Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers]

All,


I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, 
and if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  
Thanks, William, for your reasonable explanation.



Lee Skinner



On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
Speleological Society wrote:
OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you 
booze hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that 
use more of something that I do not use!!! I feel that if 
you want booze at the convention you should pay for it!


Marion Vittetoe said that.

In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
rckee...@cox.net writes:


Wm,

I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so
poor”. *This is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating
issue  … and especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting
that NSS Conventions must budget for a profit.*

The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers of the
NSS.  These are the very people who have made caves and the NSS
their lives.  These are the people, who, after donating hundreds
of hours each year, and many, many dollars, want to enjoy talking
with their friends.

Everyone.  Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this
is our national Convention.  Go to the just published
Secretary-Treasurer report at
https://caves.org/nss-business/reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf Go to
*Attachment A* which has all of the National Speleological
Foundation (NSF) funds.

*We have an Account Balance with the NSF of **$3,157,393.52**(as
of 3/31/2017)*.  That’s up $63,000 dollars over 3/2016, and this
is *after* $80,000 was taken out of the NSS Endowment Fund.

The first time I ever heard of law enforcement being called for a
fight at a Convention was 2011.  To bring this up as a reason is
truly offensive.

The main point is mandating to Convention staffs is yet another
reason why our NSS membership is going down.  Caving and
Conventions were fun when we started caving.

A BOG member needs to *amend the motion to remove the sentence*
“*No other alcoholic beverages will be provided.*“  A non-second
to the motion would be better.

I am not on the Texas Cavers list.  Could someone please forward
this response to them?

Thanks,

Ray Keeler

rckee...@cox.net 

623-523-1760

*From:*nssw...@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.com ]
*Sent:* Sunday, June 11, 2017 12:53 PM
*To:* nssw...@yahoogroups.com ;
texascavers@texascavers.com 
*Subject:* RE: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD
forwarded it there),

Ernie is correct – the beer budget alone would have been enough to
put several conventions in the black (instead of the red). That
said, I’m not opposed to beer (even though I don’t drink it myself).

The questions are:

-When is it “enough”? Should we just 30-35 kegs (more than OTR
purchases, and that is designated a “party event”, yet what was
being budgeted for in an upcoming convention) and have it every
night? I believe most would say “no, a couple of nights is more
than sufficient”.

-When a fight breaks out, and it has several times (to the point
of the police being called), are we responsible since we served
it? Different laws in different states/municipalities/campuses
make this a nightmare to avoid.

-The main point I have below is not that the NSS wants to ban beer
(we don’t), but that we will limit it to the alcoholic beverages
listed. There is a trend coming that wants to serve “hard liquor”,
and the entire EC of the NSS is opposed to this. Just as we don’t
object to the NSS buying beer & wine, we do object when it comes
down to liquor with much higher alcohol content. I’ll buy my own,
thank you.

-The cost of beer alone in a proposed Convention budget is $7,510.
This does not include wine at the NSS Awards Banquet, which is
another $2,475, for a total of $9,985. This amount has easily
broken Convention’s budgets all by itself. Part of 2018’s “cost
savings” is a proposed $200 pre-reg ($250 at the door)
registration, and if you want a guidebook that’s extra.

So yes, buy extra and truck around the leftovers the next day and
fill everyone’s pitchers – that’s a really great way to continue
to bleed your Society in a form we can’t control. If we don’t set
a limit, each new Convention points out the (often large) holes we
have in how to host a convention.

I would hope that everyone will instead encourage the Directors to
be 

Re: [Texascavers] Road-trip - part 2

[Charles Loving via Texascavers]

Sounds like a bad idea to me. Driving with some unknown person. I think I
would take a bus first. Besides its hot in New Mexico. But then I am in
Real de Catorce in the sierra at 9,000 feet and it rains everyday and is
cold at night. Life is good in Mexico.

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 5:00 PM, David via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I mentioned I would be brainstorming ideas.Here is my
> first Craigslist ad:
>
>   https://houston.craigslist.org/rid/6172535669.html
>
> There are 4 million people in the area around Harris County.
> I should be able to find at least one crazy person willing to go
> on a road-trip.   Right ??
>
> David Locklear
>
>
>
> ___
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> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
>


-- 
Charlie Loving
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[Texascavers] Road-trip - part 2

[David via Texascavers]

I mentioned I would be brainstorming ideas.Here is my
first Craigslist ad:

  https://houston.craigslist.org/rid/6172535669.html

There are 4 million people in the area around Harris County.
I should be able to find at least one crazy person willing to go
on a road-trip.   Right ??

David Locklear
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[Texascavers] Road-trip from Houston ??

[David via Texascavers]

I have made this announcement annually each summer about 12 times, maybe 14.



I have to work in Houston this week.I am self-employed.  My
customers can easily find
another person to take my work.The problem is that my competitors might
complete the job at
a much lower cost, and then when I get home, my customers will be wondering
why they heck
they have been paying me so much money for so long, and why they should
even ever hire me again.   However,
it is also, likely that my competitor would screw up so bad, that my client
will be so over-joyed that I am back at
work ( In my dreams ).

