date:20140725

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Today's Topics:

   1. GPS recommendation? (Frank Binney via Texascavers)
   2. Re: GPS recommendation? (via Texascavers)
   3. Re: GPS recommendation? (via Texascavers)
   4. Re: GPS recommendation? (George D. Nincehelser via Texascavers)
   5. Re: GPS recommendation? (John Greer via Texascavers)

--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:30:22 -0700
From: Frank Binney via Texascavers 
To: Texas Cavers 
Subject: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I¹ve decided it¹s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand
better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:55:40 -0600
From: via Texascavers 
To: "Frank Binney" ,
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?
Message-ID:
<4ed38686550f247752571591e3a33991.squir...@emailmg.ipower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Frank -- We've used at least a couple of dozen models all over the
world (and still use 4 different ones every day), and my favorite is still
the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx (color). I certainly like it better than all
the new stuff. Mavis prefers the Rino 655t, for the radio, and I still
prefer the Rino 530HCx for radio and general tracking. We've tried other
brands (from low to high end), but for my money nothing comes close to
Garmin for ease of use and accuracy. 
John Greer

On
Fri, July 25, 2014 2:30 pm, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:
I¹ve
decided it¹s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or
brand
better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank

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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 19:06:00 -0600
From: via Texascavers 
To: "jgr...@greerservices.com" ,
"texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Cc: "texascavers@texascavers.com" 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I agree with John, Garmin is great for price, ease of use, and accuracy.

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2014, at 6:55 PM, via Texascavers  
wrote:

> Frank -- We've used at least a couple of dozen models all over the world (and 
> still use 4 different ones every day), and my favorite is still the Garmin 
> eTrex Vista HCx (color). I certainly like it better than all the new stuff. 
> Mavis prefers the Rino 655t, for the radio, and I still prefer the Rino 
> 530HCx for radio and general tracking. We've tried other brands (from low to 
> high end), but for my money nothing comes close to Garmin for ease of use and 
> accuracy. 
> 
> John Greer
> 
> On Fri, July 25, 2014 2:30 pm, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:
> 
> I¹ve decided it¹s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
> generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
> caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand
> better for use in Mexico?
> Thanks,
> Frank
> 
> ___
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> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cavetex
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 20:19:08 -0500
From: "George D. Nincehelser via Texascavers"

To: Frank Binney , TexasCavers

Subject: Re: [

Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

2014-07-25 Thread John Greer via Texascavers

George -- You can still purchase the eTrex Vista HCx (new ones). 

  - Original Message - 
  From: George D. Nincehelser via Texascavers 
  To: Frank Binney ; TexasCavers 
  Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 7:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

  I've owned many GPS units.  I think my all-time favorite was the original 
grey Garmin eTrex Vista.  Unfortunately I broke it during a trip to China.

  Lately I've using a Garmin Oregon.  It's a few years old now.  I'm not 
terribly impressed with the color and touch display.  It always seems washed 
out in daylight and I keep having to re-calibrate the screen.

  I can't think of any particular reason to prefer one GPS brand or another in 
Mexico.  I guess the deciding factor might be the quality and detail of any 
built-in maps for the areas you plan to be in.

  On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Frank Binney via Texascavers 
 wrote:

I’ve decided it’s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS 
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a caver/backpacker/river 
runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank

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Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

2014-07-25 Thread George D. Nincehelser via Texascavers

I've owned many GPS units.  I think my all-time favorite was the original
grey Garmin eTrex Vista.  Unfortunately I broke it during a trip to China.

Lately I've using a Garmin Oregon.  It's a few years old now.  I'm not
terribly impressed with the color and touch display.  It always seems
washed out in daylight and I keep having to re-calibrate the screen.

I can't think of any particular reason to prefer one GPS brand or another
in Mexico.  I guess the deciding factor might be the quality and detail of
any built-in maps for the areas you plan to be in.

On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Frank Binney via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I’ve decided it’s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
> generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
> caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand
> better for use in Mexico?
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
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>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

I agree with John, Garmin is great for price, ease of use, and accuracy.

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2014, at 6:55 PM, via Texascavers  
wrote:

> Frank -- We've used at least a couple of dozen models all over the world (and 
> still use 4 different ones every day), and my favorite is still the Garmin 
> eTrex Vista HCx (color). I certainly like it better than all the new stuff. 
> Mavis prefers the Rino 655t, for the radio, and I still prefer the Rino 
> 530HCx for radio and general tracking. We've tried other brands (from low to 
> high end), but for my money nothing comes close to Garmin for ease of use and 
> accuracy. 
> 
> John Greer
> 
> On Fri, July 25, 2014 2:30 pm, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:
> 
> I¹ve decided it¹s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
> generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
> caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand
> better for use in Mexico?
> Thanks,
> Frank
> 
> ___
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> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cavetex
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?




Frank -- We've used at least a couple of dozen models all over the
world (and still use 4 different ones every day), and my favorite is still
the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx (color). I certainly like it better than all
the new stuff. Mavis prefers the Rino 655t, for the radio, and I still
prefer the Rino 530HCx for radio and general tracking. We've tried other
brands (from low to high end), but for my money nothing comes close to
Garmin for ease of use and accuracy. 
John Greer

On
Fri, July 25, 2014 2:30 pm, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:
Iï¿½ve
decided itï¿½s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or
brand
better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank



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Re: [SWR] More on Radon

2014-07-25 Thread jtml

There are many international papers and scientific studies on this 
subject of Radon and caves; two
of the more applicable to Carlsbad Cavern are shown below. I remember 
seeing an early SW Caver issue that

was from a masters thesis on Radon daughters and their origins.

Watkins and Wilkening 1976 report, "Air exchange and 222Rn 
concentrations in the Carlsbad Caverns" in Health Phys. 31, 139–145.
(There was a comparable study of Radon measurements in Mammoth Cave, for 
worker exposure, in Health Physics)


Cheng, Chen, Wasiolek and Van Engen, "Radon and Radon Progeny in the
Carlsbad Caverns" in Aerosol Science and Technology, 26:74-92 (1997), 
abstract is here:


ABSTRACT. Measurements were made in July 1994 to determine air exchange
rate, aerosol characteristics, radon concentrations, and radon progeny 
activity size
distributions in the Carlsbad Caverns. The measured radon concentrations 
were
stable at a level of 1821 + 55 Bq m ' (mean f SD). Using a SF, trace gas 
method,
it was determined that stagnant air in the Caverns was exchanged once 
every 18
days. 'The stagnant air was a key factor in maintaining stable 
environmental
conditions and radon concentration. The low air exchange and few aerosol 
sources
inside the Caverns also contributed to the low aerosol concentrations of 
between
200 and 400 cm ' orders of magnitude lower than mining, indoor, and 
outdoor
environments. The alpha spectrum showed radon progeny but no thoron 
progeny,
which may be a result of the long transport time for radioactive gases 
to diffuse
from the deep rock to the cave. The activity size distribution of radon 
progeny
showed typical bimodal distributions with higher unattached fractions 
16999% for
"'Po and 2 5~5 9%fo r potential alpha energy concentration (PAEC)l than 
other
natural environments. The high unattached fraction was attributed to the 
extremely
low aerosol concentration. The total PAEC was 4.36 x 1 0 % 0.51 x l o 6 
J m '
(mean + SD). Considering the seasonal variation in radon concentration, 
the estimated

cumulative exposure of 1.65 working level months (WLMs) for a worker
spending 2000 h in the Carlsbad Caverns with the observed radon 
concentration
seems high, but it is still below the recommended occupational exposure 
limit for
underground uranium miners. However. because of the higher unattached 
fraction
found in the Caverns, calculated doses are much higher than would be 
expected in a

uranium mine under the same WLMs and may exceed the recommended annual
dose limits for uranium miners.

