Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA
This is clearly an emotional time but as an honorary member of the SWR I am a bit disappointed that cavers are descending to the level of disrespect and misinformation that we feel agencies have been giving to us. There is no MOU stating that agencies have to take the advice of cavers when it comes to how they manage their caves. Personally, I'm pretty happy that NM has had only targeted closures and that those of us who can clean our clothes have been able to explore about 10+ miles of virgin cave in a hibernacula. Even Aaron's friend who is ready to give up on caving in NM is on the proposal for the next expedition. We might be mad, we might be right, but we shouldn't be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Wasting the BLM's time by using the CBDs tactics isn't going to get recreational caving into those 28 caves any faster. Jen. Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 20:40:33 -0600 From: casto...@gmail.com To: diamond...@pvtnetworks.net; power_lou...@hotmail.com; s...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA Exactly. On 05/23/2014 19:34, Lynda James Sánchez wrote: I would think that as long as a letter is respectful and concerned it will make a difference if dozens or hundreds show up. If done in this way it should not be considered unprofessional and bordering on bullying.It is a citizen’s right to speak out and should not be taken personally. Mostly these folks do not like to read them, as it makes more work for them, however, that is part of their job and we pay their salaries. It is the beauty of this country, or should be anyway. Heartfelt comments should not be feared but may even provide an opportunity for these officials to point out to their bosses the pending situation, problems and/or possible solutions. Lynda From: Louise Power Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 3:34 PM To: Stephen Fleming ; NM Caver List ; texas cavers Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron Stockton, Cave Specialist at the Carlsbad Field Office. He was very nice and told me that many of the closed caves are being considered for reopening. He also told me that about ten of the caves that were closed were already under a closure order; that any gated cave requires a closure order, especially a cave like Ft. Stanton Cave, which is a hibernaculum for a special status species. He also said that many of the closed caves are being managed under cooperative management and cost share agreements. He said that the district gave the Ft. Stanton study group (don't know what their official name is) $100,000 this year to help with their studies. I found him helpful and nice and informative. He also agreed with me that inundating the State Director with emails is no way to get him on their side. This issue is already on his radar. As you well know, we feds operate at a snails pace in the best of times. Venting one's spleen on a federal official doesn't make them faster or more cooperative. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] Deep Cave Survey Report - May 17, 2014
Saturday, May 17 was the 10th Deep Cave survey trip since the project resumed in 2011. It was also Don Arburn's birthday and we were joined on this trip by Jenni Arburn who baked cupcakes for everyone and Allan Cobb who was generous enough to cook all of our meals for us. Thanks! As with the previous trip in February, six teams were fielded in the cave. Teams were scattered through the cave following up on leads and unfinished work from previous trips. Geary Schindel, Aaron Wertheim, and Vicky DeLeon, continued work on the Tourist Route resurvey from the Hall of Masks up toward the Entrance Room. In the process, they discovered a previously undocumented side passage off of the Swiss Cheese Corridor and added it to the survey for 5 shots and a total of 19.9 m. Don Arburn, Steve Gutting, and Gary Dunham continued to survey the lower part of the Tourist Route survey through the Corkscrew to the Helictite Room. Though difficult and with a lot of high angle shots, they surveyed 9 stations for 37.5 m, completing the route. Marvin Miller, Gerry Geletske, and Chris Lafferty worked on Miller Time Room leads. The started with a detailed check of the west wall. Chris found a hammer lead that appears to get larger after 3 m and he worked on it for a while. Then, they started the survey finding a nice room that was 6 m long by 5 m wide. The ceiling is one