Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Fw: Scary Border Stuff...Why Haven't We Heard?

[Rod Goke]

The question of fault:Is it the United States' fault for banning drugs and creating a lucrative demand for criminals to smuggle drugs northwards, or is it Mexico's fault for banning guns and creating a lucrative demand for criminals to smuggle guns southward?That issue ranks right up there with life's other great questions, like "Which blade of the scissors is responsible for the cutting?"A serious question about gun sources for Mexican criminals:Some people, especially some in the Mexican government, have complained that Mexican criminals are obtaining guns by smuggling them from the U.S. into Mexico, and there is evidence indicating that this is true to some degree. There also have been many news reports indicating that organized criminal gangs in Mexico have been able to bribe, intimidate, or otherwise induce significant numbers of Mexican police and military personnel to work for the criminals. This, of course, does not imply that all, or even most, of the Mexican police or military personnel are corrupt, but the reports do seem to indicate that the gangs have been able to buy enough influence of this type to be a major and growing problem in portions of Mexico. In this case, I wonder how many of the military and police style weapons flowing to Mexican criminals are coming from corrupt sources in the Mexican police and military and, hence, would continue to be available to criminals there even if all gun smuggling from the United States were eliminated. Not surprisingly, the Mexican government doesn't say much, if anything, about this aspect of the problem, but for anyone seriously interested in how criminals are getting guns in Mexico, it is important to understand how many guns are coming through each channel instead of just pointing fingers across the border at convenient scapegoats.Rod


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[ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Fw: Scary Border Stuff...Why Haven't We Heard?

[Nico Escamilla]

Im taking this thread to the OT list

Rod,

Certainly, it is well know that these bad people have bought many a local
police department  as well as state and hav'em working for them (I know that
for a fact) however your point is not really valid here... with the
exception of the Army, 50 cal Barrets, AKs RPGs and so on are not issued to
law enforcement, so saying that this weapons might come from Mexican
authorities makes no sense.

Guns arent banned here, you just cant walk around carrying one.

Nico

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net wrote:

  The question of fault:

 Is it the United States' fault for banning drugs and creating a lucrative
 demand for criminals to smuggle drugs northwards, or is it Mexico's fault
 for banning guns and creating a lucrative demand for criminals to smuggle
 guns southward? That issue ranks right up there with life's other great
 questions, like Which blade of the scissors is responsible for the
 cutting?


 A serious question about gun sources for Mexican criminals:

 Some people, especially some in the Mexican government, have complained
 that Mexican criminals are obtaining guns by smuggling them from the U.S.
 into Mexico, and there is evidence indicating that this is true to some
 degree. There also have been many news reports indicating that organized
 criminal gangs in Mexico have been able to bribe, intimidate, or otherwise
 induce significant numbers of Mexican police and military personnel to work
 for the criminals. This, of course, does not imply that all, or even most,
 of the Mexican police or military personnel are corrupt, but the reports do
 seem to indicate that the gangs have been able to buy enough influence of
 this type to be a major and growing problem in portions of Mexico. In this
 case, I wonder how many of the military and police style weapons flowing to
 Mexican criminals are coming from corrupt sources in the Mexican police and
 military and, hence, would continue to be available to criminals there even
 if all gun smuggling from the United States were eliminated. Not
 surprisingly, the Mexican government doesn't say much, if anything, about
 this aspect of the problem, but for anyone seriously interested in how
 criminals are getting guns in Mexico, it is important to understand how many
 guns are coming through each channel instead of just pointing fingers across
 the border at convenient scapegoats.

 Rod



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Re: [ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Fw: Scary Border Stuff...Why Haven't We Heard?

[Scott Nicholson]

Guns are not, and never have been, the problem.  The problem, in my humble 
opinion, are the drug laws in the USA which create the lucrative black market, 
and also the war on drugs (a 100% failure in every regard) which has cost about 
a Trillion Dollars so far...

A very reasonable analogy is the Prohibition experiment years ago. When alcohol 
was illegal there was a strong incentive for the mob to becocme 
involvedviolence and profiteering ensued.  When Prohbition was repealed, 
the violence and profiteering associated with the illegal alcohol black market 
subsided almost immediately.

Just my two cents 
 Scott Nicholson, Broker
512-947-2688
Marketplace Real Estate
www.DiscoveryAustin.com






From: Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com
To: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org
Cc: Off Topic o...@texascavers.com
Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 12:20:41 PM
Subject: [ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Fw: Scary Border Stuff...Why 
Haven't We Heard?


