Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
The critical thing in interesting new cavers is achieving the sense of exploration - of the unknown. We need more caves like Wind and Sand (BLM, Guadalupe Mnts), which are complicated to the point of being bewildering to new cavers (or Eastern cavers used to stream passages), without delineated trails. Regardless of how beautiful or unusual a cave is, being confined to taped trails makes it too much like visiting museums and being warned not to get closer than three feet from the art. That was part of my experience growing up, but doesn't fit into the experience or interests of most young people today. Preserving caving as a sport and an adventure is a different challenge than preserving caves. Once people are hooked on caves they may be more easily introduced to cave conservation, etc., lacking which it is too cerebral for most, and they quickly become tired, bored and looking for the next short lived adventure. M On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Michael Queen wrote: > When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed > the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also > said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can > undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects > and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to > get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know > several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver > but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong, > vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech > and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and > cliquishness is hugely counter-productive. Being encouraging is not the > same as casually suggesting that just anyone can go. > > As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks > (after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so > caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of > Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a > meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the > second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has > nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it is no > stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston > Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest > of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's > physical body. > > M > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez > wrote: > >> I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website >> (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book. She was >> mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history. In >> the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website. I think >> sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too. >> >> It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their >> field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave. That >> article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all >> areas where grottos exist. It is a good way to recruit when people >> associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip. >> >> Lynda >> >> *From:* Linda Starr >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM >> *To:* Lynda Sanchez >> *Cc:* Dwight ; TAG Net ; Cave >> Texas ; Cave NM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today >> >> Lynda, >> What did you tell the UNM student? The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st >> Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new >> cavers once a month. Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia >> Grotto. When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to >> recruit new members. If you need an address, it's on our website and we >> also have a Facebook page. Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I >> don't have a URL offhand. >> >> Linda Starr >> >> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez < >> diamond...@pvtnetworks.net> wrote: >> >>> Dwight, it might get some folks interested and that is a first step. >>> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major >>> problem at the moment in many areas. We try to provide activities for all >>> levels of ability and interest. That is why we mention ridge walking and >>> other surface activities. We have gotten help in those areas too and >>> eventually those folks are great support. >>> >>> We have had many inquiries about this book from both cavers and >>> non-cavers. As a result of this USATODAY article, today I received a phone >>> call from a student at UNM wanting to know more. >>> >>> Once you get younger folks out into the real world of mountains, deserts >>> and canyons, caves
Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong, vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and cliquishness is hugely counter-productive. Being encouraging is not the same as casually suggesting that just anyone can go. As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks (after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it is no stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's physical body. M On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez wrote: > I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website > (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book. She was > mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history. In > the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website. I think > sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too. > > It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their > field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave. That > article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all > areas where grottos exist. It is a good way to recruit when people > associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip. > > Lynda > > *From:* Linda Starr > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM > *To:* Lynda Sanchez > *Cc:* Dwight ; TAG Net ; Cave > Texas ; Cave NM > *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today > > Lynda, > What did you tell the UNM student? The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st > Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new > cavers once a month. Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia > Grotto. When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to > recruit new members. If you need an address, it's on our website and we > also have a Facebook page. Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I > don't have a URL offhand. > > Linda Starr > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez > wrote: > >> Dwight, it might get some folks interested and that is a first step. >> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major >> problem at the moment in many areas. We try to provide activities for all >> levels of ability and interest. That is why we mention ridge walking and >> other surface activities. We have gotten help in those areas too and >> eventually those folks are great support. >> >> We have had many inquiries about this book from both cavers and >> non-cavers. As a result of this USATODAY article, today I received a phone >> call from a student at UNM wanting to know more. >> >> Once you get younger folks out into the real world of mountains, deserts >> and canyons, caves are not far behind, IF we can find some to explore that >> is?!! >> >> We will keep you posted. >> >> Lynda >> >> *From:* Dwight >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:10 PM >> *To:* TAG Net ; Cave Texas >> ; Cave NM >> *Subject:* [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today >> >> New Mexico's Lincoln County, Snowy River and Fort Stanton Cave make >> headlines in USA TODAY! >> >> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/07/05/snowy- >> river-book-sold-fort-stanton-live/453916001/ >> >> Will this bring us some new NSS members? >> >> This news release does refer interested individuals to the Fort Stanton >> Cave Study Project web site, but that is clearly written for established >> cavers. It gives the dates for the upcoming project schedule. >> >> Your web site is wonderful, conveys the right message, and is very >> educational. You list a series of requirements for participation in work >> trips and then say: >> >> --- >> >> The FSCSP is unable to accommodate persons not possessing all of the >> above skills, attitudes and equipment during project events in caves.