continuous slab of flat rock at an angle of 40 degrees. A lead from the room connected back to R9 from a previous survey trip. Reviewing the R survey notes, they saw that two leads were marked north of R9. These were checked and found to lead to a room named The Brewery. Afterwards, Chris worked on his hammer lead some more and Marvin took some photos. On the way out, they noted a lot of vent holes going down. Although some lead back to the Miller Time room, others did not and have never been checked. Through one hole you can see down at least 6 m and will be good leads for a future trip. Marvin's team surveyed a total of 23 shots for 71.9 m. In the central parts of the cave, Bennett Lee, Pam Campbell, Joe Schaertl, and Drew Thompson were making an attempt to fill in the long hole that still exists down the middle of the cave, which is only traversed by one known route. Starting in the lower part of Bear Scratch Hall, they scouted multiple leads, many of which terminated. Eventually they found one that went, connecting across the hole to the Square Ceiling Room. A lead off of this route was then followed and found to make an even shorter, almost straight line connection to the Square Ceiling Room. This may now be the easiest route to the back parts of the cave, although there is still quite a bit of crawling and squeezing to get through this area. Other leads heading in other directions were checked and found to either end or connect to different portions of the N survey and remain to be surveyed. The team chalked up 12 shots for a total of 34.6 m. Ellie Watson, Galen Falgout, and Tom Rogers as Team Skins tackled the area near the Nutcracker Chimney which had some leads that Galen wanted to follow up on. After squeezing down a slanting, tight lead, they surveyed through areas totally coated in coral and aragonite. The rooms were well decorated with dripping formations and one room had a mud floor. Their survey extended a long distance, eventually approaching two other surveys near the Crooked Broomstick Room, but not quite connecting. They surveyed 26 shots for 83.3 m. Also at the west end of the cave, Joe Mitchell, Jim Kennedy, and Linda Palit had the objective of following up on several leads to try to relocate the last un-found section of the cave from the 1965 map. We brought Jim along to make him jealous of all the cool stuff we are finding in Deep! :-) At our starting point, as we were trying to decide which of the two leads to follow first, we heard voices and we saw Galen in one of the leads. That killed our first option so we followed the other route down into a couple of rooms that eventually led a complex maze area with multiple small routes. The upgoing route came into a junction room with 6 leads going off. Two didn't go, but the one heading westward and down came into a larger room which was well decorated with active formations. After comparing notes with the 1965 map, we concluded that this was the Broomstick Room at the far western edge of the map, though the “Broomsticks” were sized more for midgets. Behind this room, we followed a downsloping route which continued to be well decorated until reaching a spot where Linda found “DE 1965” etched in the mud. This was apparently the end of the original exploration of the cave and completed the rediscovery of the lost routes. However, a small lead with airflow was found that appeared to go to a room, but since a bit of enlargement would be needed, we left it for a future trip. Back in the junction room, one of the other leads led up to a
[Texascavers] RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Of course, anyone who has worked on these sort of federal issues also knows that sometimes the agencies need counteracting pressures, like a FOIA request, to let them do the right thing. Way to go, SWR! Reasonable federal officials (and most are reasonable, well-meaning people) will not see a FOIA request as a confrontation action..just citizens exercising their rights. Louise D. Hose 713-816-5259 From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:50 PM To: Ken Harrington; Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers; texas cavers Subject: RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Just remember what your mama told you, You can get more flies with honey than vinegar. Be nice. BLM employees are people, too. You probably have no idea the problems they have to cope with. Irate cavers, like irate ranchers, not being the least of these.