The other issue is always the same.Trying to justifiy the expense of
missing work and the $ 800 cost of the
trip, and what I could do instead. If I stay home, I will most likely
just nap and spend the same amount
of money upgrading my computer.All of that can be postponed.

So why even bother going to so much trouble to attend The Howdy Party only.
 There is just no way
I can attend more than 2 days of the convention. Monday is my slow day
at work, and Friday is a
day I can not afford to miss, so I have to be back in Houston by Thursday
night.So there is no way
I can attend the Thursday and Friday and Saturday events.Trying to make
the Campground Party
on Wednesday night would be very difficult.

In theory, I can take my sweet-time driving to Rio Rancho and even go the
long way.I could stop
in Mansfield ( south of Arlington ) and spend the night with my sister and
her family. I could
stay a night in Albuquerque and try to look for some fun.

I am presently living in a motel, and have been for 3 months, and life here
is sort of like a daily
vacation. I feel I not only have to pay the weekly payment while I am
gone, but will certainly
have to pay it for 2 weeks, just to make sure nothing goes wrong.
 Meaning, I really need to give
my motel manager $ 560 before I leave town.That will be no problem if
my customers paid me, but
2 of them are being total a**-wipes, and not returning my calls.

So anyways,

I plan to leave Houston on Friday night the 16th, or Saturday the 17th.
Depending on when
I leave, I may have to make a pit-stop in the town of Brenham.That is
because all my earthly possesions
are in a rental storage unit there.I can not think of anything i need
for the trip, except items that
I want to donate to the auction.

I can only guess I will be passing thru Abilene on Saturday night or Sunday
morning.

The idea is to purchase a 2 day pass at the NSS Convention for Monday and
Tuesday.Try to
get registered on Monday afternoon, and socialize at The Howdy Party, then
on Tuesday
attend the convention festivities and then high-tail it home, most likely
spending the night in
a motel near Abilene on the way back.

I will be brainstorming all my options, but due to not being able to
predict how the next
5 days will go, there is no way I can commit to anything.  This
summer's road-trip, I have even less marital
obligations than I did last year, so that is not an issue.Plus, my
daughter will most likely not even realize I
left town for 4 or 5 days.   ( I only saw her once last week for 5 minutes
).

I can gaurantee you that if you were in my situation, you would go find the
nearest waterfall, and just sit
and relax and soak in it.I just can not think of which waterfall that
would be. Turner Falls ??   Somewhere
in Tennessee ??Sitting Bull Falls Cave ?  A artificial waterfall
cave at a resort ???

It would be Las Grutas de Tolantongo in the Mexican state of Hidalgo,  if I
won the Powerball last night.

David Locklear
NSS # 27639
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Re: [Texascavers] [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD forwarded it
there),

 

Ernie is correct - the beer budget alone would have been enough to put
several conventions in the black (instead of the red). That said, I'm not
opposed to beer (even though I don't drink it myself).

 

The questions are:

-  When is it "enough"? Should we just 30-35 kegs (more than OTR
purchases, and that is designated a "party event", yet what was being
budgeted for in an upcoming convention) and have it every night? I believe
most would say "no, a couple of nights is more than sufficient".

-  When a fight breaks out, and it has several times (to the point
of the police being called), are we responsible since we served it?
Different laws in different states/municipalities/campuses make this a
nightmare to avoid.

-  The main point I have below is not that the NSS wants to ban beer
(we don't), but that we will limit it to the alcoholic beverages listed.
There is a trend coming that wants to serve "hard liquor", and the entire EC
of the NSS is opposed to this. Just as we don't object to the NSS buying
beer & wine, we do object when it comes down to liquor with much higher
alcohol content. I'll buy my own, thank you.

-  The cost of beer alone in a proposed Convention budget is $7,510.
This does not include wine at the NSS Awards Banquet, which is another
$2,475, for a total of $9,985. This amount has easily broken Convention's
budgets all by itself. Part of 2018's "cost savings" is a proposed $200
pre-reg ($250 at the door) registration, and if you want a guidebook that's
extra.

 

So yes, buy extra and truck around the leftovers the next day and fill
everyone's pitchers - that's a really great way to continue to bleed your
Society in a form we can't control. If we don't set a limit, each new
Convention points out the (often large) holes we have in how to host a
convention.

 

I would hope that everyone will instead encourage the Directors to be
fiscally responsible for the Society, and to do the right thing by voting
"for". Everything in moderation, even caving.

 

Wm Shrewsbury

President, for another week

National Speleological Society

 

From: nssw...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:45 PM
To: nssw...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

 

  

 

Ray, et al,

I don't believe Wm is trying to change your way of drinking, but to use
funding more wisely. When more funding is used for alcoholic purposes to get
folks drinking from the time they wake up to the time they fall into their
tent at night,  is becoming an ongoing thing, yes, yes and we've all seen it
recently. Ha! When you look at the financial picture of putting on a
convention, the teeter-totter seems to be swayed by the beer expenses. As
for the New Member/Fellows gathering that is a simple thing to deal with and
should be a separate issue IMHO. On top of these thoughts, of late, its the
campsites that get all this extra economy--Ha!--and those of us who put off
camping lately, that's our problem, but lowering the cost of registration
could be a major part of this issue, you think?

