Re: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Nico Escamilla]

Chapter 16 of the book Huautla comes to mind..pretty good read!

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Mark Minton  wrote:

>
>I can't think of anyone dying in a cave because of burns, but
> injuries have occurred both from exploding spent carbide containers, and
> from exploding camp stoves or spilled fuel being ignited in underground
> camps.
>
> Mark Minton
>
>
>

[Texascavers] More great alcohol-related stories

[Carl Kunath]

Ediger's great story about Cantile's adventures with the Kaluha reminded me of 
a classic moment in Carta Valley caving history.

It was the custom in the early 1970s that following a day caving in the Carta 
Valley area, we would reconvene at the TRIANGLE (holy emphasis) to wash off the 
grime and get organized for a trip to Acuña where we would often eat at Ma 
Crosby's and purchase a few bottles of inexpensive Mexican liquor.

On this particular occasion, not all went to Mexico and I placed my order for 
liquor with some willing shopper.  It was simple.  I wanted a liter of Brandy 
and Benedictine.  Hours passed and my bottle appeared but it was Benedictine; 
not Brandy and Benedictine.  Believe me.  There is a difference!

Oh, well.  Close enough, I first thought.  I took a swig and nearly gagged.  It 
was awful.  Other brave souls gave it a try and the verdict was unanimous.  Not 
fit even for a Carta Valley caver campfire.

But then, the bottle reached the lips of Russell Parker.  Russell took a shot 
and smacked his lips.  He actually claimed to like it!  

(Coming now to the core of the legend. . . .)

The nearly full bottle was happily bequeathed to Russell and as the night wore 
on he worked his way toward the bottom of that bottle while others sampled more 
palatable beverages.

OK.  Time passed.  The camp fire became embers, one by one the Suckers drifted 
away to sleep, and silence descended upon the camp ground.  In those days, the 
various cavers circled their vans and pickup campers with asses toward a 
central campfire. As dawn was arriving, I heard the creak of a door slowly 
opening and I looked out across the campfire embers to see Russell Parker 
slowly stick his head out the back of a vehicle.  With unintentional but 
forceful accuracy he regurgitated at least a liter of partially digested 
Benedictine directly into the open top of a boot unfortunately placed on the 
back bumper of the truck.  Then, equally slowly, he withdrew and closed the 
door.  Silence returned.  It was as if nothing had happened.  Except for this 
boot now sloshing full with something words cannot adequately describe.

Thus, the enduring legend of R. "Benedictine" Parker was added to the lore of 
caving, Carta Valley style.

Others with better memories may now inform us as to who had to burn their boots.

===C. Edwin Kunath




  - Original Message - 
  From: Gill Edigar 
  To: Cavers Texas 
  Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 8:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave


  On our first several A&I (pre-)Grotto trips to Bustamante in the spring of 
'67 we camped in the cave--carried all our gear and food for the weekend up the 
treacherous trail--in the dark--and slept and ate there. Don't ask me why. I 
thought it was tradition. Saturday (morning, I think) we were sitting around in 
the Entrance Room cooking and getting ready to go caving. Several Svea (white 
gasoline) stoves were roaring away. Lee Cantile was refueling his prior to 
firing it up. He was a bit clumsy and poured a good bit more gas on the packed 
mud cave floor than into the stove. Finally filling it he sat the fuel bottle 
down without replacing the cap and proceeded to replace the cap on his stove 
and begin the rather long, complicated, and tedious process needed to preheat 
the fuel and fire up those silly stoves. In the midst of this a great poof was 
heard and a fireball about 8 feet in diameter rose up from his cooking area 
(and I recall a fearful scream, but may have imagined it) then a ground fire of 
about an equal area about one foot high continued to burn off the gas spilt on 
the ground. The fuel bottle spit a flare a couple of feet or so out of its 
mouth. Lee sat there dumbfounded. Peggy Anderson, alarmed by the fuel bottle, 
ran over and immediately kicked the fuel bottle across the large room in a long 
arc, end over end, whsh, whsh, whsh, fuel and flame following 
majestically in its wake. A bit of gasoline had flown out and wetted Lee's arm, 
as Peggy had kicked it past him, and singed all the hair off his arm. As soon 
as the fires were put out Lee began complaining about his burn. There was no 
blistering or obvious burning or redness. We finished eating whilst Lee moaned 
and complained. Then we went caving for 6 hours. Lee stayed behind in camp 
cuddled up next to a quart of Kaluha he'd bought in Laredo. He said that ought 
to drive out the pain. We pretty much agreed. Upon returning from exploring the 
cave we found Lee passed out, face down on a large, flattish, breast shaped 
formation with his mouth and nose blowing bubbles in a pool of 
Kaluha/vomit/drool and very close to auto-drowning. Peggy thought we should 
turn him over to preclude his eminent demise. We did and laid him on his back, 
at which point he began vomiting a foot or so straight up into the air like and 
erupting volcano, all the drool 

texascavers Digest 12 Jun 2010 01:31:46 -0000 Issue 1076

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 12 Jun 2010 01:31:46 - Issue 1076

Topics (messages 15078 through 15093):

Re: TPWD WNS policy
15078 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
15082 by: Mark Minton

Re: WNS
15079 by: Jim Kennedy

Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave
15080 by: Jon Cradit
15084 by: Mark Minton

Re: short caves
15081 by: Logan McNatt
15083 by: Fritz Holt

Flaming near death in a Cave
15085 by: caverarch.aol.com
15086 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
15087 by: Stefan Creaser
15088 by: Geary Schindel
15089 by: Diana Tomchick
15093 by: Gill Edigar

Flaming Death
15090 by: Josh Rubinstein

small caves
15091 by: Mixon Bill
15092 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


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--
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the clarification, Jim.
 