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Steve: Many thanks for the additional information of the SWR FOIA to the BLM, I support whole heartily. See you in the Black Range. Sam Bono On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net wrote: All, On Tuesday, May 20, 2014, our SWR Vice-Chair, Jim Evatt notified the membership in the SWR, through the SWR mailing list, that a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request had been filed by the SWR for information related to the BLM's management of the threat of White Nose Syndrome (WNS). This act, arguably the most significant act taken by the SWR for a generation, is the result of a string of events over the last several years. I want to give the membership some of the background that led up to this request. As most everyone knows, WNS is a debilitating condition that has affected hibernating bats, primarily in the eastern United States and Canada, causing very high mortality rates in the bat colonies from the fungus that causes it. *(P. destructans).* The first evidence of WNS came from Howe Caverns, a commercial cave in New York, in 2007.An initial thought was that perhaps a caver from Europe possibly brought this fungus to the United States by visiting the cave with clothes that were contaminated with the fungus. As more and more evidence accumulated of the devastating effects of WNS to bats, the US Fish and Wlldlife Service developed guidelines for the various cave management agencies to use regarding the potential spread of WNS. These guidelines included recommendations to close caves and abandoned mines to human entry because of the possibility that humans may be a significant vector to the transmission of the condition. In January of 2011, the NM BLM published a Federal Register Notice of Temporary Closure of 28 caves in New Mexico known to have significant bat populations, probably as a direct result of a report of an infected bat in the neighboring state of Oklahoma. That Temporary Closure was for 2 years only and expired in January of 2013. At the 2012 Winter Tech, Ms. Marikay Ramsey (BLM bat biologist) announced the intent of the BLM to renew the closure. In January of 2013, at a special meeting in Albuquerque, Jim Goodbar, National BLM Cave Program lead, again discussed that intent, and also mentioned that 3 of the caves previously closed would be re-opened. The BLM revealed that it was delegating the management of caving activities under the threat of WNS to a state-wide Cave Management Team. Cavers waited for the announcement that the Temporary Closure was being renewed, or that a new Temporary Closure was being instituted. This didn't happen (and hasn't happened to date). Instead, the BLM merely said that the caves are closed. Cavers inquiring about the closure were told that BLM didn't need to have a Federal Register Temporary Closure because the cave specialists could merely refuse to issue permits. This management plan, if it can be called that, for the BLM caves that were previously closed by Federal Register Notice persisted for another year, as cavers became increasingly dissatisfied with how the caves were being managed. Meanwhile more research was being done on WNS; research that demonstrated that bats were very good at transmitting WNS from one to another, but that humans ere not very good at spreading the fungus. In fact, we know of no credible evidence that WNS has been spread from one cave to another by humans. At the spring SWR regional on April 12, 2014 there was a significant discussion of the BLM's continuing stand that they could close the caves by just saying they are closed and what to do about it. One idea was to ask for permits for some of the closed caves in order to bring the issue to the forefront. This was done by several folks, including Dave Belski and Stephen Fleming, who both requested recreational permits to Fort Stanton Cave. Both were denied. On May 6, 2014 the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation announced that the previous report of a WNS bat in Oklahoma was a false report, and that no WNS infected bats had been detected in New Mexico. On May 9, BLM's Chief of Communications issued this statement to the SWR mailing list: *BLM New Mexico White-Nose Syndrome Closure Strategy Update* *May 2014* BLM New Mexico is evaluating the new information released by the National Wildlife Health Center about the Woodward County, Oklahoma bat originally tested in 2010 being now reclassified as negative for*Pseudogymnoascus (*formerly *Geomyces) destructans *and White-nose syndrome (WNS). At this time, we are sustaining our WNS cave and abandoned mine closure strategy. The BLM’s team of biologists, cave specialists, and managers will work internally, as well as with our NM interagency partners, to consider the new Oklahoma findings. The BLM is the responsible party for managing hundreds of New Mexico caves and abandoned mines and their
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Sam, While notes of agreement with the FOIA request are nice what we really need is for you and others to write e-mails to Jesse Juen at jj...@blm.gov and express your support for release of the information requested and the opening of the caves by issuing permits. Those writing in support of the FOIA on the SWR net should be aware that the SWR postings are read by BLM and other government agency personnel and we should refrain from any personal attacks on individuals. Just write a simple e-mail requesting the re-opening of the caves and the issuing of permits to visit the caves. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 12:03:04 -0600 From: 2924ef...@gmail.com To: gypca...