Im taking this thread to the OT list

Rod,

Certainly, it is well know that these bad people have bought many a local 
police department  as well as state and hav'em working for them (I know that 
for a fact) however your point is not really valid here... with the exception 
of the Army, 50 cal Barrets, AKs RPGs and so on are not issued to law 
enforcement, so saying that this weapons might come from Mexican authorities 
makes no sense.

Guns arent banned here, you just cant walk around carrying one.

Nico


On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net wrote:

The question of fault:

Is it the United States' fault for banning drugs and creating a lucrative 
demand for criminals to smuggle drugs northwards, or is it Mexico's fault for 
banning guns and creating a lucrative demand for criminals to smuggle guns 
southward? That issue ranks right up there with life's other great questions, 
like Which blade of the scissors is responsible for the cutting? 




A serious question about gun sources for Mexican criminals:


Some people, especially some in the Mexican government, have complained that 
Mexican criminals are obtaining guns by smuggling them from the U.S. into 
Mexico, and there is evidence indicating that this is true to some degree. 
There also have been many news reports indicating that organized criminal 
gangs in Mexico have been able to bribe, intimidate, or otherwise induce 
significant numbers of Mexican police and military personnel to work for the 
criminals. This, of course, does not imply that all, or even most, of the 
Mexican police or military personnel are corrupt, but the reports do seem to 
indicate that the gangs have been able to buy enough influence of this type to 
be a major and growing problem in portions of Mexico. In this case, I wonder 
how many of the military and police style weapons flowing to Mexican criminals 
are coming from corrupt sources in the Mexican police and military and, hence, 
would continue to be available to criminals there
 even if all gun smuggling from the United States were eliminated. Not 
surprisingly, the Mexican government doesn't say much, if anything, about this 
aspect of the problem, but for anyone seriously interested in how criminals are 
getting guns in Mexico, it is important to understand how many guns are coming 
through each channel instead of just pointing fingers across the border at 
convenient scapegoats.


Rod





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[Texascavers] Fwd: FW: Passing of a caver

[bcow911]

---BeginMessage---

Bob,

Did this go out on cavetex?
 
 From: fhutch...@satx.rr.com
 To: franhutch...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Fw: Passing of a caver
 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 23:02:17 -0500
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: bcow...@satx.rr.com
 To: trent.a.da...@gmail.com; christine.colli...@tpwd.state.tx.us; 
 gv...@nckri.org; tr...@sprynet.com; gschin...@mindspring.com; 
 joemitch...@satx.rr.com; ibaca...@hotmail.com; fhutch...@satx.rr.com; 
 stre...@swri.org; renee.skw...@gmail.com; calcoteelect...@yahoo.com; 
 ics09...@yahoo.com; tomflo...@yahoo.com; donarb...@mac.com; 
 jbpdel...@aol.com; dhogena...@msn.com; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org; 
 jran...@gmail.com; stephengutti...@juno.com; fher...@swri.edu; 
 rlcorb...@hotmail.com; km...@mac.com; an...@kinzy.com; 
 kitt...@hotmail.com; lisaacantr...@gmail.com; bcow...@satx.rr.com; 
 ba...@alumni.utexas.net; ventureman...@juno.com; c...@boernenet.com; 
 c.benn...@chfbc.org; tris...@aol.com; geo...@nincehelser.com; 
 dsauche...@juno.com; loverh...@satx.rr.com; ffehrib...@sprintmail.com; 
 lkpa...@sbcglobal.net; cnv...@sbcglobal.net; amontema...@swri.edu; 
 dmk...@gmail.com; jill...@swbell.net; niki.l...@tpwd.state.tx.us; 
 mlmil...@gvtc.com; thecave...@yahoo.com; gi...@bcad.org; 
 caper...@swbell.net; kars...@gmail.com; 'Pete Strickland' 
 pstrickla...@austin.rr.com; DAVID K BAMBERGER dk.bamber...@gmail.com
 Cc: an...@kinzy.com; renee.skw...@gmail.com; kars...@gmail.com; 
 DON/EDITH BERGQUIST doned...@sbcglobal.net; DONNA BALIN 
 ba...@alumni.utexas.net; Emily McGowan em...@sbcglobal.net; J DAVID 
 BAMBERGER se...@tstar.net; Joel King km...@mac.com; MELISSA WATKINS 
 melissa1...@satx.rr.com; rebeccaajo...@earthlink.net; STEEL BILL 
 okste...@aol.com; TERRY HOLSINGER tr...@sprynet.com; TRISH WILSON 
 tris...@aol.com; VENI GEORGE gv...@warpdriveonline.com
 Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:49 PM
 Subject: Passing of a caver
 