 
How much will the TPWD position impact the policies of privately owned or 
non-profit managed caves, i.e., Punkin Cave, which the TCMA
owns and manages and has a large population of bats?
 
Will this effectively make it off limits and what is the TCMA's position?
 
Being a TCMA member, I think it should follow whatever the NSS and TPWD 
recommends.
 
I'd also be curious to see how the BCI responds to this and the caves that they 
own/manage.
 
 
Not trying to stir things up, just trying to see what we can do to limit the 
scourge of WNS.
 
 
 
 
Mark A.
 
 
 
 
 



From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org]
Sent: Fri 6/11/2010 9:31 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ EOS; htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: TPWD WNS policy



Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim


-Original Message-
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:14 AM
To: htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS

Can anyone clear up this line below?  Does this mean closing all caves
occupied by bats, i.e., Gorman Cave and others?

 But we intend to highly restrict entry into bat caves at TPWD
sites.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keeping cavers involved is good policy.  Here in Virginia 
the initial reaction to WNS was to close all caves on public lands 
and encourage cavers to stop caving, period.  That changed, however, 
after the powers that be realized that most of the good information 
they were getting on WNS was in fact coming from cavers.  We were the 
eyes and ears on the ground detecting WNS and monitoring its 
spread.  Policy changed to allowing caving (although still not on 
public lands) as long as people followed decontamination protocols 
and used dedicated sets of gear in specific areas.  Now that has been 
further relaxed because WNS is essentially endemic.  My guess is that 
soon most all restrictions on caving will be rescinded as long as 
decon is practiced and gear from contaminated areas is not taken to 
areas that are still free of WNS.


Mark Minton

At 10:41 AM 6/11/2010, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote:
Yes, and the few caves on WMAs are closed to public access as 
well.  We are trying to strike a balance between doing nothing, 
doing something just to show that we are doing something, and doing 
something that will make a positive difference.  The catchy refrain 
that I have been humming through all discussions on the topic is 
that responsible cavers are our best line of defense.  Not only can 
we serve as an early detection network, but we can play amajor role 
in getting the word out to the public, using our skills and 
knowledge to aid research, and making sure that this issue is 
considered a high priority by resource agencies.


AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Fri, 6/11/10, Jim Kennedy  wrote:

From: Jim Kennedy 
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com, htjo...@juno.com, texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 9:31 AM

Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeti

Re: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[Gill Edigar]

On our first several A&I (pre-)Grotto trips to Bustamante in the spring of
'67 we camped in the cave--carried all our gear and food for the weekend up
the treacherous trail--in the dark--and slept and ate there. Don't ask me
why. I thought it was tradition. Saturday (morning, I think) we were sitting
around in the Entrance Room cooking and getting ready to go caving. Several
Svea (white gasoline) stoves were roaring away. Lee Cantile was refueling
his prior to firing it up. He was a bit clumsy and poured a good bit more
gas on the packed mud cave floor than into the stove. Finally filling it he
sat the fuel bottle down without replacing the cap and proceeded to replace
the cap on his stove and begin the rather long, complicated, and tedious
process needed to preheat the fuel and fire up those silly stoves. In the
midst of this a great poof was heard and a fireball about 8 feet in diameter
rose up from his cooking area (and I recall a fearful scream, but may have
imagined it) then a ground fire of about an equal area about one foot high
continued to burn off the gas spilt on the ground. The fuel bottle spit a
flare a couple of feet or so out of its mouth. Lee sat there dumbfounded.
Peggy Anderson, alarmed by the fuel bottle, ran over and immediately kicked
the fuel bottle across the large room in a long arc, end over end, whsh,
whsh, whsh, fuel and flame following majestically in its wake. A bit
of gasoline had flown out and wetted Lee's arm, as Peggy had kicked it past
him, and singed all the hair off his arm. As soon as the fires were put out
Lee began complaining about his burn. There was no blistering or obvious
burning or redness. We finished eating whilst Lee moaned and complained.
Then we went caving for 6 hours. Lee stayed behind in camp cuddled up next
to a quart of Kaluha he'd bought in Laredo. He said that ought to drive out
the pain. We pretty much agreed. Upon returning from exploring the cave we
found Lee passed out, face down on a large, flattish, breast shaped
formation with his mouth and nose blowing bubbles in a pool of
Kaluha/vomit/drool and very close to auto-drowning. Peggy thought we should
turn him over to preclude his eminent demise. We did and laid him on his
back, at which point he began vomiting a foot or so straight up into the air
like and erupting volcano, all the drool falling right back onto his face
and threatening to drown him all over again. Vallooosh, he urped again and
the cascading fountain fell back into his open mouth and nostrils and he
coughed and gagged and blew more bubbles for our entertainment. It was all
no good. We settled for propping him up on his side and supporting his head
and letting him spend the night thus in his own misery. As I recall, his arm
was all better the next day--but the hair on his head was matted like a wool
blanket, his sleeping bag suitable for little more than fueling the fire.
And we stopped camping in the cave.
--Ediger

Re: [Texascavers] small caves

[dirtdoc]

Crooked Thumb surveyed Inutil Cave, north of Silver City.  It's all in the New 
Mexico and NS S cave records .  Early 1960s.  Pu blished in SW Cavers.  Belski 
has a copy.  So there. E nd of Thread. 



