Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers (resend)

[Lee H. Skinner]

In the ballot, I specifically asked that votes not be sent to me only 
and not to the lists.  This can widely influence other cavers and skew 
results. Because the Rules at the bottom of the ballot were not followed 
by a voter, I'm sorry that that vote will not be counted.



Lee


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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Jocelyn Hooper]

A Family of cavers...a Party of cavers...a Geode of cavers

Jocie

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 3:46 PM Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

> Thanks, Carol.
>
>
> We now have 37 entries.  I've attached the list here.  If the JPEG
> attachment is scrubbed from the Texas list, you can see it in the SWR list.
>
>
> Lee
>
>
> On 4/25/2021 2:23 PM, 'C Tiderman' via Southwestern Cavers of the National
> Speleological Society wrote:
>
> scientist - a query of cavers
> divers - a splash of cavers
> novices - a wonder of cavers
>
>
> Carol
>
> il.yahoo.com
> 
> .
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Bob Booth]

A void of cavers?


On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 4:46 PM Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

> Thanks, Carol.
>
>
> We now have 37 entries.  I've attached the list here.  If the JPEG
> attachment is scrubbed from the Texas list, you can see it in the SWR list.
>
>
> Lee
>
>
> On 4/25/2021 2:23 PM, 'C Tiderman' via Southwestern Cavers of the National
> Speleological Society wrote:
>
> scientist - a query of cavers
> divers - a splash of cavers
> novices - a wonder of cavers
>
>
> Carol
>
> il.yahoo.com
> 
> .
>
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Hi, Amy.


Not a separate name for cavechildren for this particular contest.  You 
are cavers just like the adults!  But you all can think of yourselves as 
*minicrawlers*, a great name I think, because many of you guys are small 
enough to go through unexplored crawls and find things that adults will 
have to dig out the floor more to get through to see whatever you found 
beyond the crawl! Minicrawlers have been very important and very 
successful in finding new cave.  So do you agree with that name?



Lee



On 4/25/2021 3:10 PM, Amy Jasek wrote:

What about the children of cavers?  Do we get a name? 

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 25, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

Thanks, Mark.


Excellent article on plural nouns. I encourage all here to read it:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives


Lee



On 4/25/2021 7:57 AM, Mark Minton wrote:
These collective nouns for different groups of animals are called "terms of venery". 
They originated among hunters back in the middle ages. See 
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives>.

Mark M

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Lee 
H. Skinner
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:33 AM
To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texas Cavers; Sandia Grotto
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

Donald,

You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to
adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway,
and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves,
and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So
let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.

Lee


On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
Thanks, Mimi!

Very cute essay.

But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I
will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no
majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it
through).

So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.
You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of
Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using
the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained
in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used
throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming
mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.

 I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of
weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows,
but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of
cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I
can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among
active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just
complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their
start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could
shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in
class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or
"Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.

 --Donald

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Amy Jasek]

What about the children of cavers?  Do we get a name? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 25, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Mark.
> 
> 
> Excellent article on plural nouns. I encourage all here to read it:
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
>> On 4/25/2021 7:57 AM, Mark Minton wrote:
>> These collective nouns for different groups of animals are called "terms of 
>> venery". They originated among hunters back in the middle ages. See 
>> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives>.
>> 
>> Mark M
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Lee H. Skinner
>> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:33 AM
>> To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texas Cavers; Sandia Grotto
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers
>> 
>> Donald,
>> 
>> You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to
>> adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway,
>> and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves,
>> and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So
>> let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.
>> 
>> Lee
>> 
>>> On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Thanks, Mimi!
>>>> 
>>>> Very cute essay.
>>>> 
>>>> But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I
>>>> will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no
>>>> majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it
>>>> through).
>>>> 
>>>> So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.
>>>> You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of
>>>> Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using
>>>> the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained
>>>> in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used
>>>> throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming
>>>> mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.
>>> I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of
>>> weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows,
>>> but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of
>>> cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I
>>> can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among
>>> active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just
>>> complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their
>>> start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could
>>> shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in
>>> class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or
>>> "Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.
>>> 
>>> --Donald
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, Mark.


Excellent article on plural nouns. I encourage all here to read it:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives


Lee


On 4/25/2021 7:57 AM, Mark Minton wrote:

These collective nouns for different groups of animals are called "terms of venery". 
They originated among hunters back in the middle ages. See 
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives>.