On 2014-07-25 14:17, Ormsby, Matthew A wrote:

Because people seem to be interested in this topic I've included a
few pictures followed by a copy and paste from the EPA's page on lung
cancer incidence and Radon exposure in homes, but cancer is
indiscriminate so if your exposure comes from the office, your


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Texascavers Digest, Vol 1, Issue 21

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Today's Topics:

   1. Regarding Rod Goke (David via Texascavers)
   2. Daughters of Radon (via Texascavers)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 00:12:15 -0500
From: David via Texascavers 
To: CaveTex 
Subject: [Texascavers] Regarding Rod Goke
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Today, Linkedin.com reminded me once again to connect with
Rod Goke.

For those of you who knew him well, I thought I would share this link with
you. It lets you leave messages for deceased loved ones, add to their
obituary, etc.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=79953491

It is hard to imagine our lives being summed up into a short paragraph.


--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 20:07:18 + (UTC)
From: via Texascavers 
To: Cave NM , Cave Texas 
Cc: Karen Lindsley , "DAVIS, DONALD G."
, power_lou...@hotmail.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Daughters of Radon
Message-ID:
<1001335983.27774900.1406318838446.javamail.r...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Daughters of Radon - following the Natural Trap thread 


The monitoring in Carlsbad started around 1975 or 1976. The discovery of high 
levels of radon in Carlsbad Caverns caught all the federal cave management 
folks off guard. The "Daughters of Radon" concern resulted in the first ever 
Cave Management Symposium in Albuquerque (October 1975). This was arranged by 
the Cave Research Foundation and the National Park Service to provide federal 
managers - Park Service, BLM, and Forest Service with guidance. For the first 
time on a national level federal resource managers became aware that caves 
really needed managing, and that cavers were a significant source for useful 
information. 

The initial concern was for the federal employees who spent the majority of 
their time underground. 

This meeting happened to coincide with the first real Balloon Fiesta in 
Albuquerque. Sandy and I drove up from Alpine, Texas. Our kids were both small 
and were tremulously impressed with the "flying dragons" roaring fire in the 
sky over our heads. So were most of the symposium attendees. I remember Pete 
and Karen Lindsley, Will White, Jack Hess, and all the CRF leadership present. 

DirtDoc 




- Original Message -

When I worked there in 1970-71, I 
don't recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started. During the 
winter, a draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the 
entrance, moves down along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the 
lower part of the Big Room, then warms and recirculates back outside along 
the ceiling. I would expect radon levels to be very low along the tour 
route while that cold-trap circulation is going on. Did the people doing 
the monitoring say how significant were the levels they found? 

--Donald 
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Texascavers Digest, Vol 1, Issue 20

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave
  (Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers)
   2. Forwarded from Carl Paganoca (Bill Bentley via Texascavers)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:33:28 -0600
From: "Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers" 
To: Alex Sproul 
Cc: s...@caver.net, texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap
Cave
Message-ID: <53d13558.5030...@thuntek.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

Alex,

> Lee, what do you know of the recent history of Natural Trap?
>
> I visited Armpit in 1974. The grate was in place, but one could get 
> the key from the BLM office in Cody. I bounced Natural Trap, in the 
> company of Barry Fuller, the unofficial 'mayor' of Armpit. (Anybody 
> know what became of him?) We also visited  Horsethief and Bighorn and 
> I got some fantastic photos. Was access to Natural Trap denied at some 
> point after that, and until now?
>
> Alex Sproul

I was at the NSS convention in Lovell, Wyoming, but only visited a cave 
high on a hill near Cody that had some interesting biological mats, and 
Horsethief-Bighorn, but not Natural Trap, and don't know much about 
recent history other than what was in the article. The Fox News and MSN 
News (Thanks, Louise)  articles state that the cave has been closed for 
the last 30 years.

Regards,
Lee
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:04:47 -0500
From: Bill Bentley via Texascavers 
To: "s...@caver.net" , Cave Texas

Subject: [Texascavers] Forwarded from Carl Paganoca
Message-ID: <53d13caf.3040...@caver.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Subject:
Natural Trap Cave, Wyoming
From:
Carl Pagano 
Date:
7/24/2014 8:17 AM

To:
swr-boun...@caver.net


Great article. Carl


  Wyoming cave with fossil secrets to be excavated

Associated Press 
1 hour ago

  * 

  * 

  * 

  * 


  *


  *



  *




In an image provided by the Bureau

[Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

2014-07-25 Thread Frank Binney via Texascavers

I¹ve decided it¹s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a
caver/backpacker/river runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand
better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank


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[Texascavers] Regarding Rod Goke

2014-07-25 Thread David via Texascavers

Today, Linkedin.com reminded me once again to connect with
Rod Goke.

For those of you who knew him well, I thought I would share this link with
you. It lets you leave messages for deceased loved ones, add to their
obituary, etc.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=79953491

It is hard to imagine our lives being summed up into a short paragraph.
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Texascavers Digest, Vol 1, Issue 19

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Today's Topics:

   1. Nice interview with Penny Boston : (Jerry)
   2. BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave (Lee H. Skinner)
   3. Mailing list change (Charles Goldsmith)
   4. Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave (Alex Sproul)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 03:29:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jerry 
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com, s...@caver.net
Subject: [Texascavers] Nice interview with Penny Boston :
Message-ID: <8d1752812c2865e-3188-22...@webmail-d260.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/life-on-subsurface-interview-with.html

Jerry.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:53:16 -0600
From: "Lee H. Skinner" 
To: SWR Mailing List , texascavers list

Subject: [Texascavers] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave
Message-ID: <53d11ddc.1000...@thuntek.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

Natural Trap Cave reopens:

Channel 7 Denver: http://tinyurl.com/lsuek4l
Fox News: http://tinyurl.com/mra8rnl

Lee Skinner
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:28:46 -0600
From: Charles Goldsmith 
To: Cavetex 
Subject: [Texascavers] Mailing list change
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Just an FYI to everyone, I've made a change to the mailing list software on
the reply-to section.  It used to default to the user who sent the email,
and people had to hit reply-all to send back to the mailing list.

This now defaults to the list, and while not optimum, the anti-spam
measures of AOL, Yahoo and a few others are forcing us to do this.

Some of you received notices this morning saying that you were removed from
the mailing list, but I've checked and no one was removed, and if you read
the body of that message, it talks about providers rejecting email from
mailing lists, due to DMARC policies.  That policy is forcing me to make
the change.

I know, a lot of technical mumbo jumbo, and if you have any problems or
questions, feel free to email me directly.

Thanks!
Charles Goldsmith
Texascavers mailing list administrator
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:59:48 -0400
From: "Alex Sproul" 
To: "Lee H. Skinner" 
Cc: s...@caver.net, texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap
Cave
Message-ID: <53d12d74.27428.4e0c5...@imocaves.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Lee, what do you know of the recent history of Natural Trap?

I visited Armpit in 1974. The grate was in place, but one could get the key 
from 
the BLM office in Cody. I bounced Natural Trap, in the company of Barry Fuller, 
the unofficial 'mayor' of Armpit. (Anybody know what became of him?) We also 
visited  Horsethief and Bighorn and I got some fantastic photos. Was access to 
Natural Trap denied at some point after that, and until now?

