[Texascavers] El Malpais
Cibola Beacon, Grants New Mexico Paper CIBOLA COUNTY - Allegedly, Sandy Franklin, 51, of San Rafael, arranged for the shotgun, or shotguns, used in the murder of Fernando Enriquez to be hidden in a shed at a Franklin family lake house, located at #7 Kym Drive in Bluewater. Franklin is the mother of Bryce Franklin, 23, of San Rafael, one of the two suspects in the murder of Enriquez. Clifford Bearden, 20, of Grants, is the other. Allegedly, Bryce Franklin and Bearden forcefully took Enriquez from his Albuquerque apartment at the end of October or early November and ultimately killed him and threw his body in a cave in the El Malpais National Monument. Officials found Enriquez' body on Dec. 1. On Dec. 4, Bryce Franklin and Bearden were charged for the murder of Enriquez following an investigation of fraud and forgery. On Dec. 7, Sandy Franklin was also arrested for her alleged part in the murder case. She was charged with conspiracy to tamper with evidence. It was during a phone discussion between Sandy and Bryce at the Cibola County Detention Center that police learned of the mother's part in the murder case. According to the phone discussion, it was then that police learned that Sandy informed Bryce she had arranged for someone to remove the shotgun, or shotguns, from the storage shed in Milan to the family lake house. The phone conversation went to the extent of Sandy informing Bryce that the items had been cleaned with Windex. In the phone conversation, Sandy told Bryce, You do not have to worry about them anymore. She was later interviewed by state police officials but refused to make any statements, according to the court report. Sandy is being held at the detention center on a $20,000 bond and is expected to appear before Magistrate Judge Larry Diaz on Dec. 18 at approximately 10 a.m. Sandy, a teacher, turned in her resignation from San Rafael Elementary School on Dec. 5. She had been a teacher at the small school for approximately 10 years.
[Texascavers] El Malpais
Cibola Beacon, Grants New Mexico Paper CIBOLA COUNTY - Allegedly, Sandy Franklin, 51, of San Rafael, arranged for the shotgun, or shotguns, used in the murder of Fernando Enriquez to be hidden in a shed at a Franklin family lake house, located at #7 Kym Drive in Bluewater. Franklin is the mother of Bryce Franklin, 23, of San Rafael, one of the two suspects in the murder of Enriquez. Clifford Bearden, 20, of Grants, is the other. Allegedly, Bryce Franklin and Bearden forcefully took Enriquez from his Albuquerque apartment at the end of October or early November and ultimately killed him and threw his body in a cave in the El Malpais National Monument. Officials found Enriquez' body on Dec. 1. On Dec. 4, Bryce Franklin and Bearden were charged for the murder of Enriquez following an investigation of fraud and forgery. On Dec. 7, Sandy Franklin was also arrested for her alleged part in the murder case. She was charged with conspiracy to tamper with evidence. It was during a phone discussion between Sandy and Bryce at the Cibola County Detention Center that police learned of the mother's part in the murder case. According to the phone discussion, it was then that police learned that Sandy informed Bryce she had arranged for someone to remove the shotgun, or shotguns, from the storage shed in Milan to the family lake house. The phone conversation went to the extent of Sandy informing Bryce that the items had been cleaned with Windex. In the phone conversation, Sandy told Bryce, You do not have to worry about them anymore. She was later interviewed by state police officials but refused to make any statements, according to the court report. Sandy is being held at the detention center on a $20,000 bond and is expected to appear before Magistrate Judge Larry Diaz on Dec. 18 at approximately 10 a.m. Sandy, a teacher, turned in her resignation from San Rafael Elementary School on Dec. 5. She had been a teacher at the small school for approximately 10 years.