Mark M

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Lee 
H. Skinner
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:33 AM
To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texas Cavers; Sandia Grotto
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

Donald,

You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to
adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway,
and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves,
and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So
let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.

Lee

On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:


Thanks, Mimi!

Very cute essay.

But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I
will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no
majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it
through).

So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.
You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of
Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using
the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained
in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used
throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming
mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.

 I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of
weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows,
but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of
cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I
can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among
active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just
complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their
start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could
shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in
class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or
"Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.

 --Donald

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, Carol.


We now have 37 entries.  I've attached the list here.  If the JPEG 
attachment is scrubbed from the Texas list, you can see it in the SWR list.



Lee


On 4/25/2021 2:23 PM, 'C Tiderman' via Southwestern Cavers of the 
National Speleological Society wrote:

scientist - a query of cavers
divers - a splash of cavers
novices - a wonder of cavers


Carol

il.yahoo.com 
.
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Nancy Weaver]

  a derangement of cavers.  or at least they were when I started in the late 
70’s
N
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Mimi Jasek]

Mark,

Thank you for that. I read the whole article and found it wonderful and 
entertaining!

In regards to our little collective noun contest, this toward the end of the 
article stood out.

“Language lovers adore collective nouns, but most of them don't meet the 
criteria for entry. For lexicographers, a word hasn't fully entered the 
language until it's used consistently in running prose without any sort of 
parenthetical explanation or gloss, and many of these terms haven't. How often 
does one need to refer, for instance, to a group of brewers or butchers?...”

But, we are cavers, full of wit, knowledge, and collective fun, so who knows 
what will happen? I for one am looking forward to the results.

Mimi Jasek

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 25, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Mark Minton  wrote:
> 
> These collective nouns for different groups of animals are called "terms of 
> venery". They originated among hunters back in the middle ages. See 
> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives>.
> 
> Mark M
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
> Lee H. Skinner
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:33 AM
> To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texas Cavers; Sandia Grotto
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers
> 
> Donald,
> 
> You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to 
> adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway, 
> and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves, 
> and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So 
> let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.
> 
> Lee
> 
>> On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Mimi!
>>> 
>>> Very cute essay.
>>> 
>>> But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I 
>>> will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no 
>>> majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it 
>>> through).
>>> 
>>> So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  
>>> You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of 
>>> Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using 
>>> the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained 
>>> in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used 
>>> throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming 
>>> mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.
>> 
>>I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of 
>> weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows, 
>> but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of 
>> cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I 
>> can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among 
>> active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just 
>> complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their 
>> start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could 
>> shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in 
>> class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or 
>> "Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.
>> 
>>--Donald
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Mark Minton]

These collective nouns for different groups of animals are called "terms of 
venery". They originated among hunters back in the middle ages. See 
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/a-drudge-of-lexicographers-presents-collective-nouns/common-collectives>.

Mark M

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Lee 
H. Skinner
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:33 AM
To: swrcav...@googlegroups.com; Texas Cavers; Sandia Grotto
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

Donald,

You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to 
adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway, 
and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves, 
and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So 
let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.

Lee

On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Mimi!
>>
>> Very cute essay.
>>
>> But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I 
>> will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no 
>> majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it 
>> through).
>>
>> So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  
>> You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of 
>> Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using 
>> the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained 
>> in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used 
>> throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming 
>> mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.
>
> I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of 
> weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows, 
> but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of 
> cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I 
> can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among 
> active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just 
> complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their 
> start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could 
> shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in 
> class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or 
> "Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.
>
> --Donald

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Donald,


You're right - maybe it's a silly venture - maybe cavers will refuse to 
adopt the noun after the contest - but it's a fun thing to do anyway, 
and it exhibits a little creativity that we can share among ourselves, 
and maybe a few laughs in these days when real caving is limited.  So 
let's see what we wind up with.  The future is unwritten.



Lee


On 4/24/2021 10:47 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2021, Lee H. Skinner wrote:


Thanks, Mimi!

Very cute essay.

But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I 
will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no 
majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it 
through).


So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  
You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of 
Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using 
the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained 
in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used 
throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming 
mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.


