[Texascavers] Re: cave closures
I don't think the feds are worried about law suits, except possibly in the cases where federally endangered bats are involved. Endangered species are the only ones they are legally obliged to protect, and many of those sites are already protected. I think it is political. People want them to be seen as doing something, and this is something public they can do with little expense. Cavers are not much of a constituency, so our protests go largely unnoticed. This kind of overreaction is typical whenever public agencies and politicians are up against something over which they have no control, but where they are expected to act anyway. Of course it all becomes a farce when they continue to allow commercial caves to operate. Money and politics almost always trump logic. :-( Mark Minton At 11:39 AM 8/10/2010, Brian Vauter wrote: Mark, Do you think the Feds are also not letting up on their policy for fear of lawsuits from environmental groups? On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Mark Minton wrote: This is essentially what happened here in Virginia. Initially there was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving, but then people realized that cavers were the eyes and ears on and under the ground that provided real-time info on how the bats were doing. The policy soon changed to allowing caving with decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the USFWS never relaxed their caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any time soon - they are the most remote from cavers and the most impenetrable. Fortunately for us that affects relatively few of the caves most of us visit regularly. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
[Texascavers] Re: cave closures
Mark, Do you think the Feds are also not letting up on their policy for fear of lawsuits from environmental groups? On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Mark Minton wrote: > This is essentially what happened here in Virginia. Initially > there was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving, but then people realized that > cavers were the eyes and ears on and under the ground that provided > real-time info on how the bats were doing. The policy soon changed to > allowing caving with decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the > USFWS never relaxed their caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any > time soon - they are the most remote from cavers and the most impenetrable. > Fortunately for us that affects relatively few of the caves most of us visit > regularly. > >
[Texascavers] Re: cave closures
This is essentially what happened here in Virginia. Initially there was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving, but then people realized that cavers were the eyes and ears on and under the ground that provided real-time info on how the bats were doing. The policy soon changed to allowing caving with decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the USFWS never relaxed their caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any time soon - they are the most remote from cavers and the most impenetrable. Fortunately for us that affects relatively few of the caves most of us visit regularly. Mark Minton At 11:56 AM 8/9/2010, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: About all I can come up with is that we need to "deputize" the Texas caving community to help us document and monitor bat populations. This is has been my mantra in every internal WNS meeting here at TPWD. That is more-or-less the opposite of closing caves and is an opinion shared by other members of the WNS team. Unfortunately, folks want to seize on the idea that "The Man" is blindly seeking to take away their caving priviledges. Not the case here in TX. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com --- On Mon, 8/9/10, Mark Minton wrote: Agencies do it because they feel like they have to do _something_, and at the moment that's about all they can come up with. :-( Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave closures
I would love to document and monitor the bats... while they are among us . On 8/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: > About all I can come up with is that we need to "deputize" the Texas caving > community to help us document and monitor bat populations. This is has been > my mantra in every internal WNS meeting here at TPWD. That is more-or-less > the opposite of closing caves and is an opinion shared by other members of > the WNS team. Unfortunately, folks want to seize on the idea that "The Man" > is blindly seeking to take away their caving priviledges. Not the case here > in TX. > > Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. > 700 Billie Brooks Drive > Driftwood, Texas 78619 > (512) 799-1095 > a...@gluesenkamp.com > > --- On Mon, 8/9/10, Mark Minton wrote: > > Agencies do it because they feel like they have to do _something_, and at > the moment that's about all they can come up with. :-( > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave closures
I've attended a couple of the meetings, and Andy is correct. Logan . Andy Gluesenkamp wrote: About all I can come up with is that we need to "deputize" the Texas caving community to help us document and monitor bat populations. This is has been my mantra in every internal WNS meeting here at TPWD. That is more-or-less the opposite of closing caves and is an opinion shared by other members of the WNS team. Unfortunately, folks want to seize on the idea that "The Man" is blindly seeking to take away their caving priviledges. Not the case here in TX. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com --- On *Mon, 8/9/10, Mark Minton //* wrote: Agencies do it because they feel like they have to do _something_, and at the moment that's about all they can come up with. :-( - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave closures
About all I can come up with is that we need to "deputize" the Texas caving community to help us document and monitor bat populations. This is has been my mantra in every internal WNS meeting here at TPWD. That is more-or-less the opposite of closing caves and is an opinion shared by other members of the WNS team. Unfortunately, folks want to seize on the idea that "The Man" is blindly seeking to take away their caving priviledges. Not the case here in TX. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com --- On Mon, 8/9/10, Mark Minton wrote: Agencies do it because they feel like they have to do _something_, and at the moment that's about all they can come up with. :-(
[Texascavers] Re: cave closures
John Brooks said: >But I am still opposed to reactionary cave closures; because I do not think it makes any sense. What is to stop an infected bat from flying from one colony to another? Are they going to close the bat caves to bats too? Is there scientific proof that closure stops the spread of WNS? Nothing stops bats from flying from colony to colony, and they do it regularly - more often than I would have expected. And there is no proof that closing caves to people has done anything to limit the spread of WNS. On the other hand, there _is_ proof that bats spread it because it has shown up in caves and mines that have been gated and off-limits to people for years. Closing hibernacula and maternity caves is probably a smart move, if only because human activities might disturb the bats, whether or not it introduces WNS. And as John and others have pointed out, those don't tend to be caves we want to visit regularly anyway. But blanket closures make no sense and are entirely unjustified. Agencies do it because they feel like they have to do _something_, and at the moment that's about all they can come up with. :-( Mark Minton Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