DirtDoc.

[Texascavers] small caves

[Mixon Bill]

Back when I was editing the Windy City Speleonews, James Hedges, who  
some fellow old fossils may remember was once the editor of the NSS  
Bulletin, was somewhat of a specialist on the caves of Iowa, and  
several times I published his long-winded articles with nice maps of  
insignificant Iowa caves. (I believe there is only one cave in Iowa  
that is not insignificant.) But I finally drew the line at a long  
article titled "The Smallest Caves in Iowa." -- Mixon


Go to Heaven for the climate,
Hell for the company.

You may "reply" to the address this message
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[Texascavers] Flaming Death

[Josh Rubinstein]

Well, let's see.  There was the time Tony ignited a smoke bomb to see which
way the wind blew inside a cave.  Or the time we were surveying and Scott
lit his boot (don't ask).  Or the time I tried to make a carbide bomb out of
a pumpkin.  But I digress.

Josh

Re: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[Diana Tomchick]

On Jun 11, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Geary Schindel wrote:


Carbine and LEDs both offer some advantages.

With Carbide,

You can start a fire, even on snow,
Make carbide bombs,
Stay warm, even in a cold wet cave
Provide a carbide assist for someone stuck in a crawl
Cut rope or webbing – whether intentional or unintentional
Cook your lunch
Cause your pack to explode from the spent carbide

 Mark survey stations
 Many sketchers prefer the softer, more diffuse light from a cap lamp
 Blame the nasty smell from your intestinal gas on your carbide lamp



With LEDs,
You can explore further in caves without oxygen
Use them underwater
Actually see where you’re going
Not start fires

 Blind the heck out of your fellow cavers
 See high leads in domes that you wish you could get to, but didn't  
bring the gear for the bolt climb


Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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RE: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[Geary Schindel]

Carbine and LEDs both offer some advantages.

With Carbide,

You can start a fire, even on snow,
Make carbide bombs,
Stay warm, even in a cold wet cave
Provide a carbide assist for someone stuck in a crawl
Cut rope or webbing - whether intentional or unintentional
Cook your lunch
Cause your pack to explode from the spent carbide

With LEDs,
You can explore further in caves without oxygen
Use them underwater
Actually see where you're going
Not start fires

RE: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[Stefan Creaser]

Well, you still need some carbide for above-ground, after-caving  fun -
carbide, bottle, water, cap, fire :-)

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 3:09 PM
To: cavera...@aol.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

 

 

Wow, after reading all of these near-death incidents caused by or around
carbide, it makes me wonder why anyone would consider not switching to
100% LED use!

 

 

Mark

 

 

 



From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
Sent: Fri 6/11/2010 3:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

Rod Goke may remember this event.  I forwarded this death or injury by
fire thread to another old Florida caver and he wrote back with a good
old tale I'd forgotten about:

 

"Subject: RE: Flaming near death in a Cave

Do you remember the exploding Flash Attachment I had on one caving trip?
It turned out that gas from my carbide lamp probably seeped into the
flash attachment & when I took a picture the electrical spark within the
Flash Attachment caused the explosion.  The sound was more frightening
than the explosion. "





I'm surprised I forget that one, because like Steve says, there was
quite a loud blast.  No injury, but I do believe that was the last time
he could use that flash attachment.





Roger Moore

GHG

 






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RE: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[Mark . Alman]

 
Wow, after reading all of these near-death incidents caused by or around 
carbide, it makes me wonder why anyone would consider not switching to 100% LED 
use!
 
 
Mark
 
 



From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
Sent: Fri 6/11/2010 3:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave


Rod Goke may remember this event.  I forwarded this death or injury by fire 
thread to another old Florida caver and he wrote back with a good old tale I'd 
forgotten about:

"Subject: RE: Flaming near death in a Cave


Do you remember the exploding Flash Attachment I had on one caving trip?  It 
turned out that gas from my carbide lamp probably seeped into the flash 
attachment & when I took a picture the electrical spark within the Flash 
Attachment caused the explosion.  The sound was more frightening than the 
explosion. "


I'm surprised I forget that one, because like Steve says, there was quite a 
loud blast.  No injury, but I do believe that was the last time he could use 
that flash attachment.


Roger Moore
GHG

[Texascavers] Flaming near death in a Cave

[caverarch]

Rod Goke may remember this event.  I forwarded this death or injury by fire 
thread to another old Florida caver and he wrote back with a good old tale I'd 
forgotten about:


"Subject: RE: Flaming near death in a Cave



Do you remember the exploding Flash Attachment I had on one caving trip?  It 
turned out that gas from my carbide lamp probably seeped into the flash 
attachment & when I took a picture the electrical spark within the Flash 
Attachment caused the explosion.  The sound was more frightening than the 
explosion. "


I'm surprised I forget that one, because like Steve says, there was quite a 
loud blast.  No injury, but I do believe that was the last time he could use 
that flash attachment.


Roger Moore
GHG


 






 

[Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Mark Minton]

I have had a couple of close calls with 
fire and caves myself.  Many years ago in Sótano 
de Japones north of Cd. Valles (Mexico) we were 
trudging along in a passage waist deep in 
water.  With each step bubbles arose from the 
muck on the bottom.  I became concerned that it 
might be methane, and did not want the 
concentration to build up to the point of 
flammability, where our carbide lamps would set 
it off at head level.  So I took my lamp off and 
held it in front of me, igniting each stream of 
bubbles as they were released.  That worked, but it looked pretty strange.