I've stayed out of this so far, because I've never been a fan of 
weird collective names for particular animals like "murder" of crows, 
but here's my two cents' worth.  I've always thought that "team" of 
cavers is perfectly satisfactory, at least for project caving.  I 
can't foresee an eccentric group name actually catching on among 
active cavers--what would they need it for?  Seems as if it would just 
complicate communication.  I suspect that these oddities got their 
start among farmers who kept several kinds of livestock and could 
shorten their talk if every species had its unique flock term--or in 
class societies where each class had a name like "Untouchables" or 
"Brahmins"--but it's hard to see how this fits cavers.


    --Donald


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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, Mimi.


I want to remind people that it's OK to create completely new words as 
well, ans if you can't think of something, try using a thesaurus. Even 
consider proper names.  I'll limit the entries to no more than four per 
person as Jim Evatt has submitted four, but just don't throw out the 
first thing that pops into your mind. You have a better chance of 
winning if it's short (1 or 2 syllables), something easy to remember and 
associate with cavers, or just somehow feels right to you.  Negative 
suggesting nouns are also unlikely to win.  Funny sounding names won't 
sound funny for long. 28 submissions so far.



Lee


On 4/24/2021 9:25 PM, Mimi Jasek wrote:

Hey Lee,

Just having some fun  I think it a great idea, and look forward to 
voting! Seems to have caught on among the caver family. 
Congratulations on sparking such creativity, and look forward to 
seeing the final list of entries.


Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 24, 2021, at 8:46 PM, Lee H. Skinner > wrote:



Thanks, Mimi!


Very cute essay.


But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I 
will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no 
majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it 
through).


So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  
You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of 
Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using 
the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained 
in cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used 
throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming 
mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.


So instead of "The cavers all emerged from the cave at dusk", it 
would be reported as


"The column of cavers emerged from the cave at dusk"  or

"The descent of cavers squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or

"The crawl of cavers met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"


Eventually, after the term becomes widely accepted, you could use

"The column emerged from the cave at dusk"  or

"The descent squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or

"The crawl met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"

These three phrases sound very strange now, but in a few years, the 
winning noun would not sound strange if used in the proper context.



By the way, we now have 27 proposed entries from New Mexico and 
Texas.  People who have not submitted entries can also vote of course.



Lee


On 4/24/2021 6:41 PM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
This thread has actually been quite fun, and I wonder if there could 
be more than one winner? Maybe top three for different types of cavers?


Imagine a report from a national convention one day during this 
special year..


Well, we have quite the large gathering today. There is a group of 
breakdown joined by some caveat, cavalcade, and column, and word is 
there is a huge announcement coming out by the end of the week! 
Wonder where the area will be?


On another front, there is a cascade and sump being joined by a 
descent for some serious, but very excited, talk of a big push. 
Wetsuits and rope skills mandatory!


Seems like a pack, stash, and formation have joined forces to map a 
new, large find somewhere, making the next map salon a guaranteed 
full house!


And of course clunk, clump, and giggle are getting ready to head out 
for some fun in the type of caves they love best!


For this large asylum, there is something for everyone! Stay tuned.

Mimi Jasek 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner > wrote:


What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of 
geese, pods of whales and murders of crows. What term would do 
justice to the special nature of cavers?   I once suggested a 
*column of cavers*, as cave teams usually go single-file when 
traversing (especially well protected) cave passages.  Does anyone 
have a better idea?



Lee Skinner

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Mimi Jasek]

Hey Lee,

Just having some fun  I think it a great idea, and look forward to voting! 
Seems to have caught on among the caver family. Congratulations on sparking 
such creativity, and look forward to seeing the final list of entries.

