Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
John, you need to find an app for your iPhone to teleport BBQ from Brady! - Pete On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:23 AM, John Brooks wrote: Well Rudys or not.the break even for that convention like many others was a very narrow window.at 105.the convention made money. The late choice of Rudys was made when the other catering arrangements proved more expensive..due to excessive transport charges from Austin. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Joe Ranzau wrote: Oh, come now... Bizarre is not one of the many adjetives I would use to describe Ron. (if my memory is correct) I also think it had to do with catering Rudy's BBQ. Not cheap. Stefan et al make damn tastey food at the right caver price. Joe On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:43 AM, John Brooks wrote: The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/ 100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a partial refund? =
RE: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
All, regarding food and the communal meal at the last few caving get-togethers, all I can say is that Stefan and his CCC (Caving Cooking Crew) have been an absolute godsend! I have yet to leave an event that Stefan and Co. have catered hungry and the food has always been plentiful, tasty, ready on time, varied, and a good opportunity for cavers of all types to pitch in to prepare and serve the food and to make/renew acquaintances with other cavers. Not to mention, a source of good photos for The TEXAS CAVER! As with all gatherings involving large amounts of food and individuals, it's not about the food. It's about bringing all together to enjoy each others company! Once again, Stefan has agreed to cater the Spring Convention and will be looking for volunteers. Cavers and TSA are blessed to have this excellent resource that takes an incredible amount of time and effort that most of us never see, and Stefan and Crew continue to provide a superior service and to help us officers to keep the TSA in the black. I'll leave the rest of the Convention announcements to our lovely and lively Vice-Chair Elect, Ellie, but, suffice to say, her upcoming announcement should please young and chronologically-challenged cavers alike! Thanks! Mark - TSA Chair
Re: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
Sorry, I was emailing while driving (I know...) My point was not so much that Rudy's was the problem, as is catering in general. Crash had the same problem with expensive food at Ft. M. and Jacquie had the same problem at Albert. That being said, unlike the world according to Kunath, a good number of folks like the convenience and experience of the communal meal. Joe On Dec 3, 2009 9:23am, John Brooks wrote: Well Rudys or not.the break even for that convention like many others was a very narrow window.at 105.the convention made money. The late choice of Rudys was made when the other catering arrangements proved more expensive..due to excessive transport charges from Austin. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Joe Ranzau jran...@gmail.com> wrote: Oh, come now... Bizarre is not one of the many adjetives I would use to describe Ron. (if my memory is correct) I also think it had to do with catering Rudy's BBQ. Not cheap. Stefan et al make damn tastey food at the right caver price. Joe On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:43 AM, John Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" carl.kun...@suddenlink.net> wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was of
Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
Well Rudys or not.the break even for that convention like many others was a very narrow window.at 105.the convention made money. The late choice of Rudys was made when the other catering arrangements proved more expensive..due to excessive transport charges from Austin. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Joe Ranzau wrote: Oh, come now... Bizarre is not one of the many adjetives I would use to describe Ron. (if my memory is correct) I also think it had to do with catering Rudy's BBQ. Not cheap. Stefan et al make damn tastey food at the right caver price. Joe On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:43 AM, John Brooks wrote: The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a partial refund? ===Carl Kunath (Attending since 1962)
Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
Oh, come now... Bizarre is not one of the many adjetives I would use to describe Ron. (if my memory is correct) I also think it had to do with catering Rudy's BBQ. Not cheap. Stefan et al make damn tastey food at the right caver price. Joe On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:43 AM, John Brooks wrote: The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a partial refund? ===Carl Kunath (Attending since 1962)
Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
Oopsto continue The knox ranch was an expensive location. And to use the building a second day would have cost more. We choose the site because we thought Texas Cavers would enjoy a weeekend at Knox Ranch. 2. The attendance was low that year. And in my experience, attendance was unpredictable.with very thin margins on profit or loss. Apparently the TCC scheduled the cave day for the same weekend. 3. Catering a meal is expensive. The days of 6 dollars a head BBQ are gone. We were struggling to find anything less expensive. Finding Cavers willing to cook was a stroke of brillance and a great use of volunteer resourses. 4. Cavers are cheap. It is always a struggle to juggle all the impossible costs and numerous requirementsand not inconvenience anyone by making them drive too far. 5, Cavers attend convention for s variety of reasons. Some like the programs. Some like to see friends.denying the existence of a variety of reasons for attending makes no sense. Some things change and others don't Sent from my iPhone On Dec 3, 2009, at 6:43 AM, John Brooks wrote: The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the ha
Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention did not break even. The causes of being over budget were: 1. The Knox Ranch was expensive Sent from my iPhone On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath" wrote: Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a partial refund? ===Carl Kunath (Attending since 1962)
[Texascavers] Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are thought-provoking and a bit amusing. First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically. Look at this map http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups (we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio, and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston, Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland -- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees. David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling, kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever. The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements. There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group. The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations. Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is unpredictable. The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead. There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons. There should be "crowd control." Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground -- at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently, some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the worst I have ever seen in this regard. Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities and choice of venues is far simpler. The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 -- about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a partial refund? ===Carl Kunath (Attending since 1962)