The other time fire played a role was in 
Madagascar where they routinely burned the grass 
lands.  We were checking entrances and watching 
the fires burning near by.  We found a cave that 
had some bones in it, which is what we were 
looking for, but the fires were getting close, so 
one person stayed on the surface as a 
lookout.  Sure enough, the fire came our way, and 
at one point the lookout said it was time to 
leave.  We ascended and drove off just ahead of the advancing fire.


I can't think of anyone dying in a cave 
because of burns, but injuries have occurred both 
from exploding spent carbide containers, and from 
exploding camp stoves or spilled fuel being ignited in underground camps.


Mark Minton

At 11:54 AM 6/11/2010, Geary Schindel wrote:

I know of two other issues with fire related to cavers.

There was a trip into Hidden River Cave Complex 
in Kentucky in the mid 80’s when some cavers – I 
think Phi Odel and Duke Hopper were the trip 
leaders, when the ceiling of a crawlway caught 
on fire and blue flames were burning for about 
100 feet along the ceiling.  They quickly 
crawled out of the crawlway, some leaving their 
packs behind, and managed to escape with only 
minor injuries.  The source of the flames turned 
out to be a leaking propane distribution tank on the surface.


The second event dates back to when folks used 
to use flames on their heads for light in 
caves.  I think Don Coons and Sherri Engler were 
exploring a small pit in the Mammoth Cave area 
when they accidently set some leaf litter on 
fire on the surface before entering the 
cave.  It probably smoldered and then finally 
caught on fire while they exploring the 
cave.  When they went to exit the cave, the tree 
their cable ladder was rigged to was on fire 
along with about an acre of woods around the 
cave.  They figure their carbide lamp probably 
set the blaze.  They managed to get to the 
surface and put out the tree before their 
webbing melted and exit the area to call for firefighting assistance.


I have also walked up to a cave in Kentucky that 
was out gassing gasoline from a leaking 
underground storage tank about a mile 
away.  However, the explosimeter said the 
mixture was too rich to explode so we were 
safe.  It was a large enough area that it would 
have made a very serious air/gas explosion had 
it caught on fire.  We didn’t hang around long.


Geary


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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RE: [Texascavers] Re: short caves

[Fritz Holt]

Speaking of filling in caves (or mines), in December, 2007 I posted information 
concerning a most unfortunate situation. In the mid to late 50's several 
buddies and I viewed the surface opening of a very deep horizontal mine shaft 
that quickly turned vertical. This was on the west side of highway 83 in Uvalde 
County about four miles SW of Concan, Texas. In the 50's and 60's the mine 
location was shown highlighted in red on some major oil company highway maps as 
"Silver Mine Pass". These maps also highlighted "Devil,s Sinkhole" and 
"Goodenough Spring". Due to the steeply sloping vertical drop in unstable 
caliche type earth, it was impossible for ill equipped "spelunkers" such as 
ourselves to get close enough to peer into the shaft. If memory serves me, the 
rocks we lobbed into the shaft took a good while to hit bottom. Surely it was 
at least 100 feet deep and probably more. State highway markers are said to 
attribute the digging of this or these mines to the Spaniards during the 1700's 
and were also worked by Jim Bowie and his men the year before he "visited" The 
Alamo. The unfortunate part of this story is that these most historic mines may 
no longer be available for exploration and discovery. The ranch on which these 
mines are located was later acquired by Governor Dolph Brisco and off limits to 
the public. Bob Oakley of Uvalde County advised me that "those mines have been 
bulldozed to keep out the curious". This apparently at Governor Briscoe's 
instruction. Who knows what archaeological treasures might have been retrieved 
from these ancient mines. Another piece of Texas history is lost to us for the 
sake of "safety" and "privacy".

Fritz Holt


-Original Message-
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 11:36 AM
To: Texascavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: short caves

A list of "significant short caves" would be more useful, and 
significantly shorter, than a list of  "short caves".
-

Jon wrote:  Caves in the city?!  Nothing but a pain in the back-side.
And most are longer that 17-feet.
The developers fill them in faster than they can be mapped in central Texas.
Plug and Pave!!

Diana wrote:  Any cave found so close to the downtown of a major city 
could be  
considered a significant cave, even if only 17 feet long. It appears  
to have been a significant shelter for the poor person who perished in  
the fire.




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[Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy

[Mark Minton]

Keeping cavers involved is good policy.  Here in Virginia 
the initial reaction to WNS was to close all caves on public lands 
and encourage cavers to stop caving, period.  That changed, however, 
after the powers that be realized that most of the good information 
they were getting on WNS was in fact coming from cavers.  We were the 
eyes and ears on the ground detecting WNS and monitoring its 
spread.  Policy changed to allowing caving (although still not on 
public lands) as long as people followed decontamination protocols 
and used dedicated sets of gear in specific areas.  Now that has been 
further relaxed because WNS is essentially endemic.  My guess is that 
soon most all restrictions on caving will be rescinded as long as 
decon is practiced and gear from contaminated areas is not taken to 
areas that are still free of WNS.


Mark Minton

At 10:41 AM 6/11/2010, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote:
Yes, and the few caves on WMAs are closed to public access as 
well.  We are trying to strike a balance between doing nothing, 
doing something just to show that we are doing something, and doing 
something that will make a positive difference.  The catchy refrain 
that I have been humming through all discussions on the topic is 
that responsible cavers are our best line of defense.  Not only can 
we serve as an early detection network, but we can play amajor role 
in getting the word out to the public, using our skills and 
knowledge to aid research, and making sure that this issue is 
considered a high priority by resource agencies.


AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Fri, 6/11/10, Jim Kennedy  wrote:

From: Jim Kennedy 
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com, htjo...@juno.com, texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 9:31 AM

Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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[Texascavers] Re: short caves

[Logan McNatt]

A list of "significant short caves" would be more useful, and 
significantly shorter, than a list of  "short caves".

-

Jon wrote:  Caves in the city?!  Nothing but a pain in the back-side.
And most are longer that 17-feet.
The developers fill them in faster than they can be mapped in central Texas.
Plug and Pave!!

Diana wrote:  Any cave found so close to the downtown of a major city 
could be  
considered a significant cave, even if only 17 feet long. It appears  
to have been a significant shelter for the poor person who perished in  
the fire.





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RE: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Jon Cradit]

Caves in the city?!  Nothing but a pain in the back-side.
And most are longer that 17-feet.
The developers fill them in faster than they can be mapped in central Texas.
Plug and Pave!!

JC


-Original Message-
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 10:58 AM
To: Keith Goggin
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

Any cave found so close to the downtown of a major city could be  
considered a significant cave, even if only 17 feet long. It appears  
to have been a significant shelter for the poor person who perished in  
the fire.

Diana

On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Keith Goggin wrote:

> Ha!  Yeah, it only took one shot, but we were trying to get *all*  
> the caves in the county mapped (and as far as I know we did!).  I  
> think we mapped at least two that were even shorter - although one  
> of those actually has two entrances.
>
> From: Mark Minton 
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 4:10:47 PM
> Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave
>
> Keith,
>
> You mapped a 17-foot long cave?!  Sounds like a candidate
> for Ediger's list of shortest caves.  :-)
>
> Mark
>
> At 04:38 PM 6/10/2010, Keith Goggin wrote:
> >Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published
> >the Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).
> >
> >The matress was there then too.
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >From: Mark Minton 
> >To: Texascavers 
> >Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 1:57:08 PM
> >Subject: [Texascavers] Another Way to Die in a Cave
> >
> >Here's another way to die in a cave:  by
> > fire.  
> >
> >Mark Minton
>
> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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[Texascavers] RE: WNS

[Jim Kennedy]

TPWD policy may certainly set some guidance to TCMA and other entities,
but has little or no jurisdiction.  I already require new or fully
deconned clothing and gear for all Punkin Cave survey trips.  BCI has a
similar policy for Bracken Bat Cave.  Right now we are all (including
TPWD) looking toward the USFWS for guidance.  We'll likely see some
management changes in the future as WNS moves closer to Texas and we
learn more about it.  For those on the list who may be interested in
more WNS info, the three best websites are the USFWS
(http://www.fws.gov/whitenosesyndrome), the NSS
(http://www.caves.org/WNS), and of course, BCI
(http://www.batcon.org/index.php/what-we-do/white-nose-syndrome.html).

 

 

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 10:57 AM
To: Jim Kennedy; htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: TPWD WNS policy

 

 How much will the TPWD position impact the policies of privately
owned or non-profit managed caves, i.e., Punkin Cave, which the TCMA

owns and manages and has a large population of bats? Will this
effectively make it off limits and what is the TCMA's position? Being a
TCMA member, I think it should follow whatever the NSS and TPWD
recommends. I'd also be curious to see how the BCI responds to this and
the caves that they own/manage.

 

[Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy

[Mark . Alman]

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.
 
 
How much will the TPWD position impact the policies of privately owned or 
non-profit managed caves, i.e., Punkin Cave, which the TCMA
owns and manages and has a large population of bats?
 
Will this effectively make it off limits and what is the TCMA's position?
 
Being a TCMA member, I think it should follow whatever the NSS and TPWD 
recommends.
 
I'd also be curious to see how the BCI responds to this and the caves that they 
own/manage.
 
 
Not trying to stir things up, just trying to see what we can do to limit the 
scourge of WNS.
 
 
 
 
Mark A.
 
 
 
 
 



From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org]
Sent: Fri 6/11/2010 9:31 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ EOS; htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: TPWD WNS policy



Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim


-Original Message-
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:14 AM
To: htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS

Can anyone clear up this line below?  Does this mean closing all caves
occupied by bats, i.e., Gorman Cave and others?

 But we intend to highly restrict entry into bat caves at TPWD
sites.

texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2010 15:55:41 -0000 Issue 1075

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2010 15:55:41 - Issue 1075

Topics (messages 15071 through 15077):

Tour Guide Position
15071 by: Scott Kyle

Re: TPWD WNS policy
15072 by: Jim Kennedy
15074 by: Andy Gluesenkamp

Re: WNS in Texas
15073 by: Josh Rubinstein

Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave
15075 by: Keith Goggin
15076 by: Geary Schindel
15077 by: Diana Tomchick

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Boerne, TX , 6/11/2010:
Looking for a full-time tour guide with great communication skills and 
significant cave research and/or experience under their belts. This position 
would also be responsible for coordination of volunteers for in-cave and 
above-cave projects as well as their own projects. 

We're also looking for a beginner tour guide with an interest in caves for the 
Summer, part or full time.

Please email CV and statement of interest to:

Scott Kyle (sk...@cascadecaverns.com)
 
Scott Kyle, AIA, LEED
Vice President
(830) 755-8080 office, (804) 402-8985 cell




www.cascadecaverns.com
See Texas Downunder: RV & Tent Camping and Cave Tours Daily
226 Cascade Caverns Rd, Boerne, Texas  78015




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim


-Original Message-
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:14 AM
To: htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS

Can anyone clear up this line below?  Does this mean closing all caves
occupied by bats, i.e., Gorman Cave and others?