Alex Sproul



On 24 Jul 2014 at 8:53, Lee H. Skinner wrote:

From:   "Lee H. Skinner" 
To: SWR Mailing List ,
texascavers list 
Date sent:  Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:53:16 -0600
Subject:[SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave


Natural Trap Cave reopens:

Channel 7 Denver: http://tinyurl.com/lsuek4l
Fox News: http://tinyurl.com/mra8rnl

Lee Skinner
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Re: [SWR] Natural Trap: CJ Rushin 1972 work

2014-07-25 Thread Logan McNatt

From CJ Elron (nee Rushin):  I did my Master's research in Natural Trap Cave in 1972 (Barry Fuller was on my crew).  There is a copy of the 
resulting thesis at the University of Montana, and there was a copy at the BLM field office in Cody.  Natural Trap was gated not long after I 
finished my work.


CJ Rushin:  Interpretive and Paleontologic Values of Natural Trap Cave, Bighorn 
Mountains, Wyoming.  University of Wyoming 1973.
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

>I remember now the name of that cave near Cody that I visited with John 
>Corcoran and Sandy Szerlip in 1969.  It was Spirit Mountain Cave.  Does 
>anyone know if that one is radioactive as well?
>
>Lee Skinner

  I don't know, but that's an interesting question, since Spirit Mtn.
Cave is in the Madison Limestone directly updip from the Shoshone Canyon
Conduit Cave, an active hypogenic cave near the present river level.  Some
of us in Colorado have gotten short-term access to the Conduit Cave, which
is outgassing CO2 and H2S, has sulfur speleothems, and is challenging to
explore and survey (we mapped more than 500 feet, with an unknown length
yet to go).  The air quality in the main part of the cave depends on how
well the irrigation tunnel that bisects the cave is moving air at the
time.  Because there had been deaths associated with the bad air when the
tunnel was being mined in 1937, we used toxic-gas meters while exploring. 
We could survey (uncomfortably) at 18% O2 level, but lower in the cave it
goes down to 14%, in which we'd feel a panicky need to breathe and could
stay for only a few minutes.  For more, see Rick Rhinehart's articles in
Rocky Mtn. Caving, Winter 2008, Spring 2009, and Summer 2010.  I didn't
think about the possibility of radon, but it would be good to know.

--Donald
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Re: [SWR] Daughters of Radon

dirt...@comcast.net wrote:

>Daughters of Radon - following the Natural Trap thread 
>
>
>The monitoring in Carlsbad started around 1975 or 1976. The discovery of 
>high levels of radon in Carlsbad Caverns caught all the federal cave 
>management folks off guard. The "Daughters of Radon" concern resulted in 
>the first ever Cave Management Symposium in Albuquerque (October 1975). 
>This was arranged by the Cave Research Foundation and the National Park 
>Service to provide federal managers - Park Service, BLM, and Forest 
>Service with guidance. For the first time on a national level federal 
>resource managers became aware that caves really needed managing, and that 
>cavers were a significant source for useful information.
>
>The initial concern was for the federal employees who spent the majority 
>of their time underground.
>
>This meeting happened to coincide with the first real Balloon Fiesta in 
>Albuquerque. Sandy and I drove up from Alpine, Texas. Our kids were both 
>small and were tremulously impressed with the "flying dragons" roaring 
>fire in the sky over our heads. So were most of the symposium attendees. I 
>remember Pete and Karen Lindsley, Will White, Jack Hess, and all the CRF 
>leadership present.
>
>DirtDoc 

I was at that first Cave Management Symposium too, but had 
forgotten that it was triggered by concern about radon exposure.

--Donald
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

Louise Power  wrote:

>Apparently you don't remember me=2C but I remember you from when I was cavi=
>ng in TX. I worked on several of the TSA projects in the area. I moderated =
>the discussion between cavers=2C other conservationists=2C and NPS when the=
>y were talking about putting the tram in the Guads. I was TSA Conservation =
>Chairman at the time.
>--Louise

Hmm, curious.  I don't know how that would have worked; I've never 
caved in Texas, except during the NSS Conventions and when I worked at Big 
Bend NP in 1969, and I didn't go any farther east in the state that year.

--Donald
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Re: [SWR] More on Radon

2014-07-25 Thread Ormsby, Matthew A

I don't think the picture went through earlier, it does plays a role in it but 
there are definitely other reasons because surrounding states like Missouri, 
Illinois, Michigan and Nebraska, all much lower levels. It has to do with how 
much radon is able to escape from the ground. I am not a geologist and have 
zero education in rock but published papers say that during the last ice age, 
rock (which clearly had radium in it) from Minnesota, Wisconsin and Ontario 
were ground up and pushed to Iowa from a glacier, where they were deposited. 
What people should do in that part of the country, and really anywhere if your 
home has a basement or even high ground level readings, is install a fan and 
pipe to the roof. The EPA has a simple picture on their page. Get the air 
moving in the basement and allow it to escape up the pipe and out of the house. 
You can make a basement as safe as anywhere else with a little effort. 

-Original Message-
From: SWR [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:31 PM
To: SWR Cavers Mailing List
Subject: Re: [SWR] More on Radon

Is the reason "the most dangerous place to live in the US is Iowa" due to the 
fact that most houses in the Upper Midwest have full basements that get used 
extensively as living spaces?

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas Southwestern 
Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

From: SWR [swr-boun...@caver.net] on behalf of Ormsby, Matthew A 
[matthew.orm...@usoncology.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:17 PM
To: 'SWR Cavers Mailing List'
Subject: [SWR] More on Radon

Because people seem to be interested in this topic I've included a few pictures 
followed by a copy and paste from the EPA's page on lung cancer incidence and 
Radon exposure in homes, but cancer is indiscriminate so if your exposure comes 
from the office, your basement, your cigarettes (which contain radon as a 
byproduct of phosphate fertilizers used in tobacco crops) or your favorite cave 
it doesn't matter. Exposure is exposure. The thing with smoking is you are 
breathing radon in every time you smoke so there is a chronic exposure. In the 
world of radiation safety there is an acronym, "ALARA". Which means As Low As 
Reasonably Achievable and works of the basis that any exposure to ionizing 
radiation CAN cause harm, though it often doesn't, but it could. In case the 
pictures don't go through the most dangerous place to live in the US is Iowa 
but the 3rd picture shows that most uranium deposits are in Arizona, Utah, 
Nevada, Wyoming, etc... So uranium doesn't equate to radon, the porosity of the 
bedrock and soil have everything to do with radon escape. Medically, and 
historically, doctors used to use needles that had radium to treat cancer. The 
radium was encased with a double wall of stainless steel and that's plenty to 
prevent any radon from leaking. The radium decay also emits gamma radiation, 
which is energy, and some passes through the steel and interacts with tissue 
when placed in a person. The problem arises when you have a radioactive needle 
that has a half like of 1622 years that could be stolen and used for bad 
things. You'll also see that on a World scale the US is pretty safe. The worlds 
highest levels are found in the Czech Republic at 3.8 pCi/L or 140 Bq/ m3. 
Second is South Korea (though I imagine there isn't data for North Korea) at 
3.4 pCi/L or 124.9 Br/m3. Us averages at 1.3 pCi/ L or 48 Bq/ m3. Typical air 
has about .4 pCi/L so if your a hippy and live outside, you're a bit safer from 
Radon but more prone to snakebites (give and take right). To the point Louise 
made, the risk radon poses is exposure of the lungs to alpha particles, which 
cannot penetrate tissue (like the skin). So if you have a history of lung 
disease or cancer your risk increases as the exposure to radon increases 
because the radon is introduced from respiration. If your history is cervical 
or prostate or brain cancer, radon provides no additional risk. You've all 
probably seen a movie where a person has been in a radiation area and they are 
being scrubbed down by people with long handled brushes with water and soap, 
that is to remove the sticky byproducts of radon decay from the clothing before 
they undress. The masks prevent the alpha particles from being inhaled.

