, algerita and Texas
persimmon (mostly) and excavate about a meter into black clay, roots and
rock fragments. A quick survey showed potential for other features and
possibly caves. A good time was postponed due to heat and old backs.

 

You will be notified via this address of impending returns to Krizak Kave,
now to be known as WRKW Cave named after the grandson, Igor.

 

Ron Ralph, Coordinator

280-9648 or 797-3817

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