 
  It takes great pains to inform you of the passing of Rebecca Hutchins. 
  Rebecca lost her battle to cancer and die early this morning. She wished 
  to be creamated. Arrangement have not been finalized as yet.Request 
  donations be made to TCMA in lieu of Flowers.I loved being around her and 
  I'll miss her greatly. I'll get back to you with more info as things 
  progress bob
  
 
  
_
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4---End Message---
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[Texascavers] Causes of the both the 2007 2010 Guatemalan sinkholes :

[JerryAtkin]

As many of you that are interested have probably read, there is a lot of  
geo-babble going on as to what is the cause of the recent sinkhole in 
Guatemala.  I've actually read accounts from geologists speculating that it's 
karst 
related  due to the presence of limestone underlying the city (which is 
totally false).  The most reputable explanation that I've seen is the 
following, from a fellow  that helped in the investigation of the 2007 sinkhole 
that 
occurred in Guatemala  City.  The 2007 sinkhole was very similar in form and 
proximity to the 2010  sinkhole and they most likely share a common cause.  
I've also attached a  2007 news report that addresses the cause of the 2007 
sinkhole and references  Haddox's input into the site investigation.
 
 
Eric Haddox says:
_June 5, 2010 at 1:38 am_ 
(http://cnmnewsnetwork.com/117945/guatemala-sinkhole-2010-guatemala-city-pictures-photos-video/comment-page-1/#comment-26846)
 
I was an advisor for the 2007 sinkhole and we had determined that the  
sinkhole was caused by large storm drainage pipes that were far below the  
surface in poorly compacted fill. Possibly seismic activity sheared the  
connection of these collector pipes with a large junction box. This saturation/ 
 
erosion of the soil slowly ate away at the soil and eventually, after a large  
rain the top portion of the ground finally sheared and fell into the already 
 existing cavern. There were already talks that this would happen again but 
what  could really be done about these very old pipes so far under the 
ground and how  can you find a sinkhole developing on the outside of a cracked 
pipe or further  determine the extent of the possible sinkhole. This was 
further complicated by  the nature of Guatemalan government and lack of 
resources to investigate these  kinds of issues. If you look, this hole from 
2010 
looks very similar to the hole  in 2007 and if you look at the location of the 
center of the new sinkhole you  can notice that it is in the middle of the 
road where a manhole would naturally  be. I am not involved in the 
investigation of the 2010 hole but I was living in  Guatemala and present for 
the 
investigation of the 2007 hole. 
Broken stormwater drain led  to Guatemala sinkhole
 
From Wikinews, the free news source you can  write!
Tuesday, March 6, 2007
 
 
(http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/File:Guatemala_city_sinkhole_2007_composite_view.jpg)
  
 
 
(http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/File:Guatemala_city_sinkhole_2007_composite_view.jpg)
 
Composite  image of the sinkhole, as on March 6, 2007.
Source:Eric  Haddox


A rupture in the underground stormwater drain system opened a huge sinkhole 
 on February 23, killing three people and bringing down twelve houses in  
Guatemala City. 
Teenagers Irma and David Soyos and their father, 53-year old Domingo Soyos  
were killed when their house collapsed into the sinkhole. Nearly a thousand 
 people were evacuated from the San Antonio neighborhood after the 
collapse. 
Wikinews interviewed Eric Haddox, a civil engineer who has visited the site 
 of the sinkhole and spoken to the engineers working on fixing the drain. 
Mr.  Haddox, who specialises in the building of earthworks, roads, water 
supply and  sewage systems, and is working as a missionary in Guatemala, 
visited 
the site  following the collapse to help in the recovery effort. 
Mr. Haddox told us that the size of the hole is much smaller than the 330  
feet depth originally reported and that the erosion causing the collapse is  
believed to have happened over a long time, and not just during the recent 
rains  as initially suspected. 
There are also concerns that a four-story building less  than a metre from 
the edge of the hole may collapse as the earth under the  building continues 
to be eroded.
Trouble brewing over  years
Before the collapse, a junction box linked two collector pipes to a 3.5m 
main  pipe leading to a nearby canyon in a system believed to be 20 to 50 
years old.  The surrounding earth had been filled in artificially to level the 
ground, but  the fill was not well compacted before being built upon. Such 
leveling of the  ground is widespread in Guatemala city. 
It is thought that, at some point in the last 20 years, either one of the  
collector pipes ruptured or was detached from the junction box, possibly 
because  of seismic activity. Water gushing out of the break following 
rainstorms  gradually eroded the loosely compacted soil, creating an expanding 
cavern around  the junction box. On February 23, the roof of this cavern 
collapsed, creating  the sinkhole, 20m wide at the top and tapering out towards 
the 
bottom, which is  about 60m (204 feet) deep, not 330 feet as originally 
reported. 
Things like this don't happen often and there are many interesting  
engineering lessons to be learned with them, Mr. Haddox said. 
The sinkhole has continued to expand even after the collapse, since the  
collector pipes continue to carry water, which cascades 15m 