So how much radon is in the area is important, the permeability of the rock 
determines if the radon can escape from the rock, air flow determines if the 
radon collects or is spread out. To what was said earlier,

"It's said caves breathe, mines don't. If that's true there is air exchange and 
subsequently radon removal in caves..." I'm not saying if this statement is 
true then..., I'm saying i

Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread John Corcoran

Donald,

I don't remember when the first radon measurements were done at CaCa, but there 
was no mention in the USGS Microclimate study report done by the USGS (John 
McLean) at CaCa in 1968-1970 and published in May 1971.  

I recall being told in the early 1970s that the highest radon level measured in 
CaCa was in the Naturalist Room in Lower Cave (which we had surveyed not long 
before) and the levels were equivalent to a chest x-ray in just a couple hours 
of exposure.

Regards,

John

-Original Message-
From: SWR [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of DONALD G. DAVIS
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 1:26 PM
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

Louise Power  wrote:

>You know=2C when I worked at Carlsbad Caverns=2C one of the techs came 
>thro= ugh several times a day with a device that sampled the air for 
>radon. There=  were four separate areas in the Caverns which were 
>monitored--entrance pas= sage=2C interior rooms around the Queen's 
>Chamber=2C The Big Room=2C and th= e lunchroom and elevator shaft. They 
>all had different levels of radon and = employees were scheduled for 
>different areas on a rotating basis=2C and the= n had work topside for 
>a week=2C e.g.=2C visitors' center=2C nature walks= =2C bat flight 
>talks=2C et al. We had to keep track of our number of hours = 
>underground in each location. They were very conscientious of how much 
>rado= n we were exposed to. I know there is radon in all or most caves. 
>Correct m= e if I'm wrong=2C Don=2C concentration depends a lot on air 
>flow. In some p= arts of the country=2C people have detectors in their 
>basements. Considerin= g my history of cancer=2C I think I'd give serious 
>consideration to going i= nto caves with known high levels.

When did you work at CaCa?  When I worked there in 1970-71, I don't 
recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started.  During the winter, a 
draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the entrance, moves down 
along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the lower part of the Big Room, 
then warms and recirculates back outside along the ceiling.  I would expect 
radon levels to be very low along the tour route while that cold-trap 
circulation is going on.  Did the people doing the monitoring say how 
significant were the levels they found?

--Donald
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Re: [SWR] More on Radon

2014-07-25 Thread Diana Tomchick

Is the reason "the most dangerous place to live in the US is Iowa" due to the 
fact that most houses in the Upper Midwest have full basements that get used 
extensively as living spaces?

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

From: SWR [swr-boun...@caver.net] on behalf of Ormsby, Matthew A 
[matthew.orm...@usoncology.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:17 PM
To: 'SWR Cavers Mailing List'
Subject: [SWR] More on Radon

Because people seem to be interested in this topic I've included a few pictures 
followed by a copy and paste from the EPA's page on lung cancer incidence and 
Radon exposure in homes, but cancer is indiscriminate so if your exposure comes 
from the office, your basement, your cigarettes (which contain radon as a 
byproduct of phosphate fertilizers used in tobacco crops) or your favorite cave 
it doesn't matter. Exposure is exposure. The thing with smoking is you are 
breathing radon in every time you smoke so there is a chronic exposure. In the 
world of radiation safety there is an acronym, "ALARA". Which means As Low As 
Reasonably Achievable and works of the basis that any exposure to ionizing 
radiation CAN cause harm, though it often doesn't, but it could. In case the 
pictures don't go through the most dangerous place to live in the US is Iowa 
but the 3rd picture shows that most uranium deposits are in Arizona, Utah, 
Nevada, Wyoming, etc... So uranium doesn't equate to radon, the porosity of the 
bedrock and soil have everything to do with radon escape. Medically, and 
historically, doctors used to use needles that had radium to treat cancer. The 
radium was encased with a double wall of stainless steel and that's plenty to 
prevent any radon from leaking. The radium decay also emits gamma radiation, 
which is energy, and some passes through the steel and interacts with tissue 
when placed in a person. The problem arises when you have a radioactive needle 
that has a half like of 1622 years that could be stolen and used for bad 
things. You'll also see that on a World scale the US is pretty safe. The worlds 
highest levels are found in the Czech Republic at 3.8 pCi/L or 140 Bq/ m3. 
Second is South Korea (though I imagine there isn't data for North Korea) at 
3.4 pCi/L or 124.9 Br/m3. Us averages at 1.3 pCi/ L or 48 Bq/ m3. Typical air 
has about .4 pCi/L so if your a hippy and live outside, you're a bit safer from 
Radon but more prone to snakebites (give and take right). To the point Louise 
made, the risk radon poses is exposure of the lungs to alpha particles, which 
cannot penetrate tissue (like the skin). So if you have a history of lung 
disease or cancer your risk increases as the exposure to radon increases 
because the radon is introduced from respiration. If your history is cervical 
or prostate or brain cancer, radon provides no additional risk. You've all 
probably seen a movie where a person has been in a radiation area and they are 
being scrubbed down by people with long handled brushes with water and soap, 
that is to remove the sticky byproducts of radon decay from the clothing before 
they undress. The masks prevent the alpha particles from being inhaled.

So how much radon is in the area is important, the permeability of the rock 
determines if the radon can escape from the rock, air flow determines if the 
radon collects or is spread out. To what was said earlier,

"It's said caves breathe, mines don't. If that's true there is air exchange and 
subsequently radon removal in caves..." I'm not saying if this statement is 
true then..., I'm saying if a cave breathes there is air exchange and if a mine 
breathes there is air exchange and if there isn't air exchange radon can build 
up to unsafe levels. The level of exchange determines the level of radon not 
removed as a result of air flow regardless of the reason of that flow (natural 
or manmade). And just like a whitewater river has rapids and pools and eddies, 
so do caves. Some areas have good air movement, others have pockets of stale 
air, all within the same cave.



[cid:2E21CBF94255994FAB968F8CEEB69175@USONCOLOGY.COM] 
[cid:EF573DFE877E084389922DC1FA9034E5@USONCOLOGY.COM]  
[cid:9D167E74B1DA0A43AB331F0E3D7C6FD1@USONCOLOGY.COM]   
[cid:94D86AD79A19C74D946591EE12B10415@USONCOLOGY.COM]



Your chances of getting lung cancer from radon depend mostly on:

  *   How much radon is in your home
  *   The amount of time you spend in your home
  *   Whether you are a smoker or have ever smoked

Radon Risk If You Smoke

Radon Level If 1,000 people who smoked were exposed to this level over a 
lifetime*...   The risk of cancer from radon exposure compares to**... WHAT 
TO DO:
Stop smoking and...
20 pCi