@comcast.net CC: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Steve: Many thanks for the additional information of the SWR FOIA to the BLM,I support whole heartily. See you in the Black Range. Sam Bono On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net wrote: All,On Tuesday, May 20, 2014, our SWR Vice-Chair, Jim Evatt notified the membership in the SWR, through the SWR mailing list, that a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request had been filed by the SWR for information related to the BLM's management of the threat of White Nose Syndrome (WNS). This act, arguably the most significant act taken by the SWR for a generation, is the result of a string of events over the last several years. I want to give the membership some of the background that led up to this request. As most everyone knows, WNS is a debilitating condition that has affected hibernating bats, primarily in the eastern United States and Canada, causing very high mortality rates in the bat colonies from the fungus that causes it. (P. destructans). The first evidence of WNS came from Howe Caverns, a commercial cave in New York, in 2007.An initial thought was that perhaps a caver from Europe possibly brought this fungus to the United States by visiting the cave with clothes that were contaminated with the fungus. As more and more evidence accumulated of the devastating effects of WNS to bats, the US Fish and Wlldlife Service developed guidelines for the various cave management agencies to use regarding the potential spread of WNS. These guidelines included recommendations to close caves and abandoned mines to human entry because of the possibility that humans may be a significant vector to the transmission of the condition. In January of 2011, the NM BLM published a Federal Register Notice of Temporary Closure of 28 caves in New Mexico known to have significant bat populations, probably as a direct result of a report of an infected bat in the neighboring state of Oklahoma. That Temporary Closure was for 2 years only and expired in January of 2013. At the 2012 Winter Tech, Ms. Marikay Ramsey (BLM bat biologist) announced the intent of the BLM to renew the closure. In January of 2013, at a special meeting in Albuquerque, Jim Goodbar, National BLM Cave Program lead, again discussed that intent, and also mentioned that 3 of the caves previously closed would be re-opened. The BLM revealed that it was delegating the management of caving activities under the threat of WNS to a state-wide Cave Management Team. Cavers waited for the announcement that the Temporary Closure was being renewed, or that a new Temporary Closure was being instituted. This didn't happen (and hasn't happened to date). Instead, the BLM merely said that the caves are closed. Cavers inquiring about the closure were told that BLM didn't need to have a Federal Register Temporary Closure because the cave specialists could merely refuse to issue permits. This management plan, if it can be called that, for the BLM caves that were previously closed by Federal Register Notice persisted for another year, as cavers became increasingly dissatisfied with how the caves were being managed. Meanwhile more research was being done on WNS; research that demonstrated that bats were very good at transmitting WNS from one to another, but that humans ere not very good at spreading the fungus. In fact, we know of no credible evidence that WNS has been spread from one cave to another by humans. At the spring SWR regional on April 12, 2014 there was a significant discussion of the BLM's continuing stand that they could close the caves by just saying they are closed and what to do about it. One idea was to ask for permits for some of the closed caves in order to bring the issue to the forefront. This was done by several folks, including Dave Belski and Stephen Fleming, who both requested recreational permits to Fort Stanton Cave. Both were denied. On May 6, 2014 the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation announced that the previous report of a WNS bat in Oklahoma was a false
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
It is always a juggling act between trying to get some things done and trying to maintain a constructive working relationship with, in this case, BLM. Was BLM informed that the board of the SWR was considering a request for information under the FOIA? Or did it just fall from the sky on the desk of whomever? FOIA provides leverage for those wanting to force disclosure, but if used out of the blue can create the appearance of an adversarial relationship, which defines subsequent interactions and may not always be in ones' best long term interests. It's a little like a trump card that only has value before it's played. The card of last resort, as it were, and that is said by one who hesitates not to write critical letters to the highest levels, and with some guarded success. Michael Queen On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:58 PM, dave belski bel...@valornet.com wrote: On 5/23/2014 12:25 PM, Ken Harrington wrote: Sam, While notes of agreement with the FOIA request are nice what we really need is for you and others to write e-mails to Jesse Juen at jjuen@blm.govand express your support for release of the information requested and the opening of the caves by issuing permits. Those writing in support of the FOIA on the SWR net should be aware that the SWR postings are read by BLM and other government agency personnel and we should refrain from any personal attacks on individuals. Just write a simple e-mail requesting the re-opening of the caves and the issuing of permits to visit the caves. Ken *AMEN. The one fact I have found out in my many years in the military, if you want to have pressure come down the chain of command, start at the top. It very rarely goes the other way.* ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
