[SWR] Fw: Please Read! Conservation Information Needed!
It is time for the NSS to apply to the 2011 Combined Federal Campaign. If approved, this means that all federal military employees around the world can select the NSS to receive donations when they participate in the Combined Federal Campaign (CFC). (Our CFC number is 10808.) HOW CAN YOU HELP? Part of the application package requires that I document how the NSS “provided services in at least 15 different states” over the three year period immediately preceding the campaign’s application year. Thanks to YOUR efforts, I have information for 2008 and 2009. I NEED to collect the data for 2010 now. Did you participate in a clean-up, restoration, or other conservation related activity? If so, PLEASE take a minute and EMAIL SCOTT FEE this basic information: Where? (City or County and State) Activity? (Clean up? What? How many bags/pounds of trash? Graffiti Removal? Other?) How many People? Need at least 5 to make this a viable service. Please post this message to your grotto e-mail account or any other cave related group to spread the word so I will get enough responses… Established in 1961, the CFC is the largest workplace charity campaign in the country and the only campaign authorized to solicit and collect contributions from federal employees in the workplace. Through this effort, nearly four million federal employees and military personnel are able to contribute to the organizations of their choice during the annual charity drive, which runs from September 1 through December 15. Scott Fee, NSS Fund Raising Dude scottfee A-T bellsouth D-O-T net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
texascavers Digest 10 Dec 2010 19:25:33 -0000 Issue 1208
texascavers Digest 10 Dec 2010 19:25:33 - Issue 1208 Topics (messages 16689 through 16693): Re: Rattlesnake Cave, Oklahoma, and True Grit 16689 by: John Brooks Re: El Malpais 16690 by: Rod Goke 16691 by: Andy Gluesenkamp 16692 by: Fofo 16693 by: Andy Gluesenkamp Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- There is a fairly long cave on Winding Stair mountain called Bear Den Cave. It has several entrances. And seems like I have heard past stories about a body recovery from the cave in the past. The cave has close to a 1000 feet of passage...although I am not sure it has been mapped. Seems like there is an old survey of it done by Joe Looney. It might be the same cave. Or I suppose it is quite likely that there are other caves in the area. The rock is some type of sandstone. And Bear Den is formed along a fault that runs north/south across the mountain. There is significant air movement through the cave and there is a nice blowing lead at the back. A group from DFWG did a couple of dig trips to follow the air in the early 80sand opened up some more passage. But ran into another constriction with airflow. We suspected that there was likely another entrancebut never found it. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:39 AM, cavera...@aol.com wrote: A journalist and historian friend in Florida (who was with a TV station in Fort Smith for a number of years) has brought to my attention a little mystery about an Oklahoma cave and a major motion picture. Maybe some North Texas cavers know the cave (or crevice or whatever; I don't think there is much in the way of true solutional caves in the Ouachita Mountains, of which I believe the Winding Stairs to be a part). Roger Moore GHG Roger, The publicity about the True Grit remake brought to mind a little mystery that might be of interest to you and your caver friends. Its a little known fact that the Rattlesnake Cave in the movie was actually based on a real Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair Mountain area of eastern Oklahoma. A real-life Deputy U.S. Marshal went down into the cave to retrieve the body of a murder victim and found himself in a nest of rattlesnakes. The cave was well known in the late 1800s, but its location has been lost to modern historians. Any thoughts on it? (Oh, and if you want to read a little about the real Rooster Cogburn, you might enjoy this: www.exploresouthernhistory.com/roostercogburn). There is a scene near the end in which the young girl who hires the deputy marshal is put down into a cave by the outlaws and finds herself surrounded by snakes. The incident in the book and movie was based on a real life incident in the 1880s when a woman was thrown into Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair area of the Ouachitas. The outlaws responsible were apprehended, but in order to prove the case against them, the Deputy Marshals out of Fort Smith had to retrieve the remains of the victim. One of the officers was lowered on a rope into the cave, which was described as a crevice and as he was collecting the bones and other evidence realized he was surrounded by rattlesnakes. He opened fire on them and emptied his pistols, yelling at the same time for the other lawmen to pull him up. When he came up out of the cave, he had one snake around his neck and another around his arm which so frightened the men pulling him up that they almost dropped him back down the hole. It is quite a story and apparently is true. All that is known today about the location of the cave is that it is in the Winding Stair area south of Fort Smith. It would be interesting to find. Dale ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to