Because people seem to be interested in this topic I've included a few pictures
followed by a copy and paste from the EPA's page on lung cancer incidence and
Radon exposure in homes, but cancer is indiscriminate so if your exposure comes
from the office, your basement, your cigarettes (which contain radon as a
byproduct of phosphate fertilizers used in tobacco crops) or your favorite cave
it doesn't matter. Exposure is exposure. The thing with smoking is you are
breathing radon in every time you smoke so there is a chronic exposure. In the
world of radiation safety there is an acronym, "ALARA". Which means As Low As
Reasonably Achievable and works of the basis that any exposure to ionizing
radiation CAN cause harm, though it often doesn't, but it could. In case the
pictures don't go through the most dangerous place to live in the US is Iowa
but the 3rd picture shows that most uranium deposits are in Arizona, Utah,
Nevada, Wyoming, etc... So uranium doesn't equate to radon, the porosity of the
bedrock and soil have everything to do with radon escape. Medically, and
historically, doctors used to use needles that had radium to treat cancer. The
radium was encased with a double wall of stainless steel and that's plenty to
prevent any radon from leaking. The radium decay also emits gamma radiation,
which is energy, and some passes through the steel and interacts with tissue
when placed in a person. The problem arises when you have a radioactive needle
that has a half like of 1622 years that could be stolen and used for bad
things. You'll also see that on a World scale the US is pretty safe. The worlds
highest levels are found in the Czech Republic at 3.8 pCi/L or 140 Bq/ m3.
Second is South Korea (though I imagine there isn't data for North Korea) at
3.4 pCi/L or 124.9 Br/m3. Us averages at 1.3 pCi/ L or 48 Bq/ m3. Typical air
has about .4 pCi/L so if your a hippy and live outside, you're a bit safer from
Radon but more prone to snakebites (give and take right). To the point Louise
made, the risk radon poses is exposure of the lungs to alpha particles, which
cannot penetrate tissue (like the skin). So if you have a history of lung
disease or cancer your risk increases as the exposure to radon increases
because the radon is introduced from respiration. If your history is cervical
or prostate or brain cancer, radon provides no additional risk. You've all
probably seen a movie where a person has been in a radiation area and they are
being scrubbed down by people with long handled brushes with water and soap,
that is to remove the sticky byproducts of radon decay from the clothing before
they undress. The masks prevent the alpha particles from being inhaled.

So how much radon is in the area is important, the permeability of the rock
determines if the radon can escape from the rock, air flow determines if the
radon collects or is spread out. To what was said earlier,

"It's said caves breathe, mines don't. If that's true there is air exchange and
subsequently radon removal in caves..." I'm not saying if this statement is
true then..., I'm saying if a cave breathes there is air exchange and if a mine
breathes there is air exchange and if there isn't air exchange radon can build
up to unsafe levels. The level of exchange determines the level of radon not
removed as a result of air flow regardless of the reason of that flow (natural
or manmade). And just like a whitewater river has rapids and pools and eddies,
so do caves. Some areas have good air movement, others have pockets of stale
air, all within the same cave.

[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/US_homes_over_recommended_radon_levels.gif]

[http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/siouxcityjournal.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/c2/9c2d5eba-5e41-5409-9649-e54a204be8cc/537f8ed7cc790.preview-300.jpg]
[http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/radon/usaeu.gif]
[http://www.fixradon.com/maps/images/D_01_world_radon_by_country.gif]

Your chances of getting lung cancer from radon depend mostly on:

* How much radon is in your home
* The amount of time you spend in your home
* Whether you are a smoker or have ever smoked

Radon Risk If You Smoke

Radon Level If 1,000 people who smoked were exposed to this level over a
lifetime*... The risk of cancer from radon exposure compares to**... WHAT
TO DO:
Stop smoking and...
20 pCi/LAbout 260 people could get lung cancer 250 times the risk of
drowning Fix your home
10 pCi/LAbout 150 people could get lung cancer 200 times the risk of
dying in a home fire Fix your home
8 pCi/L About 120 people could get lung cancer 30 times the risk of dying in a
fallFix your home
4 pCi/L About 62 people could get lung cancer 5 times the risk of dying in a
car crashFix your home
2 pCi/L About 32 people could get lung cancer 6 times the risk of dying from
poison Consider fixing between 2 and 4 pCi/L
1.3 pCi/L A

Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread Louise Power

I worked there summers 1976-1978 while I was in school at Texas Tech (Park 
Admin & Landscape Architecture), and during Xmas holidays in, I think, 1977. I 
don't know when CaCa started monitoring radon, but Kay Rohde did it when I was 
there. She'd go through each section with her monitor which had a fan to pull 
in the air through filter paper. Then she'd put the filter paper for each 
section into it's own envelope for analysis. Truthfully, I don't know that I 
saw the results of the monitoring, but I'm sure the park has the records. I 
think if there hadn't been significant exposure, they wouldn't have rotated our 
shifts after a certain amount of time. And you're right about cold weather. 
They told us that the concentration was less when the cave was breathing out. 
Apparently you don't remember me, but I remember you from when I was caving in 
TX. I worked on several of the TSA projects in the area. I moderated the 
discussion between cavers, other conservationists, and NPS when they were 
talking about putting the tram in the Guads. I was TSA Conservation Chairman at 
the time.
--Louise

> From: dgda...@nyx.net
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:25:54 -0600
> To: s...@caver.net
> Subject: Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave
> 
> Louise Power  wrote:
> 
> >You know=2C when I worked at Carlsbad Caverns=2C one of the techs came thro=
> >ugh several times a day with a device that sampled the air for radon. There=
> > were four separate areas in the Caverns which were monitored--entrance pas=
> >sage=2C interior rooms around the Queen's Chamber=2C The Big Room=2C and th=
> >e lunchroom and elevator shaft. They all had different levels of radon and =
> >employees were scheduled for different areas on a rotating basis=2C and the=
> >n had work topside for a week=2C e.g.=2C visitors' center=2C nature walks=
> >=2C bat flight talks=2C et al. We had to keep track of our number of hours =
> >underground in each location. They were very conscientious of how much rado=
> >n we were exposed to. I know there is radon in all or most caves. Correct m=
> >e if I'm wrong=2C Don=2C concentration depends a lot on air flow. In some p=
> >arts of the country=2C people have detectors in their basements. Considerin=
> >g my history of cancer=2C I think I'd give serious consideration to going i=
> >nto caves with known high levels.
> 
>   When did you work at CaCa?  When I worked there in 1970-71, I 
> don't recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started.  During the 
> winter, a draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the 
> entrance, moves down along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the 
> lower part of the Big Room, then warms and recirculates back outside along 
> the ceiling.  I would expect radon levels to be very low along the tour 
> route while that cold-trap circulation is going on.  Did the people doing 
> the monitoring say how significant were the levels they found?
> 
>   --Donald
> ___
> SWR mailing list
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[SWR] Daughters of Radon

2014-07-25 Thread dirtdoc

Daughters of Radon - following the Natural Trap thread 


The monitoring in Carlsbad started around 1975 or 1976. The discovery of high 
levels of radon in Carlsbad Caverns caught all the federal cave management 
folks off guard. The "Daughters of Radon" concern resulted in the first ever 
Cave Management Symposium in Albuquerque (October 1975). This was arranged by 
the Cave Research Foundation and the National Park Service to provide federal 
managers - Park Service, BLM, and Forest Service with guidance. For the first 
time on a national level federal resource managers became aware that caves 
really needed managing, and that cavers were a significant source for useful 
information. 

The initial concern was for the federal employees who spent the majority of 
their time underground. 

This meeting happened to coincide with the first real Balloon Fiesta in 
Albuquerque. Sandy and I drove up from Alpine, Texas. Our kids were both small 
and were tremulously impressed with the "flying dragons" roaring fire in the 
sky over our heads. So were most of the symposium attendees. I remember Pete 
and Karen Lindsley, Will White, Jack Hess, and all the CRF leadership present. 

DirtDoc 




- Original Message -

When I worked there in 1970-71, I 
don't recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started. During the 
winter, a draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the 
entrance, moves down along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the 
lower part of the Big Room, then warms and recirculates back outside along 
the ceiling. I would expect radon levels to be very low along the tour 
route while that cold-trap circulation is going on. Did the people doing 
the monitoring say how significant were the levels they found? 