I would think that as long as a letter is respectful and concerned it will make a difference if dozens or hundreds show up. If done in this way it should not be considered unprofessional and bordering on bullying.It is a citizen’s right to speak out and should not be taken personally. Mostly these folks do not like to read them, as it makes more work for them, however, that is part of their job and we pay their salaries. It is the beauty of this country, or should be anyway. Heartfelt comments should not be feared but may even provide an opportunity for these officials to point out to their bosses the pending situation, problems and/or possible solutions. Lynda From: Louise Power Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 3:33 PM To: Ken Harrington ; Sam Bono ; Steve Peerman Cc: SWR Cavers Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Believe me when I say, flooding the State Director's email box will be of no benefit. It's unprofessional and borders on bullying. I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron Stockton, Cave Specialist at the Carlsbad Field Office. He was very nice and told me that many of the closed caves are being considered for reopening. He also told me that about ten of the caves that were closed were already under a closure order; that any gated cave requires a closure order, especially a cave like Ft. Stanton Cave, which is a hibernaculum for a special status species. He also said that many of the closed caves are being managed under cooperative management and cost share agreements. He said that the district gave the Ft. Stanton study group (don't know what their official name is) $100,000 this year to help with their studies. I found him helpful and nice and informative. He also agreed with me that inundating the State Director with emails is no way to get him on their side. This issue is already on his radar. As you well know, we feds operate at a snails pace in the best of times. Venting one's spleen on a federal official doesn't make them faster or more cooperative. Louise From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: 2924ef...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 12:25:18 -0600 CC: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Sam, While notes of agreement with the FOIA request are nice what we really need is for you and others to write e-mails to Jesse Juen at jj...@blm.gov and express your support for release of the information requested and the opening of the caves by issuing permits. Those writing in support of the FOIA on the SWR net should be aware that the SWR postings are read by BLM and other government agency personnel and we should refrain from any personal attacks on individuals. Just write a simple e-mail requesting the re-opening of the caves and the issuing of permits to visit the caves. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 12:03:04 -0600 From: 2924ef...@gmail.com To: gypca...@comcast.net CC: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Steve: Many thanks for the additional information of the SWR FOIA to the BLM, I support whole heartily. See you in the Black Range. Sam Bono On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net wrote: All, On Tuesday, May 20, 2014, our SWR Vice-Chair, Jim Evatt notified the membership in the SWR, through the SWR mailing list, that a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request had been filed by the SWR for information related to the BLM's management of the threat of White Nose Syndrome (WNS). This act, arguably the most significant act taken by the SWR for a generation, is the result of a string of events over the last several years. I want to give the membership some of the background that led up to this request. As most everyone knows, WNS is a debilitating condition that has affected hibernating bats, primarily in the eastern United States and Canada, causing very high mortality rates in the bat colonies from the fungus that causes it. (P. destructans). The first evidence of WNS came from Howe Caverns, a commercial cave in New York, in 2007.An initial thought was that perhaps a caver from Europe possibly brought this fungus to the United States by visiting the cave with clothes that were contaminated with the fungus. As more and more evidence accumulated of the devastating effects of WNS to bats, the US Fish and Wlldlife Service developed guidelines for the various cave management agencies to use regarding the potential spread of WNS. These guidelines included recommendations to close caves and abandoned mines to human entry because of the possibility that humans may be a significant vector to the transmission of the condition.
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.comwrote: Believe me when I say, flooding the State Director's email box will be of no benefit. It's unprofessional and borders on bullying. I am sorry that the Mr. Juen would be so inconvenienced by executing the duties so entrusted him by the Bureau. CBD has an army of lawyers fighting the equivalent of a holy war on on anything and everything that they view as an easy victory. We need to stop worrying about rocking the boat and take concrete action to bring this closure to an end. I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron Stockton, Cave Specialist at the Carlsbad Field Office. He was very nice and told me that many of the closed caves are being considered for reopening. He also told me that about ten of the caves that were closed were already under a closure order; that any gated cave requires a closure order, especially a cave like Ft. Stanton Cave... The closure order in and of itself is the central theme. Caving goes beyond studies and scientific research. While the FSCSP is created with good intentions, if organized study groups are the only way to see these caves, then the situation is simply unacceptable. I found him helpful and nice and informative. He also agreed with me that inundating the State Director with emails is no way to get him on their side. This issue is already on his radar. As you well know, we feds operate at a snails pace in the best of times. Venting one's spleen on a federal official doesn't make them faster or more cooperative. Irrelevant to the issue at hand. Nobody was asked to bully a director; merely raise the issue. Feds work at a snails pace when they are inclined to ignore problems, and act irrationally and far too quickly when they perceive a threat to their politics and posture. Do not hide behind these excuses and lies. -Jeff Bach- ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