[Texascavers] Devils Sinkhole TPWD Video
Folks, Here is a short clip the TPWD will be airing April 17-24, 2011 on PBS stations. This is a you tube link and will have improved resolution and audio for airing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiec5uEfX1I Abe Moore, with TPWD, asked that I forward it to cavers. Thanks, Geary
[SWR] Wired Article on WNS
Really good article on WNS in Wired magazine. Sorry if this was already sent out before. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/white-nose-syndrome/ ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais
They have been looking at old photos and now think it was in Europe at least since the mid 90's http://caves.org/WNS/journal.pone.0013853.pdf Lots more info at the NSS WNS website http://caves.org/WNS/ Jennifer List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:41:19 -0600 From: mikef...@att.net To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais Where have I been? I didn't know this WNS started across the Atlantic until now. Actually I did a Google search and it seems to be primarily speculation: Often 90 percent of the bats are killed-off after the first appearance of the fungus. And Kunz says that may have been what happened to bats in Europe because we don't find as many bats in European caves as there have been in North American caves: KUNZ: Now it's very possible that in historic times there were large numbers of hibernating bats in Europe, and ... these were the survivors that may be resistant to the fungus. So the arrival of the fungus may mean U.S. bat species will permanently drop in numbers, like the bats in Europe. It makes some sense, but I wouldn't call it particularly solid evidence. Give the slow progression of the disease across this country - 4 years to get from NY to OK - I would suspect bat-to-bat transmission. Mike On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, dgda...@nyx.net wrote: Stephen Fleming wrote: a) No demonstrated human vector; pure, unsubstantiated speculation in every announcement to date as to a human component. True, and there is also a plausible counter-vector in every case. I formerly supposed that the original WNS focus at Howe Caverns, NY must have been from human transmission, because bats don't fly across the Atlantic (an assumption repeated in the WNS article in the Dec. National Geographic). But someone at the last Fort Stanton expedition (perhaps you, Stephen?) mentioned to me that bats have been known to cross the oceans on ships. Peter Youngbaer later confirmed to me that there are multiple documented cases of this, and pointed out that Howe Caverns is relatively close to a port used by seagoing ships. Ship traffic is a very common vector for invasive organisms in general. In view of that, it seems at least equally likely (if not more so) that a stowaway bat flying to Howe Caverns was the initial vector, rather than visitors' shoes or gear. Such a bat would be likely to have made much closer contact with resident bats than would humans who might have been bearing G. d. spores. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais
Thank you. Good information to have. Mike On Fri, 10 Dec 2010, bigredfo...@hotmail.com wrote: They have been looking at old photos and now think it was in Europe at least since the mid 90's http://caves.org/WNS/journal.pone.0013853.pdf Lots more info at the NSS WNS website http://caves.org/WNS/ Jennifer ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
In the not so far off future Genetically modified, WNS resistant bats fluttering around the countrysides and cities. But who knew that WNS resistance also activated the GIGANTIC-ISM gene 10 generations later? Now tiny insects are no longer enough! They need protein, and there are so many of us soft, plump humans On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com -- *From:* freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On *Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com*wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com -- *From:* Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com *To:* Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM *Subject:* [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.eduhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.orghttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edi...@amcs-pubs.orgor sa...@amcs-pubs.orghttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.comhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-h...@texascavers.com -- Ron Rutherford Microsoft SQL Server DBA/Developer
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Hi Andy. I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but it's more about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is recommending closing access to caves in their lands, in California, Lava Beds National Monument is rewriting its general plan and considering excluding caving (and there's pretty much nothing else to do there other than go into lava tubes). In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public lands, but in the western US is the other way around, so things like this would have a big impact in caving. And of course, the reaction is more Oh, man, I won't be able to go caving and I really like caving! but I agree that they are just blanket measures, extreme measures, so that the agencies err on the side of caution. If a cave in a specific park gets WNS, then the park manager will have to answer why he didn't do more, so restricting all access brings him some safety. Not that I support this, but I guess that's why it's being done. - Fofo Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 : Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com *From:* Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