--Donald 
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

Louise Power  wrote:

>You know=2C when I worked at Carlsbad Caverns=2C one of the techs came thro=
>ugh several times a day with a device that sampled the air for radon. There=
> were four separate areas in the Caverns which were monitored--entrance pas=
>sage=2C interior rooms around the Queen's Chamber=2C The Big Room=2C and th=
>e lunchroom and elevator shaft. They all had different levels of radon and =
>employees were scheduled for different areas on a rotating basis=2C and the=
>n had work topside for a week=2C e.g.=2C visitors' center=2C nature walks=
>=2C bat flight talks=2C et al. We had to keep track of our number of hours =
>underground in each location. They were very conscientious of how much rado=
>n we were exposed to. I know there is radon in all or most caves. Correct m=
>e if I'm wrong=2C Don=2C concentration depends a lot on air flow. In some p=
>arts of the country=2C people have detectors in their basements. Considerin=
>g my history of cancer=2C I think I'd give serious consideration to going i=
>nto caves with known high levels.

When did you work at CaCa?  When I worked there in 1970-71, I 
don't recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started.  During the 
winter, a draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the 
entrance, moves down along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the 
lower part of the Big Room, then warms and recirculates back outside along 
the ceiling.  I would expect radon levels to be very low along the tour 
route while that cold-trap circulation is going on.  Did the people doing 
the monitoring say how significant were the levels they found?

--Donald
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread Lee H. Skinner




Alex,


Lee, what do you know of the recent history of Natural Trap?

I visited Armpit in 1974. The grate was in place, but one could get 
the key from the BLM office in Cody. I bounced Natural Trap, in the 
company of Barry Fuller, the unofficial 'mayor' of Armpit. (Anybody 
know what became of him?) We also visited  Horsethief and Bighorn and 
I got some fantastic photos. Was access to Natural Trap denied at 
some point after that, and until now?


Alex Sproul


I was at the NSS convention in Lovell, Wyoming, but only visited a 
cave high on a hill near Cody that had some interesting biological 
mats, and Horsethief-Bighorn, but not Natural Trap, and don't know 
much about recent history other than what was in the article. The Fox 
News and MSN News (Thanks, Louise)  articles state that the cave has 
been closed for the last 30 years.


Regards,
Lee


I remember now the name of that cave near Cody that I visited with John 
Corcoran and Sandy Szerlip in 1969.  It was Spirit Mountain Cave.  Does 
anyone know if that one is radioactive as well?


Lee Skinner
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread Louise Power

You know, when I worked at Carlsbad Caverns, one of the techs came through 
several times a day with a device that sampled the air for radon. There were 
four separate areas in the Caverns which were monitored--entrance passage, 
interior rooms around the Queen's Chamber, The Big Room, and the lunchroom and 
elevator shaft. They all had different levels of radon and employees were 
scheduled for different areas on a rotating basis, and then had work topside 
for a week, e.g., visitors' center, nature walks, bat flight talks, et al. We 
had to keep track of our number of hours underground in each location. They 
were very conscientious of how much radon we were exposed to. I know there is 
radon in all or most caves. Correct me if I'm wrong, Don, concentration depends 
a lot on air flow. In some parts of the country, people have detectors in their 
basements. Considering my history of cancer, I think I'd give serious 
consideration to going into caves with known high levels.

> From: dgda...@nyx.net
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:41:48 -0600
> To: s...@caver.net
> Subject: Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave
> 
> Carl Pagano  wrote:
> 
> >Don't know. I heard rumors that the reason that Holy Sheep was open only =
> >to one trip a year was because the geiger counter had registered either =
> >max, or close to it. Paha Sapa Grotto in Wyoming would have a better =
> >idea, but I was hoping that someone here, including Donald Davis, could =
> >give some thought to it.=20
> >   Carl=85..
> >  =20
> >On Jul 24, 2014, at 10:56 PM, Louise Power wrote:
> >
> >> Has anyone taken a geiger counter with them on a trip?
> >>=20
> >> Louise=20
> 
>  Paha Sapa Grotto is based in South Dakota, not Wyoming. 
> 
>  I have only hearsay information to the effect that one trip to Holey 
> Sheep Cave is equivalent to a year's permissible radon exposure.  I don't 
> know who determined this, when, or how reliably.  I visited the cave once 
> many years ago, but I don't recall knowing about the radiation warnings 
> until later.  It's an odd cave--passage swallowing drainage from a ravine 
> and running downdip for several hundred feet, developed (if I recall 
> correctly) in a thin limestone bed with gypsum underneath.  (Commonly, 
> where gypsum and limestone are in contact, the dissolution will be in the 
> gypsum, but not in that case; it may have developed originally as a 
> sulfuric-acid hypogenic cave, later invaded by surface drainage; the end 
> room has pool fingers.)  I believe Holey Sheep is a BLM cave--perhaps the 
> BLM office in Lovell would have specific hazard information.  There was a 
> thread about radiation in caves on the NSS cavers' forum eight years ago:
> 
> http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1330
> 
>   --Donald
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Re: Re: [Mocaves] Mailing list change

2014-07-25 Thread Charles Goldsmith

The explanation is on this page: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/DMARC

I'm assuming your mail host has already setup DKIM and SPF, but changing
the reply-to conforms to the DMARC policies.


On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Bill Bentley  wrote:

>  Charles,
> Can you explain?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
>
>  Original Message   Subject: Re: [Mocaves] Mailing list
> change  Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:52:37 -0500 (CDT)  From:
> cav...@missourimountaineers.com 
>   Reply-To:
> cav...@missourimountaineers.com 
> , Mocaves Mailing List
>To: ca...@caver.net, Mocaves
> Mailing List  
>
>  Bill I am a systems admin manager
>  and understand DMARC which we use specifically .spf DNS records and
> DKIM...
>  how is changing a reply and reply to all have anything to do with this?
> If I reply or reply to all my mail servers will send those emails...not
> the originating email list server?
>  Unless you are referring to some web interface for the mailing list?
>  Thanks! Chuck Breite
>
> On July 25, 2014 at 12:10 PM Bill Bentley 
>  wrote:
> > Greetings fellow Cavers.,
> > Just an FYI to everyone, I've made a change to the mailing list
> > software on the reply-to section. It used to default to the user who
> > sent the email, and people had to hit reply-all to send back to the
> > mailing list.
> >
> > This now defaults to the list, and while not optimum and would not be my
> > first choice, the anti-spam measures of AOL, Yahoo and a few others are
> > forcing us to do this.
> >
> > If some of you received notices saying that you were removed from the
> > mailing list, and if you read the body of that message, it talks about
> > providers rejecting email from mailing lists, due to DMARC policies.
> > That policy is forcing me to make the changes.
> >
> > I know, a lot of technical mumbo jumbo (borrowed from Charles
> > Goldsmith), and if you have any problems or questions, feel free to
> > email me directly.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Bill Bentley
> > caver.net mailing list administrator
> > ___
> > Mocaves mailing list
> > moca...@caver.net
> > http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mocaves
> > ___
> > This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>
>
>

Fwd: Re: [Mocaves] Mailing list change


Charles,
Can you explain?

Thanks,
Bill


 Original Message 
Subject:Re: [Mocaves] Mailing list change
Date:   Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:52:37 -0500 (CDT)
From:   cav...@missourimountaineers.com 
Reply-To: 	cav...@missourimountaineers.com 
, Mocaves Mailing List 

To: ca...@caver.net, Mocaves Mailing List 



Bill I am a systems admin manager
and understand DMARC which we use specifically .spf DNS records and 
DKIM...

how is changing a reply and reply to all have anything to do with this?
If I reply or reply to all my mail servers will send those emails...not 
the originating email list server?