Re: [Texascavers] Land ownership in Texas
Re new membership, sometimes outing clubs evolve in ways that reflect the interests of their advisers. Perhaps we could proactively approach outing clubs and offer to lead trips or give some slide (or other) shows, demonstrations of rope work, etc.?? On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Dwight wrote: > Thanks Mike. You are correct in that the private ownership of caves > presents it's own set of potential problems. > > But you are not correct about land ownership in Texas. There is a LOT of > "public" ownership, especially in West Texas. Much is held by the State of > Texas, not the federal gvt. (except for the National Parks and a small > national forest). The General Land Office, Texas Parks and Wildlife, and > school disricts are the largest public land owning bureaucracies but the > land is often leased to individuals who treat it as their own private > fiefdom. That may not help much if you want access. > > DirtDoc > > -- > *From: *"Michael Queen" > *To: *"Dwight" > *Cc: *"TAG Net" , idigca...@yahoo.com, "Cave NM" > , "Cave Texas" > *Sent: *Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:19:30 AM > *Subject: *Re: [SWR CAVERS] Future of NSS membership > > I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private > ownership of caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the > caves than agency ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany > County, NY), because the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate > cave owned by different folk) back in about 1971. When a land management > agency works well things are great, as they are with private owners. > However, if things go south with private owners there is absolutely no > recourse but to buy the caves, and often the owners don't want to sell. > Look at what caving in Texas is like, with almost no public land ownership. > Anyone who thinks you can just go caving wherever and whenever one wants > should think twice. So if we are lucky enough to know the land owners we > can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we are not so lucky we > should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we should speak out > against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private ownership. > > MQ > ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Future of NSS membership
I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private ownership of caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the caves than agency ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany County, NY), because the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate cave owned by different folk) back in about 1971. When a land management agency works well things are great, as they are with private owners. However, if things go south with private owners there is absolutely no recourse but to buy the caves, and often the owners don't want to sell. Look at what caving in Texas is like, with almost no public land ownership. Anyone who thinks you can just go caving wherever and whenever one wants should think twice. So if we are lucky enough to know the land owners we can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we are not so lucky we should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we should speak out against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private ownership. MQ On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Dwight wrote: > > > Hi John: > > > > I started caving in the east where private ownership of caves was the > norm. New York and New England, then Virginia and West Virginia. I moved > west and have dealt with government ownership of caves: State or Federal by > various agencies. So I understand your issues quite well. In many ways it > is fair to say that we cavers are now reaping what we have sowed. The > history of the last 50 years of exploration and discovery in Ft. Stanton > cave in New Mexico (as well documented in the recent publication *12 > Miles from Daylight*) so clearly documents the complications resulting > from agency ownership. The way we go caving is affected by the way caves > are owned and managed: by an individual, a family, a private trust, or a > bureaucracy. > > > > That, however, is a different (but not entirely unrelated) question from > the one I intended to ask, which was focused on the future membership of > the NSS. How do we acquire new NSS members? Most members have been > recruited either from existing cavers or by NSS groups recruiting new > members from the interested public through structured educational and > recruitment campaigns. Most of us probably agree that our goal is to create > an educated public aware of the value and fragility of our cave resources > as well as a body of people who actually spend some of their time exploring > and studying caves. > > > > The intended goal of my question is to lead to new, younger, members of > the NSS to carry on our goals into the changing future. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts and comments. You raise the management issues > that complicate our enjoyment of "just going caving". > > > > DirtDoc > xx > Dirt Doc Question > By: John Hutchison (White House, Tennessee) > idigca...@yahoo.com > > Dwight Deal asked a question. "In your thinking, John, what is the > balance between cavers and the caves? Our near-term experiences vrs the > resource itself?' > > All I have to relate to is my own personal observance. In years past > caves were much easier to visit when they were privately owned. Once > government became involved the issue of access became a hassle, an extra > expense, and worst of all, a no go. Today, most government owned, or > controlled caves are closed outright (unless you know the right person). > Others require a permit, hunting license fee, or all three. One area in > my state wants to charge everyone $15 a day per vehicle for a day trip > and that does not include a permit to go caving. No camping, no caving, > even though there are some great caves on the property. It is also a > hassle to acquire the land permit as you have to go when the office is > open and it is often not close to where you want to go. Private > landowners were much easier to deal with. You went, you asked and you > got to go or you didn't. Free. > > Here in TN we had a great cove and cave called Camps Gulf. Both were > pristine. Then the local state park acquired the cave and began > shuttling non caver tourists to the cave. Once they knew where it was > they would sometimes come back on their own and trash the cave. So that > was the excuse used to gate off the entire cove. No more camping, no > more driving a 4x4 up the cove. The cave was pristine before the state > acquired it. So is it really better when everything is "proteceted"? > Once "protected" people tend to sneak or breach a gate and vandalize > just because they are P.O.'d that they can't access "public" owned land. > > So, as far as I can tell, the best protection of all, was not telling > the general public where all the caves are. Grottoes were the best way > to learn caver etiquette, proper procedures, safety, environmental > concerns, technique, equipment, and cave locations while accompanied by > trained cavers. > > The state of TN has bought up thousands of acres of land w