Mimi

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 24, 2021, at 8:46 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Mimi!   
> 
> 
> 
> Very cute essay.
> 
> 
> 
> But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I will 
> announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no majority, I 
> will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it through).
> 
> So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  You 
> have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of Herefords.  The 
> purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using the winning term enough 
> (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained in cavers' minds such that it 
> will become automatically used throughput the world caving community , 
> eventually becoming mainstream in time so that the noun will get into 
> dictionaries.  
> 
> So instead of "The cavers all emerged from the cave at dusk", it would be 
> reported as
> 
> "The column of cavers emerged from the cave at dusk"  or
> 
> "The descent of cavers squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or
> 
> "The crawl of cavers met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually, after the term becomes widely accepted, you could use
> 
> "The column emerged from the cave at dusk"  or
> 
> "The descent squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or
> 
> "The crawl met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"
> 
> These three phrases sound very strange now, but in a few years, the winning 
> noun would not sound strange if used in the proper context.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, we now have 27 proposed entries from New Mexico and Texas.  
> People who have not submitted entries can also vote of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
>> On 4/24/2021 6:41 PM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
>> This thread has actually been quite fun, and I wonder if there could be more 
>> than one winner? Maybe top three for different types of cavers?
>> 
>> Imagine a report from a national convention one day during this special 
>> year..
>> 
>> Well, we have quite the large gathering today. There is a group of breakdown 
>> joined by some caveat, cavalcade, and column, and word is there is a huge 
>> announcement coming out by the end of the week! Wonder where the area will 
>> be?
>> 
>> On another front, there is a cascade and sump being joined by a descent for 
>> some serious, but very excited, talk of a big push. Wetsuits and rope skills 
>> mandatory!
>> 
>> Seems like a pack, stash, and formation have joined forces to map a new, 
>> large find somewhere, making the next map salon a guaranteed full house!
>> 
>> And of course clunk, clump, and giggle are getting ready to head out for 
>> some fun in the type of caves they love best!
>> 
>> For this large asylum, there is something for everyone! Stay tuned.
>> 
>> Mimi Jasek 
>>  
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
>> 
>>> What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, pods 
>>> of whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to the special 
>>> nature of cavers?   I once suggested a column of cavers, as cave teams 
>>> usually go single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave 
>>> passages.  Does anyone have a better idea?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Lee Skinner
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/d8d526ce-4793-98a1-bb2e-7b1fbbe29ee3%40thuntek.net.
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/2090E5F9-DAB9-4CD1-9607-8A3F70E6D02
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Mark]

If it’s not too late to submit a couple of other offerings, I would suggest the 
following:

Karstacians
Cuevanauts

Thanks,
Mark Ross



From: Lee H. Skinner 
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2021 8:46 PM
To: SWR >> New Mexico Cavers ; Texas Cavers ; Sandia Grotto 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

Thanks, Mimi!   




Very cute essay.



But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I will 
announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no majority, I will 
hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it through).


So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  You have 
a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of Herefords.  The purpose 
of the survey is to get cavers to start using the winning term enough (when 
appropriate) so that it get ingrained in cavers' minds such that it will become 
automatically used throughput the world caving community , eventually becoming 
mainstream in time so that the noun will get into dictionaries.  


So instead of "The cavers all emerged from the cave at dusk", it would be 
reported as

"The column of cavers emerged from the cave at dusk"  or


"The descent of cavers squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or


"The crawl of cavers met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"



Eventually, after the term becomes widely accepted, you could use

"The column emerged from the cave at dusk"  or

"The descent squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or

"The crawl met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"

These three phrases sound very strange now, but in a few years, the winning 
noun would not sound strange if used in the proper context.



By the way, we now have 27 proposed entries from New Mexico and Texas.  People 
who have not submitted entries can also vote of course.




Lee



On 4/24/2021 6:41 PM, Mimi Jasek wrote:

  This thread has actually been quite fun, and I wonder if there could be more 
than one winner? Maybe top three for different types of cavers? 

  Imagine a report from a national convention one day during this special 
year..

  Well, we have quite the large gathering today. There is a group of breakdown 
joined by some caveat, cavalcade, and column, and word is there is a huge 
announcement coming out by the end of the week! Wonder where the area will be?

  On another front, there is a cascade and sump being joined by a descent for 
some serious, but very excited, talk of a big push. Wetsuits and rope skills 
mandatory!

  Seems like a pack, stash, and formation have joined forces to map a new, 
large find somewhere, making the next map salon a guaranteed full house!

  And of course clunk, clump, and giggle are getting ready to head out for some 
fun in the type of caves they love best!

  For this large asylum, there is something for everyone! Stay tuned.

  Mimi Jasek 

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:


What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, pods 
of whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to the special 
nature of cavers?   I once suggested a column of cavers, as cave teams usually 
go single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave passages.  Does 
anyone have a better idea?



Lee Skinner


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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, Mimi!


Very cute essay.


But there will be only one winner and no 2nd or 3rd place winners.  I 
will announce the number of votes each name got, and if there is no 
majority, I will hold a runoff vote (there is no reason to rush it through).


So the term will refer to all cavers, not different types of cavers.  
You have a herd of longhorns, not packs of Angus or schools of 
Herefords.  The purpose of the survey is to get cavers to start using 
the winning term enough (when appropriate) so that it get ingrained in 
cavers' minds such that it will become automatically used throughput the 
world caving community , eventually becoming mainstream in time so that 
the noun will get into dictionaries.