 But we intend to highly restrict entry into bat caves at TPWD
sites.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, and the few caves on WMAs are closed to public access as well.  We are 
trying to strike a balance between doing nothing, doing something just to show 
that we are doing something, and doing something that will make a positive 
difference.  The catchy refrain that I have been humming through all 
discussions on the topic is that responsible cavers are our best line of 
defense.  Not only can we serve as an early detection network, but we can play 
amajor role in getting the word out to the public, using our skills and 
knowledge to aid research, and making sure that this issue is considered a high 
priority by resource agencies.  
 
AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Fri, 6/11/10, Jim Kennedy  wrote:


From: Jim Kennedy 
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com, htjo...@juno.com, texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 9:31 AM


Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,

I may be jumping the gun but I just watched WNS pit cavers against state
park and wildlife officials in Virginia.  Cooperative relationships that
were built over years are now defensive, at the least.

We know next to nothing about WNS.  We do not know how it is transported.
We do not know how long it takes to show up.  We do not know how it kills.
All we know is Geomyctes is present and that WNS kills.  When TPWD
"restricts access" to its caves, they are trying to put a barrier between
the disease and the bats, not as a long term management plan, but to buy
some time until we know enough to have an effective strategy.  I would guess
the reason they say restrict, and not close, is because they will need us to
collect the necessary data.  That may include getting a baseline inventory,
collecting samples, and even, yes, mapping caves.  When we meet with those
whose job it is to protect the bats, I would rather we discuss a strategy to
save them than argue over "restricted acce

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Diana Tomchick]

Any cave found so close to the downtown of a major city could be  
considered a significant cave, even if only 17 feet long. It appears  
to have been a significant shelter for the poor person who perished in  
the fire.


Diana

On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Keith Goggin wrote:

Ha!  Yeah, it only took one shot, but we were trying to get *all*  
the caves in the county mapped (and as far as I know we did!).  I  
think we mapped at least two that were even shorter - although one  
of those actually has two entrances.


From: Mark Minton 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 4:10:47 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

Keith,

You mapped a 17-foot long cave?!  Sounds like a candidate
for Ediger's list of shortest caves.  :-)

Mark

At 04:38 PM 6/10/2010, Keith Goggin wrote:
>Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published
>the Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).
>
>The matress was there then too.
>
>Keith
>
>From: Mark Minton 
>To: Texascavers 
>Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 1:57:08 PM
>Subject: [Texascavers] Another Way to Die in a Cave
>
>Here's another way to die in a cave:  by
> fire.  
>
>Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org


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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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RE: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Geary Schindel]

I know of two other issues with fire related to cavers.

There was a trip into Hidden River Cave Complex in Kentucky in the mid 80's 
when some cavers - I think Phi Odel and Duke Hopper were the trip leaders, when 
the ceiling of a crawlway caught on fire and blue flames were burning for about 
100 feet along the ceiling.  They quickly crawled out of the crawlway, some 
leaving their packs behind, and managed to escape with only minor injuries.  
The source of the flames turned out to be a leaking propane distribution tank 
on the surface.

The second event dates back to when folks used to use flames on their heads for 
light in caves.  I think Don Coons and Sherri Engler were exploring a small pit 
in the Mammoth Cave area when they accidently set some leaf litter on fire on 
the surface before entering the cave.  It probably smoldered and then finally 
caught on fire while they exploring the cave.  When they went to exit the cave, 
the tree their cable ladder was rigged to was on fire along with about an acre 
of woods around the cave.  They figure their carbide lamp probably set the 
blaze.  They managed to get to the surface and put out the tree before their 
webbing melted and exit the area to call for firefighting assistance.

I have also walked up to a cave in Kentucky that was out gassing gasoline from 
a leaking underground storage tank about a mile away.  However, the 
explosimeter said the mixture was too rich to explode so we were safe.  It was 
a large enough area that it would have made a very serious air/gas explosion 
had it caught on fire.  We didn't hang around long.

Geary

From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 10:05 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

Ha!  Yeah, it only took one shot, but we were trying to get *all* the caves in 
the county mapped (and as far as I know we did!).  I think we mapped at least 
two that were even shorter - although one of those actually has two entrances.


From: Mark Minton 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 4:10:47 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

Keith,

You mapped a 17-foot long cave?!  Sounds like a candidate
for Ediger's list of shortest caves.  :-)

Mark

At 04:38 PM 6/10/2010, Keith Goggin wrote:
>Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published
>the Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).
>
>The matress was there then too.
>
>Keith
>
>From: Mark Minton mailto:mmin...@caver.net>>
>To: Texascavers 
>mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
>Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 1:57:08 PM
>Subject: [Texascavers] Another Way to Die in a Cave
>
>Here's another way to die in a cave:  by
> fire.  
>
>Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is 
mmin...@illinoisalumni.org


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Re: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

[Keith Goggin]

Ha!  Yeah, it only took one shot, but we were trying to get *all* the caves in 
the county mapped (and as far as I know we did!).  I think we mapped at least 
two that were even shorter - although one of those actually has two entrances.