I agree, Fofo. Better to err on the side of caution than to have the phrase Do-Nothing Dumbass carved in your headstone. We can bitch about closures all we want but closures are not necessarily permanent, extinction is. If niche modeling and other studies show that Western states have nothing to worry about, then temporary closures will have been a small cost to have paid. As a caver, I am not in favor of losing acess to caves but, as a biologist, I am willing to put my personal preferences on the back burner until we have a better idea of what we are dealing with. Ciao, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Fofo gonza...@msu.edu To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:06:20 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Hi Andy. I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but it's more about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is recommending closing access to caves in their lands, in California, Lava Beds National Monument is rewriting its general plan and considering excluding caving (and there's pretty much nothing else to do there other than go into lava tubes). In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public lands, but in the western US is the other way around, so things like this would have a big impact in caving. And of course, the reaction is more Oh, man, I won't be able to go caving and I really like caving! but I agree that they are just blanket measures, extreme measures, so that the agencies err on the side of caution. If a cave in a specific park gets WNS, then the park manager will have to answer why he didn't do more, so restricting all access brings him some safety. Not that I support this, but I guess that's why it's being done. - Fofo Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 : Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com *From:* Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures. --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 12:48 PM Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least
RE: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Yeah, Other than drug cartels, beheadings, kidnappings, and random shootings, it's a great place to go! Mark From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:19 PM To: Andy Gluesenkamp Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures.
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
�Hola! TL;DR: For 99.99% of the people, it still is. I spent some time in September in Mexico, for the 200th anniversary of the independence. Unfortunately, I had been following all the news about shootings, killings, etc, etc, in blogs that are dedicated to that. For the very first time, I felt uneasy while walking in the streets. The second day I really noticed it, and I started to wonder why. What happened that was making me feel that way? I thought about all the news that I had been reading almost exclusively, and how they had affected me. Then I just focused on the people around me. They were not looking left and right, waiting for stray bullets, or staying indoors because of fear. It was just another normal day: families out, enjoying time in the park while kids played football (soccer, of course) on the lawn, couples walking on the street, friends buying tacos on a street stand, deliveries being made, carts selling Mexican flags (for the independence day celebrations), etc. If all you read about a place is the equivalent of the Police newspaper section, you'll have a very different impression of it than the impression you would get by reading also the other sections of the newspaper. I'm listening now in the mornings (via internet) Mexican newscasts, so I hear about a recent event that was held to get donations for building hospitals and treatment centers for kids, about a golf tournament organized by Lorena Ochoa, about Telmex opening a high technology center where people can go and use super fast internet connections and the latest computers to do research, etc. I'm not trying to minimize the current situation in Mexico, I know (and everybody knows) that it's something serious and worrying. But I'll be going back to Mexico for Christmas and New Years soon, and you know? I can't wait! Take care, - Fofo On 10/12/10 13:20, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Yeah, Other than drug cartels, beheadings, kidnappings, and random shootings, it�s a great place to go! Mark *From:*freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Friday, December 10, 2010 2:19 PM *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] going to Mexico
