[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net To: Karl Wilson wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net; Mike Lorimer mi...@fastwave.biz; Hank Boudinot grnpacav...@gmail.com; Mike Dimatteo mike_dimat...@comcast.net; Bob Rodgers motoca...@gmail.com; Stephanie Regan regan...@nmsu.edu; Justin Peinado tu...@sbcglobal.net; David Winnett david.winn...@yahoo.com; Evelyn Townsend karstpat...@gmail.com; Wayne Walker wcwal...@zianet.com; Robert Wood robw...@wwdb.org; Jackie Horton rambe...@zianet.com; Jeff Bach jbac...@comcast.net; Dave Gose oldgru...@msn.com; John Collins elpasoca...@yahoo.com; Luke Peerman lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; Scott Anderson scottanderso...@yahoo.com; Ashley Smith sarcave...@gmail.com; Mike Bilbo mike_bi...@blm.gov; Kenny Stabinsky nmba...@zianet.com; Lee Wilson lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; Kate Bach katert...@comcast.net; Robert Foster rfos...@nmsu.edu; Margaret Wilson margaretwilso...@gmail.com; Lee Stevens sldstev...@msn.com; Allen Wright siz...@hotmail.com; Grady Viramontes gra...@comcast.net; Cordie Ross cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; Gary Grogg gggr...@hotmail.com; Don Martin dmartin...@gmail.com; Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net; Andy Eby kver...@aol.com; Hadley Robinson hadl...@htg.net; Mike Bilbo (home) mbbi...@yahoo.com; Janice Tucker janice.tuc...@live.com; Jeff Lory jkl...@yahoo.com; Lawrence Foreman lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; Arvel Thomas abthomi...@comcast.net; John Moses johnmo...@excite.com; Larry Foreman forema...@saic.com; Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com; Bill Godby billgo...@gmail.com; Michael McWhirter mikelis...@msn.com; Mailing List for SWR s...@caver.net Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter SITDCP Card 2010.tif On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a thank you for writing reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines there is some evidence (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of no basis. However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
I agree with Jen Foote. We need to be cave conservationists, which means conserving whatever is in the caves. We need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Linda S On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net To: Karl Wilson wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net; Mike Lorimer mi...@fastwave.biz; Hank Boudinot grnpacav...@gmail.com; Mike Dimatteo mike_dimat...@comcast.net; Bob Rodgers motoca...@gmail.com; Stephanie Regan regan...@nmsu.edu; Justin Peinado tu...@sbcglobal.net; David Winnett david.winn...@yahoo.com; Evelyn Townsend karstpat...@gmail.com; Wayne Walker wcwal...@zianet.com; Robert Wood robw...@wwdb.org; Jackie Horton rambe...@zianet.com; Jeff Bach jbac...@comcast.net; Dave Gose oldgru...@msn.com; John Collins elpasoca...@yahoo.com; Luke Peerman lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; Scott Anderson scottanderso...@yahoo.com; Ashley Smith sarcave...@gmail.com; Mike Bilbo mike_bi...@blm.gov; Kenny Stabinsky nmba...@zianet.com; Lee Wilson lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; Kate Bach katert...@comcast.net; Robert Foster rfos...@nmsu.edu; Margaret Wilson margaretwilso...@gmail.com; Lee Stevens sldstev...@msn.com; Allen Wright siz...@hotmail.com; Grady Viramontes gra...@comcast.net; Cordie Ross cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; Gary Grogg gggr...@hotmail.com; Don Martin dmartin...@gmail.com; Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net; Andy Eby kver...@aol.com; Hadley Robinson hadl...@htg.net; Mike Bilbo (home) mbbi...@yahoo.com; Janice Tucker janice.tuc...@live.com; Jeff Lory jkl...@yahoo.com; Lawrence Foreman lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; Arvel Thomas abthomi...@comcast.net; John Moses johnmo...@excite.com; Larry Foreman forema...@saic.com; Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com; Bill Godby billgo...@gmail.com; Michael McWhirter mikelis...@msn.com; Mailing List for SWR s...@caver.net Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter SITDCP Card 2010.tif On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a thank you for writing reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines there is some evidence (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of no basis. However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
I agree with Jen Foote. We need to be cave conservationists, which means conserving whatever is in the caves. We need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Linda S On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net To: Karl Wilson wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net; Mike Lorimer mi...@fastwave.biz; Hank Boudinot grnpacav...@gmail.com; Mike Dimatteo mike_dimat...@comcast.net; Bob Rodgers motoca...@gmail.com; Stephanie Regan regan...@nmsu.edu; Justin Peinado tu...@sbcglobal.net; David Winnett david.winn...@yahoo.com; Evelyn Townsend karstpat...@gmail.com; Wayne Walker wcwal...@zianet.com; Robert Wood robw...@wwdb.org; Jackie Horton rambe...@zianet.com; Jeff Bach jbac...@comcast.net; Dave Gose oldgru...@msn.com; John Collins elpasoca...@yahoo.com; Luke Peerman lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; Scott Anderson scottanderso...@yahoo.com; Ashley Smith sarcave...@gmail.com; Mike Bilbo mike_bi...@blm.gov; Kenny Stabinsky nmba...@zianet.com; Lee Wilson lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; Kate Bach katert...@comcast.net; Robert Foster rfos...@nmsu.edu; Margaret Wilson margaretwilso...@gmail.com; Lee Stevens sldstev...@msn.com; Allen Wright siz...@hotmail.com; Grady Viramontes gra...@comcast.net; Cordie Ross cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; Gary Grogg gggr...@hotmail.com; Don Martin dmartin...@gmail.com; Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net; Andy Eby kver...@aol.com; Hadley Robinson hadl...@htg.net; Mike Bilbo (home) mbbi...@yahoo.com; Janice Tucker janice.tuc...@live.com; Jeff Lory jkl...@yahoo.com; Lawrence Foreman lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; Arvel Thomas abthomi...@comcast.net; John Moses johnmo...@excite.com; Larry Foreman forema...@saic.com; Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com; Bill Godby billgo...@gmail.com; Michael McWhirter mikelis...@msn.com; Mailing List for SWR s...@caver.net Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter SITDCP Card 2010.tif On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a thank you for writing reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines there is some evidence (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of no basis. However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to