So instead of "The cavers all emerged from the cave at dusk", it would 
be reported as


"The column of cavers emerged from the cave at dusk"  or

"The descent of cavers squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or

"The crawl of cavers met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"


Eventually, after the term becomes widely accepted, you could use

"The column emerged from the cave at dusk"  or

"The descent squeezed through the crack in 20 minutes" or

"The crawl met for a satisfying dinner after a long trip"

These three phrases sound very strange now, but in a few years, the 
winning noun would not sound strange if used in the proper context.



By the way, we now have 27 proposed entries from New Mexico and Texas.  
People who have not submitted entries can also vote of course.



Lee


On 4/24/2021 6:41 PM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
This thread has actually been quite fun, and I wonder if there could 
be more than one winner? Maybe top three for different types of cavers?


Imagine a report from a national convention one day during this 
special year..


Well, we have quite the large gathering today. There is a group of 
breakdown joined by some caveat, cavalcade, and column, and word is 
there is a huge announcement coming out by the end of the week! Wonder 
where the area will be?


On another front, there is a cascade and sump being joined by a 
descent for some serious, but very excited, talk of a big push. 
Wetsuits and rope skills mandatory!


Seems like a pack, stash, and formation have joined forces to map a 
new, large find somewhere, making the next map salon a guaranteed full 
house!


And of course clunk, clump, and giggle are getting ready to head out 
for some fun in the type of caves they love best!


For this large asylum, there is something for everyone! Stay tuned.

Mimi Jasek 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner > wrote:


What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, 
pods of whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to 
the special nature of cavers?   I once suggested a *column of 
cavers*, as cave teams usually go single-file when traversing 
(especially well protected) cave passages.  Does anyone have a better 
idea?



Lee Skinner

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Mimi Jasek]

This thread has actually been quite fun, and I wonder if there could be more 
than one winner? Maybe top three for different types of cavers?

Imagine a report from a national convention one day during this special 
year..

Well, we have quite the large gathering today. There is a group of breakdown 
joined by some caveat, cavalcade, and column, and word is there is a huge 
announcement coming out by the end of the week! Wonder where the area will be?

On another front, there is a cascade and sump being joined by a descent for 
some serious, but very excited, talk of a big push. Wetsuits and rope skills 
mandatory!

Seems like a pack, stash, and formation have joined forces to map a new, large 
find somewhere, making the next map salon a guaranteed full house!

And of course clunk, clump, and giggle are getting ready to head out for some 
fun in the type of caves they love best!

For this large asylum, there is something for everyone! Stay tuned.

Mimi Jasek 
 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, pods of 
> whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to the special nature 
> of cavers?   I once suggested a column of cavers, as cave teams usually go 
> single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave passages.  Does 
> anyone have a better idea?
> 
> 
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Chris Vreeland]

Joe Ivy used to call a crowd of cavers queued up at a constriction an “idiot 
sump,” So how about a Sump of Cavers?

> On Apr 24, 2021, at 1:40 PM, Robert West  wrote:
> 
> 
> Another option...a clamber of cavers.   
> 
>  climb, move about, or get in or out of something in an awkward and laborious 
> way, typically using both hands and feet.
> 
> Bob West
> 
> On Apr 24, 2021 12:01 AM, Val Hildreth-Werker  wrote:
> We’ve all used it, lots of cluster references regarding caves, speleothems, 
> and cavers!   … a cluster of cavers.
> 
> Val 
> 
> Val Hildreth-Werker 
> Conservation Division Joint Chief
> National Speleological Society
> caves.org/conservaton/
> valhildrethwer...@caves.org
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2021, at 9:11 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> We now have a dozen creative entries (maybe more from Texas as I just get the 
> daily digest every morning):
> 
> 
> 
> BreakdownKatherine Arens
> CaveatPenny Boston
> Cavalcade  Steve Peerman
> Cascade George Veni
> ClumpMimi Jasek
> Clunk  Jerry Atkinson
> Column  Lee Skinner
> Descent  Kathy Peerman
> Formation John Cochran
> Giggle Jerry Atkinson
> PackMike Mansur
> Stash   Linda Starr
> 
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/23/2021 8:48 PM, John Cochran wrote:
> 
> it is obviously a "formation" of cavers
> 
> cheers
> John 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:50 PM Linda Starr  wrote:
> Cavalcade is too hard to say, though I like the alliteration.  How about one 
> syllable?  It’s a bit too militaristic.
> Linda Starr 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:51 PM Steve Peerman  wrote:
> Lee,
>   In order to preserve the alliteration, how about a “cavalcade” of 
> cavers?
> 
> 
> On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, pods of 
> whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to the special nature 
> of cavers?   I once suggested a column of cavers, as cave teams usually go 
> single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave passages.  Does 
> anyone have a better idea?
> 
> 
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/d8d526ce-4793-98a1-bb2e-7b1fbbe29ee3%40thuntek.net.
> 
> Steve Peerman
> gypca...@comcast.net
> 
> "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't 
> do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the 
> safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
> attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Robert West]