Unless you are referring to some web interface for the mailing list?
Thanks! Chuck Breite

On July 25, 2014 at 12:10 PM Bill Bentley  wrote:
> Greetings fellow Cavers.,
> Just an FYI to everyone, I've made a change to the mailing list
> software on the reply-to section. It used to default to the user who
> sent the email, and people had to hit reply-all to send back to the
> mailing list.
>
> This now defaults to the list, and while not optimum and would not be my
> first choice, the anti-spam measures of AOL, Yahoo and a few others are
> forcing us to do this.
>
> If some of you received notices saying that you were removed from the
> mailing list, and if you read the body of that message, it talks about
> providers rejecting email from mailing lists, due to DMARC policies.
> That policy is forcing me to make the changes.
>
> I know, a lot of technical mumbo jumbo (borrowed from Charles
> Goldsmith), and if you have any problems or questions, feel free to
> email me directly.
>
> Thanks!
> Bill Bentley
> caver.net mailing list administrator
> ___
> Mocaves mailing list
> moca...@caver.net
> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mocaves
> ___
> This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET


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[PBSS] Mailing list change


Greetings fellow Cavers.,
Just an FYI to everyone, I've made a change to the mailing list 
software on the reply-to section.  It used to default to the user who 
sent the email, and people had to hit reply-all to send back to the 
mailing list.


This now defaults to the list, and while not optimum and would not be my 
first choice, the anti-spam measures of AOL, Yahoo and a few others are 
forcing us to do this.


If some of you received notices saying that you were removed from the 
mailing list,  and if you read the body of that message, it talks about 
providers rejecting email from mailing lists, due to DMARC policies. 
 That policy is forcing me to make the changes.


I know, a lot of technical mumbo jumbo (borrowed from Charles 
Goldsmith), and if you have any problems or questions, feel free to 
email me directly.


Thanks!
Bill Bentley
caver.net mailing list administrator
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

"Ormsby, Matthew A"  wrote:

>Carl, your question just posted, there are completely different guidelines 
>for mining uranium as well. It's said caves breathe, mines don't. If 
>that's true there is air exchange and subsequently radon removal in caves 
>(which leads to consistent levels of radon- not increasing or decreasing 
>left alone at 5 pm during the summer when its 95 degrees outside from year 
>to year) but not in mines. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind, all 
>effect pockets of radon. That is why mines are required to have, among 
>other reasons, awesome ventilation systems. "Some types of rocks have 
>higher than average uranium contents. These include light-colored volcanic 
>rocks, granites, dark shales, sedimentary rocks that contain phosphate, 
>and metamorphic rocks derived from these rocks. These rocks and their 
>soils may contain as much as 100 ppm uranium. Layers of these rocks 
>underlie various parts of the United States." US Geological Survey. A 
>"working level" of a uranium mine is allowed to be 7000 Bq/ m3 in air. It 
>is of interest that some non ventilated mines have reached levels of 
>1,000,000 Bq/ m3 (might want to make a call to OSHA on that one).

"Caves breathe, mines don't" is actually a considerable 
oversimplification.  In both caves and mines, the most effective natural 
ventilation occurs where the cavities have multiple entrances at different 
elevations, causing chimney-effect airflow.  This situation is more common 
in natural caves than in mines, so on the average, caves are likely to be 
better ventilated.  The water-flow dissolution process also enlarges 
natural cracks, which may be significant airflow routes even when too 
small for human entry.  Nevertheless, stagnant-air caves are not rare.

Multiple-entrance mines can also have chimney-effect ventilation.  
But mine passages are located with reference to ore bodies, not natural 
fracture permeability, and often dead-end in places with no continuing 
airflow route to the surface.  So if radioactive minerals are present 
(which of course is the very reason for uranium mines), accumulation of 
radon is to be expected.  But in most abandoned mines, the significant 
atmospheric risks are more likely to be other gases, notably CO2 (from 
rotting timbers or natural outgassing) and methane (in coal mines).

The mention of higher than average uranium content in "sedimentary 
rocks that contain phosphate" is relevant to Holey Sheep Cave, which I 
believe is in the Permian Phosphoria Formation or an intertongued 
carbonate bed (I can't think of any other known natural cave in that unit, 
which is mined for phosphates).
--Donald
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[SWR] Mailing list change


Greetings fellow Cavers.,
Just an FYI to everyone, I've made a change to the mailing list 
software on the reply-to section.  It used to default to the user who 
sent the email, and people had to hit reply-all to send back to the 
mailing list.


This now defaults to the list, and while not optimum and would not be my 
first choice, the anti-spam measures of AOL, Yahoo and a few others are 
forcing us to do this.


If some of you received notices saying that you were removed from the 
mailing list,  and if you read the body of that message, it talks about 
providers rejecting email from mailing lists, due to DMARC policies. 
 That policy is forcing me to make the changes.


I know, a lot of technical mumbo jumbo (borrowed from Charles 
Goldsmith), and if you have any problems or questions, feel free to 
email me directly.


Thanks!
Bill Bentley
caver.net mailing list administrator
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Fwd: Uncaught bounce notification

 Original Message 
Subject:Uncaught bounce notification
Date:   Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:18:22 +
From:   mailman-boun...@caver.net
To: swr-ow...@caver.net

The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).

For more information see:
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/swr/bounce

--- Begin Message ---
Great article. Carl

Wyoming cave with fossil secrets to be excavated

1 hour ago
.
View gallery
.
CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) — For the first time in more than 30 years, paleontologists 
are about to revisit one of North America's most remarkable troves of late 
Pleistocene fossils: The bones of tens of thousands of animals piled at least 
30 feet deep at the bottom of a sinkhole-type cave.

Natural Trap Cave in north-central Wyoming is 85 feet deep and almost 
impossible to see until you're standing right next to it. Over tens of 
thousands of years, many, many animals — including now-extinct mammoths, 
short-faced bears, American lions and American cheetahs — shared the misfortune 
of not noticing the 15-foot-wide opening until they were plunging to their 
deaths.

Now, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management is preparing to reopen a metal grate 
over the opening to offer scientists what may be their best look yet at the 
variety of critters that roamed the foothills of the Bighorn Mountains during 
the planet's last glacial period around 25,000 years ago.

Des Moines University paleontologist Julie Meachen said she has been getting 
ready to lead the international team of a dozen researchers and assistants by 
hitting the climbing gym.

"I'm pretty terrified," Meachen admitted Wednesday.

She hasn't done any real climbing before, she said, and the only way in is to 
rappel down. The only way out is an eight-story, single-rope climb all the way 
back up.

The cave is perpetually cold and clammy, with temperatures in the mid-40s and 
humidity around 98 percent. Even Bureau of Land Management regional 
paleontologist Brent Breithaupt, who isn't one to get the willies from lots of 
animal bones, describes it as a tad creepy.

View gallery
In an image provided by the Bureau of Land Management, date not known, Bureau 
of Land Management cav …
"One can only hope that, as a researcher, you're able to leave," said 
Breithaupt, who visited the cave as a college student the last time it was open 
to scientists. "It's an imposing hole in the ground. But one that actually has 
very important scientific value."

Some mammal remains from the cave could be over 100,000 years old, Breithaupt 
said.

The remote site is exceptionally well preserved. It's far too challenging and 
dangerous to have been trammeled in by casual spelunkers. The Bureau of Land 
Management installed the grate to keep people and animals out in the 1970s.

A mound of dirt and rock containing layer upon layer of animal bones rises from 
the floor of the 120-foot-wide, bell-shaped chamber. Meachen hopes the remains 
are sufficiently preserved in the cold, sheltered environment to contain 
snippets of genetic information.

Co-investigator Alan Cooper with the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA at the 
University of Adelaide will attempt to retrieve fragments of mitochondrial DNA 
from the bones, Meachen said.

Such analysis wasn't possible the last time scientists dug in the cave and 
could shed light on how the animals were related to their modern counterparts 
and each other.