Ernie Coffman, 8316LF



  

Hello NSS West,

 

You need to know about this.  On the Monday Morning BOG agenda they will
vote on the motion below.

Please talk to your Directors and Officers before the Monday morning vote
and request that each BOG member votes "NO!" on Agenda Item 6.

Please forward this to other list serves.  You can contact your Directors
and Officers even if you are not going to the 2017 Convention.

Let your leaders hear from you directly!
e...@caves.org+direct...@caves.org=b...@caves.org

. and yes, there are several BOG members on the NSS West list.  If you reply
to this list, several will see your reply.

 

Agenda Item 6 "Convention Beverages"  is about restricting when alcoholic
beverages can be served during the Conventions.  You are the representatives
of the membership. You are my representative.  Please vote "NO" on agenda
item 6.

This motion is another unnecessary burden to future Convention committees.
It is another unnecessary, and unwanted requirement.

The motion is below.  The "Note:" below the motion will not be included in
the Acts of the Board.  It is only there to sway your vote. 

Minimally, I am asking you, my Directors, to amend the motion to remove the
sentence "No other alcoholic beverages will be provided."

Example:  There was a Convention (I was there) where not all of the beer was
consumed at the previous night's gathering.  The following day the remaining
beer kegs were trailered through the campground and pitchers were used to
fill campers' containers.  It was a memorable and unexpected perk that was
very much appreciated.  If this motion passes, enjoyable, spontaneous events
cannot happen.

 

6) Convention Beverages 

Shrewsbury moves: The annual NSS Convention is permitted, once legal permits
and 

[Texascavers] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[RD Milhollin via Texascavers]

--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded from SWR list:

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Ray Keeler" 
> Date: June 11, 2017 at 12:58:57 PM CDT
> To: "'swr Cavers Group'" 
> Subject: [SWR CAVERS] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO
> 
> Hello SWR,
>  
> You need to know about this.  On the Monday Morning BOG agenda they will vote 
> on the motion below.
> Please talk to your Directors and Officers before the Monday morning vote and 
> request that each BOG member votes “NO!” on Agenda Item 6.
> Please forward this to other list serves.  You can contact your Directors and 
> Officers even if you are not going to the 2017 Convention.
> Let your leaders hear from you!
> e...@caves.org+direct...@caves.org=b...@caves.org
> … and yes, there are several BOG members on the SWR list.  If you reply to 
> this list, several will see your reply.
>  
> Agenda Item 6 “Convention Beverages”  is about restricting when alcoholic 
> beverages can be served during the Conventions.  You are the representatives 
> of the membership. You are my representative.  Please vote “NO” on agenda 
> item 6.
> 
> This motion is another unnecessary burden to future Convention committees.  
> It is another unnecessary, and unwanted requirement.
> 
> The motion is below.  The “Note:” below the motion will not be included in 
> the Acts of the Board.  It is only there to sway your vote.
> 
> Minimally, I am asking you, my Directors, to amend the motion to remove the 
> sentence “No other alcoholic beverages will be provided.”
> 
> Example:  There was a Convention (I was there) where not all of the beer was 
> consumed at the previous night’s gathering.  The following day the remaining 
> beer kegs were trailered through the campground and pitchers were used to 
> fill campers’ containers.  It was a memorable and unexpected perk that was 
> very much appreciated.  If this motion passes, enjoyable, spontaneous events 
> cannot happen.
> 
>  
> 
> 6) Convention Beverages
> 
> Shrewsbury moves: The annual NSS Convention is permitted, once legal permits 
> and permission has been obtained for that area, to serve beer at the Howdy 
> Party and the Campground party. Additionally, wine may be served at the 
> Fellows/New Members reception, Auction night, and the NSS Awards Banquet. No 
> other alcoholic beverages will be provided. Adequate alternatives, such as 
> soft drinks, tea, and water will also be provided at these events.
> 
>  
> 
> Note: While the Board has discussed this on a prior occasion, other than 
> voting down the “no alcohol at all” motion on the floor at that time, the 
> Board has not codified what is acceptable. This motion is not designed to set 
> a new precedent, but to codify our understanding of the Board’s decision.
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
>  
> 
> Ray Keeler
> 
> NSS 23245
> 
> Current Arizona Region President
> 
> Former NSS EVP, AVP, and Director
> 
>  
> -- 
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Re: [Texascavers] a grotto program suggestion

[Nancy Weaver via Texascavers]

thanks David.  Agreed, and I think cold water at 68 degrees.  Nancy
> 
> That's a pretty cool video. Beautiful bedrock in the cave !
> 
> Jerry.

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