Another option...a clamber of cavers.    climb, move about, or get in or out of something in an awkward and laborious way, typically using both hands and feet.Bob WestOn Apr 24, 2021 12:01 AM, Val Hildreth-Werker  wrote:We’ve all used it, lots of cluster references regarding caves, speleothems, and cavers!   … a cluster of cavers.Val Val Hildreth-Werker Conservation Division Joint ChiefNational Speleological Societycaves.org/conservaton/valhildrethwer...@caves.org

On Apr 23, 2021, at 9:11 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:We now have a dozen creative entries (maybe more from Texas as I
  just get the daily digest every morning):
Breakdown        Katherine Arens
  Caveat                Penny Boston
  Cavalcade          Steve Peerman
  Cascade         George Veni
  Clump                Mimi Jasek
  Clunk                  Jerry Atkinson
  Column              Lee Skinner
  Descent              Kathy Peerman
  Formation John Cochran
  Giggle             Jerry Atkinson
  Pack                    Mike Mansur
  Stash                   Linda Starr
Lee

On 4/23/2021 8:48 PM, John Cochran
  wrote:


  
  
it is obviously a "formation" of cavers


cheers
John 
  
  
  
On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:50
  PM Linda Starr  wrote:


  
Cavalcade is too hard to say, though I like
  the alliteration.  How about one syllable?  It’s a bit too
  militaristic.
  
  
Linda Starr 



  
On Fri, Apr 23, 2021
  at 5:51 PM Steve Peerman 
  wrote:


  Lee,
	In
  order to preserve the alliteration, how about a
  “cavalcade” of cavers?
  
  

  

  On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Lee H.
Skinner 
wrote:
  
  
What do you call a collection of
cavers?  There are gaggles of geese,
pods of whales and murders of crows.
What term would do justice to the
special nature of cavers?   I once
suggested a column of cavers, as
cave teams usually go single-file when
traversing (especially well protected)
cave passages.  Does anyone have a
better idea?
  Lee Skinner
  



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Speleological Society" group.
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  Steve Peerman
  gypca...@comcast.net
  
  
  "Twenty years from now you will be
more disappointed by the things you didn't
do than by the ones you did. So throw off
the bowlines, Sail away from the
safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your
sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    attributed to Mark Twain, but no
record exists of his having written this.
  
  



  
  

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Val Hildreth-Werker]

We’ve all used it, lots of cluster references regarding caves, speleothems, and 
cavers!   … a cluster of cavers.

Val 

Val Hildreth-Werker 
Conservation Division Joint Chief
National Speleological Society
caves.org/conservaton/
valhildrethwer...@caves.org



On Apr 23, 2021, at 9:11 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
We now have a dozen creative entries (maybe more from Texas as I just get the 
daily digest every morning):



BreakdownKatherine Arens
CaveatPenny Boston
Cavalcade  Steve Peerman
Cascade George Veni
ClumpMimi Jasek
Clunk  Jerry Atkinson
Column  Lee Skinner
Descent  Kathy Peerman
Formation John Cochran
Giggle Jerry Atkinson
PackMike Mansur
Stash   Linda Starr