From: Mark Minton 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 4:10:47 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Another Way to Die in a Cave

Keith,

        You mapped a 17-foot long cave?!  Sounds like a candidate 
for Ediger's list of shortest caves.  :-)

Mark

At 04:38 PM 6/10/2010, Keith Goggin wrote:
>Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published 
>the Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).
>
>The matress was there then too.
>
>Keith
>
>From: Mark Minton 
>To: Texascavers 
>Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 1:57:08 PM
>Subject: [Texascavers] Another Way to Die in a Cave
>
>        Here's another way to die in a cave:  by 
> fire.  
>
>Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 


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Re: [Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

Yes, and the few caves on WMAs are closed to public access as well.  We are 
trying to strike a balance between doing nothing, doing something just to show 
that we are doing something, and doing something that will make a positive 
difference.  The catchy refrain that I have been humming through all 
discussions on the topic is that responsible cavers are our best line of 
defense.  Not only can we serve as an early detection network, but we can play 
amajor role in getting the word out to the public, using our skills and 
knowledge to aid research, and making sure that this issue is considered a high 
priority by resource agencies.  
 
AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Fri, 6/11/10, Jim Kennedy  wrote:


From: Jim Kennedy 
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com, htjo...@juno.com, texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 9:31 AM


Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim

Re: [Texascavers] WNS in Texas

[Josh Rubinstein]

Mark,

I may be jumping the gun but I just watched WNS pit cavers against state
park and wildlife officials in Virginia.  Cooperative relationships that
were built over years are now defensive, at the least.

We know next to nothing about WNS.  We do not know how it is transported.
We do not know how long it takes to show up.  We do not know how it kills.
All we know is Geomyctes is present and that WNS kills.  When TPWD
"restricts access" to its caves, they are trying to put a barrier between
the disease and the bats, not as a long term management plan, but to buy
some time until we know enough to have an effective strategy.  I would guess
the reason they say restrict, and not close, is because they will need us to
collect the necessary data.  That may include getting a baseline inventory,
collecting samples, and even, yes, mapping caves.  When we meet with those
whose job it is to protect the bats, I would rather we discuss a strategy to
save them than argue over "restricted access".

Josh

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:54 AM, mark gee  wrote:

>  2 cents:
> I guess this means that our Colorado Bend project might have to be posponed
> until this WNS is over. The Texas Parks and Wildlife  memo said that caves
> with bats would be closed to entry. Alot of the caves at CBSP dont have bats
> and the caves we are surveying, it is not always known weather they have
> bats or not. Some caves have been explored and mapped and bats not seen.
> Will we be able to visit these caves? I hope that we will still be able to
> visit those but on the side of caution, these too may be closed. This is a
> serious situation. We must all do our part to try to contain this WNS. I
> hope that our warmer caves here might isolate our Texas caves from the WNS.
> I would like to here what the rest of you think and hear some of your
> comments.
> Mark G
> Happy Caving!
>
>

[Texascavers] RE: TPWD WNS policy

[Jim Kennedy]

Mark,

Caves that have bats are not necessarily "bat caves."  And caves lacking
bats are not necessarily NOT "bat caves."  I can explain the differences
later if anyone is interested, but it will probably be a long and boring
explanation.  But in this case, based on our meeting with TPWD a couple
of weeks ago, we are talking specifically about entry into Gorman Cave,
Devils Sinkhole, Stuart Bat Cave, Fawcetts Cave, and one or two others.
Caves with a random tri-colored bat or two are (so far) not on this
list.

-- Jim


-Original Message-
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:14 AM
To: htjo...@juno.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS

Can anyone clear up this line below?  Does this mean closing all caves
occupied by bats, i.e., Gorman Cave and others?

 But we intend to highly restrict entry into bat caves at TPWD
sites.


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[Texascavers] Tour Guide Position

[Scott Kyle]

Boerne, TX , 6/11/2010:
Looking for a full-time tour guide with great communication skills and 
significant cave research and/or experience under their belts. This position 
would also be responsible for coordination of volunteers for in-cave and 
above-cave projects as well as their own projects. 

We're also looking for a beginner tour guide with an interest in caves for the 
Summer, part or full time.

Please email CV and statement of interest to:

Scott Kyle (sk...@cascadecaverns.com)
 
Scott Kyle, AIA, LEED
Vice President
(830) 755-8080 office, (804) 402-8985 cell




www.cascadecaverns.com
See Texas Downunder: RV & Tent Camping and Cave Tours Daily
226 Cascade Caverns Rd, Boerne, Texas  78015

texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2010 13:16:04 -0000 Issue 1074

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2010 13:16:04 - Issue 1074

Topics (messages 15058 through 15070):

Re: 9th Distinguished Lecture - Dr. Ralph Ewers - Friday, September 17, 2010
15058 by: Geary Schindel

Another Way to Die in a Cave
15059 by: Mark Minton
15061 by: Keith Goggin
15062 by: Mark Minton

Oldest Leather Shoe found in Cave
15060 by: Mark Minton

Re: old shoes:  sandals in Ceremonial Cave, TX
15063 by: Logan McNatt

Sinkhole cliff diving competition held in Mexico near Chichen Itza  :
15064 by: jerryatkin.aol.com

new LED headlamp
15065 by: David

Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS
15066 by: htjohn1.juno.com
15067 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