[Texascavers] Help request: Move the brush pile

[William H. Russell]

OK, Folks,
our neighborhood is having its large brush collection on 28 June. 
Katie and William are drowning in large brush -- in better years, 
William would have cut, compacted, and composted it, but that just 
didn't happen this year.  Right now there's the better part of a 
loosely packed small dumpster out on the west 40 (AKA backyard).


Would anyone be interested in helping us cut, haul, and stack on 
Saturday, 26th, starting in the AM?  It's lugustrum, chinaberry, and 
pecan windfall.  Most of the damage would be cutting things no more 
than 8 in diameter to the legal size of 6 feet, but we also have 
stuff that would appeal to chain saw enthusiasts  (a 20-foot downed 
chinaberry, very very dry, and a couple of large limbs to be lopped 
off of trees in places where they are likely to fall on people), if 
you bring your own chainsaw.


Contact me and katie (k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu) off-list if you'd like 
to devote a couple or four hours to the cause.We can provide 
beverages, but only one pruning hook and saw, so bring handtools if 
you have them.


thanks,
william
--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336

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[Texascavers] update Passing of a Caver

[bcow911]

A lot of folks are asking for more info on Rebecca-O'Daniel-Hutchins. I 
included her previous last name as some folks don't recognize her as 
Hutchins. Fran will meet with the minister again on monday and will 
finalize everything. He is pushing for a service on June 19th a Saturday, 
hopefully around 10:30 am with a snack time following the service in the 
FellowShip hall. The service will only be the service with no speaches just the 
service. Those wishing to express there feelings can do so at the wake 
following the service .Services will be held at the Alamo Heights Presp. Church 
on Broadway. I'll try my best to keep everyone informed. It was requested by 
Rebecca prior to her passing that any money for flowers should be donated to 
TCMA.

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[Texascavers] WTB - Caving Gear Before China

[Floyd Hebert]

I am leaving for China within the next 6-7 months, and would like
purchase all new gear before I move. Gear is very hard to purchase in
China, so I would like to have everything I need before I go. I may be
there for a good number of years, so I would like to get good quality
gear that lasts. I am not very qualified at the moment, so information
and opinions about basic, vertical, and other potentially necessary
gear is highly appreciated. Maybe someone could provide a list of
needed gear essential and luxury and then people could offer their
opinions. Other possibly unknown variable or barriers associated with
caving in China are also very much appreciated.

Thanks
Floyd

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[Texascavers] June meeting

[J. LaRue Thomas]

Greetings, all cavers and caver wannabes,

The June meeting of the Permian Basin will be held this Tuesday, June 8th, 
at 7:00 pm at Murray's Delicatessen which is located at 3211 West Wadley in 
Midland. Once again we will be in the back room.


Topics of discussion: Bill's Excellent Adventure June 12th. Also some 
discussion on the possibility of a NM NSS Convention and what PBSS wants to 
do about it. And anything else.


I will be at Camp Sol Mayer training my climbing staff. Should be fun.

So this month for further information do not contact Jacqui Thomas.

You may contact Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net  or Walter Feaster 
wdfeas...@sudddenlink.net .


PBSS web page:
http://www.caver.net/pbss/pbss.html

The Permian Basin Speleological Society was founded in October 1983 and was 
chartered as the 300th grotto of the National Speleological Society on 
January 18, 1984. The Permian Basin Speleological Society is an affiliated 
Grotto or Caving club with the Texas Speleological Association and the 
Southwestern Region of the National Speleological Society and supports the 
cave conservation ethics of the National Speleological Society.


National Speleological Society web page:
http://www.caves.org/

Texas Speleological Association web page:
http://www.cavetexas.org

Southwestern Region of the NSS web page:
http://www.caves.org/region/swr/ 



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