Lee



On 4/23/2021 8:48 PM, John Cochran wrote:
> 
> it is obviously a "formation" of cavers
> 
> cheers
> John 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:50 PM Linda Starr  > wrote:
> Cavalcade is too hard to say, though I like the alliteration.  How about one 
> syllable?  It’s a bit too militaristic.
> Linda Starr 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:51 PM Steve Peerman  > wrote:
> Lee,
>   In order to preserve the alliteration, how about a “cavalcade” of 
> cavers?
> 
> 
>> On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner > > wrote:
>> 
>> What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles of geese, pods 
>> of whales and murders of crows. What term would do justice to the special 
>> nature of cavers?   I once suggested a column of cavers, as cave teams 
>> usually go single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave 
>> passages.  Does anyone have a better idea?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Lee Skinner
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group.
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>>  
>> .
> 
> Steve Peerman
> gypca...@comcast.net 
> 
> "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't 
> do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the 
> safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
> attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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>  
> .
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Yes, we will vote.   Any caver whether on one of these lists or not can 
make suggestions until Wednesday, so you can pass this on to caver in 
other states.  I will post a ballot of suggested plural nouns for cavers 
on this Thursday.  Cavers can send their secret votes to me before the 
following Sunday by personal email, and I will announce the results to 
the lists on the following Tuesday. Suggestions should be brief, and 
something easy to remember for cavers to start using the noun in their 
conversations, emails and social media so that the public may eventually 
adopt it as well,  and maybe even get the term into dictionaries in a 
few years.



Lee


"Gravity may be nature's weakest force, but it is still capable of 
spaghettifying you."  --lhs, 2021



On 4/23/2021 9:43 PM, Elizabeth Galbraith wrote:
I  like   formation or  crawl  of  cavers  very much or possibly 
Speleothems.  Are  we going to  get to  vote, Lee?


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 9:29 PM 'Bianca della Vittoria' via 
Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society 
mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


how about a "crawl" of cavers ?


On Friday, April 23, 2021, 09:12:03 PM MDT, Lee H. Skinner
mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote:


Thanks, John.


We now have a dozen creative entries (maybe more from Texas as I
just get the daily digest every morning):


Breakdown        Katherine Arens
Caveat                Penny Boston
Cavalcade          Steve Peerman
Cascade         George Veni
Clump                Mimi Jasek
Clunk                  Jerry Atkinson
Column              Lee Skinner
Descent              Kathy Peerman
Formation John Cochran
Giggle             Jerry Atkinson
Pack                    Mike Mansur
Stash                   Linda Starr


Lee


On 4/23/2021 8:48 PM, John Cochran wrote:

it is obviously a "formation" of cavers

cheers
John

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:50 PM Linda Starr mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Cavalcade is too hard to say, though I like the alliteration. 
How about one syllable?  It’s a bit too militaristic.
Linda Starr 


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:51 PM Steve Peerman
mailto:gypca...@comcast.net>> wrote:

Lee,
In order to preserve the alliteration, how about a
“cavalcade” of cavers?



On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner
mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote:

What do you call a collection of cavers? There are
gaggles of geese, pods of whales and murders of crows.
What term would do justice to the special nature of
cavers?   I once suggested a *column of cavers*, as cave
teams usually go single-file when traversing (especially
well protected) cave passages.  Does anyone have a better
idea?


Lee Skinner


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.


Steve Peerman
gypca...@comcast.net 

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover."
    attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his
having written this.




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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cavers

[Lee H. Skinner]

Thanks, John.


We now have a dozen creative entries (maybe more from Texas as I just 
get the daily digest every morning):



Breakdown        Katherine Arens
Caveat                Penny Boston
Cavalcade          Steve Peerman
Cascade         George Veni
Clump                Mimi Jasek
Clunk                  Jerry Atkinson
Column              Lee Skinner
Descent              Kathy Peerman
Formation John Cochran
Giggle             Jerry Atkinson
Pack                    Mike Mansur
Stash                   Linda Starr


Lee


On 4/23/2021 8:48 PM, John Cochran wrote:


it is obviously a "formation" of cavers

cheers
John

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 6:50 PM Linda Starr > wrote:


Cavalcade is too hard to say, though I like the alliteration.  How
about one syllable?  It’s a bit too militaristic.
Linda Starr 


On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:51 PM Steve Peerman
mailto:gypca...@comcast.net>> wrote:

Lee,
In order to preserve the alliteration, how about a “cavalcade”
of cavers?



On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Lee H. Skinner
mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote:

What do you call a collection of cavers?  There are gaggles
of geese, pods of whales and murders of crows. What term
would do justice to the special nature of cavers?   I once
suggested a *column of cavers*, as cave teams usually go
single-file when traversing (especially well protected) cave
passages.  Does anyone have a better idea?


Lee Skinner


-- 
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Google Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National
Speleological Society" group.
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.


Steve Peerman
gypca...@comcast.net 

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw
off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the
trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his
having written this.




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.

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