I'm getting downright discouraged by all the negative comments about Mexico and all the trips that don't seem to be happening. I'm pretty well plugged into the news, although my main and nearly only source is the New York Times, and I can think of only one case of a random American tourist getting killed in Mexico lately, and that was the guy on a boat near the gulf. A couple of other dead Americans worked with a US consulate. Where are all the reports of random tourists being ambushed on the highway and robbed, kidnapped, or killed? You can be sure that one incident like that would make as much news up here as fifty Mexicans killing each other (not that that's a particularly good thing to say about the US press). Remember the rule about never driving in Mexico at night, the insane Mexican bus drivers, and the trucks with no lights? We didn't worry then, and the busses seem to have been tamed. As long as you don't hang around the border towns, I wouldn't be surprised if it's safer to drive now then it was then. Of course, this is easy for me to say, I guess, because I gave up going to Mexico ten years ago for unrelated reasons. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Rattlesnake Cave, Oklahoma, and True Grit
A journalist and historian friend in Florida (who was with a TV station in Fort Smith for a number of years) has brought to my attention a little mystery about an Oklahoma cave and a major motion picture. Maybe some North Texas cavers know the cave (or crevice or whatever; I don't think there is much in the way of true solutional caves in the Ouachita Mountains, of which I believe the Winding Stairs to be a part). Roger Moore GHG Roger, The publicity about the True Grit remake brought to mind a little mystery that might be of interest to you and your caver friends. Its a little known fact that the Rattlesnake Cave in the movie was actually based on a real Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair Mountain area of eastern Oklahoma. A real-life Deputy U.S. Marshal went down into the cave to retrieve the body of a murder victim and found himself in a nest of rattlesnakes. The cave was well known in the late 1800s, but its location has been lost to modern historians. Any thoughts on it? (Oh, and if you want to read a little about the real Rooster Cogburn, you might enjoy this: www.exploresouthernhistory.com/roostercogburn). There is a scene near the end in which the young girl who hires the deputy marshal is put down into a cave by the outlaws and finds herself surrounded by snakes. The incident in the book and movie was based on a real life incident in the 1880s when a woman was thrown into Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair area of the Ouachitas. The outlaws responsible were apprehended, but in order to prove the case against them, the Deputy Marshals out of Fort Smith had to retrieve the remains of the victim. One of the officers was lowered on a rope into the cave, which was described as a crevice and as he was collecting the bones and other evidence realized he was surrounded by rattlesnakes. He opened fire on them and emptied his pistols, yelling at the same time for the other lawmen to pull him up. When he came up out of the cave, he had one snake around his neck and another around his arm which so frightened the men pulling him up that they almost dropped him back down the hole. It is quite a story and apparently is true. All that is known today about the location of the cave is that it is in the Winding Stair area south of Fort Smith. It would be interesting to find. Dale
Re: [Texascavers] Rattlesnake Cave, Oklahoma, and True Grit
There is a fairly long cave on Winding Stair mountain called Bear Den Cave. It has several entrances. And seems like I have heard past stories about a body recovery from the cave in the past. The cave has close to a 1000 feet of passage...although I am not sure it has been mapped. Seems like there is an old survey of it done by Joe Looney. It might be the same cave. Or I suppose it is quite likely that there are other caves in the area. The rock is some type of sandstone. And Bear Den is formed along a fault that runs north/south across the mountain. There is significant air movement through the cave and there is a nice blowing lead at the back. A group from DFWG did a couple of dig trips to follow the air in the early 80sand opened up some more passage. But ran into another constriction with airflow. We suspected that there was likely another entrancebut never found it. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:39 AM, cavera...@aol.com wrote: A journalist and historian friend in Florida (who was with a TV station in Fort Smith for a number of years) has brought to my attention a little mystery about an Oklahoma cave and a major motion picture. Maybe some North Texas cavers know the cave (or crevice or whatever; I don't think there is much in the way of true solutional caves in the Ouachita Mountains, of which I believe the Winding Stairs to be a part). Roger Moore GHG Roger, The publicity about the True Grit remake brought to mind a little mystery that might be of interest to you and your caver friends. Its a little known fact that the Rattlesnake Cave in the movie was actually based on a real Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair Mountain area of eastern Oklahoma. A real-life Deputy U.S. Marshal went down into the cave to retrieve the body of a murder victim and found himself in a nest of rattlesnakes. The cave was well known in the late 1800s, but its location has been lost to modern historians. Any thoughts on it? (Oh, and if you want to read a little about the real Rooster Cogburn, you might enjoy this: www.exploresouthernhistory.com/roostercogburn). There is a scene near the end in which the young girl who hires the deputy marshal is