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
In the not so far off future Genetically modified, WNS resistant bats fluttering around the countrysides and cities. But who knew that WNS resistance also activated the GIGANTIC-ISM gene 10 generations later? Now tiny insects are no longer enough! They need protein, and there are so many of us soft, plump humans On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com -- *From:* freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On *Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com*wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com -- *From:* Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com *To:* Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM *Subject:* [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.eduhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.orghttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edi...@amcs-pubs.orgor sa...@amcs-pubs.orghttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.comhttp://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-h...@texascavers.com -- Ron Rutherford Microsoft SQL Server DBA/Developer
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Hi Andy. I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but it's more about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is recommending closing access to caves in their lands, in California, Lava Beds National Monument is rewriting its general plan and considering excluding caving (and there's pretty much nothing else to do there other than go into lava tubes). In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public lands, but in the western US is the other way around, so things like this would have a big impact in caving. And of course, the reaction is more Oh, man, I won't be able to go caving and I really like caving! but I agree that they are just blanket measures, extreme measures, so that the agencies err on the side of caution. If a cave in a specific park gets WNS, then the park manager will have to answer why he didn't do more, so restricting all access brings him some safety. Not that I support this, but I guess that's why it's being done. - Fofo Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 : Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com *From:* Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
I agree, Fofo. Better to err on the side of caution than to have the phrase Do-Nothing Dumbass carved in your headstone. We can bitch about closures all we want but closures are not necessarily permanent, extinction is. If niche modeling and other studies show that Western states have nothing to worry about, then temporary closures will have been a small cost to have paid. As a caver, I am not in favor of losing acess to caves but, as a biologist, I am willing to put my personal preferences on the back burner until we have a better idea of what we are dealing with. Ciao, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Fofo gonza...@msu.edu To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:06:20 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Hi Andy. I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but it's more about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is recommending closing access to caves in their lands, in California, Lava Beds National Monument is rewriting its general plan and considering excluding caving (and there's pretty much nothing else to do there other than go into lava tubes). In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public lands, but in the western US is the other way around, so things like this would have a big impact in caving. And of course, the reaction is more Oh, man, I won't be able to go caving and I really like caving! but I agree that they are just blanket measures, extreme measures, so that the agencies err on the side of caution. If a cave in a specific park gets WNS, then the park manager will have to answer why he didn't do more, so restricting all access brings him some safety. Not that I support this, but I guess that's why it's being done. - Fofo Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 : Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com *From:* Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures. --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 12:48 PM Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least
RE: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Yeah, Other than drug cartels, beheadings, kidnappings, and random shootings, it's a great place to go! Mark From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:19 PM To: Andy Gluesenkamp Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures.
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
�Hola! TL;DR: For 99.99% of the people, it still is. I spent some time in September in Mexico, for the 200th anniversary of the independence. Unfortunately, I had been following all the news about shootings, killings, etc, etc, in blogs that are dedicated to that. For the very first time, I felt uneasy while walking in the streets. The second day I really noticed it, and I started to wonder why. What happened that was making me feel that way? I thought about all the news that I had been reading almost exclusively, and how they had affected me. Then I just focused on the people around me. They were not looking left and right, waiting for stray bullets, or staying indoors because of fear. It was just another normal day: families out, enjoying time in the park while kids played football (soccer, of course) on the lawn, couples walking on the street, friends buying tacos on a street stand, deliveries being made, carts selling Mexican flags (for the independence day celebrations), etc. If all you read about a place is the equivalent of the Police newspaper section, you'll have a very different impression of it than the impression you would get by reading also the other sections of the newspaper. I'm listening now in the mornings (via internet) Mexican newscasts, so I hear about a recent event that was held to get donations for building hospitals and treatment centers for kids, about a golf tournament organized by Lorena Ochoa, about Telmex opening a high technology center where people can go and use super fast internet connections and the latest computers to do research, etc. I'm not trying to minimize the current situation in Mexico, I know (and everybody knows) that it's something serious and worrying. But I'll be going back to Mexico for Christmas and New Years soon, and you know? I can't wait! Take care, - Fofo On 10/12/10 13:20, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Yeah, Other than drug cartels, beheadings, kidnappings, and random shootings, it�s a great place to go! Mark *From:*freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Friday, December 10, 2010 2:19 PM *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] El Malpais
No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] El Malpais
When do y'all think Carlsbad will be closed? There's a scary thought. Mark -Original Message- From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 2:04 PM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and other surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats. Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies. Stating that nothing can be done is giving up to soon. You may be correct that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is valuable, especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon like WNS. I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria. Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the collection before it was turned to ashes? Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's no real justification for it. My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things play out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] El Malpais lava tubes
Email me, as well, as we've been interested in going there. Better yet, post it here, as gas mileage talk and above ground/underground caves talk seems to have run its course. Later, Mark From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:17 AM To: Texas Cavers Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais lava tubes Has anyone been caving in the lava tubes at El Malpais National Monument in northern New Mexico. I'll be up there with a group of folks and I noted that they have a number of wild lava tubes that are open to the public. Anyone have any information on the caves. Email offline if you wish. Thanks, Geary Schindel
