texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 -0000 Issue 1553
texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 - Issue 1553 Topics (messages 20017 through 20019): Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion 20017 by: George Veni 20019 by: Jill Orr Re: looking for caving stuff 20018 by: Bill Bentley Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- Freddie wrote: “It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.” I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI. My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off). As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial “too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit. When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful consideration of the many possible consequences. If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be after June 7th. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04 To: gv...@nckri.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE
texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 -0000 Issue 1553
texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 - Issue 1553 Topics (messages 20017 through 20019): Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion 20017 by: George Veni 20019 by: Jill Orr Re: looking for caving stuff 20018 by: Bill Bentley Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- Freddie wrote: “It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.” I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI. My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off). As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial “too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit. When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful consideration of the many possible consequences. If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be after June 7th. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04 To: gv...@nckri.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE
texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 -0000 Issue 1553
texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 - Issue 1553 Topics (messages 20017 through 20019): Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion 20017 by: George Veni 20019 by: Jill Orr Re: looking for caving stuff 20018 by: Bill Bentley Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- Freddie wrote: “It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.” I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI. My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off). As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial “too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit. When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful consideration of the many possible consequences. If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be after June 7th. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04 To: gv...@nckri.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley wrote: From: Bill Bentley Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: "freddie poer" Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley wrote: From: Bill Bentley Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: "freddie poer" List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley wrote: From: Bill Bentley Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: "freddie poer" List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
[Texascavers] Re: looking for caving stuff
Hi Kathy, It was really good to hear from you, I think we ate lunch together at one of the TSA conventions many years ago or that is what my memory is telling me. I have cc'd this email to the PBSS the Texas and the SWR emailing lists. Tony Grieco is living in Hobbs and was a school teacher for many years after getting laid off from Citi Services back in the 80's. He is now working for an environmental company. He is into riding bikes and doesn't cave any more but, his son Andrew has become quite a caver in his own right. I lost track of Suzy Nolden after she got married to Jim Sigman and maybe Jerry Atkinson can help there as he knew her husband Jim better than me. I did hear they had both retired, sold their home and hit the road traveling. Have you heard from Eleanor Nestlerode? Last I heard she was a Deputy Sheriff in New Mexico near Rio Ranch? or someplace up there. Bill Greenlee is deceased. Pat Kambesis is back East in Kentucky the last I heard and she is on my facebook page as a friend. Are you on facebook? Below is my link.. http://www.facebook.com/caverbill So sorry to hear about Lori I have lots of pictures from the 80's over in the Guads and a few I think of that has Lori in it... It may take a while to find them. Hopefully this email will help you out there. Always, Bill - Original Message - From: schwe...@yahoo.com To: ca...@caver.net Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:27 PM Subject: looking for caving stuff Hi Bill, How are you? I am Kathy Schwehr, PBSS member of a while ago when Tony Grieco, Suzy Noldan, Bill Greenlee, Pat Kambesis and more were in the Grotto. Lori Vian died in Mar of brain cancer and I am looking for memorbelia for her family and for myself, I guess. Would love any pics you have of us and pics of caves we were in in NM. Also would like cave maps or pics of others in the group. If you have any, would be very grateful. Would also like to know how to get ahold of Suzy and Jim or Pls contact them and give them my email. Would really appreciate this. Thanks, Kathy
[Texascavers] Re: looking for caving stuff
Hi Kathy, It was really good to hear from you, I think we ate lunch together at one of the TSA conventions many years ago or that is what my memory is telling me. I have cc'd this email to the PBSS the Texas and the SWR emailing lists. Tony Grieco is living in Hobbs and was a school teacher for many years after getting laid off from Citi Services back in the 80's. He is now working for an environmental company. He is into riding bikes and doesn't cave any more but, his son Andrew has become quite a caver in his own right. I lost track of Suzy Nolden after she got married to Jim Sigman and maybe Jerry Atkinson can help there as he knew her husband Jim better than me. I did hear they had both retired, sold their home and hit the road traveling. Have you heard from Eleanor Nestlerode? Last I heard she was a Deputy Sheriff in New Mexico near Rio Ranch? or someplace up there. Bill Greenlee is deceased. Pat Kambesis is back East in Kentucky the last I heard and she is on my facebook page as a friend. Are you on facebook? Below is my link.. http://www.facebook.com/caverbill So sorry to hear about Lori I have lots of pictures from the 80's over in the Guads and a few I think of that has Lori in it... It may take a while to find them. Hopefully this email will help you out there. Always, Bill - Original Message - From: schwe...@yahoo.com To: ca...@caver.net Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:27 PM Subject: looking for caving stuff Hi Bill, How are you? I am Kathy Schwehr, PBSS member of a while ago when Tony Grieco, Suzy Noldan, Bill Greenlee, Pat Kambesis and more were in the Grotto. Lori Vian died in Mar of brain cancer and I am looking for memorbelia for her family and for myself, I guess. Would love any pics you have of us and pics of caves we were in in NM. Also would like cave maps or pics of others in the group. If you have any, would be very grateful. Would also like to know how to get ahold of Suzy and Jim or Pls contact them and give them my email. Would really appreciate this. Thanks, Kathy
[Texascavers] Re: looking for caving stuff
Hi Kathy, It was really good to hear from you, I think we ate lunch together at one of the TSA conventions many years ago or that is what my memory is telling me. I have cc'd this email to the PBSS the Texas and the SWR emailing lists. Tony Grieco is living in Hobbs and was a school teacher for many years after getting laid off from Citi Services back in the 80's. He is now working for an environmental company. He is into riding bikes and doesn't cave any more but, his son Andrew has become quite a caver in his own right. I lost track of Suzy Nolden after she got married to Jim Sigman and maybe Jerry Atkinson can help there as he knew her husband Jim better than me. I did hear they had both retired, sold their home and hit the road traveling. Have you heard from Eleanor Nestlerode? Last I heard she was a Deputy Sheriff in New Mexico near Rio Ranch? or someplace up there. Bill Greenlee is deceased. Pat Kambesis is back East in Kentucky the last I heard and she is on my facebook page as a friend. Are you on facebook? Below is my link.. http://www.facebook.com/caverbill So sorry to hear about Lori I have lots of pictures from the 80's over in the Guads and a few I think of that has Lori in it... It may take a while to find them. Hopefully this email will help you out there. Always, Bill - Original Message - From: schwe...@yahoo.com To: ca...@caver.net Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:27 PM Subject: looking for caving stuff Hi Bill, How are you? I am Kathy Schwehr, PBSS member of a while ago when Tony Grieco, Suzy Noldan, Bill Greenlee, Pat Kambesis and more were in the Grotto. Lori Vian died in Mar of brain cancer and I am looking for memorbelia for her family and for myself, I guess. Would love any pics you have of us and pics of caves we were in in NM. Also would like cave maps or pics of others in the group. If you have any, would be very grateful. Would also like to know how to get ahold of Suzy and Jim or Pls contact them and give them my email. Would really appreciate this. Thanks, Kathy