WNS in Texas
15068 by: mark gee
15069 by: mark gee
15070 by: mark gee

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--- Begin Message ---

Folks,
The Edwards Aquifer Authority is pleased to announce that Dr. Ralph Ewers with 
Ewers Water Consultants in Richmond, Kentucky will be the 9th Distinguished 
Lecturer in our series.  He will present on Friday, September 17, 2010 at 
Southwest Research Institute.
Dr. Ewers served as Professor of geology and hydrogeology at Eastern Kentucky 
University, where he is emeritus professor, and the University of Kentucky.  
For the past 30 years, he has engaged in consulting with 30 of his past and 
active graduate students.  He has consulted for fortune 500 corporations, 
government agencies, and private citizens.
His research interests include the genesis of solution conduits in karst 
aquifers and their implications for contaminant transport.  This work was 
recognized by the Geological Society of America with its E. B. Burwell Award in 
1986. With his graduate students he pioneered the use of digital data loggers 
and innovative tracing techniques in karst aquifer investigations.  Dr. Ewers' 
research and consulting experience have taken him throughout most of eastern 
North America, including the Edwards Aquifer, the Canadian Northwest, the 
Caribbean, the British Isles, and Europe.  He has studied karst aquifers that 
range from alpine terranes to the tropics.  In 1968 The National Speleological 
Society elected him Fellow and awarded its certificate of merit.
Dr. Ewers will present a one-day workshop on karst aquifers, discussing the 
means by which we can understand their characteristics, and the transport and 
storage of contaminants within them.   Discussions will focus on:

*  Karst aquifers, a few fundamental ideas

*  The problem of prediction- Contaminants, Models, 
Assumptions, and Authority

*  Wells, Tracers and Electronics, What can they tell us?

*  The behavior of floating and sinking hydrocarbons in karst 
aquifers

*  How not to diagnose contaminant problems in karst





To register for the seminar, you may contact Ms. Elida Bocanegra at 
ebocane...@edwardsaquifer.org.  The cost 
of the seminar will be $20.00 or $10.00 for students.  Additional information 
will be posted on the Authority's web page in the near future at 
www.edwardsaquifer.org



Thank you,



Geary Schindel

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--- Begin Message ---
Here's another way to die in a cave:  by 
fire.  


Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published the 
Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).  

The matress was there then too.

Keith




From: Mark Minton 
To: Texascavers 
Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 1:57:08 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Another Way to Die in a Cave

        Here's another way to die in a cave:  by fire.  


Mark Minton

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Keith,

You mapped a 17-foot long cave?!  Sounds like a candidate 
for Ediger's list of shortest caves.  :-)


Mark

At 04:38 PM 6/10/2010, Keith Goggin wrote:
Wow!  I mapped that little cave about 25 years ago when we published 
the Roanoke County Cave Survey (that one was one of the smallest!).


The matress was there then too.

Keith

From: Mark Minton 
To: Texascavers 
Sent: Thu, June 10,

Re: [Texascavers] Fw: WNS in Texas

[mark gee]

From: mark gee 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; Mark Alman 
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 8:05:05 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Fw: WNS in Texas


I underlined the new wording



- Forwarded Message 
From: mark gee 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; memb...@maverickgrotto.org; Jim Kennedy 

Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 7:54:02 AM
Subject: WNS in Texas


  
2 cents: 
I guess this means that our Colorado Bend project might have to be posponed 
until this WNS is over. The Texas Parks and Wildlife  memo said that caves with 
bats would have highly restricted entry . Alot of the caves at CBSP dont have 
bats and the caves we are surveying, it is not always known weather they have 
bats or not. Some caves have been explored and mapped and bats not seen. Will 
we be able to visit these caves? I hope that we will still be able to visit 
those but on the side of caution, these too may be closed. This is a serious 
situation. We must all do our part to try to contain this WNS. I hope that our 
warmer caves here might isolate our Texas caves from the WNS. I would like to 
here what the rest of you think and hear some of your comments. 
Mark G
Happy Caving! 


  

[Texascavers] Fw: WNS in Texas

[mark gee]

- Forwarded Message 
From: mark gee 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; memb...@maverickgrotto.org; Jim Kennedy 

Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 7:54:02 AM
Subject: WNS in Texas


  
2 cents: 
I guess this means that our Colorado Bend project might have to be posponed 
until this WNS is over. The Texas Parks and Wildlife  memo said that caves with 
bats would be closed to entry. Alot of the caves at CBSP dont have bats and the 
caves we are surveying, it is not always known weather they have bats or not. 
Some caves have been explored and mapped and bats not seen. Will we be able to 
visit these caves? I hope that we will still be able to visit those but on the 
side of caution, these too may be closed. This is a serious situation. We must 
all do our part to try to contain this WNS. I hope that our warmer caves here 
might isolate our Texas caves from the WNS. I would like to here what the rest 
of you think and hear some of your comments. 
Mark G
Happy Caving! 



  

[Texascavers] WNS in Texas

[mark gee]

2 cents: 
I guess this means that our Colorado Bend project might have to be posponed 
until this WNS is over. The Texas Parks and Wildlife  memo said that caves with 
bats would be closed to entry. Alot of the caves at CBSP dont have bats and the 
caves we are surveying, it is not always known weather they have bats or not. 
Some caves have been explored and mapped and bats not seen. Will we be able to 
visit these caves? I hope that we will still be able to visit those but on the 
side of caution, these too may be closed. This is a serious situation. We must 
all do our part to try to contain this WNS. I hope that our warmer caves here 
might isolate our Texas caves from the WNS. I would like to here what the rest 
of you think and hear some of your comments. 
Mark G
Happy Caving!


  

RE: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS

[Mark . Alman]

Can anyone clear up this line below:?


Does this mean closing all caves occupied by bats, i.e., Gorman Cave and
others?


Curious,

Mark





-Original Message-
From: htjo...@juno.com [mailto:htjo...@juno.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:26 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Texas Parks & Wildlife -- policy re WNS



But we intend to highly restrict entry into bat caves at TPWD sites. 

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