"It's so cold all year long, that it has got just the perfect conditions for 
preserving DNA, in multiple species, in large numbers of individuals," Meachen 
said. "Which is not really found anywhere except Siberia and the Arctic."

Starting Monday, scientists plan to re-explore the cavern, dig and extract as 
many fossils over a two-week period as possible. The researchers will dig by 
lights powered by a generator at the surface.

A National Science Foundation grant will enable additional excavations in 2015 
and 2016.

One goal is to learn more about the Pleistocene extinction, when climate change 
and possibly the arrival of humans in North America at least 13,000 years ago 
wiped out dozens of species.

The scrubby, rocky country surrounding the cave probably looks much like it did 
back then, though the climate may have been cooler and wetter, Meachen said.

The scientists will camp out nearby and venture into the cave more than once a 
day. Ropes will haul bones up top in boxes, Meachen said.

"I don't think it's necessarily going to be easy," she said. "But I think we're 
going to be pretty well prepared."--- End Message ---

Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread Ormsby, Matthew A

So I've been debating on if I should reply to this or not because what seems 
like a simple question has a very complicated answer. First, I don't know 
anything about the cavers mentioned but I do know about radiation and legal 
exposure limits. Geiger Counters are all different and have different levels of 
sensitivity but the Geiger counter here at work "maxes" out at 2000 mR/hr. In 
radiation and radiation safety there are several different ways to measure 
things, for example "R" is exposure in air, REM is in an occupational worker, 
Gy or Sv is in a person who is deliberately being treated with radiation, 
gamma, beta, Ci, Bq... All different levels of radioactivity. To overly 
simplify, I will try and interchange them roughly. So, maxes out at 2000mR/ hr. 
An accepted dose for a non radiation worker, which is all of you, is 100 mR/ 
year (which indicates a single exposure like in a cave) or 500 mR from multiple 
brief exposures. So, if a Geiger counter were being maxed out, you could not 
legally be allowed in that cave, nor would you want to be in that cave.

So that's a dose for a person, for an area a person can step into, an 
uncontrolled area can emit 5000 mR/ year or 10 mR/ week. Again, 2000 mR/ hr 
versus 10mR/ week. Big difference.

As is mentioned below the danger from radiation in caves comes from Radon 
exposure, which is a gas that decays alpha particles (big damaging particles) 
as does its daughter decay elements, as well as electrons and photons until it 
eventually becomes stable, as lead, some 20 something years later. Uranium to 
Radium to Radon to Lead with a whole bunch of other elements in between. Radium 
takes 1600 years to decay, but in a non ventilated area that decay (radon), can 
build up in a gas form (which is why basements in some areas are ventilated), 
so it's always there as a constant byproduct of the amount and type of rock in 
the area. As a gas Radon is breathed into the lungs and since it's half life is 
only about 4 days it could decay as or just after you breathe it in. It's 
daughter products are "sticky" and can adhere to dust in the air or tissue in 
your lungs. Alpha particles have a relative biological effectiveness 20 times 
higher than x-ray, like the type you could be exposed to getting a CT scan. So 
an element that emits a 300kv photon carries an RBE of 300, an element emitting 
a 300kv alpha particle carries an RBE of 6000. Radon exposure doesn't lead to 
death ( at least it's not well documented unless you piss off the Russian 
government) but it does cause lung cancer, 21,000 deaths a year and is the 
second leading cause of lung cancer behind smoking and the number one cause in 
non smokers.

Hope that help. I doubt anyone was flying rock out and if they were it wasn't 
because of radiation levels. They might have limited access because of higher 
(but still legally safe) radon levels.

It should also be noted that 200,000 mR causes acute radiation sickness, as was 
the case among atomic bomb survivors, so 200,000 divided by 2000mR/ hr would be 
100 hours in a cave, after which you have a 5% chance of dying. BUT radon= 
alpha= RBE of 20= 5 hours. At that level, after 20 hours the odds of dying go 
up to 80-100 percent after suffering for weeks and weeks as your cells 
basically explode one by one. Again, this is all a gross simplification.

Carl, your question just posted, there are completely different guidelines for 
mining uranium as well. It's said caves breathe, mines don't. If that's true 
there is air exchange and subsequently radon removal in caves (which leads to 
consistent levels of radon- not increasing or decreasing left alone at 5 pm 
during the summer when its 95 degrees outside from year to year) but not in 
mines. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind, all effect pockets of radon. 
That is why mines are required to have, among other reasons, awesome 
ventilation systems. "Some types of rocks have higher than average uranium 
contents. These include light-colored volcanic rocks, granites, dark shales, 
sedimentary rocks that contain phosphate, and metamorphic rocks derived from 
these rocks. These rocks and their soils may contain as much as 100 ppm 
uranium. Layers of these rocks underlie various parts of the United States." US 
Geological Survey. A "working level" of a uranium mine is allowed to be 7000 
Bq/ m3 in air. It is of interest that some non ventilated mines have reached 
levels of 1,000,000 Bq/ m3 (might want to make a call to OSHA on that one). 

-Original Message-
From: SWR [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of DONALD G. DAVIS
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 9:42 AM
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

Carl Pagano  wrote:

>Don't know. I heard rumors that the reason that Holy Sheep was open 
>only = to one trip a year was because the geiger counter had registered 
>either = max, or close to it. Paha Sapa Grotto in Wyoming would have a 
>better = idea, but I was ho

Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave

2014-07-25 Thread Carl Pagano

Thanks Donald. The thread is excellent. The Wyoming Caves there apparently are 
hot-radioactive, at least some, according to the thread. I still wonder about 
the mining of uranium up there. I had gone there with June Golaz, and I think, 
Rich Wolfert. Paha Sapa Grotto was part of the trip, along with Bob Montgomery 
as I recall. I was on another trip to Horsethief and John Shelton was along 
also. I wonder if any of them would know. 
  Haven't heard from any of those cavers in a long time. 
  Just curious about the radiation. 
   Carl….
On Jul 25, 2014, at 8:41 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

> Carl Pagano  wrote:
> 
>> Don't know. I heard rumors that the reason that Holy Sheep was open only =
>> to one trip a year was because the geiger counter had registered either =
>> max, or close to it. Paha Sapa Grotto in Wyoming would have a better =
>> idea, but I was hoping that someone here, including Donald Davis, could =
>> give some thought to it.=20
>>  Carl=85..
>> =20
>> On Jul 24, 2014, at 10:56 PM, Louise Power wrote:
>> 
>>> Has anyone taken a geiger counter with them on a trip?
>>> =20
>>> Louise=20
> 
> Paha Sapa Grotto is based in South Dakota, not Wyoming. 
> 
> I have only hearsay information to the effect that one trip to Holey 
> Sheep Cave is equivalent to a year's permissible radon exposure.  I don't 
> know who determined this, when, or how reliably.  I visited the cave once 
> many years ago, but I don't recall knowing about the radiation warnings 
> until later.  It's an odd cave--passage swallowing drainage from a ravine 
> and running downdip for several hundred feet, developed (if I recall 
> correctly) in a thin limestone bed with gypsum underneath.  (Commonly, 
> where gypsum and limestone are in contact, the dissolution will be in the 
> gypsum, but not in that case; it may have developed originally as a 
> sulfuric-acid hypogenic cave, later invaded by surface drainage; the end 
> room has pool fingers.)  I believe Holey Sheep is a BLM cave--perhaps the 
> BLM office in Lovell would have specific hazard information.  There was a 
> thread about radiation in caves on the NSS cavers' forum eight years ago:
> 
> http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1330
> 
>   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] BLM reopens Wyoming's Natural Trap Cave