put down into a cave by the outlaws and finds herself surrounded by snakes. The incident in the book and movie was based on a real life incident in the 1880s when a woman was thrown into Rattlesnake Cave somewhere in the Winding Stair area of the Ouachitas. The outlaws responsible were apprehended, but in order to prove the case against them, the Deputy Marshals out of Fort Smith had to retrieve the remains of the victim. One of the officers was lowered on a rope into the cave, which was described as a crevice and as he was collecting the bones and other evidence realized he was surrounded by rattlesnakes. He opened fire on them and emptied his pistols, yelling at the same time for the other lawmen to pull him up. When he came up out of the cave, he had one snake around his neck and another around his arm which so frightened the men pulling him up that they almost dropped him back down the hole. It is quite a story and apparently is true. All that is known today about the location of the cave is that it is in the Winding Stair area south of Fort Smith. It would be interesting to find. Dale
texascavers Digest 10 Dec 2010 15:39:43 -0000 Issue 1207
texascavers Digest 10 Dec 2010 15:39:43 - Issue 1207 Topics (messages 16675 through 16688): Mexico travel tip 16675 by: David New release of TexBib from the TSS : 16676 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com Re: [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais National Monument Closes Caves 16677 by: Diana Tomchick El Mapais National Monument Closes Caves 16678 by: Mixon Bill 16679 by: Andy Gluesenkamp 16680 by: wesley s El Malpais 16681 by: Mixon Bill 16682 by: Andy Gluesenkamp 16683 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com 16684 by: freddie poer 16685 by: Louise Power 16686 by: Andy Gluesenkamp 16687 by: Ron R Rattlesnake Cave, Oklahoma, and True Grit 16688 by: caverarch.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Please ignore this if you have no intentions of travelling to Mexico, or if you have no desire to learn a few Spanish words: The web-site below seems to have the latest info on crime activity in Mexico : http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php/sala-de-prensa/comunicados-de-prensa-de-los-mandos-territoriales http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php/sala-de-prensa/comunicados-de-prensa You will have to know some basic Spanish, especially terms relating to what cartel members get arrested for, and know some of the geography. Click on the blue phrase leer mas, which means read more.For example, this explains the 6 cartel members killed 2 days ago near Reynosa, which didn't seem to make the news here: http://www.sedena.gob.mx/index.php/sala-de-prensa/comunicados-de-prensa-de-los-mandos-territoriales/5228-6-de-diciembre-de-2010-reynosa-tamps Also, note you should not travel with rolls of sheet metal, as the Federales find this suspicious. ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- The Texas Speleological Survey has released the newest update to TexBib, the digital bibliography of Texas speleology. At present, there are over 13,480 references in TexBib dating back to 1866, and over 85,000 searchable keywords. The program's search engine allows you to search on keywords and/or authors, with the resulting reference listing sorted by date and/or author. The TSS library has copies of most of the journals and grotto newsletters listed in the bibliography. If you have a desire to peruse one of the references, contact one of the directors with your request or stop by during one of the TSS's work sessions that are periodically announced on CaveTex. Examples of routinely used keywords in TexBib : cave name, county, biology, geology, TARL ID (Texas Archeological Research Laboratory), bats, salamanders, geology, hydrogeology, geochemistry, archeology, paleokarst, conservation, management, rescue, education, etc TexBib can be downloaded free at the TSS website : _http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/TexBib/Texbib.htm_ (http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/TexBib/Texbib.htm) (http://www.txspeleologicalsurvey.org/) To properly work, TexBib requires that you be running MS Windows with MS Internet Explorer 5 (or above). If you have any questions or comments concerning TexBib, please contact Jerry Atkinson jerryat...@aol.com. For help with program installation, contact David McKenzie david...@austin.rr.com. Jerry Atkinson Texas Speleological Survey---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) Begin forwarded message: From: jennifer bigredfo...@yahoo.com Date: December 8, 2010 2:03:21 PM CST To: nmca...@caver.net, pajar...@lists.snurkle.net Subject: [NMCAVER] Fw: Breaking News - NM's El Malpais National Monument Closes Caves - Forwarded Message From: Peter Youngbaer wnsliai...@caves.org To: Alex Sproul imoca...@comcast.net; Cheryl Jones cs.jo...@verizon.net; Mike Warner m...@speleobooks.com; Jennifer Foote bigredfo...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 11:15:09 AM Subject: Breaking News - NM's El Mapais National Monument Closes Caves Alex, Please post: Here's a link to the official announcement: http://www.nps.gov/elma/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfilePageID=522060 Also, I think you can archive everything prior to 10/27 (the draft national WNS plan announcments). Thanks, Peter ___ NMCAVER mailing list
